Would you keep the HC\GM combo if Allen doesn't work out.

[Punching Bag]

Of course not, you tear it down go back to mediocre football for 10 years hoping the right players, coaches in front office are hired at same time.

Maybe even move if domed stadium with glass roof and removing grass fields cannot be built on locals dime.

 

/S

[stuvian]

this is an organization that went to the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor at QB so that's a strong yes. It will be interesting to see for how long Josh is the unchallenged starter and how long he is given to win the job as a legacy QB

[Chicken Boo]

Depends on how the scenario plays out.  If it's clear that Allen isn't working out, I expect Beane to recognize it and act accordingly. 

 

A situation where Beane/McDermott hold on to "the dream" for too long, would make me want a new GM and/or coach. 

 

Take Ryan Pace, for example.  He will soon be approaching this territory with Trubisky.

[LSHMEAB]

4 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

Depends on how the scenario plays out.  If it's clear that Allen isn't working out, I expect Beane to recognize it and act accordingly. 

 

A situation where Beane/McDermott hold on to "the dream" for too long, would make me want a new GM and/or coach. 

 

Take Ryan Pace, for example.  He will soon be approaching this territory with Trubisky.

Thought about it quite a bit because I think there's a real 40/60 shot at this scenario.(sorry if that offend's anyone's sensitivities). My opinion is the above. If they were to pull the plug at the appropriate time, YES. 

 

This combo has gotten the Bills to the playoffs twice in 3 seasons after 17 years of nothing. 

 

IF, IF Allen doesn't progress, I would absolutely give them one more shot at it.

Edited March 22, 2020 by LSHMEAB

[CLTbills]

As of right now, yes. Shouldn’t even be a discussion.

[Poleshifter]

Yes, keep Beane and McDermott.

 

 

[Mike in Horseheads]

Bills make the playoffs in 2/3 years after 50,000 years. Allen comes in and has done wonders with what he had to work with and won some games on his own. But yet we have another thread should we get rid of everybody just amazing.

[Mr. K]

Yes. No questions. 

 

Missing playoffs the next 3 years might make things iffy

[Buffalophil1948]

Absolutely 

[downunderbill]

44 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

Bills make the playoffs in 2/3 years after 50,000 years. Allen comes in and has done wonders with what he had to work with and won some games on his own. But yet we have another thread should we get rid of everybody just amazing.

 

did you even read the post?

[Mike in Horseheads]

6 minutes ago, downunderbill said:

 

did you even read the post?

Yes did you?

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

What’s that mean? Their offense has been lackluster to this point.... another season of that and a .500 or so season and there will be a different tone around here.

It means that comment was in response to someone saying quote some defensive/special teams touchdowns have inflated these (pts per game under McDermott) end quote.

[Capco]

When should negotiations begin in regards to extending McBeane?

[downunderbill]

45 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

Yes did you?

No

 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Capco said:

When should negotiations begin in regards to extending McBeane?

 

Are they until the end of 2021 at the moment? I'd give them both 3 year extensions. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

6 hours ago, Capco said:

When should negotiations begin in regards to extending McBeane?

Today.

[SoTier]

11 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Thought about it quite a bit because I think there's a real 40/60 shot at this scenario.(sorry if that offend's anyone's sensitivities). My opinion is the above. If they were to pull the plug at the appropriate time, YES. 

 

This combo has gotten the Bills to the playoffs twice in 3 seasons after 17 years of nothing. 

 

IF, IF Allen doesn't progress, I would absolutely give them one more shot at it.

 

This is my view.  As long as they realize their mistake with Allen and do something about it, then I'm good with them.  If they keep holding on to a sub-par QB just because he was a #1 pick and is still on a rookie contract without coming up with a "Plan B", then they need to go.  

 

8 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

Bills make the playoffs in 2/3 years after 50,000 years. Allen comes in and has done wonders with what he had to work with and won some games on his own. But yet we have another thread should we get rid of everybody just amazing.

 

This thread isn't about whether Allen is likely to succeed or fail.  It's about how fans would feel about Beane and McDermott if Allen were to fail -- and it's certainly not an unrealistic or a pessimistic question.  Look at Chicago.  In 2018, the Bears went 12-4 with Mitch Trubisky looking good -- better than Allen looked in his second season -- but Trubisky failed to continue to improve in his third year and actually regressed (probably because DCs have "figured him out"), and the Bears went down the toilet.   This year the Bears traded for Nick Foles rather than leaving all their eggs in the basket with Trubisky.

[TigerJ]

I would

[BillsfanAZ]

Allen may never be elite but he definitely is not a bust. Even if he is average to above average the Bills can build a good team around him and still be a contender. I would sign McBeane to an extension now.

