Defund the Police?

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[Capco]

13 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

To be systemic, it has to be pervasive. That is my point. Not that it doesn't exist, but that it exists in a minority who are characterologically flawed. LE Officers do feel a brotherhood with each other because they share a common bond. It is human nature. It is also human nature to want to believe and protect those you feel close to.

 

With all due respect, did you read the quote?  The guy came into the force wanting to do the right thing, did the right thing in training, then got called out for it instead of action being taken.  If you went through that experience, what would be the lesson that you learned?  Would it be that doing the right thing is what policing is all about?  Or would it be to shut your mouth when it comes to the misconduct of your coworkers?  

 

 

13 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Think of your own life in regard to family and friends. Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in degrading some innocent person for no reason at all? Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in falsely accusing someone of something to get them arrested and sent to jail? Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in physically assaulting someone because of their race or other non-justified reason? Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in  killing someone because of their race or any other non-justified reason? Would you just stand by and not try to stop them from committing any of these acts? Would you lie under oath to protect them for any of these acts? Would you actively cover up any of these acts for them?

 

My guess is most people would say no to most of those questions.

 

That would be my guess too.  But most of those people don't go through training that involves the following, do they?

 

Every police academy is different but all of them share certain features: taught by old cops, run like a paramilitary bootcamp, strong emphasis on protecting yourself more than anyone else. The majority of my time in the academy was spent doing aggressive physical training and watching video after video after video of police officers being murdered on duty.

I want to highlight this: nearly everyone coming into law enforcement is bombarded with dash cam footage of police officers being ambushed and killed. Over and over and over. Colorless VHS mortality plays, cops screaming for help over their radios, their bodies going limp as a pair of tail lights speed away into a grainy black horizon. In my case, with commentary from an old racist cop who used to brag about assaulting Black Panthers.

 

...

 

Once police training has - through repetition, indoctrination, and violent spectacle - promised officers that everyone in the world is out to kill them, the next lesson is that your partners are the only people protecting you. Occasionally, this is even true: I’ve had encounters turn on me rapidly to the point I legitimately thought I was going to die, only to have other officers come and turn the tables.

 

And remember, this particular officer didn't get to choose his training.  It wasn't his personal choice to learn these lessons.  They were taught to him by the system he was joining.  If every police cadet "did the right thing" during their training, this police force wouldn't have a single cop on it. 

 

How is that not pervasive?  

Edited June 10, 2020 by Capco

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

With all due respect, did you read the quote?  The guy came into the force wanting to do the right thing, did the right thing in training, then got called out for it instead of action being taken.  If you went through that experience, what would be the lesson that you learned?  Would it be that doing the right thing is what policing is all about?  Or would it be to shut your mouth when it comes to the misconduct of your coworkers?  

 

I read the entire article. MY opinion is if he came into the force wanting to do the right thing, he would have done it. What he describes is not the experience of the vast majority of officers. You don't become bad, to the degreee we are talking about, if that potential is not already within you..

 

1 minute ago, Capco said:

That would be my guess too.  But most of those people don't go through training that involves the following, do they?

 

Every police academy is different but all of them share certain features: taught by old cops, run like a paramilitary bootcamp, strong emphasis on protecting yourself more than anyone else. The majority of my time in the academy was spent doing aggressive physical training and watching video after video after video of police officers being murdered on duty.

I want to highlight this: nearly everyone coming into law enforcement is bombarded with dash cam footage of police officers being ambushed and killed. Over and over and over. Colorless VHS mortality plays, cops screaming for help over their radios, their bodies going limp as a pair of tail lights speed away into a grainy black horizon. In my case, with commentary from an old racist cop who used to brag about assaulting Black Panthers.

 

Once police training has - through repetition, indoctrination, and violent spectacle - promised officers that everyone in the world is out to kill them, the next lesson is that your partners are the only people protecting you. Occasionally, this is even true: I’ve had encounters turn on me rapidly to the point I legitimately thought I was going to die, only to have other officers come and turn the tables.

