Defund the Police?

[Chef Jim]

5 minutes ago, Margarita said:

correction: I acknowledged it was an insult nowhere did I type I was offended big difference  twin sons from different mothers  another kreskin in the house. 

Point taken and I stand corrected.  But being referred to as Orwellian is an insult?  Oooookay. 

[snafu]

2 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

Localism.  
 

Sheriffs and deputies.

 

Private security.

 

Abolition of all gun laws.

 

Neighborhood defense.

 

Not the thread for this though.

 

I think one neighborhood should defend their adjacent neighborhood, and on and on.

It would prevent communities from becoming too insular. 

Since there’s no other thread, I figure I’d just put this here.

 

 

[reddogblitz]

17 hours ago, GregPersons said:

"Defund" is still too nice. This is just focused on budget. Cops don't realize we're letting them off easy right now, and they're pushing their luck. "Abolish" is also too nice. 

 

First of all, Defund just makes plain sense. Look at ANY POLICE BUDGET. They are ridiculous. This is taxpayer money for morons who don't have soldier training to pretend they're in Call of Duty on whoever they can get away with, specifically Black people. Often explicitly coded into the marching orders, and always implicitly. The conversation needs to start from 0 and work up from there to what is actually necessary.

 

We don't need to negotiate down from 300 gazillion. Basic negotiation tactic. And look at what they're offering. LA's mayor took out a 300 million or something but the budget is still near the trillions; whatever the numbers, look it up, it's preposterously inflated, everywhere. 

 

The other thing, is that -- again -- this conversation is only about budget. When we talk about removing police immunity, then it's time to start talking about "Imprison the police."

 

Because if held to the same laws, if held accountable as much as they've done to others — hooo boy.  Imagine suing a cop for assault and winning. That's half of reparations right there in those settlements.

 

So you are a fiscal conservative?

[reddogblitz]

13 hours ago, GregPersons said:

"The War on Drugs" is exhibit A, and the fact that marijuana is now legal, but there are still hundreds or thousands, a horrifying amount of Black/POC Americans still imprisoned, even in states where it's legal, and the group profiting from the legalization is White people.

 

marijuana is far from legal in all states.

 

in fact the D nominee for president wants to keep it that way. 

[B-Man]

 

‘POUNCE ALERT’: Newsweek writer reports that Republicans pounced on ‘Defund the Police’ movement in hearing

 

 

 

 

[Beast]

3 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

Localism.  
 

Sheriffs and deputies.

 

Private security.

 

Abolition of all gun laws.

 

Neighborhood defense.

 

Not the thread for this though.

So, ummmm, do you think private security and neighborhood defense won’t result in any corruption or brutality or that will be a thing of the past?
 

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 minute ago, Beast said:

So, ummmm, do you think private security and neighborhood defense won’t result in any corruption or brutality or that will be a thing of the past?
 

If you’re rich it will be like late 1700s, early 1800s Bow Street Runners.  If you are poor, it is gonna either be like the Mafia or the Mexican drug cartels. ?‍♀️

 

 

[Beast]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

If you’re rich it will be like late 1700s, early 1800s Bow Street Runners.  If you are poor, it is gonna either be like the Mafia or the Mexican drug cartels. ?‍♀️

 

 

The takeover in Seattle? They are already demanding money from business owners to “protect” their businesses.

 

It is going to be chaos and the Leftist, Progressive agenda will be exposed.

[B-Man]

 

 

INCONVENIENT NUMBERS: 

 

Repudiate the Anti-Police Narrative. 

 

In testimony to Congress, Heather Mac Donald presents the facts on police and race — including the statistics that the Washington Post has retroactively altered to fit the current narrative.

 

 

 

 

[Sig1Hunter]

54 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

INCONVENIENT NUMBERS: 

 

Repudiate the Anti-Police Narrative. 

 

In testimony to Congress, Heather Mac Donald presents the facts on police and race — including the statistics that the Washington Post has retroactively altered to fit the current narrative.

 

 

 

 

Excellent article. I have Heather’s book “The War on Cops” , and enjoyed the tremendous amount of research she put into what she coined as The Ferguson Effect. Her viewpoint is even, fair, and fact based. I appreciate you sharing that. 

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

So, ummmm, do you think private security and neighborhood defense won’t result in any corruption or brutality or that will be a thing of the past?
 

