One important question I have on the last drive

[Thunderstruck]

On this last attempt before the field goal- Beasley is clearly wide open at the stick and could easily get 10+ yards before getting out of bounds. This gives us time for a shot or two at the end zone (if they have faith to try that) and a much easier kick for the tie.

 

I would really like to know whether this is a case of

  a) Josh not seeing the open man

  b) The coaching staff having already pre-determined that the ball was going to be forced to Brown down the sideline

  c) An immature QB that knew Beas would be open there but decided to go for the glory anyway

  d) Other suggestions?

 

This play continues to bother me, because this is demonstrating a terrible pattern of behavior, either by our QB or our coaching staff (maybe both?)

 

 

[RoyBatty is alive]

I would vote for A 

[Thunderstruck]

1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

I would vote for A 

This is my thought too, and granted that Dawkins whiffing on another block didn't help the matter any

[KellyToTasker]

Dawkins was too busy stirring Mac and Cheese.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

QB’s miss open receivers all the time.  Allen missed him.  

[NewEra]

A:

 

josh is better than last year but he still has LOTS to work on

[Steptide]

Could be that Browns defender to Allen's left that's about to tackle him 

[DuckyBoys]

Think he made up his mind pre snap where the football was going  I dont like it but if he holds the ball he gets crushed  Dawkins was terrible and Daboll not bright enough to give him help with a chip block  Its a lower % play and we seem to be running way too many of those in critical third downs

[oldmanfan]

Coming into this season we all wanted Josh to improve his completion percentage, which he has.  We wanted him to improve going through his progressions.  I think if you watch objectively he has.  But what he still needs to work on is his pre-snap reads.  I think that throw was a pre-snap read, and his read was that he had Brown one on one.  The read probably should have been Beasley, assuming he read the blitz coming from the left side.

 

Reading NFL defenses isn't easy, but Josh has to improve there.

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, KellyToTasker said:

Dawkins was too busy stirring Mac and Cheese.

Eager to see how PFF “grades” him this week.  
 

I really hope we trade him and get ourselves a good LT.  If we pay him 12+ mill a year it’ll hurt

[BuffaloBillyG]

Could also be that using a snap shot of where everyone ended up gives people more time to wallow over what could have been.

 

In reality it was a split second descision made from an angle that we will not see (the QBs vantage point.). Easy to be critical seeing the play from where we can, after the fact, and with the ability to pause.

[grog]

I wish I didn't see that picture this morning.....it is like getting punched in the gut...I would go with A or B

Edited November 11, 2019 by grog

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I vote for A too.  They call that the blind side as far as rushing the passer for a reason.  To a lesser extent it's also the blind side for receivers too.  Granted the QB knows there should be a guy out there and would tend to look, but still tougher when you have the guy bearing down.  It's a relatively short pas, cant float it, so he may be worried about the rusher getting a hand on it too and knocking it down.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

It was never a decision. It was cover-0, meaning he got one read.  He had Brown (his #1 WR) 1-1 on the outside running either a go or an option route, depending on whether he got a jump.  The ball was always going to Brown, and the read was always on the right. These snap shots do nothing to help explain what happened on the play.  

[Thunderstruck]

I agree with those suggesting that Dawkins whiffed block may have had a lot to do with this, but Josh still chose the lowest percentage / least open receiver on the field. I watched the post game presser and he proclaimed that he liked the one-on-one matchup with Brown down the field and that he had confidence that Brown could go get it. He did admit that it wasn't a good enough ball and didn't really give him a chance to do that.

 

While I am glad that Josh has confidence in his "#1 receiver", I just don't have that same confidence in Brown for back shoulder / jump ball type throws. It seems like we have built this receiving core for deep balls and timing routes, but we have a QB that just isn't very good at either of those. I truly hope he can improve and do it soon.

[whatdrought]

Hard to know what read Beas is on that play, and Allen definitely doesn’t have time to cycle through them right there. It could definitely be on Allen, but hard to say one way or another without context. While in the first half of the season, Beasley was the first read on a lot of passes, it doesn’t seem like that’s happening anymore... that’s a huge question mark for me.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

I agree with those suggesting that Dawkins whiffed block may have had a lot to do with this, but Josh still chose the lowest percentage / least open receiver on the field. I watched the post game presser and he proclaimed that he liked the one-on-one matchup with Brown down the field and that he had confidence that Brown could go get it. He did admit that it wasn't a good enough ball and didn't really give him a chance to do that.

