Bengals accuse Pats employee of videotaping their play calls

[mannc]

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

I might not have the same thinking as others. But if I am a HOF voter I do hold these scandals against Brady and BB when it comes time to vote. 
 

IMO their legacy is tainted enough that they don’t get in first Ballot like many think. They get in but with these scandals I keep them off the first Ballot and make them wait. The problem is the voters are the same ones that routinely make excuses for them. 

No different, really, than baseball keeping the steroid cheats out of the baseball HoF; just a different form of cheating.

[Steptide]

The best punishment woukd be the Patriots losing to the Bengals and the bills winning sunday night. What a fun week it would be 

[Reed83HOF]

19 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

This is hilarious. Sorry if already posted. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patriots/2019/12/10/patriots-may-deserve-benefit-doubt-this-one/PGTvBxvnyKxoTi8epoOVcK/story.html%3foutputType=amp
 

 

This seems like this should be a link to peter pan...

[NoSaint]

3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

My problem is this: what possible reason could the film crew have to shoot the Bengals' sideline for 8 full minutes of game time?

 

Well, that's one of my problems. There's also the matter of why only the visiting team was informed, and how it's possible that an organization as detailed and as publicly notorious for unsavory action as NE****** could not make absolutely, 100% certain that anyone associated with them follows procedure to a tee.

 

Then there's the whole massive coincidence that this occurs the very week prior to them playing the team whose sideline they filmed.

 

Not to mention that the spygate article specifically mentions having built-in excuses in place such as "shooting a team documentary" and wearing non-team apparel. Oh, and the crew was shooting from a location in the box where they didn't belong.

 

For good measure, they also asked if they could just delete the footage and forget about it.

 

It absolutely stinks.

I agree with much of it but will offer a few points for the sake of someone throwing out counter points here instead of just piling on. 

 

1) the guys an advance scout, right? His job is to be at their next opponent so any coverage of him would by definition come at a suspicious time 

 

2) we project a lot of BBs personality across the organization here. I agree that he’s incredibly detail oriented. I’m not sure he’s involved in mid-season web content on that level. Unless there’s a nefarious use behind the scenes I can’t see him touching it. 

 

3) if you were filming someone and someone called you on getting a shot you couldn’t have, I’d assume you’d offer to delete it. 
 

ultimately, if he has the full 8 mins of the sideline I think they get hammered. If they don’t, it’ll be a relative non issue. 

[Rochesterfan]

4 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

My problem is this: what possible reason could the film crew have to shoot the Bengals' sideline for 8 full minutes of game time?

 

Well, that's one of my problems. There's also the matter of why only the visiting team was informed, and how it's possible that an organization as detailed and as publicly notorious for unsavory action as NE****** could not make absolutely, 100% certain that anyone associated with them follows procedure to a tee.

 

Then there's the whole massive coincidence that this occurs the very week prior to them playing the team whose sideline they filmed.

 

Not to mention that the spygate article specifically mentions having built-in excuses in place such as "shooting a team documentary" and wearing non-team apparel. Oh, and the crew was shooting from a location in the box where they didn't belong.

 

For good measure, they also asked if they could just delete the footage and forget about it.

 

It absolutely stinks.

 

I will not absolve the Pats of Cheating or whatever they did in this issue, but there are a few massive issues with your take.

 

First - the Browns were the home team and they were informed of the crew being on site and doing the filming.  The NFL and the Bengals should have been informed, but if the true intent was to get info about how advanced scouting works - they really only needed to get permission of the home team to have a camera in the booth.

 

Second - what does an advance scout do - he records plays, signals, situations, anything that is going on that can prepare the team for the upcoming game.  Again not to believe the Pats, but if you are doing a discussion on all of that and you want to run video under the discussion- it would make perfect sense to film what he is looking at.  He is watching the Bengals sideline - that is what I would want running underneath so as he talks about his job - you can show what he is doing.

 

The conspiracy that it just happens to be their upcoming opponent in the Bengals makes sense because that is where the advanced scout would be.  The advanced scout is not being sent to a team they are not playing - he is going to their next opponent to begin gather advanced intel - so that makes complete sense that it would occur at that game.

 

Look - none of that is to say that this is not 100% a bull pucky lie to film upcoming opponents- I would not put that past the Pats, but it could also be 100% a true innocent mistake.  The issue is that NE does not - nor should they - get any benefit of the doubt because they have already done this and because this follows the exact pattern given in the past about how to handle this situation.

