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Lamar Jackson: I'll Be Having That Crow Pot Pie Now (edited title)


H2o

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5 hours ago, H2o said:

In the same light that I can see the growth in Allen and believe he is a special player, I can no longer deny the fact that Lamar Jackson is a special talent at the QB position either. Yes, he has a great coaching staff from top to bottom that has tailor made the offense around him. Yes, he has a good/great defense to back him up. Yes, he has had some rough patches in the same manner as Josh throwing the ball. But again I watch him yesterday against the Texans and the young man does not disappoint. I keep thinking he will falter, but on the biggest stage he always seems up to the task. He is surely not just another system product ala Kaepernick or Tyrod with Roman at the helm. He can do things on the field that we haven't seen in this league since Michael Vick in his early days with the Falcons and when he is on throwing the ball, he is on. Even on the days he may be off throwing the football he can still beat you with his legs like he did the Seahawks or the Patriots. People keep hyping all of these other match-ups as the next Brady/Manning like Mahomes/Jackson or Watson/Jackson, but I can see the battle being Allen/Jackson for years to come. Hopefully his style of play doesn't lead to injury and it remains to be seen whether this style is also sustainable at this level, but right now he is one of my favorite players to watch in the NFL outside of the Bills every week. 

I can deny it...

 

Give the league a year to adjust to his play and exploit his weaknesses. We have seen too many QBs crush it their first year, and then look human the next. Perhaps he is good, perhaps he is great, but I'd give it more time before I crowned him (or anyone with as little NFL playing time as he has had).

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5 hours ago, H2o said:

In the same light that I can see the growth in Allen and believe he is a special player, I can no longer deny the fact that Lamar Jackson is a special talent at the QB position either. Yes, he has a great coaching staff from top to bottom that has tailor made the offense around him. Yes, he has a good/great defense to back him up. Yes, he has had some rough patches in the same manner as Josh throwing the ball. But again I watch him yesterday against the Texans and the young man does not disappoint. I keep thinking he will falter, but on the biggest stage he always seems up to the task. He is surely not just another system product ala Kaepernick or Tyrod with Roman at the helm. He can do things on the field that we haven't seen in this league since Michael Vick in his early days with the Falcons and when he is on throwing the ball, he is on. Even on the days he may be off throwing the football he can still beat you with his legs like he did the Seahawks or the Patriots. People keep hyping all of these other match-ups as the next Brady/Manning like Mahomes/Jackson or Watson/Jackson, but I can see the battle being Allen/Jackson for years to come. Hopefully his style of play doesn't lead to injury and it remains to be seen whether this style is also sustainable at this level, but right now he is one of my favorite players to watch in the NFL outside of the Bills every week. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating Lamar and his success.  I want to see every draft pick become that special player.

 

7 minutes ago, Paulus said:

I can deny it...

 

Give the league a year to adjust to his play and exploit his weaknesses. We have seen too many QBs crush it their first year, and then look human the next. Perhaps he is good, perhaps he is great, but I'd give it more time before I crowned him (or anyone with as little NFL playing time as he has had).

Of course, and that is true for any rookie through about year three, and thus the 4yr rookie contract.  Some need more than a year or two to adjust to the NFL.  Others peter out after a couple of years.  Lamar is having a great year.  But on every one of his runs, I find myself waiting for that train to come out of nowhere and flatten the kid.  I've seen that too often.  How many licks can the kid take?  Yet to be determined, right?

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Yeah I have come out saying I was wrong as well, however, he still doesn't see the whole field, whereas Josh has made a huge gain in that regard.  I'd still take Josh coming out, but I am pulling for the kid, Jackson, good story, good kid, but we need to beat them a few weeks.  :)

 

Tim-

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2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

I was wrong about Jackson.  He needs to win a playoff game though--his last was cringe-worthy.

 

I'm behind Allen, but he's an order of magnitude below the way Jackson is playing right now.

You’re right. But it was insane how reacted to a rookie starting his first playoff game. I bet there are a bunch of great qbs who struggled in their first playoff starts.  

