Defund the Police?

[snafu]

On 6/5/2020 at 1:00 PM, Just Joshin' said:

Curious to whom is in favor of defunding the police and the benefits of doing so?  If in favor of this, please help explain why this is better and the outcomes it will produce.  Any negative impacts?

 

I'm in favor of Creative destruction in this case.  I don't know whether "defund" is an accurate way of putting it, because from what I have read, it sounds like they're talking about restructuring.  A total police budget wouldn't be eliminated, and "policing" wouldn't go away.

 

I honestly think they should use the slogan "repeal and replace".

 

 

[GregPersons]

2 minutes ago, snafu said:

 

I'm in favor of Creative destruction in this case.  I don't know whether "defund" is an accurate way of putting it, because from what I have read, it sounds like they're talking about restructuring.  A total police budget wouldn't be eliminated, and "policing" wouldn't go away.

 

I honestly think they should use the slogan "repeal and replace".

 

 

 

That is a better slogan, tbh.

 

I like Defund and Abolish and I think they do well to communicate that drastic overhaul is needed; "reform" isn't taking the change needed seriously enough.

 

But yours does communicate things simpler.

[Sig1Hunter]

If you think policing is bad now, just wait until qualified immunity is removed. Contrary to what Greggy thinks, most cops are college educated. What college educated, military background (aka in demand in the private sector) person is going to risk getting sued at every corner whenever they have to take lawful police action? What decent cop is gonna be proactive in taking police action when they have to worry about getting sued at every corner? Greggy likes to make the joke about high school dropouts, but in reality those are going to be the cops of the future if this passes. The people interested in law enforcement with a good resume are going to go into private sector work. More pay, less risk. 

[Buffalo_Gal]

4 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said:

If you think policing is bad now, just wait until qualified immunity is removed. Contrary to what Greggy thinks, most cops are college educated. What college educated, military background (aka in demand in the private sector) person is going to risk getting sued at every corner whenever they have to take lawful police action? What decent cop is gonna be proactive in taking police action when they have to worry about getting sued at every corner? Greggy likes to make the joke about high school dropouts, but in reality those are going to be the cops of the future if this passes. The people interested in law enforcement with a good resume are going to go into private sector work. More pay, less risk. 

Yup, this bill is going to pass, and it is going to change the way cops police.  And in spite of best intentions (hey, I am being generous here on  the intentions), that will not be for the better for the general public.
 

[Numark3]

This country throws out thousands of frivolous lawsuits because of qualified immunity.  Will be funny if it goes away

[Buffalo_Gal]

Pastor Scott bringing the heat, calling defund the police the stupidest thing he's ever heard of from politicians. He's also called it an attempt to garner votes.

Pointing out that defunding will lead to gangs, vigilantism, and mobs.  He's point out what happened in Cleveland (where he lives) when they cut funding.

If anyone wants to know what happens with "defund the police" get this clip of Pastor Scott's congressional testimony. It is eye opening.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Buffalo_Gal

[B-Man]

 

 

BLUE ON BLUE: 

 

In fiery speech, NY police union chief slams media, politicians for “vilifying” cops: “It’s disgusting! It’s disgusting!”

 

 

 

 

 

[B-Man]

 

LAPD: Homicides Up 250% During Past Week of ‘Defund Police’ Peaceful Protests.

 

 

Think of it as a preview of worse things to come.

 

 

 

 

 

[B-Man]

DEFUND the POLICE !

 

 

[Capco]

Long (20+ minute) read but worth sharing:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

"American policing is a thick blue tumor strangling the life from our communities and if you don’t believe it when the poor and the marginalized say it, if you don’t believe it when you see cops across the country shooting journalists with less-lethal bullets and caustic chemicals, maybe you’ll believe it when you hear it straight from the pig’s mouth."

[Deranged Rhino]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

Long (20+ minute) read but worth sharing:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

"American policing is a thick blue tumor strangling the life from our communities and if you don’t believe it when the poor and the marginalized say it, if you don’t believe it when you see cops across the country shooting journalists with less-lethal bullets and caustic chemicals, maybe you’ll believe it when you hear it straight from the pig’s mouth."

 

Are you're in favor of defunding the police, Capco? Or no? If no, what's your suggestion for a solution?

[Capco]

5 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Are you're in favor of defunding the police, Capco? Or no? If no, what's your suggestion for a solution?