[C.Biscuit97]

29 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

Allen may never be elite but he definitely is not a bust. Even if he is average to above average the Bills can build a good team around him and still be a contender. I would sign McBeane to an extension now.

Dick Jauron and Ryan Fitzpatrick love this idea!  
 

you think there is going to some bidding war for Beane after the season?  Has that ever happened?  

[Chandler#81]

Kind of a foolish question. I’ve never been allowed to voice my opinion on Coaching/GM changes. If this were anything but fantasy, Buster Ramsey would never have gotten the job. Ditto for Harvey Johnson -let alone TWICE!

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, BillsfanAZ said:

Allen may never be elite but he definitely is not a bust. Even if he is average to above average the Bills can build a good team around him and still be a contender. I would sign McBeane to an extension now.

 

I don't think that "average or above average" is good enough in today's NFL.  At one time, a stout defense and a strong run game could hide a lot of QB deficiencies, but not any more.  A team has to have an "excellent or elite" QB to compete with today's offensive juggernauts in the playoffs, because they all seem to have good defenses, too.   The aim to "be a contender" doesn't say much.  The Bills were playoff contenders in 2014, 2017, 2019 -- and actually made the playoffs in 2017 and 2019 -- but they were never serious Super Bowl contenders.  Maybe you're satisfied with 9 or 10 wins a season and quick one and done playoff appearances but that's not good enough for me.

 

Allen hasn't earned an extension at this point.  He showed he was a competent NFL QB in 2019 but his passing and some of his decision making weren't good enough.  Improvements on the offense should help him, but he's got to take advantage of the better weapons he'll have in 2020. It's entirely possible that he improves only incrementally in his third year -- or like Trubisky, doesn't improve at all.  At this point he's played well enough for the Bills to consider picking up his fifth year option but they've got to see considerably more improvement before they decide to give him a pricey extension.  He's not a $25-30 million a year QB at this point.

[BillsfanAZ]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

I don't think that "average or above average" is good enough in today's NFL.  At one time, a stout defense and a strong run game could hide a lot of QB deficiencies, but not any more.  A team has to have an "excellent or elite" QB to compete with today's offensive juggernauts in the playoffs, because they all seem to have good defenses, too.   The aim to "be a contender" doesn't say much.  The Bills were playoff contenders in 2014, 2017, 2019 -- and actually made the playoffs in 2017 and 2019 -- but they were never serious Super Bowl contenders.  Maybe you're satisfied with 9 or 10 wins a season and quick one and done playoff appearances but that's not good enough for me.

 

Allen hasn't earned an extension at this point.  He showed he was a competent NFL QB in 2019 but his passing and some of his decision making weren't good enough.  Improvements on the offense should help him, but he's got to take advantage of the better weapons he'll have in 2020. It's entirely possible that he improves only incrementally in his third year -- or like Trubisky, doesn't improve at all.  At this point he's played well enough for the Bills to consider picking up his fifth year option but they've got to see considerably more improvement before they decide to give him a pricey extension.  He's not a $25-30 million a year QB at this point.

Everybody would love to have a great or elite QB. Good QB is hugely important but it is not the end all be all to winning. Every year there are teams that win playoff games without a great QB.....this year Vikings, 49ers, and Titans all won playoff games with average or above average QB's. Jimmy G has some good games and then he plays awful. 

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Dick Jauron and Ryan Fitzpatrick love this idea!  
 

you think there is going to some bidding war for Beane after the season?  Has that ever happened?  

This year they were both in the conversation for Coach and GM of the year. Yeah your right if the Bills fire him his career as a GM is over.  

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, BillsfanAZ said:

Everybody would love to have a great or elite QB. Good QB is hugely important but it is not the end all be all to winning. Every year there are teams that win playoff games without a great QB.....this year Vikings, 49ers, and Titans all won playoff games with average or above average QB's. Jimmy G has some good games and then he plays awful.

 

Kirk Cousins, Jimmy Garoppolo, and Ryan Tannehill were all far better than "average" or "above average" in 2019.  Cousins has been a very good QB for most of his career.  Tannehill had a career year in 2019.  Garoppolo, in his first full year as a starter, played excellently although he wasn't asked to carry the team very often and failed in his biggest test.

[Mat68]

Depends on the recignition and response to the issue.  

[jrober38]

Yes. The rest of the team has been built very well. I used to be critical of them but I think they're both quite good.

 

If Allen doesn't solidify himself as a top 10 guy this year, you draft a new QB next year to have on a rookie contract for 4 years and try again. 

[GG]

On 3/21/2020 at 6:32 AM, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Like the infamous @GG. 