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1 minute ago, D521646 said:

Yeah I have come out saying I was wrong as well, however, he still doesn't see the whole field, whereas Josh has made a huge gain in that regard.  I'd still take Josh coming out, but I am pulling for the kid, Jackson, good story, good kid, but we need to beat them a few weeks.  :)

 

Tim-

Yes, he does still lock onto a single guy and take off if he's not open. He does still also seem to not go through progressions at times. Josh has done these same things. I really think the NFL is seeing the next great crop of QB's rising who will carry the game on after the Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and Rivers of the NFL are gone. Even with that, the things we are seeing from Jackson, the young man is still more successful than I thought he would be. I am man enough to admit that. Now he may get hammered by someone one day and it changes the trajectory of his career. Who knows? Right now though, even if you are stopping him throwing the ball, he can light you up to the tune of 150 and 2 or 3 TD's with his legs. He is a true dual threat unlike anyone I have ever seen outside of Michael Vick. 

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52 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

No.  Lamar Jackson is a rock head.  Watch him speak

 

Bradshaw is too... but the 70s are different than 2019 when it is basically high tech intelligence  warfare on a football field.

 

 

Racial?

 

One of the best leaders of men in the NFL is Russell Wilson

Agreed. When I say there’s sometimes a racial undertone to the “leader of men” thing, I’m just talking about a historical fact: many black QBs didn’t get a fair shot because they were dinged based ostensibly on some such intangible factor. Thankfully that’s a thing of the past. But in general, we don’t know a “leader” in the NFL until he’s been given a chance to lead. Hence my comment that all kinds of personalities have become, in retrospect, great leaders. Maybe if Lamar keeps winning we will be saying that about him too. 

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3 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Agreed. When I say there’s sometimes a racial undertone to the “leader of men” thing, I’m just talking about a historical fact: many black QBs didn’t get a fair shot because they were dinged based ostensibly on some such intangible factor. Thankfully that’s a thing of the past. But in general, we don’t know a “leader” in the NFL until he’s been given a chance to lead. Hence my comment that all kinds of personalities have become, in retrospect, great leaders. Maybe if Lamar keeps winning we will be saying that about him too. 

It also makes you wonder why guys like Watson and Mahomes, way better players, went after Tribusky who was a starter for one.  I hope after all the success a lot of “minority” qbs are having, race can stop being a thing in their evaluation.  

2 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

One score Lamar Jackson would like to put behind him is his Wonderlic test score, which was a disappointing 13.

What is the point of this?  Jim Kelly got a 15.

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1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It also makes you wonder why guys like Watson and Mahomes, way better players, went after Tribusky who was a starter for one.  I hope after all the success a lot of “minority” qbs are having, race can stop being a thing in their evaluation.  

What is the point of this?  Jim Kelly got a 15.

 

Jim Kelly was probably drunk and high 

Jesus,  some people need to lighten up a bit 

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4 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Jim Kelly was probably drunk and high 

Jesus,  some people need to lighten up a bit 

Ah, excuses for Kelly. Why did you bring it up in the first place?  To try and bash a guy who were wrong about?

Edited by C.Biscuit97
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2 hours ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Mama Jackson is da real MVP

Interesting how he (Lamar) puts credence in her advice.

*
Howie puts credence in her advice?

*
No, Jackson puts credence in her advice, but he occasionally distances himself.

*
Buddy occasionally distances himself?

*
No, Lamar occasionally distances himself.

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9 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

One score Lamar Jackson would like to put behind him is his Wonderlic test score, which was a disappointing 13.

Is this what we’ve resorted to? Grasping at straws to validate your pre-draft analysis? The guy is a legit MVP candidate at this point and you want to talk about his wondering score?!? Seriously???

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The way this thread is titled made me think that Jackson himself said he was gonna be having this crow pot pie...ew...

 

I wasn't sure if his style of play would translate well to the pros but he landed in a really good situation where they've designed the offense around his skill set. I think there's still some inconsistency there for him as a passer, it seems like he's red hot or kinda meh. 

 

I will tell Mark Ingram to settle the hell down, though. Yeesh. For me, right now, Russell Wilson is the MVP for his pure quarterback play. He has the ability to run as well but it's a last resort for him. He's had all of two games this season where he's had a passer rating under 100. In fact, his and Jackson's worst games this season came when they played each other. But yeah, it's Wilson for me right now. Some of the throws he's made this year are insane. Plus, he doesn't have the collection of backs/receivers/tight ends that Jackson has, and he has the less talented OL as well as a defense that gives up more points a game (25.4 a game to 19.6 for Baltimore). So, he's doing more with less and he's playing at a ridiculously high level.

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4 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Why don't you concentrate on the TOPIC and not focus on me.  

 

Can you do that?  I'm sure the Mods would appreciate it. 

