Right Side of the Line...

[Paulus]

After watching the game against the Pats one thing became very clear to me; the Bills need help on the right side of the line.

 

Trent Willaims was mentioned earlier in the year as he sat out much of it, but the Skins held tight and did not sell him. (He is still sitting out.) With that said, after an 0-4 start does Willaims become more tradable? I mean, are the Skins now more likely to trade him, now?

 

If not, what 'do with the right side of the line?  Any savvy fans have any ideas, other than trust the process? (No problem with the process, just wondering.)

 

[Augie]

Well, this may be a novel idea, but I’m going to hope the professionals in the FO we pay millions to figure things out....do just that. And, IMO the clapping obsession is more annoying than the clapping. 

 

Sorry, but the whining after a loss can wear on a guy. 

[Paulus]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

Well, this may be a novel idea, but I’m going to hope the professionals in the FO we pay millions to figure things out....do just that. And, IMO the clapping obsession is more annoying than the clapping. 

 

Sorry, but the whining after a loss can wear on a guy. 

I am not whining... I think it is a legit weakness that still can be fixed. Just thought itd be a more practical approach than the dozens of Josh Allen threads. Also, I like the clapping. 

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, Paulus said:

I am not whining... I think it is a legit weakness that still can be fixed. Just thought itd be a more practical approach than the dozens of Josh Allen threads. Also, I like the clapping. 

 

Sorry, I’m just tired of the “we suck” after narrowly losing to the defending champs and one of the top 2 teams in the league. It wears me out!  You are correct, the right side needs fixing. I don’t know what we can do mid-season....at the right value. I suspect they will hold their water and do it right after the season, while hoping we gel and get better this year. 

[Paulus]

Just now, Augie said:

 

Sorry, I’m just tired of the “we suck” after narrowly losing to the defending champs and one of the top 2 teams in the league. It wears me out!  You are correct, the right side needs fixing. I don’t know what we can do mid-season....at the right value. I suspect they will hold their water and do it right after the season, while hoping we gel and get better this year. 

Agreed...

 

Idk, the right side of the line is one area I can see McBeane trying to do something with. Maybe a package with Zay to the Raiders, haha. I mean, McBeane really did go quite hard at revamping the OL, and it looks great compared to last year. The one spot that seems to be a thorn is that right side, though. Bad pass blocking and rare/poorer runs in that direction as well. Seems like a  pretty consistent problem. I wouldn't be surprised if they do something about it, but you're probably right that it won't involve trading.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Agreed...

 

Idk, the right side of the line is one area I can see McBeane trying to do something with. Maybe a package with Zay to the Raiders, haha. I mean, McBeane really did go quite hard at revamping the OL, and it looks great compared to last year. The one spot that seems to be a thorn is that right side, though. Bad pass blocking and rare/poorer runs in that direction as well. Seems like a  pretty consistent problem. I wouldn't be surprised if they do something about it, but you're probably right that it won't involve trading.

 

Still weak at RT. Ford isn’t up to it yet and Nsekhe seems to be struggling. I don’t break it down the way many here do, but we need to plug the leak over there! 

 

I do wish we would run the ball more. Give play action a chance. Gore was 9 for 88 at one point, I think. Why did we NOT do more of that? Why did we launch downfield so much against those DB’s? Life confuses me sometimes! 

[Chandler#81]

Nsehke was one of the most sought after OTs in FA. Ford is an early Round 2 guy we traded UP FOR. The right side of the line has been addressed. Cody is enduring a baptism under fire. That was Leagues Best Defense we just played.

 

Dammit! I hate the week after Pats* games.

[Paulus]

48 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Still weak at RT. Ford isn’t up to it yet and Nsekhe seems to be struggling. I don’t break it down the way many here do, but we need to plug the leak over there! 

 

I do wish we would run the ball more. Give play action a chance. Gore was 9 for 88 at one point, I think. Why did we NOT do more of that? Why did we launch downfield so much against those DB’s? Life confuses me sometimes! 