Only if he can abolish human nature at the same time. 

[JetsFan20]

It’s a very odd situation on the surface. It seems “defunding” the police coincides with putting political pressure on departments to withdraw from their union (see Camden and Minneapolis).

 

Traditional Democrats are going to be pro-union and police unions have a long history of funding democratic campaigns. 

[TakeYouToTasker]

9 hours ago, Margarita said:

no Kreskin wasn't an insult it was an observation..he was a "mentalist" something you pretend to be.

 

He may have been a dick too then  you'd have that in  common with him but I cant speak to that .. he may or may not have been one....Now that is both an observation AND an insult TWOFER

 

How''s that sand pounding going MENSA? Now that's not an insult or an observation,.... that's a sneer,  insult AND a joke. TRIFECTA

 

Glad we cleared that up. Back on ignore you go. 

 

 

I’m at the point that I’m actually embarrassed for you.

 

You’re the reason that the “women are like children” stereotype exists.

[Westside]

14 hours ago, Margarita said:

to reiterate, this whole "define defund" with its dictionary definitions being quoted as gospel needed to be debunked and I hope by now it has. saying the majority  want police "defunded"  supposedly to leave anarchy in its wake is baloney. Removing all forms of protection from lawlessness in my view makes zero sense practically as well as philosophically. The fact that the word "defund" was jumped on as meaning remove all police functions is ans was ludicrous. Argue if you must that is what most want and I will disagree strongly.

Are we coming up with a new meaning for the word defund? 

I always believed say what you mean and mean what you say. Anything else is just a play on words. 

[billsfan1959]

12 hours ago, Sig1Hunter said:

I’m well versed on LTC Grossman and have read both On Combat and On Killing. They are very interesting, and provide a TON of evidence to back up his point of view. 
 

The sheepdog metaphor doesn’t say, to me, “only I can protect you”. I actually quoted an excerpt from it in a different thread. I believe it is important, and it is accurate. Have you actually read it? Or better yet, read any of Grossmans books? If not, I suggest you do so you can make up your own mind about what he is saying, instead of taking someone else’s word for it.

 

11 hours ago, Sig1Hunter said:

To further elaborate on the specific portion of the essay (which wasn’t his, actually. He quoted it as told by someone else to him) that you referred to, and actually was the same portion I quoted in a different thread.

 

He isn’t saying that only cops are sheepdogs. There are plenty of sheepdog civilians, and unfortunately there are some sheep cops. The metaphor is basically saying that evil exists (the wolf). There are sheep (people that don’t believe the evil exists, are far removed from it, or just don’t believe it will ever effect them), and there are people that choose to believe evil exists and are willing to stand between the sheep and the wolf - with their life, if necessary (the sheepdog). Grossman expresses that it’s ok to be a sheep. A lot of people are sheep, and they live without a lot of stress because they are oblivious to the dangers around them. Being a sheep isn’t a bad thing...until the wolf shows up. When the wolf shows up, the sheep better find a sheepdog. Again, that doesn’t just mean the cops..or, the military. Your neighbor might be a sheepdog. You might be one. Would you give your life for your family? If yes, then you are their sheepdog. Grossman defines a sheepdog as someone with a capacity for violence and a concern for his fellow man. One willing to put themselves in peril for someone else. A wolf is someone with a capacity for violence, and no concern for their fellow man. A sheep is someone who just mosies along nibbling at the grass without a care in the world, except for themselves. The sheepdog looks like the wolf because they both have a capacity for violence (big fangs). One uses it to destroy the wolf, the other uses it to destroy the sheep. Grossman explicity states that any sheepdog that harms a sheep must be punished and removed - that’s the only way for our system to work. Sheep are people who would freeze or run when they would be forced to act to help someone else.

We need more sheepdogs. In uniform, and out of it.

 

That’s just my view on the essay.

 

 

Good summary and spot on. A couple of additional points.

 

First, and you touched upon this, Grossman never talks about a dynamic like "everybody out there hates you and we (police community) are the only ones who love you," in which police are pitted against citizens - and to turn what Grossman writes into that message is a complete distortion. The idea that being in law enforcement is the equivalent of being in an abusive relationship tells me the author of that article doesn't know much about the various and complex dynamics of abusive relationships.