 

The problem is I really do not know which it is and I am not sure how you could ever tell.  There is enough plausible deniability that this could go 100% either way.  The admission by the Pats was an acknowledgement that the film crew was wrong, but not that the football side did anything wrong.  The fact that this film crew - has been given permission previously to film the Pats sideline as they previewed other jobs blurs the line even more as they did not have an issue doing that - why is this different.

 

I think in the end - the NFL should definitely punish the team - fairly heftily- but unless there is something connecting it to the football side - I do not punish Belichick.  A fine and loss of another pick - highest 1st rounder - as a start because ultimately they are responsible for the functionality of their crew, but if you find anything that shows knowledge of this and understanding from the football side - they should burn it down. 

[Franco_92]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I will not absolve the Pats of Cheating or whatever they did in this issue, but there are a few massive issues with your take.

 

First - the Browns were the home team and they were informed of the crew being on site and doing the filming.  The NFL and the Bengals should have been informed, but if the true intent was to get info about how advanced scouting works - they really only needed to get permission of the home team to have a camera in the booth.

 

Second - what does an advance scout do - he records plays, signals, situations, anything that is going on that can prepare the team for the upcoming game.  Again not to believe the Pats, but if you are doing a discussion on all of that and you want to run video under the discussion- it would make perfect sense to film what he is looking at.  He is watching the Bengals sideline - that is what I would want running underneath so as he talks about his job - you can show what he is doing.

 

The conspiracy that it just happens to be their upcoming opponent in the Bengals makes sense because that is where the advanced scout would be.  The advanced scout is not being sent to a team they are not playing - he is going to their next opponent to begin gather advanced intel - so that makes complete sense that it would occur at that game.

 

Look - none of that is to say that this is not 100% a bull pucky lie to film upcoming opponents- I would not put that past the Pats, but it could also be 100% a true innocent mistake.  The issue is that NE does not - nor should they - get any benefit of the doubt because they have already done this and because this follows the exact pattern given in the past about how to handle this situation.

 

The problem is I really do not know which it is and I am not sure how you could ever tell.  There is enough plausible deniability that this could go 100% either way.  The admission by the Pats was an acknowledgement that the film crew was wrong, but not that the football side did anything wrong.  The fact that this film crew - has been given permission previously to film the Pats sideline as they previewed other jobs blurs the line even more as they did not have an issue doing that - why is this different.

 

I think in the end - the NFL should definitely punish the team - fairly heftily- but unless there is something connecting it to the football side - I do not punish Belichick.  A fine and loss of another pick - highest 1st rounder - as a start because ultimately they are responsible for the functionality of their crew, but if you find anything that shows knowledge of this and understanding from the football side - they should burn it down. 

This should be the only post in this thread. The rest is wild speculation about coverups asserted as fact and a post-liking circle-jerk in response

[ColoradoBills]

4 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

Where was Belichick when Thurman lost his helmet in Minnesota??? 

 

 

IMO the ONLY thing that will stop them is to take away a Trophy.  (or 2 or ....) 

 

 

Ban the Pats**** from the 2020 Draft.

Confiscate their 2020 picks and raffle them off to the 2019 New England opponents.

[Jauronimo]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

I agree with much of it but will offer a few points for the sake of someone throwing out counter points here instead of just piling on. 

 

1) the guys an advance scout, right? His job is to be at their next opponent so any coverage of him would by definition come at a suspicious time 

 

2) we project a lot of BBs personality across the organization here. I agree that he’s incredibly detail oriented. I’m not sure he’s involved in mid-season web content on that level. Unless there’s a nefarious use behind the scenes I can’t see him touching it. 

 

3) if you were filming someone and someone called you on getting a shot you couldn’t have, I’d assume you’d offer to delete it. 
 

ultimately, if he has the full 8 mins of the sideline I think they get hammered. If they don’t, it’ll be a relative non issue. 

Why does he have ANY footage of the Bengals sideline?  The interview of the advanced scout was reportedly over before kickoff.

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I will not absolve the Pats of Cheating or whatever they did in this issue, but there are a few massive issues with your take.

 

First - the Browns were the home team and they were informed of the crew being on site and doing the filming.  The NFL and the Bengals should have been informed, but if the true intent was to get info about how advanced scouting works - they really only needed to get permission of the home team to have a camera in the booth.

 

Second - what does an advance scout do - he records plays, signals, situations, anything that is going on that can prepare the team for the upcoming game.  Again not to believe the Pats, but if you are doing a discussion on all of that and you want to run video under the discussion- it would make perfect sense to film what he is looking at.  He is watching the Bengals sideline - that is what I would want running underneath so as he talks about his job - you can show what he is doing.