 

And remember, this particular officer didn't get to choose his training.  It wasn't his personal choice to learn these lessons.  They were taught to him by the system he was joining.  If every police cadet "did the right thing" in during their training, this police force wouldn't have a single cop on it. 

 

How is that not systemic?  

 

I went through three diffferent academies in my career. There was never an emphasis "that everyone in the world is out to kill" us. The training is typically split between physical fitness (which also includes self defense/how to conduct arrests/ etc), firearms qualification, and classroom (Rules, procedures, the law, etc.). There is an emphasis on self protection, but only from the perspective that it can be a dangerous job and you have to always be prepared.

 

I would also ask @Sig1Hunterwhat his experiences have been.

 

My question to you is, why are you so willing to believe the guy in this article over others who say differently?

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

Now this is something you do not see everyday... Hannity getting talked over.
 

 

[Capco]

8 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

You don't become bad, to the degree we are talking about, if that potential is not already within you..

 

On a fundamental level I disagree with this and maybe that's where some of the disconnect is.  Under the appropriate environmental (read: external) circumstances anyone can be a saint or a sinner.  I have some supporting arguments on this topic if you'd like to discuss it further.  

 

8 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I went through three diffferent academies in my career. There was never an emphasis "that everyone in the world is out to kill" us. The training is typically split between physical fitness (which also includes self defense/how to conduct arrests/ etc), firearms qualification, and classroom (Rules, procedures, the law, etc.). There is an emphasis on self protection, but only from the perspective that it can be a dangerous job and you have to always be prepared.

 

I would also ask @Sig1Hunterwhat his experiences have been.

 

I appreciate you offering your personal experiences.  I was just about to ask Sig to comment here as well lol.  

 

8 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

My question to you is, why are you so willing to believe the guy in this article over others who say differently?

 

I'm not.  I'm listening you as well, aren't I? 

 

So, his experiences are anecdotal.  So are yours.  Each can only be taken with a grain of salt, right?  And yet somehow you think you can speak for the vast majority of officers when you said this:

 

8 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

What he describes is not the experience of the vast majority of officers.

 

Is there something about your life experience that allows you to speak for the vast majority of officers?  

Edited June 10, 2020 by Capco

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, Capco said:

Long (20+ minute) read but worth sharing:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

"American policing is a thick blue tumor strangling the life from our communities and if you don’t believe it when the poor and the marginalized say it, if you don’t believe it when you see cops across the country shooting journalists with less-lethal bullets and caustic chemicals, maybe you’ll believe it when you hear it straight from the pig’s mouth."

 

I don't have 20 minutes but I'll respond to your (asinine quote).  If you feel that way about EVERY police officer I hate for you to find yourself in a situation where you need one.  You've been in an accident.  You need help getting your car out of a ditch.  You're lost in an unfamiliar city and need directions.  You need your noisy neighbors to shut the party down because it's real late and you need to sleep.  I really hate that if any of those things happen to you and the police decide not to help you because who wants help from a "tumor strangling the life out of our communities."  Do you really feel that every police officer is a "tumor strangling the life out of our communities?  Really??

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Are you're in favor of defunding the police, Capco? Or no? If no, what's your suggestion for a solution?

 

I think there's a two pronged approach to address the issue of police brutality and accountability, one on the federal level and one on the local level.

 

Both Republicans and Democrats are working on their own version of bills to address the issues at the federal level. In this election year it will be a miracle if anything happens, but the fact that both parties are working on it says something. 

 

On the local level, if there are localities with black communities that want to reprioritize funding into the community, create new training requirements and create processes of accountability, then that's all right with me. 

 

Total abolishment of the police in the name of a police free society is a pipe dream. Disbanding a specific police force because of their history of corruption and reconstituting a new police department may be the only some communities rebuild trust between the community and the police. 

 

And without being held accountable to anyone else's desires or wishes, it's my hope that as the dust settles from this unrest, police in communities effected by a long history of violence find a way to rebuild trust and work for the communities they protect and serve. 