 

Second, what the author of that article failed to mention about Grossman's sheep metaphor is that the sheepdog never harms the sheep. That is what separates him/her from the wolves. Once you cross that line, you are the very thing you took an oath to protect people against. EDIT: I see you did mention this as well.

 

@Capco thanks for the discussion. I have read that article several more times and I have serious questions about the validity of a number of claims and the overarching agenda of his article. If, in fact, he was an officer and behaved how he described, then that was the kind of person he was when he took the job. Law enforcement did not create it, it just gave him an arena and the authority to express what was already inside of him. And that is exactly the kind of people that need to be weeded out. 

 

As I said before, I am not denying their existence. I am not even denying pockets of the kind of culture he described. As long as there are human beings, a small percentage of them will always find ways to prey on the rest. No other segment of society has found a way to completely rid themselves of those kinds of people and law enforcement is no different. There was a time in LE when that kind of behavior and culture was even more prevalent. However, like the rest of society, LE has continued to evolve for the better. They are better trained, better educated, and more diversified than they have ever been. All they can do is continue to find ways to continue to improve and reduce the number of officers like Chauvin, and and their ability to harm the people they are supposed to protect.

 

Just remember, there are 50+ million contacts between LE Officers and citizens (over the age of 16) and 10+ million arrests each year in this country. 99.99% are interactions without any issues at all. It doesn't excuse or minimize when there are issues or, God forbid, injuries or deaths because of police misconduct. It just means there are a lot of good men and women out there doing their best to uphold the oath they took.

 

Again, this is all just my opinion based on my own experiences.

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by billsfan1959

[The Guy In Pants]

7 hours ago, Beast said:

The takeover in Seattle? They are already demanding money from business owners to “protect” their businesses.

 

It is going to be chaos and the Leftist, Progressive agenda will be exposed.

You always let the problem get to a point at which your solving it is proven as justified.

[4merper4mer]

7 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

Only if he can abolish human nature at the same time. 

Why abolish it when we can just ignore it?  Look at how well that has worked out for everyone living under the glory of Marxism.

[B-Man]

 

 

WAIT, THAT’S NOT THE NARRATIVE:

 

 Eight in 10 want police funding increased or maintained. 

 

“The American public overwhelmingly wants funding for police to be increased or maintained, according to a new poll that shows people having strong support for first responders.”

 

 

 

This is consistent with the YouGov poll I linked the other day.

 

[TakeYouToTasker]

12 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

If you’re rich it will be like late 1700s, early 1800s Bow Street Runners.  If you are poor, it is gonna either be like the Mafia or the Mexican drug cartels. ?‍♀️

 

 

No it wouldn’t.  For lots of reasons.  First of which is that the police are far from the only thing I’d see abolished.

[B-Man]

 

UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION, ANYWAY: 

 

Joe Biden and the NAACP Kick ‘Defund the Police’ to the Curb.

 

 

 

 

[Chef Jim]

6 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION, ANYWAY: 

 

Joe Biden and the NAACP Kick ‘Defund the Police’ to the Curb.

 

 

 

 

Now the buzzword is “reimagining.” 

 

Don’t get me wrong this is a better word to start with than “Defund” but Walt Disney would be so proud. 
 

 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[muppy]

5 hours ago, westside2 said:

Are we coming up with a new meaning for the word defund? 

I always believed say what you mean and mean what you say. Anything else is just a play on words. 

you're right westside, Defund the police remove money from funding police. Period. Exclamation point. you're right Right RIGHT.  That's the whole issue right?  What happens next means nothing right? I've proven myself right on a message board the dictionary says what it means and beyond that who cares ITS WHAT WAS POSTED ON THE SIGN THAT MATTERS. signed sealed delivered. SMH

 

yeah Im snarking at you all while you argue semantics and knowledge about what a sign used in a protest rally really means.....

 

I bring up what the sign says is only the surface message but Im eviscerated for having that opinion. And if you google "what does defunding the police really mean" it explains well beyond the dictionary definition..which I tried to do also. I'll say this one last time ...even if there are a few fringe people whom wish the police eliminated completely devoid of funding  do you honestly think that is mainstream thought but that it would ever happen to that severe extreme? YEP Lets allow a sign to dictate our futures and push that anarchy button to justify it  Because im RIGHT defund means DEFUND OF ALL FUNDING..the sign says so thats what it means to everyone sum total BOOM..Defund.

 

please...... 