Yeah, I was wanting to see a bit more running in the game, but the Pats had 8 in the box, a lot of the time. At times the Pats seemed to be daring Josh and Daboll to go deep, which they did and failed. Solving BB's defense is not easy.

 

That said, the Bills' offense did start moving the ball once Josh started playing the hero-ball. Sadly, it resulted in him getting speared to his head.

 

Lastly, I don't think the Pats will never get their comeuppance, which is a shame.

41 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Nsehke was one of the most sought after OTs in FA. Ford is an early Round 2 guy we traded UP FOR. The right side of the line has been addressed. Cody is enduring a baptism under fire. That was Leagues Best Defense we just played.

 

Dammit! I hate the week after Pats* games.

Thanks for the insight. I swear the right side has looked a bit like a weakness this whole season, to be frank. I hope to be wrong.

 

Honestly, I'd like to see a breakdown of when pressure is coming from and how often the Bill's run to the right side of the line. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Paulus

[Thurman#1]

24 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Agreed...

 

Idk, the right side of the line is one area I can see McBeane trying to do something with. Maybe a package with Zay to the Raiders, haha. I mean, McBeane really did go quite hard at revamping the OL, and it looks great compared to last year. The one spot that seems to be a thorn is that right side, though. Bad pass blocking and rare/poorer runs in that direction as well. Seems like a  pretty consistent problem. I wouldn't be surprised if they do something about it, but you're probably right that it won't involve trading.

 

 

IMO they're working with it, and they haven't maximized their talent or abilities yet, much less had as much of a chance to gel as they would have if they'd settled on five guys to play.

 

It's seemed to me that Nsekhe has been OK at tackle and Ford at guard, but they seem not to want to do that for some reason.

 

In any case, I think this is part of the process and I don't see them bringing in an expensive FA in Williams. Or trading Zay, their third-best WR, either for that matter.

[ProcessTruster]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

Sorry, I’m just tired of the “we suck” after narrowly losing to the defending champs and one of the top 2 teams in the league. It wears me out!  You are correct, the right side needs fixing. I don’t know what we can do mid-season....at the right value. I suspect they will hold their water and do it right after the season, while hoping we gel and get better this year. 

yeah, there is maybe one window to do something, the bye week ... once that has come and gone, the roster is the roster , IMO. and major changes wait until the offseason. 

[Paulus]

		LEFT END		LEFT TACKLE		MID/GUARD		RIGHT TACKLE		RIGHT END
Rank	TEAM	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank
1	SF	6.60	4	6.99	2	4.69	13	6.35	2	5.63	5
2	BAL	10.66	1	4.07	23	4.99	5	5.43	5	4.14	16
3	BUF	5.90	6	6.36	5	4.80	9	4.83	17	3.70	17

 

 

. . . Show the success and direction.

 

Rank	Team	RB Carries	LEFT END	LEFT TACKLE	MID/ GUARD	RIGHT TACKLE	RIGHT END
20	BUF	80	13%	8%	64%	13%	4%

 

 

 . . . Shows the rate and direction.

 

 

Too tired to find the pressures from each side, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the statistical difference even more significant.

 

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol/2019

 

 . . . Sauce.

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Sorry, I’m just tired of the “we suck” after narrowly losing to the defending champs and one of the top 2 teams in the league. It wears me out!  You are correct, the right side needs fixing. I don’t know what we can do mid-season....at the right value. I suspect they will hold their water and do it right after the season, while hoping we gel and get better this year. 

Cmon man. The OP didn’t say we suck. He correctly pointed out RT is a weakness now and there is a player holding out that might be available. 

Ford is playing terribly at RT but again most are not giving up on him. Many believe he is better at RG. I believe Nsekhe is a journeyman OT but is the best option now barring a trade.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

yeah, there is maybe one window to do something, the bye week ... once that has come and gone, the roster is the roster , IMO. and major changes wait until the offseason. 

KB was acquired Oct 31 2017, two weeks after the bye. I do agree though a trade early next week for Trent Williams would be ideal timing at the start of the bye week

[GunnerBill]

Trent Williams is brilliant but I don't know if trading for him helps the right side. Would he come here and play RT having been a LT his whole career? Not sure. 