 

I'm still in the process of making my decision on that.  It's quite a complicated issue as I'm coming to find out.  

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[billsfan1959]

21 minutes ago, Capco said:

Long (20+ minute) read but worth sharing:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

"American policing is a thick blue tumor strangling the life from our communities and if you don’t believe it when the poor and the marginalized say it, if you don’t believe it when you see cops across the country shooting journalists with less-lethal bullets and caustic chemicals, maybe you’ll believe it when you hear it straight from the pig’s mouth."

 

I have no idea if this particular cop did all that he said he did; however, if he did, he is a POS. It was his own character that caused him to behave the way he did, not LE training. For example:

 

In one paragraph he says, "Sarge called me over to assist him. He was detaining a 70 year old immigrant who spoke no English, who he’d seen picking a coke can out of a trash bin. He ordered me to arrest her for stealing trash. I said, “Sarge, c’mon, she’s an old lady.” He said, “I don’t give a *****. Hook her up, that’s an order.” And… I did. She cried the entire way to the station and all through the booking process. I couldn’t even comfort her because I didn’t speak Spanish. I felt disgusting but I was ordered to make this arrest and I wasn’t willing to lose my job for her."

 

In the very next paragraph he says, "I used to happily hassle the homeless under other circumstances. I researched obscure penal codes so I could arrest people in homeless encampments for lesser known crimes like “remaining too close to railroad property” (369i of the California Penal Code). I used to call it “planting warrant seeds” since I knew they wouldn’t make their court dates and we could arrest them again and again for warrant violations."

 

Either one is disgusted by it or he/she is not. You don't go from "this behavior disgusts me" to "I happily engaged in this behavior."

 

My guess is that he did know other cops who were the same as him and my reply to that is "birds of a feather..." I didn't read anything in that article confirmed systemic racism or even "all cops are bastards. I read about a cop who was a POS and knew some other cops who were similar to him.

 

The saddest part, is that people will read this article, with no verification of anything he wrote and believe every word of it; however, they won't believe the hundreds of thousands of current or retired LE Officers who will say the training they went through was not anything like this guy describes, that they never engaged in this type of behavior, and that, while it certainly exists, it exists in a minority of the LE population - and they are as equally disgusted by it as anyone else.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by billsfan1959

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

 

Always listen to Pac

[Capco]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

My guess is that he did know other cops who were the same as him and my reply to that is "birds of a feather..." I didn't read anything in that article confirmed systemic racism or even "all cops are bastards. I read about a cop who was a POS and knew some other cops who were similar to him.

 

Racism aside, isn't something like this a systemic problem for accountability?

 

In fact, let me tell you about an extremely formative experience: in my police academy class, we had a clique of around six trainees who routinely bullied and harassed other students: intentionally scuffing another trainee’s shoes to get them in trouble during inspection, sexually harassing female trainees, cracking racist jokes, and so on. Every quarter, we were to write anonymous evaluations of our squadmates. I wrote scathing accounts of their behavior, thinking I was helping keep bad apples out of law enforcement and believing I would be protected. Instead, the academy staff read my complaints to them out loud and outed me to them and never punished them, causing me to get harassed for the rest of my academy class. That’s how I learned that even police leadership hates rats. That’s why no one is “changing things from the inside.” They can’t, the structure won’t allow it.

[Buffalo_Gal]

6 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

I thought he was very good.

Honestly, except for one guy, the hearings this morning (I turned it off after Bongino) were fairly reasonable.  Some of it was feelings, which is to be expected considering who was invited (and it was sad), some of it was data from past defundings, some was ideas for going forward.  Of course there were a few   moments, but for the most part people appeared to want a solution to the bad apples, and to find a way weed out said bad apples. 

The devil is in the details. Some of what was said about the bill (which will pass) will make policing difficult to impossible. It will not attract the best and brightest, and will harm the very communities the people testifying are trying to help.





 

[Orlando Tim]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I have no ide if this particular cop did all that he said he did; however, if he did, he is a POS. It was his own character that caused him to behave the way he did, not LE training. For example:

 

In one paragraph he says, "Sarge called me over to assist him. He was detaining a 70 year old immigrant who spoke no English, who he’d seen picking a coke can out of a trash bin. He ordered me to arrest her for stealing trash. I said, “Sarge, c’mon, she’s an old lady.” He said, “I don’t give a *****. Hook her up, that’s an order.” And… I did. She cried the entire way to the station and all through the booking process. I couldn’t even comfort her because I didn’t speak Spanish. I felt disgusting but I was ordered to make this arrest and I wasn’t willing to lose my job for her."

