NFL.com ranks Top 25 QB's of All Time: Jim Kelly #21

[ThurmasThoman]

On 7/5/2019 at 9:28 PM, ganesh said:

+1  on Brady.  When I used to watch Jordan kill my Knicks on the way to their 6 championship, I used to hate Jordan.   Now when I  watch his videos (especially when you are so detached from the Knicks!!!) he is simple amazing.    the same goes for Brady.   He is the GOAT

 

Every word of this mirrors my life experience.

The 1997 Knicks team would have beaten Jordan's Bulls in the ECF, and Stern knew it. Those suspensions were bogus. I hated Jordan for years. 

I'm not making that mistake with Tiger, and I'm not making that mistake with Brady.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 7/5/2019 at 10:36 AM, GoBills808 said:

Yes, clearly. He's first in ANY/A (the purest QB metric IMO), first in passer rating, first (this era) in TD%, first in INT%. You can easily argue he's the best QB of all time.

 

He's played his entire career in the pass happy quarterback friendly era though. Had guys like Brees, Brady and Peyton had their careers start in '07 instead of '98-2001 their averages would be much higher. And for all his greatness he only has one Conference Title. The only thing he has going for him over others is efficiency. He's also too injury prone compared to the other three I mentioned. I'd but Brees, Brady and Peyton ahead of Rodgers which means he is at best 4th in the more modern era of QBs. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 7/5/2019 at 12:27 PM, GoBills808 said:

Romo is criminally underrated, yes. Wilson gets listed because of his Super Bowl appearances, but those were due just as much to LoB so they’re clearly weighing his metrics pretty highly, in which case Rodgers should be #1 by a mile. 

 

He replaces any of the four. Probably most easily Manning.

Wins are listed under the ‘team’ category of statistics. QB stats, like the ones I mentioned, are listed for quarterbacks. There’s a difference.

 

You are greatly under rating the changes to the game that have made the passing game league wide much more efficient. These changes started to really take place somewhere around 2005-2007 and have only increased with the passing years. Rodgers might hold all the efficiency records when he retires yet in a passing league he won't hold a single totals record. That is a bit of a problem in putting him in the top four and doesn't even take into account his injury proneness and lack of postseason success.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

..21 is about right....Marv's leadership or lack thereof, as in not being able to atone for his mistakes with an unconscionable four consecutive SB losses drags Kelly's rating down IMO.....Kelly or some other  leader should have been able to wake Marv from his missteps IMO..........

[Rocket94]

11 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

..21 is about right....Marv's leadership or lack thereof, as in not being able to atone for his mistakes with an unconscionable four consecutive SB losses drags Kelly's rating down IMO.....Kelly or some other  leader should have been able to wake Marv from his missteps IMO..........

Levy looked worn and weary after the missed FG!

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

..21 is about right....Marv's leadership or lack thereof, as in not being able to atone for his mistakes with an unconscionable four consecutive SB losses drags Kelly's rating down IMO.....Kelly or some other  leader should have been able to wake Marv from his missteps IMO..........

Kelly was a terrible leader for a lot of his Bills career. He single handedly nearly destroyed the Bills.

On 7/6/2019 at 7:15 AM, thebandit27 said:

 

Here's the problem with Marino: he went to a Super Bowl very early in his career, lost, and never returned.

 

That, on its face, is not the story.

 

The real story is that a QB from his same draft class entered the division a year later and proceeded to dominate the division for a decade.

 

I mean, we discount Jimbo for not winning the big one, and that's a single game played at the end of a grueling 6 month run. The division is a cumulative performance. If you cant win your own division, how great can you really be?

 

Did Marino ever beat either Elway or Kelly in the playoffs? Even once? Honestly asking because I haven't looked it up (admittedly I should; I am being lazy).

 

Marino was a great passer and deserves to be on this list. He isn't in the conversation as a top-tier, GOAT guy IMO.

 

PS happy fourth to you and yours ??

The Bills had a much better team than the Fins or Broncos.  Miami has crap rbs and a soft defense.  Those Elway teams were terrible.  Honestly we’re hairs here but if switch Kelly with either Marino or Elway, I think we win at least one SB.  Those guys were just better overall qbs than Kelly. Kelly played on one of the most stacked teams of all time.  Again, he’s very good but those guys are great IMo.

[thebandit27]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Kelly was a terrible leader for a lot of his Bills career. He single handedly nearly destroyed the Bills.

The Bills had a much better team than the Fins or Broncos.  Miami has crap rbs and a soft defense.  Those Elway teams were terrible.  Honestly we’re hairs here but if switch Kelly with either Marino or Elway, I think we win at least one SB.  Those guys were just better overall qbs than Kelly. Kelly played on one of the most stacked teams of all time.  Again, he’s very good but those guys are great IMo.

 

So great that they...did what while Kelly was playing?

 

Isn't it worth acknowledging that neither QB went to a Super Bowl during Kelly's career, but both did so before/after he retired?