 

The conspiracy that it just happens to be their upcoming opponent in the Bengals makes sense because that is where the advanced scout would be.  The advanced scout is not being sent to a team they are not playing - he is going to their next opponent to begin gather advanced intel - so that makes complete sense that it would occur at that game.

 

Look - none of that is to say that this is not 100% a bull pucky lie to film upcoming opponents- I would not put that past the Pats, but it could also be 100% a true innocent mistake.  The issue is that NE does not - nor should they - get any benefit of the doubt because they have already done this and because this follows the exact pattern given in the past about how to handle this situation.

 

The problem is I really do not know which it is and I am not sure how you could ever tell.  There is enough plausible deniability that this could go 100% either way.  The admission by the Pats was an acknowledgement that the film crew was wrong, but not that the football side did anything wrong.  The fact that this film crew - has been given permission previously to film the Pats sideline as they previewed other jobs blurs the line even more as they did not have an issue doing that - why is this different.

 

I think in the end - the NFL should definitely punish the team - fairly heftily- but unless there is something connecting it to the football side - I do not punish Belichick.  A fine and loss of another pick - highest 1st rounder - as a start because ultimately they are responsible for the functionality of their crew, but if you find anything that shows knowledge of this and understanding from the football side - they should burn it down. 

 

There is absolutely no possibility that an organization that was fined half a million dollars and docked a 1st round pick for shooting video of a team's coaching staff would not make it thoroughly clear that videotaping the other team's coaching staff sending in offensive signals for the entire first quarter is not okay.

 

Suppose that what you're saying is true. They want to run video under what the scout is saying. Don't you suppose that, at some point, the discussion of "are you looking at the other coaches during the game to pick up on signals?" had to take place? Wouldn't someone, anyone, know enough to say "yeah, but don't film that; we got in enormous amounts of trouble for that once already"?

 

Nobody in the entire organization knew that the team could get in trouble for this? Forgive me, but that's simply impossible to believe. And even if I did believe it, then the utter stupidity of said organization to be so blind to the potential for a screw up should net them a punishment on its face.

[BuffaloSol]

6 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

My problem is this: what possible reason could the film crew have to shoot the Bengals' sideline for 8 full minutes of game time?

 

Well, that's one of my problems. There's also the matter of why only the visiting team was informed, and how it's possible that an organization as detailed and as publicly notorious for unsavory action as NE****** could not make absolutely, 100% certain that anyone associated with them follows procedure to a tee.

 

Then there's the whole massive coincidence that this occurs the very week prior to them playing the team whose sideline they filmed.

 

Not to mention that the spygate article specifically mentions having built-in excuses in place such as "shooting a team documentary" and wearing non-team apparel. Oh, and the crew was shooting from a location in the box where they didn't belong.

 

For good measure, they also asked if they could just delete the footage and forget about it.

 

It absolutely stinks.

It's obvious to the objective observer that they took their built-in excuses a step further to cover their ass, they needed a real back story. So you need to also have a real documentary, instead of fake press credentials.

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I will not absolve the Pats of Cheating or whatever they did in this issue, but there are a few massive issues with your take.

 

First - the Browns were the home team and they were informed of the crew being on site and doing the filming.  The NFL and the Bengals should have been informed, but if the true intent was to get info about how advanced scouting works - they really only needed to get permission of the home team to have a camera in the booth.

 

Second - what does an advance scout do - he records plays, signals, situations, anything that is going on that can prepare the team for the upcoming game.  Again not to believe the Pats, but if you are doing a discussion on all of that and you want to run video under the discussion- it would make perfect sense to film what he is looking at.  He is watching the Bengals sideline - that is what I would want running underneath so as he talks about his job - you can show what he is doing.

 

The conspiracy that it just happens to be their upcoming opponent in the Bengals makes sense because that is where the advanced scout would be.  The advanced scout is not being sent to a team they are not playing - he is going to their next opponent to begin gather advanced intel - so that makes complete sense that it would occur at that game.

 

Look - none of that is to say that this is not 100% a bull pucky lie to film upcoming opponents- I would not put that past the Pats, but it could also be 100% a true innocent mistake.  The issue is that NE does not - nor should they - get any benefit of the doubt because they have already done this and because this follows the exact pattern given in the past about how to handle this situation.

 

The problem is I really do not know which it is and I am not sure how you could ever tell.  There is enough plausible deniability that this could go 100% either way.  The admission by the Pats was an acknowledgement that the film crew was wrong, but not that the football side did anything wrong.  The fact that this film crew - has been given permission previously to film the Pats sideline as they previewed other jobs blurs the line even more as they did not have an issue doing that - why is this different.