 

Now you could plug him in at LT and try flipping Dawkins to RT but he has not played there since pre-season his rookie year where he really looked unnatural. I have it written on my pre-draft evaluation of Dawkins "Left Guard with Left Tackle flex, not convinced he has left / right flex" 

[CSBill]

6 hours ago, Augie said:

Well, this may be a novel idea, but I’m going to hope the professionals in the FO we pay millions to figure things out....do just that. And, IMO the clapping obsession is more annoying than the clapping. 

 

Sorry, but the whining after a loss can wear on a guy. 

 

yuuup !!!!!

[CSBill]

5 hours ago, Paulus said:

		LEFT END		LEFT TACKLE		MID/GUARD		RIGHT TACKLE		RIGHT END
Rank	TEAM	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank	ALY	Rank
1	SF	6.60	4	6.99	2	4.69	13	6.35	2	5.63	5
2	BAL	10.66	1	4.07	23	4.99	5	5.43	5	4.14	16
3	BUF	5.90	6	6.36	5	4.80	9	4.83	17	3.70	17

 

 

 

Not quite sure what I'm reading here, but at first glance, it doesn't seem too bad. Obviously, the right side is weaker, but still not awful (middle of the pack at 17)? Am I missing something?

Edited October 2, 2019 by CSBill

[mjt328]

It's been widely observed that Cody Ford is playing very poorly at Right Tackle right now.  

 

The offense seems to play better and have less protection breakdowns with Ty Nsekhe on the field.  This also may be a reason our offense is so inconsistent from drive to drive.  Most teams prefer to establish continuity with the O-Line.  Our coaching staff seems determined to give Ford rotational reps anyway, deal with the growing pains and hope it helps accelerate his development.  It could be argued that Ford needs to be pulled out completely, and he needs to get better in practice before getting pushed onto the field.  Our coaches see it differently, and I guess only time will tell if they are doing the right thing.

 

Personally, I would like to see Brian Daboll make some adjustments to help the O-Line and take some pressure off Josh Allen.

Run the ball more.  Call for more quick two-step passing plays.  Put the running back into the backfield as an extra blocker.

Around the league, other teams are doing everything they can to help their young QBs with extra protection and easy passes.  Daboll puts Allen back there with five receivers, an empty backfield, and expects him to attack every secondary 15-20 yards downfield.

 

 

[Doc]

7 hours ago, Augie said:

Well, this may be a novel idea, but I’m going to hope the professionals in the FO we pay millions to figure things out....do just that. And, IMO the clapping obsession is more annoying than the clapping. 

 

Sorry, but the whining after a loss can wear on a guy. 

 

And people used to get on Jauron for standing there like a zombie during games.  You can please some of the people...

[BillsMafia13]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Cmon man. The OP didn’t say we suck. He correctly pointed out RT is a weakness now and there is a player holding out that might be available. 

Ford is playing terribly at RT but again most are not giving up on him. Many believe he is better at RG. I believe Nsekhe is a journeyman OT but is the best option now barring a trade.  

Thank you, I think he realistically stated what our biggest weakness on offense is and suggested making a move for a good player wanting out.  Idk how good T williams actually is but hes been to 7 striaght probowls for goodness sake.  He clearly wants out, get him for cheap and extend him til forever.  We need to slow the game down for Josh

[colin]

im starting to think that the reason why Ty is getting rotated in and out is because he's got some kind of foot/health issue that is limiting him (could be he just gets tired fast or some such).

 

they were willing to take burn from Star for harry, and they put that dude (can't remember his name, but i'm a fan) we stole from miami last year who just wrecks shop, so i think they are pretty motivated to put in whoever they think is best at that time.

[SoTier]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Trent Williams is brilliant but I don't know if trading for him helps the right side. Would he come here and play RT having been a LT his whole career? Not sure. 

