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Broncos Spygate AKA Spygate II

JGMcD2

By JGMcD2
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JGMcD2

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I was reading up on some of the 2020 coaching candidates and got to Josh McDaniels. A friend of mine is a Browns fan who is pounding the table for McDaniels... I wanted to have a base of knowledge before I discuss anything because my only impression of him is that he’s a horrible leader (mostly after last year’s debacle with the Colts). My reading on him only strengthened my opinion lol. 2010 was JUST before I really got in to football so I didn’t have any recollection of this but I couldn’t help but laugh. 
 

Josh McDaniels was fired by the Broncos in 2010 after the NFL discovered Steve Scarnecchia (former Patriots video employee and son of longtime Patriots coach Dante) video taped 6 minutes of a San Francisco 49ers walkthrough in London. Scarnecchia was let go as well. 
 

It was stated that McDaniels didn’t view the video nor did he ask Scarnecchia to do it, we were supposed to believe Scarnecchia acted alone. 
 

I find it comical that we are supposed to believe the Patriots incident with the Jets in 2007 was isolated (according to them) and then all of a sudden when two Patriots disciples (with the organization from the beginning of their rise) go off on their own RANDOMLY have an isolated incident of their own in a season that they’re severely struggling to win. 
 

I am honestly surprised that this isn’t brought up more! 

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Hapless Bills Fan Hall of Famer

Hapless Bills Fan

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4 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

I was reading up on some of the 2020 coaching candidates and got to Josh McDaniels. A friend of mine is a Browns fan who is pounding the table for McDaniels... I wanted to have a base of knowledge before I discuss anything because my only impression of him is that he’s a horrible leader (mostly after last year’s debacle with the Colts). My reading on him only strengthened my opinion lol. 2010 was JUST before I really got in to football so I didn’t have any recollection of this but I couldn’t help but laugh. 
 

Josh McDaniels was fired by the Broncos in 2010 after the NFL discovered Steve Scarnecchia (former Patriots video employee and son of longtime Patriots coach Dante) video taped 6 minutes of a San Francisco 49ers walkthrough in London. Scarnecchia was let go as well. 
 

It was stated that McDaniels didn’t view the video nor did he ask Scarnecchia to do it, we were supposed to believe Scarnecchia acted alone. 
 

I find it comical that we are supposed to believe the Patriots incident with the Jets in 2007 was isolated (according to them) and then all of a sudden when two Patriots disciples (with the organization from the beginning of their rise) go off on their own RANDOMLY have an isolated incident of their own in a season that they’re severely struggling to win. 
 

I am honestly surprised that this isn’t brought up more! 

 

Well, I'll tell you my take on McDaniels for what it's worth.  It is twofold.

 

1) After a 2010 season in which newly-drafted Sam Bradford looked pretty decent with the then-StL Rams,  Shurmur left to take a HC position with the Browns (Don't do it, Pat!  Don't jump!).  McDaniels had just washed out of his Broncos job (the video was far from the only reason he was fired, BTW), and accepted an OC position under HC Spagnuolo. 

 

The Rams offense promptly sucked Great Giant Balls of Sucking Suckage and Bradford looked as though he'd never played a capable game in his life.

 

Now I'm not gonna tell ya the Rams offense was great under Shurmur the year before, but they had the same record as the Seasnakes and came within 10 points of winning the division and going to the playoffs.  Bradford honestly did look promising.  Threw 18 TDs, 220 ypg, 60% completions.   Not sure what system Shurmur runs - think it's WCO-ish.

 

Enter McDaniels.  Brings his Erhardt-Perkins system with him to install in its complex glory.   Bradford promptly regresses.  I kid you not, threw 6 TDs (injury cut short but still): 6 TDs and 6 INTs in 10 games.  Completion % dropped to 53%.  You could visibly see the gears grinding in Sam's head when he dropped back to pass and the offense all looked like the "not quite on the same page" guys.

