Is Star Lotulelei A Liability on the DL?

[Phil The Thrill]

I was listening to Joe Buscaglia preview the Bills game this morning on Jerry Sullivan and said the game is a coin flip.  He thinks the Eagles have a good offense that will try to challenge the Bills and run inside.  Not only is that the strength of the Philly OL, but it was a big weakness last week vs a terrible Miami OL.  This is why a nobody like Mark Walton ran for a few big plays - though overall he didn’t put up a ton of numbers.

 

Joe’s main culprit is Star Loutelelei.  He said he has been terrible this year and is not winning matchups very well.  While he never put up stats, he’s not doing a very good job holding his ground either.  His replacement Kyle Peko has been worse.  Miami pushed him around all day resulting in more big plays.  
 

Since Peko and Star were so terrible, the Bills were forced to line up Jordan Phillips who plays on the other side at 1 technique next to Ed Oliver.  
 

This is a pretty big concern to me when the guy you paid $10 million a year is awful at DT and can’t even get on the field a crucial times.  

 

The inside runs could be something to watch as Philly might try to set up for a few play action bombs.  

[DollaBills]

I think a big reason is lack of depth at LB too, Milano plays a key part in attacking the middle. Its hard to say if Star is overrated or just schemed against when the middle of the defense is the only area to scheme for considering how good the secondary is.

[billsfanmiami(oh)]

I honestly forgot he was on the team until I saw this post.

[whatdrought]

I don't know about Star's performance, but I'd be willing to bet a bigger issue for the Run D last week was missing Milano. As for Star, I've seen stuff that says he's doing his job well this year. People won't agree on either end because, like most bills players, there's a lot of preconceived ideas about him. Contractually, he's probably overpaid, but It's not like we're using the money right now anyways. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by whatdrought

[r00tabaga]

Star has a job and it's not always noticeable. He is a big part of our success over the last 2 years.

Space eater.

 

1/11th.

[Not at the table Karlos]

8 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

Star has a job and it's not always noticeable. He is a big part of our success over the last 2 years.

Space eater.

 

1/11th.

I supported him last year but this year all I see is him being taken out of plays by a single blocker. He’s been bad.  He’s not eating much space getting pushed backwards a few yards. Right now he’s a space creator. 

 

The coaching staff seems seems to have noticed as well because Phillips has been getting more snaps. Phillips and Oliver should be the starters the rest of the year. 

[Capco]

If the defense goes downhill for several games maybe we can start to blame Star.  But he's also been a part of the success of this defense too, so you can't discredit him for that while crediting him as the reason for the poor game with the Fish.  

[BuffaninSarasota]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Star is worthless and Edmunds still has his struggles. 

 

care to elaborate ?

[RoyBatty is alive]

For Star to be effective he has to take up 1 1/2 blockers every play on average...honestly i haven't focused in on him to notice

[GG]

3 minutes ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

 

care to elaborate ?

 

It's been discussed a plenty.  He's been up and down.  Fortunately he picked the Dolphins game to have an off-Sunday.

[thenorthremembers]

If Phillips keeps getting reps at the 1 tech, they need to designate Star as a post June 1st cut and get out of the contract they gave him.    If Phillips was healthy I think Star would be losing more and more time.  

[r00tabaga]

15 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

I supported him last year but this year all I see is him being taken out of plays by a single blocker. He’s been bad.  He’s not eating much space getting pushed backwards a few yards. Right now he’s a space creator. 

 

The coaching staff seems seems to have noticed as well because Phillips has been getting more snaps. Phillips and Oliver should be the starters the rest of the year. 

Phillips primarily rotates with Ed so not sure your point.

[teef]

12 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Star is worthless and Edmunds still has his struggles. 

there's our little ball of positivity!

[freester]

I think he's gone at the end of the year and they will try to resign Jordan Phillips

[DrDawkinstein]

10 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

For Star to be effective he has to take up 1 1/2 blockers every play on average...honestly i haven't focused in on him to notice

 

From Joe B's All-22 breakdown on The Athletic:

 

Quote

3) Do the Bills have a 1-tech problem?

 

The Dolphins opened up a wound the Bills thought they sewed shut early in the season. In the first half — and even early in the third quarter — the Dolphins had success on the ground. The Bills improved their team run defense this season, but without starting linebacker Matt Milano on Sunday, they couldn’t hide their deficiencies. The most glaring is at one-technique defensive tackle.

 

In a game that featured a high-dosage of base defense, Star Lotulelei had only had eight more snaps than his backup. It’s been a rough start to the season for Lotulelei, who appears to be getting pushed off his spot more than he had been in 2018. The primary function of the one-technique player is to stand his ground, effectively setting the table for his teammates. Lotulelei has faced plenty of one-on-one matchups in 2019, and is consistently letting the offensive linemen beat him.