 

Now you could plug him in at LT and try flipping Dawkins to RT but he has not played there since pre-season his rookie year where he really looked unnatural. I have it written on my pre-draft evaluation of Dawkins "Left Guard with Left Tackle flex, not convinced he has left / right flex" 

 

I think this is the problem with Dawkins -- and maybe Ford as well.  They would make much better NFL guards than tackles but the Bills keep at them at tackle because they don't have anybody better. 

[SoCal Deek]

In my opinion the ‘blame’ falls on Daboll. He knows the players he has including their strengths and weaknesses. They clearly saw something in film study that said they could beat the Patriots over the top last Sunday. But when it wasn’t working halftime adjustments needed to be made! The odd part is it looked they did just that in the first drive of the second half...but then Daboll fell asleep and went right back to bombs away. That’s not the fault of the right side of the O Line! 

[Jauronimo]

7 hours ago, Paulus said:

 

Thanks for the insight. I swear the right side has looked a bit like a weakness this whole season, to be frank. I hope to be wrong.

 

Honestly, I'd like to see a breakdown of when pressure is coming from and how often the Bill's run to the right side of the line. 

You aren't wrong.  While we made many aforementioned moves to shore up the line the right side is still a problem.  I expect that Ford will settle into his role eventually but right now he is a liability at RT and Nsehke is dealing with injuries I believe.   I agree that Trent would be an immediate upgrade talent wise.  The big question is his cost.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

You aren't wrong.  While we made many aforementioned moves to shore up the line the right side is still a problem.  I expect that Ford will settle into his role eventually but right now he is a liability at RT and Nsehke is dealing with injuries I believe.   I agree that Trent would be an immediate upgrade talent wise.  The big question is his cost.

 

Ford is also a better run blocker than Nsehke.  It would make sense he gets so many more snaps if we ran more, but we don't soooo

[Paulus]

1 hour ago, CSBill said:

 

Not quite sure what I'm reading here, but at first glance, it doesn't seem too bad. Obviously, the right side is weaker, but still not awful (middle of the pack at 17)? Am I missing something?

Yes, that is running. My main concern with the right side is really pass protection. Honesty, the stats for running right are better than I thought they'd be. 

[atlbillsfan1975]

After watching the game Sunday I was struck with the belief that Allen mainly rolls right. Are there any stats anywhere to support my observation for this year? Wondering if this is something I just perceive due to the plays which occurred when Allen rolled out right or there is some merit to my belief. 

[Solomon Grundy]

 

Nsehke was one of the most sought after OTs in FA. Ford is an early Round 2 guy we traded UP FOR. The right side of the line has been addressed. Cody is enduring a baptism under fire. That was Leagues Best Defense we just played.

 

Dammit! I hate the week after Pats* games.

The thing is that Nsekhe has more playing experience at RT than Ford. Against the hated Pats, you want to play your best vs the best. Ford can wear his training pants against lesser opponents, imo. Nsekhe isnt great either, but he is better than Ford so far.

[Logic]

The entire right side needs help? I disagree.

Nsekhe needs to ALWAYS be the starter at RT. Enough with the Ford/Nsekhe rotation.

Feliciano is a damn good RG. He didn't have his best game against the Pats, but hey, he's not going to dominate every single week. If you have Nsekhe at RT full time, you can also let Ford devote all of his time to competing with Feliciano to start at RG, and may the best man win.

Trading for Trent Williams and forcing him to play right tackle is not the answer and isn't going to happen.

[Buffalo Junction]

47 minutes ago, Logic said:

The entire right side needs help? I disagree.

Nsekhe needs to ALWAYS be the starter at RT. Enough with the Ford/Nsekhe rotation.

Feliciano is a damn good RG. He didn't have his best game against the Pats, but hey, he's not going to dominate every single week. If you have Nsekhe at RT full time, you can also let Ford devote all of his time to competing with Feliciano to start at RG, and may the best man win.

Trading for Trent Williams and forcing him to play right tackle is not the answer and isn't going to happen.

Feliciano was also coming off of that neck injury. He likely played with a stiff neck because it was a big game, and his play will likely rebound. 

 

IMO, our biggest issue is that Nsekhe isn’t a great RT. I used to live in VA and watched a bunch of skins games. He’s a much better LT than RT. However, he’s average on the right side and one of the best swing tackles in the game.