 I don’t care about you.  You are just coming across really petty in this thread. It’s all good. Enjoy your day. 

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People are skeptical on Jackson for a very simple reason:

 

Vick

Young

Kaepernick

Tebow

RGIII

even Newton

 

All of these guys were running quarterbacks with either questionable arm strength, accuracy, or smarts...maybe all three.  All of them looked great early in basic, run-oriented offenses.  They all hit a wall.  Maybe he winds up as a Wilson or Watson...it's possible, I guess, but both of those guys look natural throwing the football.  

 

Sometimes there are quarterbacks who are great athletes...and sometimes there are great athletes who play quarterback.  Early in a career, it's hard to tell the difference

 

 

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The NFL will figure out Jackson and make him pass. It is just a matter of time.  The real flaw with Jackson and Josh Allen types is teams will start hitting them and punishing them. It is coming. 

 

When the playoffs start Jackson and Allen (if he gets there) will live or die via the pass. Not overly bullish on either putting together a few playoff wins in a row. They are going to be punished in the playoffs.  The speed of defenses gets A LOT faster.

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6 hours ago, Gordio said:

L Jackson is Greg Roman's dream QB.  He has everything in his arsenal that Roman wants in a QB.  It is a perfect match.  L Jackson is like Mike Vick on steroids.  yes he is that talented.  The people that compare him to T Taylor that is funny.  Taylor has never had the skill set like LJ.  Not even close.  

 

Tyrod was not very good.  Jackson is no more talented than Michael Vick. Vick was a super talent.  The difference is defenses can't hit quarterbacks any longer so they can survive a season of scrambling.  Just a couple years ago Jackson would be beaten into the ground every time he ran. The playoffs will be different. Defenses get a lot faster and referees let defenses hit quarterbacks.  Guys like Jackson and even Josh Allen will think twice about running when the playoffs start.  It is a different sport in January.

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51 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You’re right. But it was insane how reacted to a rookie starting his first playoff game. I bet there are a bunch of great qbs who struggled in their first playoff starts.  

 

His first 3 quarters were unprecedented, so I disagree.

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Just now, FUTURIST said:

 

Tyrod was not very good.  Jackson is no more talented than Michael Vick. Vick was a super talent.  The difference is defenses can't hit quarterbacks any longer so they can survive a season of scrambling.  Just a couple years ago Jackson would be beaten into the ground every time he ran. The playoffs will be different. Defenses get a lot faster and referees let defenses hit quarterbacks.  Guys like Jackson and even Josh Allen will think twice about running when the playoffs start.  It is a different sport in January.

 

 

I think Jackson is more talented than Vick.  He is a much better passer.  

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17 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

People are skeptical on Jackson for a very simple reason:

 

Vick

Young

Kaepernick

Tebow

RGIII

even Newton

 

All of these guys were running quarterbacks with either questionable arm strength, accuracy, or smarts...maybe all three.  All of them looked great early in basic, run-oriented offenses.  They all hit a wall.  Maybe he winds up as a Wilson or Watson...it's possible, I guess, but both of those guys look natural throwing the football.  

 

Sometimes there are quarterbacks who are great athletes...and sometimes there are great athletes who play quarterback.  Early in a career, it's hard to tell the difference

 

 

 

Jackson looks natural throwing the football. To me anyway.

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I've said before Lamar Jackson is the perfect QB for Greg Roman's offensive scheme, and Greg Roman is the perfect offensive coordinator for Lamar Jackson.  I suspect it would be hard for Lamar Jackson to duplicate his success with a different coordinator and a different system.  I'm almost sure he would struggle adapting to Daboll's system.  It's questionable whether or not Daboll would be able to adapt his scheme to accommodate Jackson.   If we really want Lamar Jackson, however, we could draft him next spring.  He's a draft eligible cornerback for Nebraska and he's actually about the same size as the QB.  He's pretty good too.

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16 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Jackson looks natural throwing the football. To me anyway.

 

He's very upright, with a very narrow base, and he doesn't clear his hips well...His arm is where most of his power comes from.  He has clean arm mechanics when he throws in front of him, but his arm gets sort of whippy when he throws to the sideline...because his hips are stiff due to the narrow base.

 

To me it looks like a good athlete who is always ready to run playing QB...his arm is good and his upper body mechanics are good, but he looks disconnected from his lower body, so you see nicely spun and touch throws, but no real driving, power throws.