 

If we can "scoreboard" Jimbo outside of top-10 consideration due to no Super Bowl rings, can't we "scoreboard" his classmates for literally NEVER beating him?

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

So great that they...did what while Kelly was playing?

 

Isn't it worth acknowledging that neither QB went to a Super Bowl during Kelly's career, but both did so before/after he retired?

 

If we can "scoreboard" Jimbo outside of top-10 consideration due to no Super Bowl rings, can't we "scoreboard" his classmates for literally NEVER beating him?

Bandit, let me start off by saying I respect you as a poster and generally get where you’re coming from.  But man, I’ve never disagree with you more.  I think your bias is getting in the way here.  No where but a Bills board would it even be considered that Kelly is better than Marino or Elway.  

 

1). The SB argument is beyond stupid. Kelly isn’t a top 10 QBs because he lost SBs.  He’s just simply not a top 10 qb.  Aaron Rodgers, a top 10 QB IMO has lost playoff games where he scored 45 points. Eli Manning gets carried by his defense and gets lucky and has 2 SB wins.  By the rings argument, ElI is better than Rodgers which is insane.  

 

2) I was really young but Kelly was an awful leader. Started the bickering Bills.  Had some Big Ben type stories.  He’s matured with age but that stuff matters. 

 

3) again, I was young, but please review those Broncos and Fins teams.  They are a joke minus their qbs.  Elway and Marino carries their teams.  The Elway teams that went to the SBs before TD were literally some of the worst SB teams ever. 

 

Kelly was part of a machine.  Played with a top 10 Rb of all time. 2 HOF receivers.  The defense had a top 5 DE.  Pro bowl and HOF oline,  the talent difference between the Bills and Broncos and Fins was night and day.

 

4) Kelly was awful in the playoffs.  Like he sucked.  They won in spite of him.  And on the biggest stages, he is one of the worst SB qbs ever.

 

Kelly is our greatest QB and a well deserved HOF.  But man is he overrated here (I get it).  Frank Reich could step in and they didn’t miss a beat.  Next to the Cowboys, the Bills had the best rosters in the nfl.  One of the greatest collection of talent ever and a lot of good QBs would have thrived, JMO.

[GoBills808]

8 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

You are greatly under rating the changes to the game that have made the passing game league wide much more efficient. These changes started to really take place somewhere around 2005-2007 and have only increased with the passing years. Rodgers might hold all the efficiency records when he retires yet in a passing league he won't hold a single totals record. That is a bit of a problem in putting him in the top four and doesn't even take into account his injury proneness and lack of postseason success.

Totals are more a record of longevity than anything, unless you think Emmitt Smith is the greatest running back ever. Gross total records and injury history don’t really factor that much to me personally.

27 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Bandit, let me start off by saying I respect you as a poster and generally get where you’re coming from.  But man, I’ve never disagree with you more.  I think your bias is getting in the way here.  No where but a Bills board would it even be considered that Kelly is better than Marino or Elway.  

 

1). The SB argument is beyond stupid. Kelly isn’t a top 10 QBs because he lost SBs.  He’s just simply not a top 10 qb.  Aaron Rodgers, a top 10 QB IMO has lost playoff games where he scored 45 points. Eli Manning gets carried by his defense and gets lucky and has 2 SB wins.  By the rings argument, ElI is better than Rodgers which is insane.  

 

2) I was really young but Kelly was an awful leader. Started the bickering Bills.  Had some Big Ben type stories.  He’s matured with age but that stuff matters. 

 

3) again, I was young, but please review those Broncos and Fins teams.  They are a joke minus their qbs.  Elway and Marino carries their teams.  The Elway teams that went to the SBs before TD were literally some of the worst SB teams ever. 

 

Kelly was part of a machine.  Played with a top 10 Rb of all time. 2 HOF receivers.  The defense had a top 5 DE.  Pro bowl and HOF oline,  the talent difference between the Bills and Broncos and Fins was night and day.

 

4) Kelly was awful in the playoffs.  Like he sucked.  They won in spite of him.  And on the biggest stages, he is one of the worst SB qbs ever.

 

Kelly is our greatest QB and a well deserved HOF.  But man is he overrated here (I get it).  Frank Reich could step in and they didn’t miss a beat.  Next to the Cowboys, the Bills had the best rosters in the nfl.  One of the greatest collection of talent ever and a lot of good QBs would have thrived, JMO.

 

I think you can absolutely argue that Kelly was a better QB than Elway. Marino not so much.

[folz]

A few things about the article and/or posts in this thread...

 

1. I'd only be mad if Kelly wasn't on the list at all. As others said, it's somewhat subjective. I'd have him a bit higher, but this list is obviously weighing Super Bowl wins as one of the most significant factors. 