 

It was fugly.

 

2) I thought the way McDaniels behaved towards the Colts was exemplified some of the most unprofessional behavior I'd ever heard of in a prospective NFL HC.  All my friends who are Pats fans think McD jilted the Colts because he was given a date and promised the reins to the Pats kingdom.

 

In conclusion, tell your friend to go ahead and pound the table for McDaniels - Great choice.

 

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GunnerBill Hall of Famer

GunnerBill

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3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I'll tell you my take on McDaniels for what it's worth.  It is twofold.

 

1) After a 2010 season in which newly-drafted Sam Bradford looked pretty decent with the then-StL Rams,  Shurmur left to take a HC position with the Browns (Don't do it, Pat!  Don't jump!).  McDaniels had just washed out of his Broncos job (the video was far from the only reason he was fired, BTW), and accepted an OC position under HC Spagnuolo. 

 

The Rams offense promptly sucked Great Giant Balls of Sucking Suckage and Bradford looked as though he'd never played a capable game in his life.

 

Now I'm not gonna tell ya the Rams offense was great under Shurmur the year before, but they had the same record as the Seasnakes and came within 10 points of winning the division and going to the playoffs.  Bradford honestly did look promising.  Threw 18 TDs, 220 ypg, 60% completions.   Not sure what system Shurmur runs - think it's WCO-ish.

 

Enter McDaniels.  Brings his Erhardt-Perkins system with him to install in its complex glory.   Bradford promptly regresses.  I kid you not, threw 6 TDs (injury cut short but still): 6 TDs and 6 INTs in 10 games.  Completion % dropped to 53%.  You could visibly see the gears grinding in Sam's head when he dropped back to pass and the offense all looked like the "not quite on the same page" guys.

 

It was fugly.

 

2) I thought the way McDaniels behaved towards the Colts was exemplified some of the most unprofessional behavior I'd ever heard of in a prospective NFL HC.  All my friends who are Pats fans think McD jilted the Colts because he was given a date and promised the reins to the Pats kingdom.

 

In conclusion, tell your friend to go ahead and pound the table for McDaniels - Great choice.

 

 

So I think Josh McDaniels can coach offense and there were other things at play that year in St Louis that were out of his control (thought Bradford certainly regressed). The years he was away in New England the offenses never quite seemed to have the same rhythm - whether that is just his fit with Brady or something else. They still put up points but they were never quite as visually impressive as either McDaniels spell. 

 

Whether he has the capability to be a head coach the jury still has to be out on that for me. Never been truly convinced he looks or feels like a leader. And the Colts thing was unforgivable in my eyes. If I was one of the other 31 owners there is certainly no way I would consider him for my HC job. I honestly believe if he is going to be an NFL HC again it will have to come in New England after Belichick. 

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Ayjent RFA

Ayjent

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5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I think Josh McDaniels can coach offense and there were other things at play that year in St Louis that were out of his control (thought Bradford certainly regressed). The years he was away in New England the offenses never quite seemed to have the same rhythm - whether that is just his fit with Brady or something else. They still put up points but they were never quite as visually impressive as either McDaniels spell. 

 

Whether he has the capability to be a head coach the jury still has to be out on that for me. Never been truly convinced he looks or feels like a leader. And the Colts thing was unforgivable in my eyes. If I was one of the other 31 owners there is certainly no way I would consider him for my HC job. I honestly believe if he is going to be an NFL HC again it will have to come in New England after Belichick. 

McDaniels has been a proven failure as a HC and like Todd Haley - is way too full of himself and it permeates into the locker room as a guy that is going to blame you before he blames himself.

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peterpan Veteran

peterpan

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 NE coordinators are all losers at their HC gigs because they only succeeded in NE due to cheating.  It's the same as all the bum, no name players that Excell there only to be out of the league immediately upon release.  They draft terribly but still win.  

 

Their success is100% due to cheating.  They are a middle of the road team without it.  