 

I think in the end - the NFL should definitely punish the team - fairly heftily- but unless there is something connecting it to the football side - I do not punish Belichick.  A fine and loss of another pick - highest 1st rounder - as a start because ultimately they are responsible for the functionality of their crew, but if you find anything that shows knowledge of this and understanding from the football side - they should burn it down. 

Except the Advance scout asked to delete the footage, why would he do that if it was an "innocent mistake"? 

[BuffaloSol]

55 minutes ago, arcane said:

This should be the only post in this thread. The rest is wild speculation about coverups asserted as fact and a post-liking circle-jerk in response

Except he didn't mention that the scout asked to delete the footage.....

[Rochesterfan]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

There is absolutely no possibility that an organization that was fined half a million dollars and docked a 1st round pick for shooting video of a team's coaching staff would not make it thoroughly clear that videotaping the other team's coaching staff sending in offensive signals for the entire first quarter is not okay.

 

Suppose that what you're saying is true. They want to run video under what the scout is saying. Don't you suppose that, at some point, the discussion of "are you looking at the other coaches during the game to pick up on signals?" had to take place? Wouldn't someone, anyone, know enough to say "yeah, but don't film that; we got in enormous amounts of trouble for that once already"?

 

Nobody in the entire organization knew that the team could get in trouble for this? Forgive me, but that's simply impossible to believe. And even if I did believe it, then the utter stupidity of said organization to be so blind to the potential for a screw up should net them a punishment on its face.

 

I would agree 100% if it was Pats video crews doing the taping, but like many of these produced documentaries- it is typically outsourced to independent film crews.  
 

I have no idea what they have been told or not, but it was already stated on previous videos - this crew was allowed to tape activities on the Pats sideline of coaches and players for other segments of the documentary.  My guess would be a true independent crew would not see the difference in taping the Pats sideline for earlier pieces and taping the Bengals sideline to roll under the advanced scout job function.

 

Look - I totally agree that it looks really bad looking through the lens of the Pats history, but I can totally buy where this type of thing could happen by a crew that doing what they consider to be their job in filming this segment.

 

Things like this happen all the time where something is done and posted or filmed and you do not realize the impact because you are looking at it from one perspective and not another.  The Sam Darnold seeing ghosts comment - never should have aired live that night - it was a bad look by a production team that makes for good TV, but is not something they would allow to go out.  
 

I totally agree that that the screw up in an of itself deserves punishment and I stated as much.  What I can not say is whether I believe his was done deliberately and the entire organization deserves punishment - or if this was a true accidental move - where they deserve punishment, but not at an individual coaching/owner level.

 

I could easily see something like this happening with the Bills production crew - doing video of draft work or front office management and caching something on tape that is inappropriate or against the rules and it being a rue accident.  I also understand the Pats have already used up their credit with the previous cheating and you are free o assume the worst - I have no issue with that - that is totally your prerogative and right - I just am waiting to find out if this is the only situation or not because there is no reason to be filming the Bengals - that would be a stupid team to get caught against.

[Jauronimo]

2 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I would agree 100% if it was Pats video crews doing the taping, but like many of these produced documentaries- it is typically outsourced to independent film crews.  
 

I have no idea what they have been told or not, but it was already stated on previous videos - this crew was allowed to tape activities on the Pats sideline of coaches and players for other segments of the documentary.  My guess would be a true independent crew would not see the difference in taping the Pats sideline for earlier pieces and taping the Bengals sideline to roll under the advanced scout job function.

 

Look - I totally agree that it looks really bad looking through the lens of the Pats history, but I can totally buy where this type of thing could happen by a crew that doing what they consider to be their job in filming this segment.

 

Things like this happen all the time where something is done and posted or filmed and you do not realize the impact because you are looking at it from one perspective and not another.  The Sam Darnold seeing ghosts comment - never should have aired live that night - it was a bad look by a production team that makes for good TV, but is not something they would allow to go out.  
 

I totally agree that that the screw up in an of itself deserves punishment and I stated as much.  What I can not say is whether I believe his was done deliberately and the entire organization deserves punishment - or if this was a true accidental move - where they deserve punishment, but not at an individual coaching/owner level.

 

I could easily see something like this happening with the Bills production crew - doing video of draft work or front office management and caching something on tape that is inappropriate or against the rules and it being a rue accident.  I also understand the Pats have already used up their credit with the previous cheating and you are free o assume the worst - I have no issue with that - that is totally your prerogative and right - I just am waiting to find out if this is the only situation or not because there is no reason to be filming the Bengals - that would be a stupid team to get caught against.