 

2. The idea that the NFC was great and the AFC was pathetic during the Bills Super Bowl runs is actually a fallacy. The Bills also dominated the NFC in the regular season during those years and the records of the AFC vs. NFC were pretty even. It was just that during the Super Bowl years, the NFC had, say 2 or 3 of the top 3 or 4 teams in the NFL (the Bills being the lone AFC team) each year. But it wasn't like the NFC was stacked top to bottom and the AFC was pathetic. It was actually pretty even outside of those few dominant teams winning Super Bowls. The Bills may have had, say, one easier playoff game each season than their NFC opponent, but it's not like they had a cakewalk thru the season, while the NFC teams were playing All-Star rosters every week. And the Bills did beat the Giants in the regular season the same year as they lost the Super Bowl to them, they beat Dallas in the regular season between their two Super Bowl loses to them, they beat the 49ers in the regular season during their prime, etc. It's not like the Bills beat up on terrible AFC teams, but couldn't also beat the cream of the crop of the NFC (unfortunately, just not in the Super Bowls).

 

3. The idea that Marv Levy was a bad coach or even just not that good, has to be put to bed also. Yes, that team was stacked with talent, but there were also a ton of egos. Levy led those men and got them all pulling in the same direction, playing as a team and family. A lot of coaches wouldn't have been able to pull it off with that bunch. The NFL has seen a lot of very talented teams that didn't win squat because they couldn't come together. Coaching is a hell of a lot more than just Xs and Os. And for all of the Levy getting outcoached talk, he was two feet away from beating two genius coaches (Parcells and Bellichick) in a Super Bowl. And if you say it's only because the Bills had more talent, well, I would again point out the week 15 game in that same season where the Bills won a hard fought 17-13 game against those same G-Men. Those teams were actually very evenly matched. Or if the Giants were so devoid of talent that year, how did they beat Montana and Rice's 49ers in the NFC Championship game? And a last point on talent level, in 1990, the Bills had 5 first team All Pros, the Giants had 4 1st team All Pros (Bills had 3 second teamers, Giants had 2 second teamers). The Bills had 10 Pro Bowlers, the Giants had 8 Pro Bowlers. Not that big of a gap. As for Washington in the 3rd Super Bowl, what can you say but they were a team of destiny that year. And although I hate to admit it, Dallas was just a better team than the Bills by the last two Super Bowls. But, other than the Super Bowls, Levy won a hell of a lot of games, a bad coach doesn't do that even with a talented team. In his 11 full seasons with the Bills, his winning percentage was 63%. He is 21st in overall wins by an NFL coach, 11th in playoff wins, and tied for 4th in most conference championships. And don't tell me it's just because the Bills had a lot of talent. On lists of great NFL teams, those Bills teams don't even make the top 25. Every great team had a lot of talent and every coach considered to be great, had great talent. Marv was a damn good coach.

 

4. Players I think are too high on that QB list: R. Staubach, A. Rodgers, T. Aikman, R. Wilson, B. Roethlisberger, K. Warner. (Aikman shouldn't even be on the list, as others said, let alone top 15. He was a good QB on an amazing team, not a great QB.)

 

5. And no love for Dan Fouts or Philip Rivers? Is there some anti-San Diego bias? ?

 

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by folz

[Wayne Cubed]

On 7/6/2019 at 7:25 PM, klos63 said:

Let's use that same argument with Kelly.  Reed , Thomas, Lofton - Hall of Fame, - Wolford, Ritcher , Hull, Ballard - Pro Bowl lineman and worthy of HoF consideration,  McKeller, Metzellaars - high quality TE's. Our lineup was stacked just like Dallas.

 

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make and how that discounts Jimbo. He actually has the production to back up playing with those players. And let's not forget Jimbo spent 2 years in the AFL and I'm pretty sure if he were in the NFL in that time he would have blown Aikman out of the water in terms of production. Even without those 2 years, he still out preforms Aikman, in less games and about 50 more attempts. 

 

Aikman should be in the Hall of Very Good, I don't think he's one of the greatest to ever play the position.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

14 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Totals are more a record of longevity than anything, unless you think Emmitt Smith is the greatest running back ever. Gross total records and injury history don’t really factor that much to me personally.

 

Totals can also be single season. As some others have mentioned he's also nowhere near the single season leaders in TD's or yards. I do think longevity and injury history should play a factor in a players greatness too provided they played at an elite level for their entire career. Brady and Peyton are pretty good examples of this. And the fact that they hardly ever missed games or had nagging injuries helped their teams. Rodgers seems to play with a lot of injuries (like all of last season) and that doesn't bode well for helping his team win over the course of an entire season. He is going to have to prove more to me than just being the most efficient QB ever playing entirely in the pass friendly era. 

[thebandit27]

16 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Bandit, let me start off by saying I respect you as a poster and generally get where you’re coming from.  But man, I’ve never disagree with you more.  I think your bias is getting in the way here.  No where but a Bills board would it even be considered that Kelly is better than Marino or Elway.  

 

1). The SB argument is beyond stupid. Kelly isn’t a top 10 QBs because he lost SBs.  He’s just simply not a top 10 qb.  Aaron Rodgers, a top 10 QB IMO has lost playoff games where he scored 45 points. Eli Manning gets carried by his defense and gets lucky and has 2 SB wins.  By the rings argument, ElI is better than Rodgers which is insane.  