 

While I am glad that Josh has confidence in his "#1 receiver", I just don't have that same confidence in Brown for back shoulder / jump ball type throws. It seems like we have built this receiving core for deep balls and timing routes, but we have a QB that just isn't very good at either of those. I truly hope he can improve and do it soon.

 

The back shoulder come back to brown has been amazing this year. The problem, according to Smokey during his postgame presser, is that he didn’t get where he needed to be. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by whatdrought

[Thunderstruck]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

It was never a decision. It was cover-0, meaning he got one read.  He had Brown (his #1 WR) 1-1 on the outside running either a go or an option route, depending on whether he got a jump.  The ball was always going to Brown, and the read was always on the right. These snap shots do nothing to help explain what happened on the play.  

ok- I don't know what your background is, but it is entirely possible that you know a lot about the x's and o's of football. That being the case, are you really telling me that there was only one option on a critical 3rd down play with the game on the line? So Allen was throwing to Brown here, NO MATTER WHAT?

 

I'm sorry- if that is the case then there are even bigger issues here.

[Les Vegetables]

It’s hard to swallow this pill, but plays like this will help Josh mature into a better QB in the long term. These coaches seem to be intentional on film study and preparation, Josh will see this play (and more) on film and continue to improve. 

On to Miami, go Bills!

[Thunderstruck]

4 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Hard to know what read Beas is on that play, and Allen definitely doesn’t have time to cycle through them right there. It could definitely be on Allen, but hard to say one way or another without context. While in the first half of the season, Beasley was the first read on a lot of passes, it doesn’t seem like that’s happening anymore... that’s a huge question mark for me.

 

 

 

The back shoulder come back to brown has been amazing this year. The problem, according to Smokey during his postgame presser, is that he didn’t get where he needed to be. 

I won't deny that that play has been there several times this year, but do you really think Brown is the prototypical WR for back shoulder and jump ball type throws?

[Billsatlastin2018]

A for sure!

 

But, this obviously points to a serious, serious liability for your franchise QB! As in... not good enough, in critical situations.

[atlbillsfan1975]

Allen saw the matchup with Brown and thought he could hit the back shoulder pass like he did against the Jets. Brown even said after the game yesterday he should of broke off the route. I still would of rather seen the throw to Beasley be the first read.  By the look of that Beasley could of picked up the first and maybe 5-6 more yards. Then call the time out and hit the field goal from about 40 yards away. 

For Beasley to be that open it’s almost as if the Browns schemes for it. They knew Garrett would get to Allen and not allow him time to go from the right to the left of the field. If pre snap Allen sees the coverage then he could of made the throw to Beasley. 

Allen is young and he will get better. I still feel Daboll is the wrong OC for a young developing QB like Allen. His system is complex and puts a ton on a QB. Look at what Roman is doing in Baltimore with Jackson. You are going to tell me that Allen wouldn’t look like a better QB with a better OC?

[RoyBatty is alive]

17 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said:

Think he made up his mind pre snap where the football was going  I dont like it but if he holds the ball he gets crushed  Dawkins was terrible and Daboll not bright enough to give him help with a chip block  Its a lower % play and we seem to be running way too many of those in critical third downs

 

If he can properly diagnose the best mismatch available for the time/situation this is a positive, how Brady succeeds now.  Esp with Dawkins whiffing.

Edited November 11, 2019 by RoyBatty is alive

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

6 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

ok- I don't know what your background is, but it is entirely possible that you know a lot about the x's and o's of football. That being the case, are you really telling me that there was only one option on a critical 3rd down play with the game on the line? So Allen was throwing to Brown here, NO MATTER WHAT?

 

I'm sorry- if that is the case then there are even bigger issues here.

 

On cover-0 it is not uncommon to have just the one read.  The defense is sending an all out blitz, so the QB just doesn't have the time to make a bunch of reads.  The problem is that his one read is a difficult low-percentage play.  It was a dumb play call.  

[whatdrought]

6 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

I won't deny that that play has been there several times this year, but do you really think Brown is the prototypical WR for back shoulder and jump ball type throws?