 

In the very next paragraph he says, "I used to happily hassle the homeless under other circumstances. I researched obscure penal codes so I could arrest people in homeless encampments for lesser known crimes like “remaining too close to railroad property” (369i of the California Penal Code). I used to call it “planting warrant seeds” since I knew they wouldn’t make their court dates and we could arrest them again and again for warrant violations."

 

Either one is disgusted by it or he/she is not. You don't go from "this behavior disgusts me" to "I happily engaged in this behavior."

 

My guess is that he did know other cops who were the same as him and my reply to that is "birds of a feather..." I didn't read anything in that article confirmed systemic racism or even "all cops are bastards. I read about a cop who was a POS and knew some other cops who were similar to him.

 

The saddest part, is that people will read this article, with no verification of anything he wrote and believe every word of it; however, they won't believe the hundreds of thousands of current or retired LE Officers who will say the training they went through was not anything like this guy describes, that they never engaged in this type of behavior, and that, while it certainly exists, it exists in a minority of the LE population - and they are as equally disgusted by it as anyone else.

22 minutes ago, Capco said:

Long (20+ minute) read but worth sharing:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

"American policing is a thick blue tumor strangling the life from our communities and if you don’t believe it when the poor and the marginalized say it, if you don’t believe it when you see cops across the country shooting journalists with less-lethal bullets and caustic chemicals, maybe you’ll believe it when you hear it straight from the pig’s mout

 

I am supposed to care what a guy says who is either a liar or a horrible person? If this guy did all these things then I hope he rots in hell when he dies. I know members of large and small police forces and while all acknowledge people like him exist they are the exception. The sad part is that articles like this which has no way to verify gets spread as "truth" with no way to argue because every charge is vague and every fact is blurry. I would be embarrassed if I put this trash out there. 

 

37 minutes ago, Capco said:

Long (20+ minute) read but worth sharing:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

"American policing is a thick blue tumor strangling the life from our communities and if you don’t believe it when the poor and the marginalized say it, if you don’t believe it when you see cops across the country shooting journalists with less-lethal bullets and caustic chemicals, maybe you’ll believe it when you hear it straight from the pig’s mouth."

lockquote widgetblockquote widget

[billsfan1959]

18 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

Racism aside, isn't something like this a systemic problem for accountability?

 

In fact, let me tell you about an extremely formative experience: in my police academy class, we had a clique of around six trainees who routinely bullied and harassed other students: intentionally scuffing another trainee’s shoes to get them in trouble during inspection, sexually harassing female trainees, cracking racist jokes, and so on. Every quarter, we were to write anonymous evaluations of our squadmates. I wrote scathing accounts of their behavior, thinking I was helping keep bad apples out of law enforcement and believing I would be protected. Instead, the academy staff read my complaints to them out loud and outed me to them and never punished them, causing me to get harassed for the rest of my academy class. That’s how I learned that even police leadership hates rats. That’s why no one is “changing things from the inside.” They can’t, the structure won’t allow it.

 

To be systemic, it has to be pervasive. That is my point. Not that it doesn't exist, but that it exists in a minority who are characterologically flawed. LE Officers do feel a brotherhood with each other because they share a common bond. It is human nature. It is also human nature to want to believe and protect those you feel close to.

 

But only to a point.

 

Think of your own life in regard to family and friends. Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in degrading some innocent person for no reason at all? Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in falsely accusing someone of something to get them arrested and sent to jail? Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in physically assaulting someone because of their race or other non-justified reason? Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in  killing someone because of their race or any other non-justified reason? Would you just stand by and not try to stop them from committing any of these acts? Would you lie under oath to protect them for any of these acts? Would you actively cover up any of these acts for them?

 

My guess is most people would say no to most of those questions.

 

There are bad LE Officers, just as there are bad people in every other segment of society. Sometimes you don't know those character flaws until it is too late. Sometimes you don't know the degree of those character flaws and whether or not they should be removed. Sometimes you feel they should and it is difficult to actually get them removed. Sometimes you are successful in getting them removed.