 

2) I was really young but Kelly was an awful leader. Started the bickering Bills.  Had some Big Ben type stories.  He’s matured with age but that stuff matters. 

 

3) again, I was young, but please review those Broncos and Fins teams.  They are a joke minus their qbs.  Elway and Marino carries their teams.  The Elway teams that went to the SBs before TD were literally some of the worst SB teams ever. 

 

Kelly was part of a machine.  Played with a top 10 Rb of all time. 2 HOF receivers.  The defense had a top 5 DE.  Pro bowl and HOF oline,  the talent difference between the Bills and Broncos and Fins was night and day.

 

4) Kelly was awful in the playoffs.  Like he sucked.  They won in spite of him.  And on the biggest stages, he is one of the worst SB qbs ever.

 

Kelly is our greatest QB and a well deserved HOF.  But man is he overrated here (I get it).  Frank Reich could step in and they didn’t miss a beat.  Next to the Cowboys, the Bills had the best rosters in the nfl.  One of the greatest collection of talent ever and a lot of good QBs would have thrived, JMO.

 

I think the problem is that you're misunderstanding where I rank these guys.

 

I said from the start that when ranking Kelly, top-15 felt right to me.  I actually said that I have a top 4, then a HUGE gap to the rest of the top 16, and then another big gap.  So that is to say that I would put Kelly in the top 16, but clearly outside of the top 4 of Unitas, Montana, Manning, and Brady.

 

When it comes to Elway and Marino, what I'm saying is that there's no way on earth I'd put either guy in a tier above Kelly.  If you want to rank them above him within the same tier, fine, no qualms whatsoever.  But for either guy to be ranked a full tier above Kelly would require, for me, them to have been more successful when they were in the league at the same time.  I mean, how can either guy be considered a tier above Kelly, a first-ballot HOFer, when they literally never made the Super Bowl during his career?

 

You can say that Kelly had some advantage playing with HOFers, but let's be honest here: it isn't like Marino and Elway were playing with stiffs.  Mark Duper and Mark Clayton both had close to 9,000 career receiving yards. Both had close to 600 career receptions.  Elway got to play with Rod Smith and Shannon Sharpe, and won his only Super Bowls when the Broncos had a top 5 rushing offense.

 

As for playoff career, "awful" and "sucked" are fairly hyperbolic.  You can easily support that he was awful in the Super Bowls (well, at least the last 3, I'd argue that putting up a point per minute in the first Super Bowl is pretty darn okay); even say that he was lousy in AFC Championship games (again, outside the first one).  Divisional and WC games, he was just fine (not great).  But again, compare that to Marino and Elway...I think you'll find that all 3 have fairly similar playoff passing numbers.

 

Again, none of this is to say that Kelly is better than those guys; it's to say that those 2 did nothing (IMO) to separate themselves into a higher tier than Kelly.

[KRC]

Any article like this will always skew towards modern players. He at least makes an attempt to put in deserving QBs from past eras. You can definitely put older QBs in the discussion. The problem is that people just look at stats and think that they know the story.

 

My rankings for top 5:

1. Graham

2. Brady (I usually do not rate players before they retire, but I make an exception here)

3. Unitas

4. Baugh

5. Montana

 

Baugh and Montana are relatively interchangeable. Using strictly QB play, Montana. However, you need to look at the totality of the player's contributions on the field. Baugh takes it over Montana.

 

 

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Totals can also be single season. As some others have mentioned he's also nowhere near the single season leaders in TD's or yards. I do think longevity and injury history should play a factor in a players greatness too provided they played at an elite level for their entire career. Brady and Peyton are pretty good examples of this. And the fact that they hardly ever missed games or had nagging injuries helped their teams. Rodgers seems to play with a lot of injuries (like all of last season) and that doesn't bode well for helping his team win over the course of an entire season. He is going to have to prove more to me than just being the most efficient QB ever playing entirely in the pass friendly era. 

 

Peyton Manning player at an elite level his entire career? No nagging injuries? Wha?

 

 

[416BillsFan]

On 7/5/2019 at 7:52 PM, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Peyton and Brady?

Thanks - even though they only played in the same division for the 2001 season, it would be remiss not to mention.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, 416BillsFan said:

Thanks - even though they only played in the same division for the 2001 season, it would be remiss not to mention.

 

My bad, I missed that qualifier. I'll chalk it up to old age

 

[Nihilarian]

On 7/6/2019 at 7:15 AM, thebandit27 said:

 

Here's the problem with Marino: he went to a Super Bowl very early in his career, lost, and never returned.

 

That, on its face, is not the story.

 

The real story is that a QB from his same draft class entered the division a year later and proceeded to dominate the division for a decade.

 

I mean, we discount Jimbo for not winning the big one, and that's a single game played at the end of a grueling 6 month run. The division is a cumulative performance. If you cant win your own division, how great can you really be?