 

Back shoulder come backs, yes. Because that’s not about size and is rather about getting the corner going one way fast, and then breaking the route. It looked like it was supposed to be a jump ball in real time because Brown hadn’t created separation due to running the wrong route. If he had broken back as he was supposed to, he’d have had space to make the catch and turn up field/out of bounds.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

(D) Allen stated he saw cover 0 and was going to have a one on one match-up on Brown.  Brown in his post game interview said he “got tapped for a go ball “.  This tells me he and Allen had some sort of pre-snap communication.  The concept is if Brown beats his guy put it in front of him; if not throw a back shoulder behind the WR.  Allen threw back shoulder and supposedly Brown stated he misread the route meaning he wasn’t necessarily expecting the back shoulder.  If you rewatch the tape, the back shoulder pass was there, just miscommunication for an easy completion. Perhaps Allen should have known Beasley would be open, but his mind was made up upon reading the coverage and was trying to recreate the same magic he captured in the Jets game in my opinion,

[oldmanfan]

Question:  who calls the blocking schemes? Someone should have seen the overload and blitz?

[Blank Stare]

16 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

It was never a decision. It was cover-0, meaning he got one read.  He had Brown (his #1 WR) 1-1 on the outside running either a go or an option route, depending on whether he got a jump.  The ball was always going to Brown, and the read was always on the right. These snap shots do nothing to help explain what happened on the play.  

This. It’s exactly what Josh and John Brown said in their post game pressers. Didn’t matter what anyone else was doing. He was going JB all the way. 

[jrober38]

41 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

On this last attempt before the field goal- Beasley is clearly wide open at the stick and could easily get 10+ yards before getting out of bounds. This gives us time for a shot or two at the end zone (if they have faith to try that) and a much easier kick for the tie.

 

I would really like to know whether this is a case of

  a) Josh not seeing the open man

  b) The coaching staff having already pre-determined that the ball was going to be forced to Brown down the sideline

  c) An immature QB that knew Beas would be open there but decided to go for the glory anyway

  d) Other suggestions?

 

This play continues to bother me, because this is demonstrating a terrible pattern of behavior, either by our QB or our coaching staff (maybe both?)

 

 

 

7 pass rushers.

 

6 blockers.

 

Our QB fails to recognize the blitz, both pre and post snap, and is looking for a long ball instead of the easy check down to move the chains.

 

Most of our problems start and end with #17. 

[CincyBillsFan]

As others have noted Allen went for the win with Brown.  In hindsight it was the wrong call but when looking at it from the long term perspective of Allen's development as a QB I think it was the right call.  It was aggressive and we'd all be singing Allen's praises today if Brown had comeback for the back shoulder throw.

 

As for throwing to Beasley on that play I think the picture makes the situation look a lot better then it really was.  With the Browns DE coming almost unhindered at Allen the possibility the pass could have been batted down or Allen under severe duress would have missed the throw was pretty high.  IMO either throw, whether to Brown or Beasley, was going to be equally problematic but for different reasons.   

 

BTW, by not going out of bounds on the previous play Singleterry put the Bills in a tougher spot with respect to the clock.  This seems to be getting overlooked in trying to assign blame for that last drive. 

[Mrbojanglezs]

hes about to get drilled by a free rusher in 0.2 seconds. He was probably looking right to avoid the pass getting knocked down with the rusher right in his face?

[jletha]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

7 pass rushers.

 

6 blockers.

 

Our QB fails to recognize the blitz, both pre and post snap, and is looking for a long ball instead of the easy check down to move the chains.

 

Most of our problems start and end with #17. 

This isnt right, they did recognize the blitz which is why it was pre-determined that the play was going to Brown on the first read no matter what. The problem is that the hot route was a back-shoulder go route.

 

Identifying the blitz and optioning to Brown was the right call against Cover-0. Given the situation though, not the right route to option to IMO.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

It's a back shoulder route. There is no read to make except presnap. It's a timing route just like a fade in the endzone. You can argue it was a bad play call but it has worked much of the year when executed properly.  It has nothing to do with Allen not going through his progressions.  

And if you are going to post this picture, why not make the thread about how badly Dawkins continues to play?

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

4 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

7 pass rushers.

 

6 blockers.

 

Our QB fails to recognize the blitz, both pre and post snap, and is looking for a long ball instead of the easy check down to move the chains.

 

Most of our problems start and end with #17. 

It is important to read the post-game interviews before posting. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

As others have noted Allen went for the win with Brown.  In hindsight it was the wrong call but when looking at it from the long term perspective of Allen's development as a QB I think it was the right call.  It was aggressive and we'd all be singing Allen's praises today if Brown had comeback for the back shoulder throw.