Do you consider Kraft Sports Productions to be an independent 3rd party production company?

[BuffaloSol]

4 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I would agree 100% if it was Pats video crews doing the taping, but like many of these produced documentaries- it is typically outsourced to independent film crews.  
 

I have no idea what they have been told or not, but it was already stated on previous videos - this crew was allowed to tape activities on the Pats sideline of coaches and players for other segments of the documentary.  My guess would be a true independent crew would not see the difference in taping the Pats sideline for earlier pieces and taping the Bengals sideline to roll under the advanced scout job function.

 

Look - I totally agree that it looks really bad looking through the lens of the Pats history, but I can totally buy where this type of thing could happen by a crew that doing what they consider to be their job in filming this segment.

 

Things like this happen all the time where something is done and posted or filmed and you do not realize the impact because you are looking at it from one perspective and not another.  The Sam Darnold seeing ghosts comment - never should have aired live that night - it was a bad look by a production team that makes for good TV, but is not something they would allow to go out.  
 

I totally agree that that the screw up in an of itself deserves punishment and I stated as much.  What I can not say is whether I believe his was done deliberately and the entire organization deserves punishment - or if this was a true accidental move - where they deserve punishment, but not at an individual coaching/owner level.

 

I could easily see something like this happening with the Bills production crew - doing video of draft work or front office management and caching something on tape that is inappropriate or against the rules and it being a rue accident.  I also understand the Pats have already used up their credit with the previous cheating and you are free o assume the worst - I have no issue with that - that is totally your prerogative and right - I just am waiting to find out if this is the only situation or not because there is no reason to be filming the Bengals - that would be a stupid team to get caught against.

Again..... why would they ask to delete the film then?

[Rochesterfan]

20 minutes ago, BuffaloSol said:

It's obvious to the objective observer that they took their built-in excuses a step further to cover their ass, they needed a real back story. So you need to also have a real documentary, instead of fake press credentials.

Except the Advance scout asked to delete the footage, why would he do that if it was an "innocent mistake"? 

 

The film crew asked to delete the footage not the scout.  
 

If you were told that you took photos of something inappropriate- what would you suggest?  My party was in Vegas years ago and they were taking pictures of some lovely ladies on the strip being very inappropriate and their “manager” stopped them and basically said you can’t take photos and as being aggressive.  The first though was of crap - can I get rid of the photos and not get in an further trouble here.

 

It is a perfectly valid response in both an innocent situation and if they were doing something completely illegal.  The response is the same - I still goes to the reason why it was done and if it was a one time or many time thing.

 

 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, BuffaloSol said:

Again..... why would they ask to delete the film then?

 

This.  They were told what to videotape.  It's obvious to (almost) everyone and the NFL has to come down hard on them.

[BuffaloSol]

1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The film crew asked to delete the footage not the scout.  
 

If you were told that you took photos of something inappropriate- what would you suggest?  My party was in Vegas years ago and they were taking pictures of some lovely ladies on the strip being very inappropriate and their “manager” stopped them and basically said you can’t take photos and as being aggressive.  The first though was of crap - can I get rid of the photos and not get in an further trouble here.

 

It is a perfectly valid response in both an innocent situation and if they were doing something completely illegal.  The response is the same - I still goes to the reason why it was done and if it was a one time or many time thing.

 

 

So you agree they knew it was against the rules even though they were a "third party production crew?" 

[Rochesterfan]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Do you consider Kraft Sports Productions to be an independent 3rd party production company?

Not anymore independent than the crew from Pegula sports and entertainment, but they sometimes hire external 3 rd party camera crews to do some footage.

 

Everyone is doing these cool behind the scenes documentaries now for added content and many of them hire people that are not part of the company.  It could lead to nefarious activities or be totally innocent.  
 

The Pats do not deserve any benefit of the doubt, but it also does not mean that Belicheck should be fined and suspended for this.  As I stated - I think the team deserves heavy punishment- big fine and loss of highest 1st round pick - no matter what.  I also think if they can link it back to the football side- you burn it down - forfeits, suspensions, etc.  

 

 

[Jauronimo]

5 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The film crew asked to delete the footage not the scout.  
 

If you were told that you took photos of something inappropriate- what would you suggest?  My party was in Vegas years ago and they were taking pictures of some lovely ladies on the strip being very inappropriate and their “manager” stopped them and basically said you can’t take photos and as being aggressive.  The first though was of crap - can I get rid of the photos and not get in an further trouble here.