 

 

[Chef Jim]

1 minute ago, Margarita said:

you're right westside, Defund the police remove money from funding police. Period. Exclamation point. you're right Right RIGHT.  That's the whole issue right?  What happens next means nothing right? I've proven myself right on a message board the dictionary says what it means and beyond that who cares ITS WHAT WAS POSTED ON THE SIGN THAT MATTERS. signed sealed delivered. SMH

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting regarding the part in bold.  So what does that red octagonal sign with the words STOP mean?  Can I tell the cop and pulled me over for running it that "oh I interpreted it to mean slow down"?  We get your point.  Do you get ours?  If not let me reiterate it.  The word "defund" and what it means to those wanting police reform is being mocked by us.  Why?  Because it has come from hysterical people at protests.  Has it opened a dialog?  Sure, which is good but it was a terrible word to use to start the dialog because of it's actual meaning.  

[BuffaloHokie13]

4 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Interesting regarding the part in bold.  So what does that red octagonal sign with the words STOP mean?  Can I tell the cop and pulled me over for running it that "oh I interpreted it to mean slow down"?  We get your point.  Do you get ours?  If not let me reiterate it.  The word "defund" and what it means to those wanting police reform is being mocked by us.  Why?  Because it has come from hysterical people at protests.  Has it opened a dialog?  Sure, which is good but it was a terrible word to use to start the dialog because of it's actual meaning.  

Well actually, stop really means check all directions for conflicting traffic, both vehicular and pedestrian, before proceeding. If you can do that before physically coming to a complete stop then you're all good! It's just too many words to fit on the sign and it would require a higher understanding of the English language than STOP, which would further oppress immigrants - legal or otherwise. 

[Chef Jim]

1 minute ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Well actually, stop really means check all directions for conflicting traffic, both vehicular and pedestrian, before proceeding. If you can do that before physically coming to a complete stop then you're all good! It's just too many words to fit on the sign and it would require a higher understanding of the English language than STOP, which would further oppress immigrants - legal or otherwise. 

 

***** lawyers.................

[BuffaloHokie13]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 

***** lawyers.................

As an engineer, I agree wholeheartedly 

[Chandemonium]

5 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Well actually, stop really means check all directions for conflicting traffic, both vehicular and pedestrian, before proceeding. If you can do that before physically coming to a complete stop then you're all good! It's just too many words to fit on the sign and it would require a higher understanding of the English language than STOP, which would further oppress immigrants - legal or otherwise. 

No, that’s what yield means. Stop means stop.

[Sig1Hunter]

8 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Well actually, stop really means check all directions for conflicting traffic, both vehicular and pedestrian, before proceeding. If you can do that before physically coming to a complete stop then you're all good! It's just too many words to fit on the sign and it would require a higher understanding of the English language than STOP, which would further oppress immigrants - legal or otherwise. 

In my state stop is actually defined as “a complete cessation from movement”.. lol. 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

In my state stop is actually defined as “a complete cessation from movement”.. lol. 

 

Which any high school physics student can tell you is impossible at any temperature above absolute zero, so ...

 

?

[Cinga]

54 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION, ANYWAY: 

 

Joe Biden and the NAACP Kick ‘Defund the Police’ to the Curb.

 

 

 

 

 

wHY ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING WHEN YOU CAN JUST:

Edited June 11, 2020 by Cinga

[Sig1Hunter]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

 

Which any high school physics student can tell you is impossible at any temperature above absolute zero, so ...

 

?

Dude, I would die if someone used that as a defense in court! “Judge, I request the case against the defendant be dismissed!”

[BuffaloHokie13]

21 minutes ago, Chandemonium said:

No, that’s what yield means. Stop means stop.

 

17 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

In my state stop is actually defined as “a complete cessation from movement”.. lol. 

Why do you hate parody?

[Westside]

45 minutes ago, Margarita said:

you're right westside, Defund the police remove money from funding police. Period. Exclamation point. you're right Right RIGHT.  That's the whole issue right?  What happens next means nothing right? I've proven myself right on a message board the dictionary says what it means and beyond that who cares ITS WHAT WAS POSTED ON THE SIGN THAT MATTERS. signed sealed delivered. SMH

 

yeah Im snarking at you all while you argue semantics and knowledge about what a sign used in a protest rally really means.....