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Hapless Bills Fan Hall of Famer

Hapless Bills Fan

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7 minutes ago, peterpan said:

 NE coordinators are all losers at their HC gigs because they only succeeded in NE due to cheating.  It's the same as all the bum, no name players that Excell there only to be out of the league immediately upon release.  They draft terribly but still win.  

 

Their success is100% due to cheating.  They are a middle of the road team without it.  

 

I think this is a terrible take.  That's actually the sad irony of the Pats.  They are well coached.  They make good personnel decisions.  They have had a legit great QB and a series of legit great TE and WR and defensive players.  Their success is in no way 100% due to cheating.  They could be a good to great team without it.

 

However, the extreme sustained and enduring nature of their success is probably due to "ruthless pursuit of every competitive edge" as Sanchez said, ie, cheating in every way.

 

I think the reason that coaches and coordinators from NE have a mixed track record elsewhere is that Belicheck is a rigid control freak who doesn't share any info he doesn't need to.  "Just Do Your Job".  He keeps them more than busy doing whatever it is he assigns them to do.  So the assistant coaches, and especially the ones who are two steps down the food chain like Daboll, are left missing key pieces of how to make the whole car drive.  And the better "team players" they are (ie putting all into doing their job) the worse for them.

 

I think that's why we see Daboll scheme individual plays that are clever to brilliant and either work, or result in open guys, but overall as a whole the offense doesn't seem coherent and flexible.

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GunnerBill Hall of Famer

GunnerBill

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18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Such as?

(reminder: I live in St Louis and do follow the Rams, though never a fan)

 

I mainly was thinking about the ownership situation which I was reminded of by the Carolina situation. I think Kroenke (who I have lots of experience of from my other interest) came in as the majority owner and it was known he wanted his own guys and when the team started slow there seemed to be an inevitability that crept through the organisation. I also seem to remember some suggestion that Spags wanted more vets to win quick (probably knowing that the owner's finger was already on the trigger) and the GM at the time was advocating a more patient approach. I remember Bradford getting hit a lot after they had brought FA OL in. Reminded be of the year the Bills did that with Langston Walker et al and it failed miserably. 

 

I might be getting my years mixed up but wasn't that also the year Amendola went down for the season the first or second week? He was the only decent receiver on the team. Not saying McDaniels didn't do a poor job there or that Bradford didn't regress. But when I think about that year I think organisational tire fire. 

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4BillsintheBurgh

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38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think this is a terrible take.  That's actually the sad irony of the Pats.  They are well coached.  They make good personnel decisions.  They have had a legit great QB and a series of legit great TE and WR and defensive players.  Their success is in no way 100% due to cheating.  They could be a good to great team without it.

 

However, the extreme sustained and enduring nature of their success is probably due to "ruthless pursuit of every competitive edge" as Sanchez said, ie, cheating in every way.

 

I think the reason that coaches and coordinators from NE have a mixed track record elsewhere is that Belicheck is a rigid control freak who doesn't share any info he doesn't need to.  "Just Do Your Job".  He keeps them more than busy doing whatever it is he assigns them to do.  So the assistant coaches, and especially the ones who are two steps down the food chain like Daboll, are left missing key pieces of how to make the whole car drive.  And the better "team players" they are (ie putting all into doing their job) the worse for them.

 

I think that's why we see Daboll scheme individual plays that are clever to brilliant and either work, or result in open guys, but overall as a whole the offense doesn't seem coherent and flexible.

For me the reason the minions from the pats*** don't work out is the total effort of the staff it takes to run the system. You need everyone on that staff to be giving the kind of effort that is difficult to manage for a lot of folks. I don't think any of the assistants don't understand what it takes, it's just impossible to find that many folks so committed in a year or two, because if it takes longer than that you're out of a job. 

This also happens to be why I believe brady is the not goat at qb, he is simply the best qb of the best system ever devised. If brady goes to another team he would flounder and look nothing like "himself" just as many of these former assistant coaches have.