 

Just getting around to this.  Yes, at that time (week 4) Josh was holding the offense back and Dabol was getting too much flak, when it was Allen making stupid decisions.  By mid-season Dabol adjusted the offense to fit Allen's strengths, but it was still not enough to field an above average offensive output. 

 

You can make an argument that Allen doesn't have bonafide playmakers, but the bottom line remains is that Allen is still hesitant to make routine throws an NFL QB HAS to make.   He cannot wait until his receivers are wide open every time.  He needs to trust the play and the route and give his receivers a chance.

 

Case in point is the 1st down play, in 3Q of the Texans game.  Bills have the ball on the Texans 14, after Hopkins' fumble.  A TD here puts the game away for sure.  Dabol calls a perfect post route for Lee Smith.   The safety realizes too late and holds Smith up.  Allen is staring him down all the way, and needs to release the ball at the top of his drop, which he started to do.  His hand is pumped back and Smith has enough separation from the safety who's holding on to him.  A good QB throws the ball at that instance, because there are only 3 outcomes - Smith makes the catch for a TD or 1st down inside the 3 yd line, safety called for holding or DPI, pass is incomplete.  Instead Allen pulls the ball back and makes an odd off-balance throw to Kroft who has no chance of catching it.   

 

When Allen starts making that routine throw, then all the questions will stop.

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by GG

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

14 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Just getting around to this.  Yes, at that time (week 4) Josh was holding the offense back and Dabol was getting too much flak, when it was Allen making stupid decisions.  By mid-season Dabol adjusted the offense to fit Allen's strengths, but it was still not enough to field an above average offensive output. 

 

You can make an argument that Allen doesn't have bonafide playmakers, but the bottom line remains is that Allen is still hesitant to make routine throws an NFL QB HAS to make.   He cannot wait until his receivers are wide open every time.  He needs to trust the play and the route and give his receivers a chance.

 

Case in point is the 1st down play, in 3Q of the Texans game.  Bills have the ball on the Texans 14, after Hopkins' fumble.  A TD here puts the game away for sure.  Dabol calls a perfect post route for Lee Smith.   The safety realizes too late and holds Smith up.  Allen is staring him down all the way, and needs to release the ball at the top of his drop, which he started to do.  His hand is pumped back and Smith has enough separation from the safety who's holding on to him.  A good QB throws the ball at that instance, because there are only 3 outcomes - Smith makes the catch for a TD or 1st down inside the 3 yd line, safety called for holding or DPI, pass is incomplete.  Instead Allen pulls the ball back and makes an odd off-balance throw to Kroft who has no chance of catching it.   

 

When Allen starts making that routine throw, then all the questions will stop.

 

 

 

 

Color me skeptical. There will ALWAYS be posters here nitpicking the guy.

 

[GG]

1 minute ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Color me skeptical. There will ALWAYS be posters here nitpicking the guy.

 

 

Nitpicking by highlighting that he's still hesitant to make a routine NFL throw in week 18 of his 2nd NFL season?  Hopefully Palmer has that play on very heavy rotation this offseason.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Nitpicking by highlighting that he's still hesitant to make a routine NFL throw in week 18 of his 2nd NFL season?  Hopefully Palmer has that play on very heavy rotation this offseason.

 

Yep. No matter the number of brilliant plays the guy makes in a game, some son of a motherless goat around here will find the one pass he "missed" or was "inaccurate" on.

 

[mjd1001]

People have short memories and want to place blame for everything that goes wrong.

I would personally keep the combo because I don't like a lot of change and am one of the last person to get on the bandwagon of 'fire the coach' or 'fire the gm'

However, if Allen doesn't pan out to be a very good or better QB...and the team doesn't become a regular playoff contender, I'm pretty sure this forum will be filled with people asking for changes to the coach and/or GM.

[GG]

1 minute ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Yep. No matter the number of brilliant plays the guy makes in a game, some son of a motherless goat around here will find the one pass he "missed" or was "inaccurate" on.

 

 

How many points did the Bills score in regulation?  How many times did the offense score more than 24 during the season?  

 

It's ok to recognize that Allen is still limited as an NFL QB and has to resort to improvised athleticism.  That's not sustainable if he can't make routine throws, because he will continue to get hammered on every one of those "brilliant" plays.  

[Mango]

It depends on how prepared they are for the replacement. Is there a quality replacement on the roster that could get them through a stretch like an Andy Dalton? Do they trade to the top of the draft to nab a guy? Or does it just become Barkley? 

 

I like McBeane, but they have also had some missteps in trying to upgrade some position groups. Leaving out recent signings because we have not seen it play out. 