 

It is a perfectly valid response in both an innocent situation and if they were doing something completely illegal.  The response is the same - I still goes to the reason why it was done and if it was a one time or many time thing.

 

 

The interview with the advanced scout was done before kickoff.  Why was the "independent crew" employed by Robert Kraft still filming from the booth after the interview was concluded and why was the subject of this filming focused on the Bengals sideline?  

[ColoradoBills]

6 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Not anymore independent than the crew from Pegula sports and entertainment, but they sometimes hire external 3 rd party camera crews to do some footage.

 

Everyone is doing these cool behind the scenes documentaries now for added content and many of them hire people that are not part of the company.  It could lead to nefarious activities or be totally innocent.  
 

The Pats do not deserve any benefit of the doubt, but it also does not mean that Belicheck should be fined and suspended for this.  As I stated - I think the team deserves heavy punishment- big fine and loss of highest 1st round pick - no matter what.  I also think if they can link it back to the football side- you burn it down - forfeits, suspensions, etc.  

 

 

 

That's already happened.  Like I posted up thread they deserve to lose ALL their remaining 2020 picks and those picks should be

rewarded in a lottery for the teams they cheated against this past year.

[Rochesterfan]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloSol said:

So you agree they knew it was against the rules even though they were a "third party production crew?" 

 

From the accounts I have read - the Bengals security videotaped them taping the sideline.  They were doing it in plain view and not hiding it.  The security team then told them it was against the rules and that was when they stated “could we delete the film”.

 

It sounds to me like someone getting caught doing something wrong and trying to get out of trouble.  

 

Whether they knew or not depends solely on what lens you want to look through.  If you assume it was nefarious and they knew - it is a terrible look and signals guilt.  If you assume they are just some random guys hired to film a part of a series - then it is an accident and oh crud - how can I quickly make s right- I don’t need this - can I just get rid of it and we move on.

 

Either way - the Pats need to be punished.  The difference is the level of involvement- does it hit Belichek or not.

[whatdrought]

My question is, how can you punish them without going scorched earth on them? 

 

Either they broke a rule, and are worthy of punishment, or they didn't... If they did break the rule, doesn't their history demand some form of extreme punishment? I mean, doesn't the benefit of the doubt that it was probably an honest mistake go out the window when this is their second offense? 

[Rochesterfan]

9 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

The interview with the advanced scout was done before kickoff.  Why was the "independent crew" employed by Robert Kraft still filming from the booth after the interview was concluded and why was the subject of this filming focused on the Bengals sideline?  

 

Agreed and the plausible explanation is filming for the video undershorts and having the scout as a voice over.  The scout explaining what he looks for and then some video showing what that looks like.  The kind of thing that fans eat up to help better understand the function.

 

The nefarious reason is to cheat and provide the staff all of the calls during the game.

 

Both scenarios make equal sense and either or both could be true.  That is why the original spy gate was set-up this way and why it makes sense.  The end result is that the Pats cheated - the level needs to be determined and that is totally influenced by what you believe.

[ColoradoBills]

Pats****

[Rochesterfan]

3 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

My question is, how can you punish them without going scorched earth on them? 

 

Either they broke a rule, and are worthy of punishment, or they didn't... If they did break the rule, doesn't their history demand some form of extreme punishment? I mean, doesn't the benefit of the doubt that it was probably an honest mistake go out the window when this is their second offense? 

I guess I would turn it around - if you have no proof that Belicheck was involved or any players/coaches - how do you justify suspending or destroying their careers. 
 

The team should pay as an organization and the only major way to do that is fines and loss of draft picks and I am fine there.  I would even suspend Kraft and give him a year away - until after 2021.
 

The problem is going to the next Step and suspending Belicheck or other coaches with no proof they had anything to do with it.  I am not ok just assuming that everyone is culpable and should be punished.  I also think they were not harsh enough last time- so if proof exists - scorch earth is correct.

[TheFunPolice]

Punishment is irrelevant.

 

The good part is that this is another very public reminder of who these guys are

[BuffaloSol]

1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

From the accounts I have read - the Bengals security videotaped them taping the sideline.  They were doing it in plain view and not hiding it.  The security team then told them it was against the rules and that was when they stated “could we delete the film”.

 

It sounds to me like someone getting caught doing something wrong and trying to get out of trouble.  

 

Whether they knew or not depends solely on what lens you want to look through.  If you assume it was nefarious and they knew - it is a terrible look and signals guilt.  If you assume they are just some random guys hired to film a part of a series - then it is an accident and oh crud - how can I quickly make s right- I don’t need this - can I just get rid of it and we move on.