 

Beane took a scattershot approach and patched the oline. These guys aren’t top players, but they’re not full time liabilities either. I think we’ll see some more shakeups in the offseason. IIRC, Spain is on a 1-year deal. It’s possible they let him go after the season and move Dawkins, Ford, or Feliciano to LG next season. Wait and see. I’m happy with a middling line this year. Next year I want better. 

[ndirish1978]

I know switching sides of the line isn't an easy thing to do, but I would like to see Ford at LG.

[ctk232]

3 hours ago, Paulus said:

Yes, that is running. My main concern with the right side is really pass protection. Honesty, the stats for running right are better than I thought they'd be. 

So more in reply to this, but slightly also in terms of your original post as well - there could be a few reasons this is how it appears by sight in-game. Apologies in advance for the textbook that follows:

 

While I'm obviously no expert, the pass pro issues you are seeing are likely a combination of factors: Allen has been holding on to the ball longer (more frequently in the past 2 games than his first two), we have a true rookie and a veteran tackle on the right side but both are rookies within our offensive scheme, and, as an extension of the latter, this entire line has only played together for four games thus far. Another infrequent variable are the times when Allen supersedes the protection calls by Morse and Daboll pre-snap - there have been a handful of occasions where Allen has shifted the protection incorrectly, often leaving a free/added blitzer on the edge unaccounted for, but this is only momentarily applicable to those instances.

 

It's difficult to assess proper pass pro when Allen tends to hold on to the ball or leave the pocket too early - these are both well-documented in the All-22 reviews by the Athletic and Cover1 and I can try and track down some footage to cite. But these instances often skew pass pro as clearly the longer you have to hold an edge rush the greater the likelihood of a holding penalty being called or a collapsed pocket leading to a sack/pressure. Similarly, if he leaves the pocket too early (the Pats forced him to do this and planned for him to go to the right side) there isn't much the RT can do to hold that block to the sidelines. We're also only returning one guy from the past year, and 5/6 guys we currently rotate are seeing this offense and blocking schemes for the first time - it takes a few weeks of real game coordination for a new line to mesh effectively. Considering the complexity of the offense, there's likely still some issues with how blitzes, delayed rushes, and stunts are picked up and passed off - compounded by how long Josh has been holding onto the ball. Specific to Ford, the pre-draft concerns were with his footwork and ability to transition to play RT immediately - this debate is also well-established on the board already, but my consensus was that he'd be a better interior lineman immediately, but has the potential to play tackle if he works on his footwork. He could still very well develop in this regard, it won't happen overnight.

 

To avoid a novel here, the run blocking performance is consistently effective, but the bottom line with pass pro is more or less that to have 5/6 starting OL guys in their first year of an offense will likely have some initial growing pains as they learn the protections and coordinate with one another. Run blocking can be difficult to pick up schematically, but quicker/easier to grasp as they tend to be more man to man assignments rather than processing rushes and anticipating stunts/pins/rolls. I don't think our right side is anything to write home about at present, but considering where we were a year ago this is a phenomenal short term replacement job by Beane. Given Spain and Nsekhe's age - I wouldn't be surprised to see Ford kicked inside next year and us pursuing another Tackle next year/in the draft if we don't see improvement from Nsekhe. But for now, I think if you see Josh play within the pocket more and get the ball out more quickly you see a better OL grade overall.

Edited October 2, 2019 by ctk232

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I do wonder if part of the problem too isn't enough continuity yet for the starters.  That concerned me pre-season with Morse basically missing the entire time, then juggling Ford, Ty and Feliciano.  Maybe it will improve some with time, but the juggling also continues.  The problem ultimately comes down to their 5 best players are a center, three guards and a questionable tackle. 

 

Does make me wonder a little about Ford long term.  Do they feel that give him a year and he'll be OK at RT or will he always be much stronger at guard.  And if so where do you play him next year?  Move either him or Feliciano to RG and not re-sign Spain??  Spain certainly isn't the week link though either.