Edited by 4BillsintheBurgh
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Mr. WEO Hall of Famer

Mr. WEO

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5 minutes ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

For me the reason the minions from the pats*** don't work out is the total effort of the staff it takes to run the system. You need everyone on that staff to be giving the kind of effort that is difficult to manage for a lot of folks. I don't think any of the assistants don't understand what it takes, it's just impossible to find that many folks so committed in a year or two, because if it takes longer than that you're out of a job. 

This also happens to be why I believe brady is the not goat at qb, he is simply the best qb of the best system ever devised. If brady goes to another team he would flounder and look nothing like "himself" just as many of these former assistant coaches have.

 

Would you say the same for Brees?

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dave mcbride Hall of Famer

dave mcbride

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11 hours ago, Best Player Available said:

Makes you wonder what that turd Patrica is up to in Detroit.

Whatever it is, it isn't working. Another Belichick*** coaching tree flunky. 

Bill O'Brien has done pretty well, and Flores looks like the real deal. Some people in the league actually feel Flores should be in the running for coach of the year given what he did with that woeful roster. 

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Hapless Bills Fan Hall of Famer

Hapless Bills Fan

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23 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mainly was thinking about the ownership situation which I was reminded of by the Carolina situation. I think Kroenke (who I have lots of experience of from my other interest) came in as the majority owner and it was known he wanted his own guys and when the team started slow there seemed to be an inevitability that crept through the organisation. I also seem to remember some suggestion that Spags wanted more vets to win quick (probably knowing that the owner's finger was already on the trigger) and the GM at the time was advocating a more patient approach. I remember Bradford getting hit a lot after they had brought FA OL in. Reminded be of the year the Bills did that with Langston Walker et al and it failed miserably. 

 

I might be getting my years mixed up but wasn't that also the year Amendola went down for the season the first or second week? He was the only decent receiver on the team. Not saying McDaniels didn't do a poor job there or that Bradford didn't regress. But when I think about that year I think organisational tire fire. 

 

Amendola did go down for the season.  It's true that the Rams didn't have a star corps of WR and it's true that Bradford got hit a lot, but he had people to throw to.  He held onto the ball too long.  A lot of it was not dissimilar to what we've seen with Allen at times - he would hold on to the ball and you could see the gears grinding as he tried to process what he was supposed to do given what he was seeing.

 

McDaniels had a lot to do with that.  He brought in a very complex offensive system and a thick complex playbook that was completely different from what they'd had the year before, and he did a lot of what Daboll tried to do initially, trying to create "surprise" for the defense by unusual use of personnel instead of just putting the best personnel in the best position to make plays.

 

Bringing in McDaniels and Bradford's apparent regression were a big part of what sent Spagnulo out the door after 2.

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GunnerBill Hall of Famer

GunnerBill

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59 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Amendola did go down for the season.  It's true that the Rams didn't have a star corps of WR and it's true that Bradford got hit a lot, but he had people to throw to.  He held onto the ball too long.  A lot of it was not dissimilar to what we've seen with Allen at times - he would hold on to the ball and you could see the gears grinding as he tried to process what he was supposed to do given what he was seeing.

 

McDaniels had a lot to do with that.  He brought in a very complex offensive system and a thick complex playbook that was completely different from what they'd had the year before, and he did a lot of what Daboll tried to do initially, trying to create "surprise" for the defense by unusual use of personnel instead of just putting the best personnel in the best position to make plays.

 

Bringing in McDaniels and Bradford's apparent regression were a big part of what sent Spagnulo out the door after 2.

 

I don't disagree but there were things happening inside the building around the ownership change that helped that season go south. I don't think McDaniels did a great job but I also think it is unfair to put a lot of it just on him. I think Spags was basically done for when they lost their first 3 and I think everyone in the building knew it. 

Edited by GunnerBill
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