 

Either way - the Pats need to be punished.  The difference is the level of involvement- does it hit Belichek or not.

It obviously it should hit Belicheat, they did this before during Spygate. Literally almost the exact same thing except this time it might be a real documentary being used as cover.

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Agreed and the plausible explanation is filming for the video undershorts and having the scout as a voice over.  The scout explaining what he looks for and then some video showing what that looks like.  The kind of thing that fans eat up to help better understand the function.

 

The nefarious reason is to cheat and provide the staff all of the calls during the game.

 

Both scenarios make equal sense and either or both could be true.  That is why the original spy gate was set-up this way and why it makes sense.  The end result is that the Pats cheated - the level needs to be determined and that is totally influenced by what you believe.

I find it extremely hard to believe that the video undershorts would only be interested in the Bengals sideline at the expense of the plays on the field. Unless of course an Advanced Scout just watches sidelines.  

 

Both scenarios do not make equal sense when the innocent scenario requires a film crew that is paid by Robert Kraft to unwittingly make all the wrong moves at all the wrong times and, by sheer dumb luck, commit the exact same transgression for which they've already been caught, convicted, and punished.  Meanwhile, the guilty scenario only involves repeat offense from known repeat offenders.

 

The Pats have thumbed their nose at the league for over a decade.  This is a pattern of behavior for an organization that institutionally looks for advantages outside of the rules of the National Football League.  Why anyone would give them the benefit of the doubt is beyond my comprehension.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jauronimo

[Augie]

45 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

That's already happened.  Like I posted up thread they deserve to lose ALL their remaining 2020 picks and those picks should be

rewarded in a lottery for the teams they cheated against this past year.

 

It seems only right that punishment gets escalated for repeat offenders. 

[leonbus23]

3 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I will not absolve the Pats of Cheating or whatever they did in this issue, but there are a few massive issues with your take.

 

First - the Browns were the home team and they were informed of the crew being on site and doing the filming.  The NFL and the Bengals should have been informed, but if the true intent was to get info about how advanced scouting works - they really only needed to get permission of the home team to have a camera in the booth.

 

Second - what does an advance scout do - he records plays, signals, situations, anything that is going on that can prepare the team for the upcoming game.  Again not to believe the Pats, but if you are doing a discussion on all of that and you want to run video under the discussion- it would make perfect sense to film what he is looking at.  He is watching the Bengals sideline - that is what I would want running underneath so as he talks about his job - you can show what he is doing.

 

The conspiracy that it just happens to be their upcoming opponent in the Bengals makes sense because that is where the advanced scout would be.  The advanced scout is not being sent to a team they are not playing - he is going to their next opponent to begin gather advanced intel - so that makes complete sense that it would occur at that game.

 

Look - none of that is to say that this is not 100% a bull pucky lie to film upcoming opponents- I would not put that past the Pats, but it could also be 100% a true innocent mistake.  The issue is that NE does not - nor should they - get any benefit of the doubt because they have already done this and because this follows the exact pattern given in the past about how to handle this situation.

 

The problem is I really do not know which it is and I am not sure how you could ever tell.  There is enough plausible deniability that this could go 100% either way.  The admission by the Pats was an acknowledgement that the film crew was wrong, but not that the football side did anything wrong.  The fact that this film crew - has been given permission previously to film the Pats sideline as they previewed other jobs blurs the line even more as they did not have an issue doing that - why is this different.

 

I think in the end - the NFL should definitely punish the team - fairly heftily- but unless there is something connecting it to the football side - I do not punish Belichick.  A fine and loss of another pick - highest 1st rounder - as a start because ultimately they are responsible for the functionality of their crew, but if you find anything that shows knowledge of this and understanding from the football side - they should burn it down. 

I suggest reading the chapter "Information at the Meteorological Stage" in the book Screened Out by Jean Baudrillard.

 

https://monoskop.org/File:Baudrillard_Jean_Screened_Out_2002.pdf

[whatdrought]

53 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

I guess I would turn it around - if you have no proof that Belicheck was involved or any players/coaches - how do you justify suspending or destroying their careers. 
 

The team should pay as an organization and the only major way to do that is fines and loss of draft picks and I am fine there.  I would even suspend Kraft and give him a year away - until after 2021.
 

The problem is going to the next Step and suspending Belicheck or other coaches with no proof they had anything to do with it.  I am not ok just assuming that everyone is culpable and should be punished.  I also think they were not harsh enough last time- so if proof exists - scorch earth is correct.

 

I would have then forfeit this upcoming game. That’s an institutional punishment that harms everyone, from top to bottom, without killing careers.