 

Did Marino ever beat either Elway or Kelly in the playoffs? Even once? Honestly asking because I haven't looked it up (admittedly I should; I am being lazy).

 

Marino was a great passer and deserves to be on this list. He isn't in the conversation as a top-tier, GOAT guy IMO.

 

PS happy fourth to you and yours ??

While I love Kelly and think he should be in the top 25. Let's not forget that a big difference between those early 90's Bills, Broncos and Dolphins were Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith.

 

Thurman was around 70% of that Buffalo offense and the Bills usually ran the ball more then they threw it. I can recall Marino saying he wished the Dolphins had a RB like Thomas all those years.  While Thurman only had two 2000 yard seasons he came close three other times. 

 

In 1989 the Broncos signed Bruce Smith to a 5 year, 7.5 million dollar contract and the Bills had a week to match the offer or get two first round picks in return. (At the time I kept hearing that Wilson wanted the Picks). Thank you, Bill Polian! 

 

Would the Bills have even made it to a SB without either Thomas or Smith?

[2003Contenders]

On 7/8/2019 at 1:27 AM, folz said:

A few things about the article and/or posts in this thread...

 

1. I'd only be mad if Kelly wasn't on the list at all. As others said, it's somewhat subjective. I'd have him a bit higher, but this list is obviously weighing Super Bowl wins as one of the most significant factors. 

 

2. The idea that the NFC was great and the AFC was pathetic during the Bills Super Bowl runs is actually a fallacy. The Bills also dominated the NFC in the regular season during those years and the records of the AFC vs. NFC were pretty even. It was just that during the Super Bowl years, the NFC had, say 2 or 3 of the top 3 or 4 teams in the NFL (the Bills being the lone AFC team) each year. But it wasn't like the NFC was stacked top to bottom and the AFC was pathetic. It was actually pretty even outside of those few dominant teams winning Super Bowls. The Bills may have had, say, one easier playoff game each season than their NFC opponent, but it's not like they had a cakewalk thru the season, while the NFC teams were playing All-Star rosters every week. And the Bills did beat the Giants in the regular season the same year as they lost the Super Bowl to them, they beat Dallas in the regular season between their two Super Bowl loses to them, they beat the 49ers in the regular season during their prime, etc. It's not like the Bills beat up on terrible AFC teams, but couldn't also beat the cream of the crop of the NFC (unfortunately, just not in the Super Bowls).

 

3. The idea that Marv Levy was a bad coach or even just not that good, has to be put to bed also. Yes, that team was stacked with talent, but there were also a ton of egos. Levy led those men and got them all pulling in the same direction, playing as a team and family. A lot of coaches wouldn't have been able to pull it off with that bunch. The NFL has seen a lot of very talented teams that didn't win squat because they couldn't come together. Coaching is a hell of a lot more than just Xs and Os. And for all of the Levy getting outcoached talk, he was two feet away from beating two genius coaches (Parcells and Bellichick) in a Super Bowl. And if you say it's only because the Bills had more talent, well, I would again point out the week 15 game in that same season where the Bills won a hard fought 17-13 game against those same G-Men. Those teams were actually very evenly matched. Or if the Giants were so devoid of talent that year, how did they beat Montana and Rice's 49ers in the NFC Championship game? And a last point on talent level, in 1990, the Bills had 5 first team All Pros, the Giants had 4 1st team All Pros (Bills had 3 second teamers, Giants had 2 second teamers). The Bills had 10 Pro Bowlers, the Giants had 8 Pro Bowlers. Not that big of a gap. As for Washington in the 3rd Super Bowl, what can you say but they were a team of destiny that year. And although I hate to admit it, Dallas was just a better team than the Bills by the last two Super Bowls. But, other than the Super Bowls, Levy won a hell of a lot of games, a bad coach doesn't do that even with a talented team. In his 11 full seasons with the Bills, his winning percentage was 63%. He is 21st in overall wins by an NFL coach, 11th in playoff wins, and tied for 4th in most conference championships. And don't tell me it's just because the Bills had a lot of talent. On lists of great NFL teams, those Bills teams don't even make the top 25. Every great team had a lot of talent and every coach considered to be great, had great talent. Marv was a damn good coach.

 

4. Players I think are too high on that QB list: R. Staubach, A. Rodgers, T. Aikman, R. Wilson, B. Roethlisberger, K. Warner. (Aikman shouldn't even be on the list, as others said, let alone top 15. He was a good QB on an amazing team, not a great QB.)

 

5. And no love for Dan Fouts or Philip Rivers? Is there some anti-San Diego bias? ?

 

 

 

All good points.

 

The thing to remember also is that, when Bill Polian built that team in the mid-80s, the goal was to win the division first -- which meant besting Marino's Dolphins. That is exactly what he did. The 88-93 Bills were a team that offensively was prolific enough to keep up with the Dolphins aerial attack -- with a defense that placed a great deal of emphasis on the pass rush and secondary. Alas, those teams were NOT built to match up well against the smash-mouth teams of the NFC East. As fate would have it, all four Super Bowls were played against the NFC East.