 

Without Harrison Phillips, who was outplaying Lotulelei before his injury, the Bills have turned to former practice squad player Kyle Peko. The results, through three weeks, have been a significant downgrade at the position. To compensate, the Bills flipped Jordan Phillips to one-technique defensive tackle with the backup unit in the second half. The switch seemed to work, but Phillips shouldn’t be a long-term fix there. He’s at his best when lined up as a three-technique, where his primary responsibility is to penetrate the backfield.

 

Miami doesn’t have a talented offensive line, which makes the Bills’ performance at the position more concerning. With both Lotulelei and Peko struggling this season, it’s fair to wonder if the Bills will look to upgrade the position ahead of the trade deadline.

 

We are really missing Horrible Harry

 

 

3 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

Phillips primarily rotates with Ed so not sure your point.

 

See above

Edited October 24, 2019 by DrDawkinstein

[MAJBobby]

The most Over paid player on this football team, and sad thing is they are stuck with that Contract thru next year too.

[r00tabaga]

Harry is definately miss'd 

[Virgil]

Can’t he be cut this offseason with little financial repercussions?

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

Phillips primarily rotates with Ed so not sure your point.

 

Through 4 games he did. But it started in Tennessee and it carried on against Miami. There has been Jordan Phillips at the 1 tech and there were snaps where both Phillips and Oliver were out there in both games - not that surprising on obvious passing downs but it has started to happen on early downs too. 

 

When a number of us were commenting in the offseason about the disappointing level of Star's play we were told we just didn't understand his role on the defense. But that was rubbish. I know his role. I know he isn't there for pressures and sacks but even the things he is supposed to be good at he was below average in 2018.

 

The response then was "McDermott and Beane don't agree with you message board GMs because he is still getting plenty of time on the field." 

 

Well guess what? His time on the field has reduced markedly this season. So now maybe Beane and McDermott do agree? Oliver, Phillips and Harrison have all significantly outplayed him. Star's Bills future is in jeopardy make no mistake.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Virgil said:

Can’t he be cut this offseason with little financial repercussions?

 

Looks like after next season...

 

Year		Age	Base Salary	Signing	Roster	Workout	Cap Hit	Dead Cap	Yearly Cash
2018		28	$3,500,000	$2,600,000	$500,000	$100,000	$6,700,000	$18,600,000	$17,100,000($17,100,000)
2019		29	$7,150,000	$2,600,000	$1,500,000	$250,000	$11,500,000	$18,800,000	$8,900,000($26,000,000)
2020		30	$6,250,000	$2,600,000	$1,000,000	$250,000	$10,100,000	$7,800,000	$7,500,000($33,500,000)
Potential Out: 2021, 3 yr, $33,500,000; $5,200,000 dead cap
2021		31	$6,500,000	$2,600,000	$1,500,000	$250,000	$10,850,000	$5,200,000	$8,250,000($41,750,000)
2022		32	$6,500,000	$2,600,000	$1,500,000	$250,000	$10,850,000	$2,600,000	$8,250,000($50,000,000)

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Virgil said:

Can’t he be cut this offseason with little financial repercussions?

No The out year is after 2020 season

[GG]

9 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

The most Over paid player on this football team, and sad thing is they are stuck with that Contract thru next year too.

 

Just now, Virgil said:

Can’t he be cut this offseason with little financial repercussions?

 

Next year can be a reasonable cut day.   They will save $2.3 million in space with an outright cut (he will still eat up $7.8 million cap number).   If it's a post June designated cut, cap savings will be greater.

 

There's a lot of incentive on both sides to restructure his deal though.  He's not worth anywhere near the $7.5 million he's due to be paid next year, and Bills wouldn't mind keeping him for about $4 million.  So look for a deal that does just that.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, GG said:

 

 

Next year can be a reasonable cut day.   They will save $2.3 million in space with an outright cut (he will still eat up $7.8 million cap number).   If it's a post June designated cut, cap savings will be greater.

 

There's a lot of incentive on both sides to restructure his deal though.  He's not worth anywhere near the $7.5 million he's due to be paid next year, and Bills wouldn't mind keeping him for about $4 million.  So look for a deal that does just that.

Just cut him and be don with it.  

[MJS]

What percentage of the snaps does Star usually take up?

 

I view him as a role player that they put out there to eat up space sometimes. The dline has been pretty good almost all year and then had a little bit of a hiccup against the Dolphins. Not sure we can jump to conclusions based on one game.

[Real McClappy]

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Looks like after next season...