 

 

[Capco]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I don't have 20 minutes but I'll respond to your (asinine quote).  If you feel that way about EVERY police officer I hate for you to find yourself in a situation where you need one.  You've been in an accident.  You need help getting your car out of a ditch.  You're lost in an unfamiliar city and need directions.  You need your noisy neighbors to shut the party down because it's real late and you need to sleep.  I really hate that if any of those things happen to you and the police decide not to help you because who wants help from a "tumor strangling the life out of our communities."  Do you really feel that every police officer is a "tumor strangling the life out of our communities?  Really??

 

Systemic doesn't mean absolute or unequivocal.  When a disease is systemic that doesn't mean that every single cell involved in the system in question is diseased.

 

Are all cops good?  No.

 

Are all cops bad?  No.

 

I hope that answers your questions.  

[Warren Zevon]

2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

You need help getting your car out of a ditch. 

 

Tow Truck

 

3 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

You're lost in an unfamiliar city and need directions.

 

Google Maps

 

3 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

You need your noisy neighbors to shut the party down because it's real late and you need to sleep.

 

Okay, Chef Karen

 

3 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

I really hate that if any of those things happen to you and the police decide not to help you

 

Life would be okay.

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

On a fundamental level I disagree with this and maybe that's where some of the disconnect is.  Under the appropriate environmental (read: external) circumstances anyone can be a saint or a sinner.  I have some supporting arguments on this topic if you'd like to discuss it further.  

 

I would agree that under the right circumstances many people can commit an act that is out of character. Again, that is situationally driven and specific to each individual. That is different, at least for me, from the type of everyday behavior we are talking or like what we saw with Chauvin.

 

5 minutes ago, Capco said:

So, his experiences are anecdotal.  So are yours.  Each can only be taken with a grain of salt, right?  And yet somehow you think you can speak for the vast majority of officers when you said this:

 

Is there something about your life experience that allows you to speak for the vast majority of officers?  

 

You are right. On their face, my statements really carry no more weight and it is my opinion based on my own experiences. To answer about my life experiences, I will say that I was in a position where I was able to work violent crime task forces for many years. Those task forces were comprised of federal, state, and local officers working the most violent cases in the areas with the highest violent crime rates. During that time, I worked along side hundreds upon hundreds of other LE Officers with literally thousands of contacts with people in high crime areas. At the end of my career, I worked in the analysis of violent crime, particularly offender and victim behaviors. Since my retirement, I have worked for myself as a consultant, working with attorneys in violent crime trials. That spans 35+ years. 

 

It doesn't make me right, it is just the basis of my opinion.

 

Just for the record, I think there are so many ways in which we can continue to improve law enforcement.

 

I also appreciate you being open in your discussions.

[Warren Zevon]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

 

Systemic doesn't mean absolute or unequivocal.  When a disease is systemic that doesn't mean that every single cell involved in the system in question is diseased.

 

Are all cops good?  No.

 

Are all cops bad?  No.

 

I hope that answers your questions.  

 

Obviously but you're talking to Chef jim

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

Systemic doesn't mean absolute or unequivocal.  When a disease is systemic that doesn't mean that every single cell involved in the system in question is diseased.

 

Are all cops good?  No.

 

Are all cops bad?  Yes

 

I hope that answers your questions.  

 

I have changed your answers above based on your quote from the article. Why did you feel it necessary to post that particular quote if you didn't believe it? 

[Capco]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I would agree that under the right circumstances many people can commit an act that is out of character. Again, that is situationally driven and specific to each individual. That is different, at least for me, from the type of everyday behavior we are talking or like what we saw with Chauvin.

 

 

You are right. On their face, my statements really carry no more weight and it is my opinion based on my own experiences. To answer about my life experiences, I will say that I was in a position where I was able to work violent crime task forces for many years. Those task forces were comprised of federal, state, and local officers working the most violent cases in the areas with the highest violent crime rates. During that time, I worked along side hundreds upon hundreds of other LE Officers with literally thousands of contacts with people in high crime areas. At the end of my career, I worked in the analysis of violent crime, particularly offender and victim behaviors. Since my retirement, I have worked for myself as a consultant, working with attorneys in violent crime trials. That spans 35+ years. 