 

The law enforcement community has worked as hard as any other entity in this country to rid themselves of this type of s**t. Unfortunately, when it does rear its ugly head, it is on every news outlet around the country 24/7. And the rest of LE gets painted with the same brush stroke

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by billsfan1959

[B-Man]

 

 

AMERICA, WE ARE LEAVING. At Law Officer.com, Travis Yates writes:

You aren’t going to have to abolish the police, we won’t be around for it.

 

And while I know, most Americans still appreciate us, it’s not enough and the risk is too high. Those of you that say thank you or buy the occasional meal, it means everything.

 

But those of you that were silent while the slow turning of the knives in our backs happened by thugs and cowards, this is on you.

 

Your belief in hashtags and memes over the truth has and will create an environment in your community that you will never expect.

 

If you think Minneapolis will turn into Mogadishu and that is far from you, it’s coming.

 

And when it does, remember what your complicity did.

 

This is the America that you made. 

 

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

 

[Capco]

13 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

To be systemic, it has to be pervasive. That is my point. Not that it doesn't exist, but that it exists in a minority who are characterologically flawed. LE Officers do feel a brotherhood with each other because they share a common bond. It is human nature. It is also human nature to want to believe and protect those you feel close to.

 

With all due respect, did you read the quote?  The guy came into the force wanting to do the right thing, did the right thing in training, then got called out for it instead of action being taken.  If you went through that experience, what would be the lesson that you learned?  Would it be that doing the right thing is what policing is all about?  Or would it be to shut your mouth when it comes to the misconduct of your coworkers?  

 

 

13 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Think of your own life in regard to family and friends. Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in degrading some innocent person for no reason at all? Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in falsely accusing someone of something to get them arrested and sent to jail? Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in physically assaulting someone because of their race or other non-justified reason? Would you willingly assist a family member or close friend in  killing someone because of their race or any other non-justified reason? Would you just stand by and not try to stop them from committing any of these acts? Would you lie under oath to protect them for any of these acts? Would you actively cover up any of these acts for them?

 

My guess is most people would say no to most of those questions.

 

That would be my guess too.  But most of those people don't go through training that involves the following, do they?

 

Every police academy is different but all of them share certain features: taught by old cops, run like a paramilitary bootcamp, strong emphasis on protecting yourself more than anyone else. The majority of my time in the academy was spent doing aggressive physical training and watching video after video after video of police officers being murdered on duty.

I want to highlight this: nearly everyone coming into law enforcement is bombarded with dash cam footage of police officers being ambushed and killed. Over and over and over. Colorless VHS mortality plays, cops screaming for help over their radios, their bodies going limp as a pair of tail lights speed away into a grainy black horizon. In my case, with commentary from an old racist cop who used to brag about assaulting Black Panthers.

 

...

 

Once police training has - through repetition, indoctrination, and violent spectacle - promised officers that everyone in the world is out to kill them, the next lesson is that your partners are the only people protecting you. Occasionally, this is even true: I’ve had encounters turn on me rapidly to the point I legitimately thought I was going to die, only to have other officers come and turn the tables.

 

And remember, this particular officer didn't get to choose his training.  It wasn't his personal choice to learn these lessons.  They were taught to him by the system he was joining.  If every police cadet "did the right thing" during their training, this police force wouldn't have a single cop on it. 

 

How is that not pervasive?  

Edited June 10, 2020 by Capco

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

With all due respect, did you read the quote?  The guy came into the force wanting to do the right thing, did the right thing in training, then got called out for it instead of action being taken.  If you went through that experience, what would be the lesson that you learned?  Would it be that doing the right thing is what policing is all about?  Or would it be to shut your mouth when it comes to the misconduct of your coworkers?  

 

I read the entire article. MY opinion is if he came into the force wanting to do the right thing, he would have done it. What he describes is not the experience of the vast majority of officers. You don't become bad, to the degreee we are talking about, if that potential is not already within you..

 

1 minute ago, Capco said:

That would be my guess too.  But most of those people don't go through training that involves the following, do they?

 

Every police academy is different but all of them share certain features: taught by old cops, run like a paramilitary bootcamp, strong emphasis on protecting yourself more than anyone else. The majority of my time in the academy was spent doing aggressive physical training and watching video after video after video of police officers being murdered on duty.