 

A pity none of those Buffalo teams matched up against the 49ers in the Big Game.

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

While I love Kelly and think he should be in the top 25. Let's not forget that a big difference between those early 90's Bills, Broncos and Dolphins were Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith.

 

Thurman was around 70% of that Buffalo offense and the Bills usually ran the ball more then they threw it. I can recall Marino saying he wished the Dolphins had a RB like Thomas all those years.  While Thurman only had two 2000 yard seasons he came close three other times. 

 

In 1989 the Broncos signed Bruce Smith to a 5 year, 7.5 million dollar contract and the Bills had a week to match the offer or get two first round picks in return. (At the time I kept hearing that Wilson wanted the Picks). Thank you, Bill Polian! 

 

Would the Bills have even made it to a SB without either Thomas or Smith?

 

Thurman was remarkable; nobody is denying that.  What I'm saying is that it's not as though Marino was playing without talent around him.  They actually had fairly productive RBs during his tenure there.  Defensively, John Offerdahl made the pro bowl 5 consecutive seasons in the 80's, Jeff Cross was a double-digit sack guy in multiple seasons; Bryan Cox had 14.5 sacks in 1992 and was a 3-time pro bowler. Toward the end of his career, Trace Armstrong put up 35.5 sacks over 4 seasons.

 

Again, the point here isn't to say that Kelly was better than either Marino or Elway; the point is that those guys didn't win over and above what you'd expect for guys that are supposed to be next-level compared to Jimbo, and the disparity in their respective supporting casts doesn't make up for the difference IMO.

[dave mcbride]

The thing about Kelly is that he had a couple of pretty spectacular seasons in the USFL. The USFL wasn't the NFL, obviously, but it had a ton of talent. Over the course of two seasons, he passed for 9,842 yards, 83 TDs, 45 INTs, and a 98.0 rating. I doubt he would have put up those numbers in the NFL, but in terms of physical talent, those were a couple of his peak seasons, and he probably would have been at least pretty good. In his final playoff game in that league, the Gamblers lost 22-20 to the Birmingham Stallions, which featured none other than Joe Cribbs, who ran for 1,467 yards that season (and 70 yards on 16 carries in the playoff game). 

[Nihilarian]

If you go back and look at 1987 thru 1999 the Dolphins didn't have any RB anywhere near the level of Thurman Thomas. From what I see the Dolphins didn't even have a 1000 yard rusher while Marino was there in those years. 

 

Miami made the playoffs in 1990,  lost the Division to Buffalo. In 1992 Miami lost the AFC Championship game in Miami to Buffalo. They lost the Division in 1994 and a WC in 1995. 
BTW, 1999 was Marino's last year in Miami as Jimmy Johnson took over from Don Shula in 1996. The Dolphins made the playoffs nine seasons with Marino at QB and in the later years they simply couldn't get by Buffalo.

 

While Marino made the HoF, did any of his teammates ever make the hall? RB, WR, DE, anyone? The Marks Brothers, Mark Clayton, Mark Duper... nada! 

 

How many players from those late 80's early 90s Bills in the Hall? Thomas, Kelly, Reed, Smith, Lofton  and Tasker should be in too. HM, Bennett 14 seasons in the NFL, Tally 14 seasons in the NFL. LT Will Wolford 13 seasons in the NFL, LG Jim Ritcher 16 seasons in the NFL, C Kent Hull 11 seasons in the NFL. Miami didn't have talent like this! 

 

 

Also, Don Shula forgot what won him his early super bowls with the 68 Colts, they ran the ball. The 1972 Miami Dolphins 259 attempts passing, 613 attempts rushing! Nearly the same thing in 1973 with 256 attempts passing, 507 attempts rushing. 

 

 

Sorta the same thing with John Elway as Denver went to the SB on John Elway's arm as he didn't have a 1000 yard rusher or receiver in the SB seasons of 1986, 1987.

Denver won a SB with the legs of HoF RB Terrell Davis, 1750 yards rushing, 15 TDs in 1997. He also had HoF TE Shannon Sharpe at that time. Not to mention Rod Smith. 

 

Here is an interesting list,  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm

[klos63]

On 7/7/2019 at 10:27 PM, folz said:

A few things about the article and/or posts in this thread...

 

1. I'd only be mad if Kelly wasn't on the list at all. As others said, it's somewhat subjective. I'd have him a bit higher, but this list is obviously weighing Super Bowl wins as one of the most significant factors. 