 

It doesn't make me right, it is just the basis of my opinion.

 

Just for the record, I think there are so many ways in which we can continue to improve law enforcement.

 

I also appreciate you being open in your discussions.

 

Excellent post.  Thank you again for your contributions to this discussion and, especially, your service to your community.  You definitely sound like you were a fine police officer.  

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

Obviously but you're talking to Chef jim

 

Do you agree with the part of the article he quoted?  

[Warren Zevon]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 

Do you agree with the part of the article he quoted?  

 

I've retired from playing 20 questions with Chef Jim. Sorry, bud.

[Capco]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 

I have changed your answers above based on your quote from the article. Why did you feel it necessary to post that particular quote if you didn't believe it? 

 

It was an eye-catching quote from the introduction that summarizes a lot of the essay.  I just wanted to use the essay as a basis for discussion.  

 

There was nothing more to it than that my guy.  But feel free to keep putting words in my mouth.  If you think you have me all figured out, good for you I guess.  

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

It was an eye-catching quote from the introduction that summarizes a lot of the essay.  I just wanted to use the essay as a basis for discussion.  

 

There was nothing more to it than that my guy.  But feel free to keep putting words in my mouth.  If you think you have me all figured out, good for you I guess.  

 

I find it very hard to believe that you used that quote from a 20 minute read unless it resonated with you.  Eye catching indeed.  

6 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

I've retired from playing 20 questions with Chef Jim. Sorry, bud.

 

Because you're afraid the answers to these questions may shine a light on what kind of a person you really are?  No worries.  If you're afraid to answer them I understand.  

[muppy]

this was posted on another boards political section regarding this issue and I found it very succinct and madea great deal of sense worthy of a repost here

 

Quote

The slogan 'defund the police' isn't accurate, its being completely misconstrued, Camden NJ never defunded, but they did close down the whole shebang and start all over again, so defund does not mean no police, that's crazy, defund means making the force more a service based community service who more answer to their community and a BOD from the community rather than to politicians

The key here was taking 50% of the funds usually directed to the police and instead re-allocating it to 911 and or other community services, the idea being that alot of calls coming in didn't require aggressive police action, guns drawn law n order, mosts calls more require a de-escalation, a more gentle approach, especially mental issues calls

I will tell you my police friends agree they get sent out to do alot things they don't have training in, they would prefer not to deal with this calls anymore, in Camden this was addressed

Starting over also eliminated all the usual politics which stop police from self reforming, the union had to also close down shop and start all over again in Camden

Is Camden perfect, probably not, but the more I read about Camden the more I love what they did, it worked, but can it work in other places, it can, but it takes a ton of moving parts to all be on the same page

First everyone admitting there is a problem, and a willingness to accept change, to try something different, remember there are folks out there with agenda's who say systemic racism is a myth, who feel they will lose privledge if the status-quo is not maintained

All I know is I have a ton of empathy for police, its a very difficult job, but my empathy ends when I see military style police beating up on citizens, its a real ***** optic, first I the whole shoot to kill well ask question later thing is outdated, what ever happened to wounding a suspect in the leg? Why are police attacking protesters with batons? Ugly, thats not community based policing, that's violence, and it reeks of FASCISM, nor do I like police involved in actions which escalate, to me to serve and protect, their primary job is to de-escalate

However police serve a very important role in a democracy, we just need to redefine the role, to get back where police treat every citizen equally equally regardless of the colour of their skin, and in time I think alot of us can go back to uber respecting our local police, working with them instead of fearing them, but major reforms are required, a bandaid likely isn't do the trick

just my opinion

 

 

 

[Warren Zevon]

Chef Jim has 20 minutes to talk about the a quote he's misinterpreting but doesn't have 20 minutes to read the article.

 

Chef Jim in a nutshell

 

[Capco]

2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I find it very hard to believe that you used that quote from a 20 minute read unless it resonated with you.  Eye catching indeed.  

 

Believe what you want dude.  Read the exchange between billsfan1959 and myself if you think I'm being disingenuous.