I want to highlight this: nearly everyone coming into law enforcement is bombarded with dash cam footage of police officers being ambushed and killed. Over and over and over. Colorless VHS mortality plays, cops screaming for help over their radios, their bodies going limp as a pair of tail lights speed away into a grainy black horizon. In my case, with commentary from an old racist cop who used to brag about assaulting Black Panthers.

 

Once police training has - through repetition, indoctrination, and violent spectacle - promised officers that everyone in the world is out to kill them, the next lesson is that your partners are the only people protecting you. Occasionally, this is even true: I’ve had encounters turn on me rapidly to the point I legitimately thought I was going to die, only to have other officers come and turn the tables.

 

And remember, this particular officer didn't get to choose his training.  It wasn't his personal choice to learn these lessons.  They were taught to him by the system he was joining.  If every police cadet "did the right thing" in during their training, this police force wouldn't have a single cop on it. 

 

How is that not systemic?  

 

I went through three diffferent academies in my career. There was never an emphasis "that everyone in the world is out to kill" us. The training is typically split between physical fitness (which also includes self defense/how to conduct arrests/ etc), firearms qualification, and classroom (Rules, procedures, the law, etc.). There is an emphasis on self protection, but only from the perspective that it can be a dangerous job and you have to always be prepared.

 

I would also ask @Sig1Hunterwhat his experiences have been.

 

My question to you is, why are you so willing to believe the guy in this article over others who say differently?

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

Now this is something you do not see everyday... Hannity getting talked over.
 

 

[Capco]

8 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

You don't become bad, to the degree we are talking about, if that potential is not already within you..

 

On a fundamental level I disagree with this and maybe that's where some of the disconnect is.  Under the appropriate environmental (read: external) circumstances anyone can be a saint or a sinner.  I have some supporting arguments on this topic if you'd like to discuss it further.  

 

8 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I went through three diffferent academies in my career. There was never an emphasis "that everyone in the world is out to kill" us. The training is typically split between physical fitness (which also includes self defense/how to conduct arrests/ etc), firearms qualification, and classroom (Rules, procedures, the law, etc.). There is an emphasis on self protection, but only from the perspective that it can be a dangerous job and you have to always be prepared.

 

I would also ask @Sig1Hunterwhat his experiences have been.

 

I appreciate you offering your personal experiences.  I was just about to ask Sig to comment here as well lol.  

 

8 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

My question to you is, why are you so willing to believe the guy in this article over others who say differently?

 

I'm not.  I'm listening you as well, aren't I? 

 

So, his experiences are anecdotal.  So are yours.  Each can only be taken with a grain of salt, right?  And yet somehow you think you can speak for the vast majority of officers when you said this:

 

8 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

What he describes is not the experience of the vast majority of officers.

 

Is there something about your life experience that allows you to speak for the vast majority of officers?  

Edited June 10, 2020 by Capco

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, Capco said:

Long (20+ minute) read but worth sharing:

 

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

 

"American policing is a thick blue tumor strangling the life from our communities and if you don’t believe it when the poor and the marginalized say it, if you don’t believe it when you see cops across the country shooting journalists with less-lethal bullets and caustic chemicals, maybe you’ll believe it when you hear it straight from the pig’s mouth."

 

I don't have 20 minutes but I'll respond to your (asinine quote).  If you feel that way about EVERY police officer I hate for you to find yourself in a situation where you need one.  You've been in an accident.  You need help getting your car out of a ditch.  You're lost in an unfamiliar city and need directions.  You need your noisy neighbors to shut the party down because it's real late and you need to sleep.  I really hate that if any of those things happen to you and the police decide not to help you because who wants help from a "tumor strangling the life out of our communities."  Do you really feel that every police officer is a "tumor strangling the life out of our communities?  Really??

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Are you're in favor of defunding the police, Capco? Or no? If no, what's your suggestion for a solution?

 

I think there's a two pronged approach to address the issue of police brutality and accountability, one on the federal level and one on the local level.

 

Both Republicans and Democrats are working on their own version of bills to address the issues at the federal level. In this election year it will be a miracle if anything happens, but the fact that both parties are working on it says something. 

 

On the local level, if there are localities with black communities that want to reprioritize funding into the community, create new training requirements and create processes of accountability, then that's all right with me. 