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7 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

He's very upright, with a very narrow base, and he doesn't clear his hips well...His arm is where most of his power comes from.  He has clean arm mechanics when he throws in front of him, but his arm gets sort of whippy when he throws to the sideline...because his hips are stiff due to the narrow base.

 

To me it looks like a good athlete who is always ready to run playing QB...his arm is good and his upper body mechanics are good, but he looks disconnected from his lower body, so you see nicely spun and touch throws, but no real driving, power throws.

 

Agree. You no doubt recall the pre-draft commentary about this mechanical flaw. The analysts who liked him seemed pretty sure this (the narrow base) was correctable and minor as flaws go. I recall other analysts making similar comments regarding the lack of rotation in Allen's hips when following through his throwing motion (in addition to other issues). I haven't seen much of Lamar this year. Sounds from your comment that he still has work to do. 

Edited by starrymessenger
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1 hour ago, syhuang said:

 

 

Josh gets the Buffalo stigma. There always has to be some extenuating circumstance that explains the anomaly of his god day or they want to point out what happened at previous points to rationalize why it shouldn't be taken into account. Just the way it is for now. :thumbsup: 

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1 minute ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Agree. You no doubt recall the pre-draft commentary about this mechanical flaw. The analysts who liked him seemed pretty sure this was correctable and minor as flaws go. I recall other analysts making similar comments regarding the lack of rotation in Allen's hips when following through his throwing motion (in addition to other issues). I haven't seen much of Lamar this year. Sounds from your comment that he still has work to do. 

 

I will say this about him...he is an incredible athlete.  He clearly has a strong, whip-like arm.  But I have real doubts that he can drive a football to the sideline...if he completes a deep out it will be because the defense was soft and his release is lightning quick.

 

that said, he doesn't need all the traditional tools in his toolbox right now, because he has other ones that most guys don't have...and on top of that he has some nice touch and natural ability when it comes to placing a football.  

 

Not gonna lie, though...I don't think he matches up well against the Bills defense.    

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1 hour ago, Gordio said:

 

 

I think Jackson is more talented than Vick.  He is a much better passer.  

 

Vick was an okay passer.  Same for Jackson.  I am not sure an ok passer can win a Super Bowl though in this new era of football.  The Playoffs are for passers.

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From what I've seen, Lamar Jackson is still pretty average/below average as a passer. 

If teams could find a way to force him into playing strictly from the pocket, I believe he would struggle. 

But I'm not sure modern defenses are built in a way that can successfully lock Jackson into the pocket.

 

Right now, you see Baltimore running lots of 3-TE sets.  This creates absolute match-up nightmares.  If defenses don't bring in bigger personnel, they will get trampled by Mark Ingram and Gus Edwards.  If defenses go big, they don't have the speed to catch Jackson.  And Jackson is doing just enough in the passing game to keep them honest in the secondary.

 

To me, this is a tremendous credit to Greg Roman and the Baltimore coaching staff.  They have completely restructured their offense to fit his talents, in ways that I've never seen on the professional level.  This usually doesn't happen with athletic/running QBs.  I remember when Michael Vick was drafted, and he was supposed to "change the game" of football.  Atlanta forced him into a West Coast system that didn't fit his skills, and he never truly reached his potential.

 

Will defenses eventually adjust - either this season or long-term?  It's really hard to say.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Not gonna lie, though...I don't think he matches up well against the Bills defense.    

 

They way Baltimore is rolling, I'm not sure anyone's defense matches up well.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

I will say this about him...he is an incredible athlete.  He clearly has a strong, whip-like arm.  But I have real doubts that he can drive a football to the sideline...if he completes a deep out it will be because the defense was soft and his release is lightning quick.

 

that said, he doesn't need all the traditional tools in his toolbox right now, because he has other ones that most guys don't have...and on top of that he has some nice touch and natural ability when it comes to placing a football.  

 

Not gonna lie, though...I don't think he matches up well against the Bills defense.    

 

Just curious, but if he lacks (for now) Allen's laser on out patterns, would that middle of the field soft zone coverage we are often in play to his strengths as a passer? 

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2 hours ago, H2o said:

Josh gets the Buffalo stigma. There always has to be some extenuating circumstance that explains the anomaly of his god day or they want to point out what happened at previous points to rationalize why it shouldn't be taken into account. Just the way it is for now. :thumbsup: 


let people get sucked into the Lamar love. 
 

Since week 7 Josh has been the best QB in TDs and fantasy points. 
 

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