 

2. The idea that the NFC was great and the AFC was pathetic during the Bills Super Bowl runs is actually a fallacy. The Bills also dominated the NFC in the regular season during those years and the records of the AFC vs. NFC were pretty even. It was just that during the Super Bowl years, the NFC had, say 2 or 3 of the top 3 or 4 teams in the NFL (the Bills being the lone AFC team) each year. But it wasn't like the NFC was stacked top to bottom and the AFC was pathetic. It was actually pretty even outside of those few dominant teams winning Super Bowls. The Bills may have had, say, one easier playoff game each season than their NFC opponent, but it's not like they had a cakewalk thru the season, while the NFC teams were playing All-Star rosters every week. And the Bills did beat the Giants in the regular season the same year as they lost the Super Bowl to them, they beat Dallas in the regular season between their two Super Bowl loses to them, they beat the 49ers in the regular season during their prime, etc. It's not like the Bills beat up on terrible AFC teams, but couldn't also beat the cream of the crop of the NFC (unfortunately, just not in the Super Bowls).

 

3. The idea that Marv Levy was a bad coach or even just not that good, has to be put to bed also. Yes, that team was stacked with talent, but there were also a ton of egos. Levy led those men and got them all pulling in the same direction, playing as a team and family. A lot of coaches wouldn't have been able to pull it off with that bunch. The NFL has seen a lot of very talented teams that didn't win squat because they couldn't come together. Coaching is a hell of a lot more than just Xs and Os. And for all of the Levy getting outcoached talk, he was two feet away from beating two genius coaches (Parcells and Bellichick) in a Super Bowl. And if you say it's only because the Bills had more talent, well, I would again point out the week 15 game in that same season where the Bills won a hard fought 17-13 game against those same G-Men. Those teams were actually very evenly matched. Or if the Giants were so devoid of talent that year, how did they beat Montana and Rice's 49ers in the NFC Championship game? And a last point on talent level, in 1990, the Bills had 5 first team All Pros, the Giants had 4 1st team All Pros (Bills had 3 second teamers, Giants had 2 second teamers). The Bills had 10 Pro Bowlers, the Giants had 8 Pro Bowlers. Not that big of a gap. As for Washington in the 3rd Super Bowl, what can you say but they were a team of destiny that year. And although I hate to admit it, Dallas was just a better team than the Bills by the last two Super Bowls. But, other than the Super Bowls, Levy won a hell of a lot of games, a bad coach doesn't do that even with a talented team. In his 11 full seasons with the Bills, his winning percentage was 63%. He is 21st in overall wins by an NFL coach, 11th in playoff wins, and tied for 4th in most conference championships. And don't tell me it's just because the Bills had a lot of talent. On lists of great NFL teams, those Bills teams don't even make the top 25. Every great team had a lot of talent and every coach considered to be great, had great talent. Marv was a damn good coach.

 

4. Players I think are too high on that QB list: R. Staubach, A. Rodgers, T. Aikman, R. Wilson, B. Roethlisberger, K. Warner. (Aikman shouldn't even be on the list, as others said, let alone top 15. He was a good QB on an amazing team, not a great QB.)

 

5. And no love for Dan Fouts or Philip Rivers? Is there some anti-San Diego bias? ?

 

 

Staubach was amazing. Until Montana probably the most clutch QB ever.  As far as the criticism of Aikman being a good player on a great team, you could probably say that about a lot of people on those teams. They made each other better.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

On 7/7/2019 at 2:38 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Kelly was a terrible leader for a lot of his Bills career. He single handedly nearly destroyed the Bills.

The Bills had a much better team than the Fins or Broncos.  Miami has crap rbs and a soft defense.  Those Elway teams were terrible.  Honestly we’re hairs here but if switch Kelly with either Marino or Elway, I think we win at least one SB.  Those guys were just better overall qbs than Kelly. Kelly played on one of the most stacked teams of all time.  Again, he’s very good but those guys are great IMo.

Not following your logic whatsoever. How can both of these statements in bold be true at the same time? The fact of the matter is the first one about him ‘nearly destroying’ the Bills removes any further credibility from the rest of your argument, given how wildly over the top and without provable merit it is, sorry. I don't have to be a “homer” to spot that. All you need to do is look at the reality of what came before Kelly and what came after—any of those clowns would be deserving of that title, but you chose to bestow it on Kelly? Let’s keep it real. The Hall of Fame also would like to respectfully disagree with your hot take. 

 

I watched him play and always knew he gave the Bills a chance in almost every game, no matter the down/distance. He led the Bills to heights unmatched in our franchise NFL history, breaking new offensive ground in the process, and left it all on the field including his long term health. Bottom line is if you’d bet against Kelly in the playoffs going up against other HOFers like Marino, Elway, Moon or Montana, you’d still be working off your tab to the bookie.

[Alaska Darin]

I can only imagine how Kelly would be perceived with Wade Phillips as his DC instead of Walt Corey.

 

Joe Montana never won a SB without a defense rated lower than #3 in the NFL.  Teams win titles, not individual players. 

 

If I was starting a team in ANY era, I'd take Steve Young.

[Niagara Bill]

Where are Y.A. Tittle and Sonny Jurguson.?

Wilson before Rivers...no way possible.