 

Total abolishment of the police in the name of a police free society is a pipe dream. Disbanding a specific police force because of their history of corruption and reconstituting a new police department may be the only some communities rebuild trust between the community and the police. 

 

And without being held accountable to anyone else's desires or wishes, it's my hope that as the dust settles from this unrest, police in communities effected by a long history of violence find a way to rebuild trust and work for the communities they protect and serve. 

 

 

[Capco]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I don't have 20 minutes but I'll respond to your (asinine quote).  If you feel that way about EVERY police officer I hate for you to find yourself in a situation where you need one.  You've been in an accident.  You need help getting your car out of a ditch.  You're lost in an unfamiliar city and need directions.  You need your noisy neighbors to shut the party down because it's real late and you need to sleep.  I really hate that if any of those things happen to you and the police decide not to help you because who wants help from a "tumor strangling the life out of our communities."  Do you really feel that every police officer is a "tumor strangling the life out of our communities?  Really??

 

Systemic doesn't mean absolute or unequivocal.  When a disease is systemic that doesn't mean that every single cell involved in the system in question is diseased.

 

Are all cops good?  No.

 

Are all cops bad?  No.

 

I hope that answers your questions.  

[Warren Zevon]

2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

You need help getting your car out of a ditch. 

 

Tow Truck

 

3 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

You're lost in an unfamiliar city and need directions.

 

Google Maps

 

3 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

You need your noisy neighbors to shut the party down because it's real late and you need to sleep.

 

Okay, Chef Karen

 

3 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

I really hate that if any of those things happen to you and the police decide not to help you

 

Life would be okay.

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

On a fundamental level I disagree with this and maybe that's where some of the disconnect is.  Under the appropriate environmental (read: external) circumstances anyone can be a saint or a sinner.  I have some supporting arguments on this topic if you'd like to discuss it further.  

 

I would agree that under the right circumstances many people can commit an act that is out of character. Again, that is situationally driven and specific to each individual. That is different, at least for me, from the type of everyday behavior we are talking or like what we saw with Chauvin.

 

5 minutes ago, Capco said:

So, his experiences are anecdotal.  So are yours.  Each can only be taken with a grain of salt, right?  And yet somehow you think you can speak for the vast majority of officers when you said this:

 

Is there something about your life experience that allows you to speak for the vast majority of officers?  

 

You are right. On their face, my statements really carry no more weight and it is my opinion based on my own experiences. To answer about my life experiences, I will say that I was in a position where I was able to work violent crime task forces for many years. Those task forces were comprised of federal, state, and local officers working the most violent cases in the areas with the highest violent crime rates. During that time, I worked along side hundreds upon hundreds of other LE Officers with literally thousands of contacts with people in high crime areas. At the end of my career, I worked in the analysis of violent crime, particularly offender and victim behaviors. Since my retirement, I have worked for myself as a consultant, working with attorneys in violent crime trials. That spans 35+ years. 

 

It doesn't make me right, it is just the basis of my opinion.

 

Just for the record, I think there are so many ways in which we can continue to improve law enforcement.

 

I also appreciate you being open in your discussions.

[Warren Zevon]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

 

Systemic doesn't mean absolute or unequivocal.  When a disease is systemic that doesn't mean that every single cell involved in the system in question is diseased.

 

Are all cops good?  No.

 

Are all cops bad?  No.

 

I hope that answers your questions.  

 

Obviously but you're talking to Chef jim

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

Systemic doesn't mean absolute or unequivocal.  When a disease is systemic that doesn't mean that every single cell involved in the system in question is diseased.

 

Are all cops good?  No.

 

Are all cops bad?  Yes

 

I hope that answers your questions.  

 

I have changed your answers above based on your quote from the article. Why did you feel it necessary to post that particular quote if you didn't believe it? 

[Capco]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

I would agree that under the right circumstances many people can commit an act that is out of character. Again, that is situationally driven and specific to each individual. That is different, at least for me, from the type of everyday behavior we are talking or like what we saw with Chauvin.

 

 

You are right. On their face, my statements really carry no more weight and it is my opinion based on my own experiences. To answer about my life experiences, I will say that I was in a position where I was able to work violent crime task forces for many years. Those task forces were comprised of federal, state, and local officers working the most violent cases in the areas with the highest violent crime rates. During that time, I worked along side hundreds upon hundreds of other LE Officers with literally thousands of contacts with people in high crime areas. At the end of my career, I worked in the analysis of violent crime, particularly offender and victim behaviors. Since my retirement, I have worked for myself as a consultant, working with attorneys in violent crime trials. That spans 35+ years. 