[IDBillzFan]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

This should be the only post in this thread. The rest is wild speculation about coverups asserted as fact and a post-liking circle-jerk in response

 

It's funny to me that a team that was caught cheating by spying on other teams is using the exact same method to spy on other teams, including the exact same explanation about what they were really doing under the name of Kraft videos, and anyone would consider it "wild speculation."
 

Cheaters cheat.

 

The Patriots* are cheaters. You can not deny this. They just got caught doing the exact same thing that was considered cheating years ago.

 

But hey...I'm sure it's just wild speculation...just like last time, right? 

 

 

 

 

 

[sven233]

I still say they should make them Playoff ineligible this year and next year.  Put the hammer down on them and show that cheating will not be tolerated, especially by a multiple time, repeat offender.  Taking away a draft pick or fining them does absolutely nothing to discourage them from doing it again and continue using any other cheating methods they have in place that haven't been caught yet.

 

OH.....AND RELEASE THE TAPE!!!!

[Augie]

I get a kick out of the “it’s too obvious to possibly be true” defense! 

 

I never cheated in school because I didn’t think that defense would work! I should have been a straight A student......maybe even the GOAT student? I was pretty decent, just needed that little something extra. 

 

[TheFunPolice]

Reputation and perception cannot be controlled and aren't up to the league.

 

Outside of Boston this story is a reminder that NE cheats. Maybe it wasn't "that bad" this time around, maybe it was. Does it matter?

 

This is why you have to win the hardware. Peyton Manning is sitting on his couch watching Brees and Brady vie to break his career passing record and there isn't a thing he can do about it. But win Super Bowl 54 and some guy can come in and throw for 75 TDs and 7000 yards in a season and you still will always be SB 54 champions. 

[ColoradoBills]

59 minutes ago, Augie said:

I get a kick out of the “it’s too obvious to possibly be true” defense! 

 

I never cheated in school because I didn’t think that defense would work! I should have been a straight A student......maybe even the GOAT student? I was pretty decent, just needed that little something extra. 

 

 

 

[NoSaint]

7 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Why does he have ANY footage of the Bengals sideline?  The interview of the advanced scout was reportedly over before kickoff.

my assumption, without reading ALL the articles is that of course the interview would be done before the game. You take his time and focus before he starts the core of his job, and then catch a few shots in the booth to show him doing what you just spoke about (at least what I imagine- a cheerleader you interview pregame, not dancing on the sideline... but you get a shot of her at the game for a similar piece, right?)
 

ultimately it’s a matter of living in reality and employees doing plenty of dumb stuff without thinking. 
 

If the dude got carried away filming B Roll and caught a play call or two, whatever. Send the fine and call it a day.
 

If the guy films 8 minutes of a coordinator, you lay the hammer 

the quality of the camera, the angle, etc... could complicate it but generally it sounds like a specific and verifiable accusation based on early reports I saw 

Edited December 13, 2019 by NoSaint

[GaryPinC]

8 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

my assumption, without reading ALL the articles is that of course the interview would be done before the game. You take his time and focus before he starts the core of his job, and then catch a few shots in the booth to show him doing what you just spoke about (at least what I imagine- a cheerleader you interview pregame, not dancing on the sideline... but you get a shot of her at the game for a similar piece, right?)
 

ultimately it’s a matter of living in reality and employees doing plenty of dumb stuff without thinking. 
 

If the dude got carried away filming B Roll and caught a play call or two, whatever. Send the fine and call it a day.
 

If the guy films 8 minutes of a coordinator, you lay the hammer 

the quality of the camera, the angle, etc... could complicate it but generally it sounds like a specific and verifiable accusation based on early reports I saw lol

Also check if they applied for press passes at other games they were scouting.  

[BringBackFergy]

10 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

Also check if they applied for press passes at other games they were scouting.  

Have to wonder how they amassed a record number of INT’s in the first 10 weeks (including three vs Buffalo). Would be pretty easy to teach your defense certain “calls” they might hear to put safeties and CB’s in the right spot at the right time to make the play on the ball. 
 

* I’ll go put my tinfoil hat on now*

[GaryPinC]

1 hour ago, BringBackFergy said:

Have to wonder how they amassed a record number of INT’s in the first 10 weeks (including three vs Buffalo). Would be pretty easy to teach your defense certain “calls” they might hear to put safeties and CB’s in the right spot at the right time to make the play on the ball. 
 

* I’ll go put my tinfoil hat on now*

I hear ya 100%.  If it's the Cheatriots there'll be other occurrences