 

Year		Age	Base Salary	Signing	Roster	Workout	Cap Hit	Dead Cap	Yearly Cash
2018		28	$3,500,000	$2,600,000	$500,000	$100,000	$6,700,000	$18,600,000	$17,100,000($17,100,000)
2019		29	$7,150,000	$2,600,000	$1,500,000	$250,000	$11,500,000	$18,800,000	$8,900,000($26,000,000)
2020		30	$6,250,000	$2,600,000	$1,000,000	$250,000	$10,100,000	$7,800,000	$7,500,000($33,500,000)
Potential Out: 2021, 3 yr, $33,500,000; $5,200,000 dead cap
2021		31	$6,500,000	$2,600,000	$1,500,000	$250,000	$10,850,000	$5,200,000	$8,250,000($41,750,000)
2022		32	$6,500,000	$2,600,000	$1,500,000	$250,000	$10,850,000	$2,600,000	$8,250,000($50,000,000)

I hope this does not deter the FO in signing Phillips in the offseason

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, MJS said:

What percentage of the snaps does Star usually take up?

 

I view him as a role player that they put out there to eat up space sometimes. The dline has been pretty good almost all year and then had a little bit of a hiccup against the Dolphins. Not sure we can jump to conclusions based on one game.

Sitting at 40% right now

[MJS]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

Sitting at 40% right now

That's higher than I expected. If McDermott and Frazier are putting him out there so much they must be liking what they see.

[GG]

10 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Just cut him and be don with it.  

 

He still provides value to the team, just not at his contract.

 

Still surprised that Bills called up Peko & not Vincent.

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

I hope this does not deter the FO in signing Phillips in the offseason

 

I would hope not, and doesnt seem like a Beane thing to do. They technically play different positions (1-tech vs 3-tech) so I hope that helps in their decision.

 

As others pointed out, while we'd have $7M+ in dead cap space, it would still save $2.3M if we cut him. If push comes to shove, I'd rather see that $2.3M go to Jordan.

[MJS]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

He still provides value to the team, just not at his contract.

 

Still surprised that Bills called up Peko & not Vincent.

That was probably a scheme familiarity decision. Vincent had not been here that long.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, MJS said:

That's higher than I expected. If McDermott and Frazier are putting him out there so much they must be liking what they see.

 

Harrison Phillips is injured. That's why Star's snaps are so high.

[MJS]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Harrison Phillips is injured. That's why Star's snaps are so high.

What were his snaps before the Phillips injury?

[Royale with Cheese]

9 minutes ago, MJS said:

What percentage of the snaps does Star usually take up?

 

I view him as a role player that they put out there to eat up space sometimes. The dline has been pretty good almost all year and then had a little bit of a hiccup against the Dolphins. Not sure we can jump to conclusions based on one game.

 

Here's the snap count breakdown.

 

[TroutDog]

This was discussed in The Athletic:

 

“In a game that featured a high-dosage of base defense, Star Lotulelei had only had eight more snaps than his backup. It’s been a rough start to the season for Lotulelei, who appears to be getting pushed off his spot more than he had been in 2018. The primary function of the one-technique player is to stand his ground, effectively setting the table for his teammates. Lotulelei has faced plenty of one-on-one matchups in 2019, and is consistently letting the offensive linemen beat him.”

 

Bills All-22 Review: Why Josh Allen’s day looks better on film and Ed Oliver is heating up 
https://theathletic.com/1314766/2019/10/22/bills-all-22-review-why-josh-allens-day-looks-better-on-film-and-ed-oliver-is-heating-up/

[MAJBobby]

Just now, MJS said:

That's higher than I expected. If McDermott and Frazier are putting him out there so much they must be liking what they see.

highest he has been is 48%.  

 

was losing snaps to Harry before the Injury.  So tells me thy are putting him out there that much because thy have no other option

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Useless player, reason why he was let go by previous team

[MJS]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBillsMagic1 said:

Useless player, reason why he was let go by previous team

Wasn't he a free agent?

[MAJBobby]

Just now, GG said:

 

He still provides value to the team, just not at his contract.

 

Still surprised that Bills called up Peko & not Vincent.

Then it is a restructure where it is Tear up everything about this current contract and take the pay cut.  I definitely do not want to kick the can down the road with him and do a simple restructure.

Just now, MJS said:

Wasn't he a free agent?

Yeah meaning His Former team knew he wasnt worth what he was about to get.

[GG]

5 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Then it is a restructure where it is Tear up everything about this current contract and take the pay cut.  I definitely do not want to kick the can down the road with him and do a simple restructure.

Yeah meaning His Former team knew he wasnt worth what he was about to get.

 

That is correct - restructure with a huge cut in pay.  Hopefully he doesn't freak out like Richie did.

[MJS]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Yeah meaning His Former team knew he wasnt worth what he was about to get.

 

That's not really what that means. Quality players are available every year in free agency. Every team has their own unique cap and roster situation. Did we let Gilmore go because he wasn't worth the money? That's a gross oversimplification.

 

It looks like Star consistently gets 40% of the snaps. That's a large percentage. McDermott and Frazier aren't imbeciles. They've shown that they are willing to bench players that don't produce. Star probably does what they ask him to do most of the time, which is why he continues to play.

 

I'm not going to pretend (like others here are) that I know more than the coaches who have gotten us to a 5-1 record PRIMARILY on the strength of our elite defense.