 

It doesn't make me right, it is just the basis of my opinion.

 

Just for the record, I think there are so many ways in which we can continue to improve law enforcement.

 

I also appreciate you being open in your discussions.

 

Excellent post.  Thank you again for your contributions to this discussion and, especially, your service to your community.  You definitely sound like you were a fine police officer.  

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

Obviously but you're talking to Chef jim

 

Do you agree with the part of the article he quoted?  

[Warren Zevon]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 

Do you agree with the part of the article he quoted?  

 

I've retired from playing 20 questions with Chef Jim. Sorry, bud.

[Capco]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 

I have changed your answers above based on your quote from the article. Why did you feel it necessary to post that particular quote if you didn't believe it? 

 

It was an eye-catching quote from the introduction that summarizes a lot of the essay.  I just wanted to use the essay as a basis for discussion.  

 

There was nothing more to it than that my guy.  But feel free to keep putting words in my mouth.  If you think you have me all figured out, good for you I guess.  

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

It was an eye-catching quote from the introduction that summarizes a lot of the essay.  I just wanted to use the essay as a basis for discussion.  

 

There was nothing more to it than that my guy.  But feel free to keep putting words in my mouth.  If you think you have me all figured out, good for you I guess.  

 

I find it very hard to believe that you used that quote from a 20 minute read unless it resonated with you.  Eye catching indeed.  

6 minutes ago, Warren Zevon said:

 

I've retired from playing 20 questions with Chef Jim. Sorry, bud.

 

Because you're afraid the answers to these questions may shine a light on what kind of a person you really are?  No worries.  If you're afraid to answer them I understand.  

[muppy]

this was posted on another boards political section regarding this issue and I found it very succinct and madea great deal of sense worthy of a repost here

 

Quote

The slogan 'defund the police' isn't accurate, its being completely misconstrued, Camden NJ never defunded, but they did close down the whole shebang and start all over again, so defund does not mean no police, that's crazy, defund means making the force more a service based community service who more answer to their community and a BOD from the community rather than to politicians

The key here was taking 50% of the funds usually directed to the police and instead re-allocating it to 911 and or other community services, the idea being that alot of calls coming in didn't require aggressive police action, guns drawn law n order, mosts calls more require a de-escalation, a more gentle approach, especially mental issues calls

I will tell you my police friends agree they get sent out to do alot things they don't have training in, they would prefer not to deal with this calls anymore, in Camden this was addressed

Starting over also eliminated all the usual politics which stop police from self reforming, the union had to also close down shop and start all over again in Camden

Is Camden perfect, probably not, but the more I read about Camden the more I love what they did, it worked, but can it work in other places, it can, but it takes a ton of moving parts to all be on the same page

First everyone admitting there is a problem, and a willingness to accept change, to try something different, remember there are folks out there with agenda's who say systemic racism is a myth, who feel they will lose privledge if the status-quo is not maintained

All I know is I have a ton of empathy for police, its a very difficult job, but my empathy ends when I see military style police beating up on citizens, its a real ***** optic, first I the whole shoot to kill well ask question later thing is outdated, what ever happened to wounding a suspect in the leg? Why are police attacking protesters with batons? Ugly, thats not community based policing, that's violence, and it reeks of FASCISM, nor do I like police involved in actions which escalate, to me to serve and protect, their primary job is to de-escalate

However police serve a very important role in a democracy, we just need to redefine the role, to get back where police treat every citizen equally equally regardless of the colour of their skin, and in time I think alot of us can go back to uber respecting our local police, working with them instead of fearing them, but major reforms are required, a bandaid likely isn't do the trick

just my opinion

 

 

 

[Warren Zevon]

Chef Jim has 20 minutes to talk about the a quote he's misinterpreting but doesn't have 20 minutes to read the article.

 

Chef Jim in a nutshell

 

[Capco]

2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

I find it very hard to believe that you used that quote from a 20 minute read unless it resonated with you.  Eye catching indeed.  

 

Believe what you want dude.  Read the exchange between billsfan1959 and myself if you think I'm being disingenuous.