 

I bring up what the sign says is only the surface message but Im eviscerated for having that opinion. And if you google "what does defunding the police really mean" it explains well beyond the dictionary definition..which I tried to do also. I'll say this one last time ...even if there are a few fringe people whom wish the police eliminated completely devoid of funding  do you honestly think that is mainstream thought but that it would ever happen to that severe extreme? YEP Lets allow a sign to dictate our futures and push that anarchy button to justify it  Because im RIGHT defund means DEFUND OF ALL FUNDING..the sign says so thats what it means to everyone sum total BOOM..Defund.

 

please...... 

 

 

You mad sis?

[3rdnlng]

48 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

In my state stop is actually defined as “a complete cessation from movement”.. lol. 

It's the point in which the vehicle rocks backwards while in the process of stopping. 

1 hour ago, Margarita said:

you're right westside, Defund the police remove money from funding police. Period. Exclamation point. you're right Right RIGHT.  That's the whole issue right?  What happens next means nothing right? I've proven myself right on a message board the dictionary says what it means and beyond that who cares ITS WHAT WAS POSTED ON THE SIGN THAT MATTERS. signed sealed delivered. SMH

 

yeah Im snarking at you all while you argue semantics and knowledge about what a sign used in a protest rally really means.....

 

I bring up what the sign says is only the surface message but Im eviscerated for having that opinion. And if you google "what does defunding the police really mean" it explains well beyond the dictionary definition..which I tried to do also. I'll say this one last time ...even if there are a few fringe people whom wish the police eliminated completely devoid of funding  do you honestly think that is mainstream thought but that it would ever happen to that severe extreme? YEP Lets allow a sign to dictate our futures and push that anarchy button to justify it  Because im RIGHT defund means DEFUND OF ALL FUNDING..the sign says so thats what it means to everyone sum total BOOM..Defund.

 

please...... 

 

 

You're spending a lot of time and effort trying to explain away a misuse of the English language. You remind me of the protester carrying the sign that called others "morans". 

[Buffalo_Gal]

1 hour ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

No it wouldn’t.  For lots of reasons.  First of which is that the police are far from the only thing I’d see abolished.

What lots of reasons? In the late 1700s and early 1800s in England you basically had to pay for police services and/or you had to hire your own muscle to keep you safe. After that, it got worse as many would have to stand the cost of the prosecution if you wanted someone who personally harmed you prosecuted for the crime, but I did not mean my comment to go that far. If you took it to that extreme, my apologies as I only meant paying for your own police services (and/or muscle to keep you safe).

The mafia and gangs are also a way to keep someone safe (from other gangs or mafia). Some were pay (mafia got paid to allow you to not get hurt and your business to go on uninjured), some worked for the mob. The gangs protect you (generic you!) from other gangs.

All of this is, of course, simplistic. There is a history of what happens when you do not have a police force that is "free" for everyone equally under the law.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Buffalo_Gal

[muppy]

1 hour ago, westside2 said:

You mad sis?

no I'm not mad I'm frustrated. WAS. I'm done. Dang those people not writing signs verbalizing every fact or nuance on their premise. Shame on them. Shame on Me thinking any other view is worth considering. Echo chamber yourselves to kingdom come. 

 

DEFUND PPP. lol 

[Westside]

10 minutes ago, Margarita said:

no I'm not mad I'm frustrated. WAS. I'm done. Dang those people not writing signs verbalizing every fact or nuance on their premise. Shame on them. Shame on Me thinking any other view is worth considering. Echo chamber yourselves to kingdom come. 

 

DEFUND PPP. lol 

Don't let it get to you. It's not worth it. You can't change the world. Only yourself. I don't agree with you politically, but we're all human beings. All we can do is practice kindness and forgiveness. ( Not you in particular)

[3rdnlng]

12 minutes ago, Margarita said:

no I'm not mad I'm frustrated. WAS. I'm done. Dang those people not writing signs verbalizing every fact or nuance on their premise. Shame on them. Shame on Me thinking any other view is worth considering. Echo chamber yourselves to kingdom come. 

 

DEFUND PPP. lol 

So, defund the police does not mean take their money away? It means something else? 

[3rdnlng]

2 minutes ago, Jaraxxus said:

 

Trust me friend. This is a road to #windowlickerville that you just don't want to travel down.

Nothing more than shooting a horse with a broken leg.