 

- DB's- Tre is a stud, and what they did with Hyde and Poyer is great. Depth is lacking. We also devoted resources to replacing an already strong group (Gilmore and Darby) it was not necessary. Whiffed on Vontae Davis. We will see how Norman plays out. 

- DL- Hughes, was here before. Star is meh and on what was a big contract at the time. Shaq was here. Harry is injured. Trent has not been good. Jordan Philips was a good pick up for us. 

- LB- I like Milano and Edmunds. They aren't there yet, but when they are both on they are exciting. Group needs to be rounded out but all in all a good job. 

- WR- Beasely and Brown are great additions for the group. KB and Zay were bad. 

-OL- Not a great group, just a meh group. Losing Wood and Richie were tough and we did a poor job of preparing protection for all we invested in our QB in year one. 

-TE- was bad now is better but not great. 

-QB- Josh is electric- but this thread is assuming that he tops out as electric and stops showing improvement. They also went into a season with Peterman as their No. 1

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Mango

[BigBillsFan]

52 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Yep. No matter the number of brilliant plays the guy makes in a game, some son of a motherless goat around here will find the one pass he "missed" or was "inaccurate" on.

 

 

You do realize he was in the bottom 3rd of all starting QBs for the season right? It's not about brilliant plays, it's about consistent play.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

23 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

You do realize he was in the bottom 3rd of all starting QBs for the season right? It's not about brilliant plays, it's about consistent play.

 

Don't really care. Guy's a winner, and the best QB we've had in 30 years. Build around him.

 

[thenorthremembers]

24 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

You do realize he was in the bottom 3rd of all starting QBs for the season right? It's not about brilliant plays, it's about consistent play.

In what category are you referring to?

5 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Don't really care. Guy's a winner, and the best QB we've had in 30 years. Build around him.

 

No, and the stat he is quoting is random.

[1billsfan]

Josh Allen will go down as the best QB from his class (Jackson's body type and style aren't a long lasting recipe). Allen was tied for first in both 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives last year (probably the most important quality for your starting QB to have). His teammates love him for his fearless, reckless-abandoned style of play. IMO Bills fans are going to see a REALLY REALLY good offense this year (Diggs is a game changer). They are going to be shocked at how good they are, and it's gonna be REALLY REALLY fun to watch.

 

 

[BigBillsFan]

18 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

In what category are you referring to?

No, and the stat he is quoting is random.

 

Bottom 1/3rd QB rating

Lowest YPG & Yards passing as a starter

Lowest completion percentage

(in comparison to every other starter in the league, not backups)

 

I could keep going, but in all metrics that show a good QB he isn't one.

Edited March 23, 2020 by BigBillsFan

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Don't really care. Guy's a winner, and the best QB we've had in 30 years. Build around him.

 

 

I'm not sure you can really say you don't care about his consistency. To my mind the 2019 version of Josh tops out at 9 to 10 wins and maybe a wildcard playoff victory. If he can just become that little bit more consistent on the routine stuff without losing the heroball splash plays..... then he could be a Championship winning Quarterback. But he does have to get more consistent. 

[C.Biscuit97]

39 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Don't really care. Guy's a winner, and the best QB we've had in 30 years. Build around him.

 

Yeah, it was all Allen and not the 3rd ranked defense.  

27 minutes ago, 1billsfan said:

Josh Allen will go down as the best QB from his class (Jackson's body type and style aren't a long lasting recipe). Allen was tied for first in both 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives last year (probably the most important quality for your starting QB to have). His teammates love him for his fearless, reckless-abandoned style of play. IMO Bills fans are going to see a REALLY REALLY good offense this year (Diggs is a game changer). They are going to be shocked at how good they are, and it's gonna be REALLY REALLY fun to watch.

 

 

Mark Sanchez had 5 game winning drives one year.  With all defense and our crap schedule, more consistent offense would have put those games away earlier so we didn’t need a game “winning” drive.  
 

with a better schedule on paper and more weapons, we can see if Allen really is the man or along for the ride.

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm not sure you can really say you don't care about his consistency. To my mind the 2019 version of Josh tops out at 9 to 10 wins and maybe a wildcard playoff victory. If he can just become that little bit more consistent on the routine stuff without losing the heroball splash plays..... then he could be a Championship winning Quarterback. But he does have to get more consistent. 

Careful, this will get labeled as a hater.  But it’s completely true.  No one disputes Allen can make big plays.  But our offense would go in terrible droughts for long stretches and make games against bad teams much closer than they need to be.  Our defense saved us many teams.  With better offense and that terrible schedule, we mighT have won 12-13 games.  
 

Good news is this year will be the ultimate test.  If Allen progresses and the Bills make the playoffs with this schedule, we are all set.