 

As for throwing to Beasley on that play I think the picture makes the situation look a lot better then it really was.  With the Browns DE coming almost unhindered at Allen the possibility the pass could have been batted down or Allen under severe duress would have missed the throw was pretty high.  IMO either throw, whether to Brown or Beasley, was going to be equally problematic but for different reasons.   

 

BTW, by not going out of bounds on the previous play Singleterry put the Bills in a tougher spot with respect to the clock.  This seems to be getting overlooked in trying to assign blame for that last drive. 

Singletary tried but it was good play by defender

[TJC25]

32 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

It was never a decision. It was cover-0, meaning he got one read.  He had Brown (his #1 WR) 1-1 on the outside running either a go or an option route, depending on whether he got a jump.  The ball was always going to Brown, and the read was always on the right. These snap shots do nothing to help explain what happened on the play.  

It shows a lot it shows the qb not seeing the field pre snap and not seeing Beasley cb playing 12 yards off and should of been the hot read sorry to say that is progression you would like to see from a qb and the bad decision making continues 

[jrober38]

3 minutes ago, jletha said:

This isnt right, they did recognize the blitz which is why it was pre-determined that the play was going to Brown on the first read no matter what. The problem is that the hot route was a back-shoulder go route.

 

Identifying the blitz and optioning to Brown was the right call against Cover-0. Given the situation though, not the right route to option to IMO.

 

If it was Cover 0 Cole Beasley would be locked up in man coverage and not standing wide open. 

[Thunderstruck]

17 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

(D) Allen stated he saw cover 0 and was going to have a one on one match-up on Brown.  Brown in his post game interview said he “got tapped for a go ball “.  This tells me he and Allen had some sort of pre-snap communication.  The concept is if Brown beats his guy put it in front of him; if not throw a back shoulder behind the WR.  Allen threw back shoulder and supposedly Brown stated he misread the route meaning he wasn’t necessarily expecting the back shoulder.  If you rewatch the tape, the back shoulder pass was there, just miscommunication for an easy completion. Perhaps Allen should have known Beasley would be open, but his mind was made up upon reading the coverage and was trying to recreate the same magic he captured in the Jets game in my opinion,

I missed Brown's post-game. That is an important detail- I agree that it sounds like Josh is the one who called for the go-route.

 

Sure- I know it is easy to play MMQB and second guess these decisions, but that is not a high percentage throw. Yes- he got away with it against the Jets but is that really going to be the go-to when the game is on the line?

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, TJC25 said:

It shows a lot it shows the qb not seeing the field pre snap and not seeing Beasley cb playing 12 yards off and should of been the hot read sorry to say that is progression you would like to see from a qb and the bad decision making continues 

 

Its Dabol's play call man. Its Daboll saying if you see cover-0 with Brown 1-1 on the outside that is your read. You can dream up whatever fiction scenario you like for this to justify your irrational anger, but that doesn't make it any less incorrect. 

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

If it was Cover 0 Cole Beasley would be locked up in man coverage and not standing wide open. 

 

Wait....you've been around forever, there is no way you don't know what Cover-0 means...

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Its Dabol's play call man. Its Daboll saying if you see cover-0 with Brown 1-1 on the outside that is your read. You can dream up whatever fiction scenario you like for this to justify your irrational anger, but that doesn't make it any less incorrect. 

 

Wait....you've been around forever, there is no way you don't know what Cover-0 means...

 

Cover 0 means there's no safety help, yet I can only see 3 of the 4 DBs (assuming the corner at the bottom is on Brown). 

 

Where's the 4th DB if he's not providing safety help deep?

 

7 guys blitz, 2 on screen, one off screen covering Brown down the sideline. 

 

Where's the 11th man?

Edited November 11, 2019 by jrober38

[TJC25]

6 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Its Dabol's play call man. Its Daboll saying if you see cover-0 with Brown 1-1 on the outside that is your read. You can dream up whatever fiction scenario you like for this to justify your irrational anger, but that doesn't make it any less incorrect. 

 

Wait....you've been around forever, there is no way you don't know what Cover-0 means

Please stop with the notion our oc is telling him to throw a ball to a receiver not open if josh came back to the sideline and told daboll i saw soft coverage on the left and hit Beasley for 20 so that was my read. Qbs make there decisions pre snap my guy stop saying a oc is telling josh where to throw a ball bills fans blame a oc for inept qb play.

Edited November 11, 2019 by TJC25