 

So many greats. Winning is over rated in some cases but eras are very important. Athletes are more valued today in some ways due to style of defensive football. Running backs are less valued so QB s have picked up the slack.

 

I support Kelly in top 15.

[Ga boy]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 7:49 PM, GoBills808 said:

Totals are more a record of longevity than anything, unless you think Emmitt Smith is the greatest running back ever. Gross total records and injury history don’t really factor that much to me personally.

 

I think you can absolutely argue that Kelly was a better QB than Elway. Marino not so much.

Yes, you make some great points here. Marino wins us 3 SBs.  Many of the guys rated higher than Jimbo would have won us a couple.  In the SBs, the opponent defenses and o-lines pushed us around.  We might have been out-QBed, but we were definitely out-coached.  Any of the opponent coaches would have won with our players.  Coaching matters!!  Go Bills!!!  

[Nihilarian]

On 7/7/2019 at 7:49 PM, GoBills808 said:

I think you can absolutely argue that Kelly was a better QB than Elway. Marino not so much.

My take is all three are great HoF QBs and each in his own way. 

 

Jim Kelly first learned the run and shoot under "mouse" Davis in the USFL and then learned under ex Colts HC Ted Marchibroda who taught Kelly to call his own plays. After Ole Ted was rehired by to Colts as HC,(after 1991) Kelly was basically all on his own calling offensive plays.

 

Elway had Mike Shanahan who built a team good enough to win a SB. Elway had 31 comeback games and was known as Mr comeback.

 

Marino during his time in Miami never had anyone like Ted Marchibroda or Mike Shanahan to build a power offense as it was all him and his arm. Marino had 33 comebacks which is more then Mr Comeback Elway. Dan Marino didn't have an offensive genius helping him run an NFL offense either.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm

[C.Biscuit97]

On 7/10/2019 at 12:33 AM, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Not following your logic whatsoever. How can both of these statements in bold be true at the same time? The fact of the matter is the first one about him ‘nearly destroying’ the Bills removes any further credibility from the rest of your argument, given how wildly over the top and without provable merit it is, sorry. I don't have to be a “homer” to spot that. All you need to do is look at the reality of what came before Kelly and what came after—any of those clowns would be deserving of that title, but you chose to bestow it on Kelly? Let’s keep it real. The Hall of Fame also would like to respectfully disagree with your hot take. 

 

I watched him play and always knew he gave the Bills a chance in almost every game, no matter the down/distance. He led the Bills to heights unmatched in our franchise NFL history, breaking new offensive ground in the process, and left it all on the field including his long term health. Bottom line is if you’d bet against Kelly in the playoffs going up against other HOFers like Marino, Elway, Moon or Montana, you’d still be working off your tab to the bookie.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buffalorumblings.com/platform/amp/2011/6/20/2228738/bickering-bills

 

and the Bills, the most talented team of the 90s and not Jim Kelly and his 72.3 playoff rating,  won those games.   

 

 

18 hours ago, Alaska Darin said:

I can only imagine how Kelly would be perceived with Wade Phillips as his DC instead of Walt Corey.

 

Joe Montana never won a SB without a defense rated lower than #3 in the NFL.  Teams win titles, not individual players. 

 

If I was starting a team in ANY era, I'd take Steve Young.

Corey sucked (Bruce playing in a 3-4 and still doing what he did is insane).  Still, Kelly was a bad playoff qb.  

[NoHuddleKelly12]

8 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buffalorumblings.com/platform/amp/2011/6/20/2228738/bickering-bills

 

and the Bills, the most talented team of the 90s and not Jim Kelly and his 72.3 playoff rating,  won those games.   

 

 

Corey sucked (Bruce playing in a 3-4 and still doing what he did is insane).  Still, Kelly was a bad playoff qb.  

So, you give the team around Kelly all the credit for the wins? Using that kind of cherry picking logic, let's extrapolate Kelly's rating to match up with Bills playoff wins only. His rating for those playoff games where the Bills won (9 of them) is 84.4, better than Elway & Marino's cumulative playoff ratings over the same period (79, 77 respectively) 

 

Further, over the course of their complete NFL careers, Kelly also has the same 84.4 rating, Elway's is 79.9, and Marino's is 86.4. All of these numbers are available on   https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/. 

 

I readily admit I have a bias towards Kelly, but it is what it is. He's a first ballot HOFer, deservedly so, and you can never bifurcate the achievements of the Bills during their run between Kelly and everyone else on the roster. They are inextricably intertwined. He was the cog that made the wheel go, and directed the offensive playcalling himself at the line--so if Thurman rips off a big run because the defensive alignment that Kelly recognized put Thum in position to make plays for example, then you have to give Kelly extra credit there as well, not some bean counter in the press box calling plays from that ivory tower. I won't ever take anything away from Marino or Elway, but to say that Kelly is heads and shoulders beneath them in quality, is simply not backed up by the evidence. 

 

[Nihilarian]

8 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buffalorumblings.com/platform/amp/2011/6/20/2228738/bickering-bills

What that article doesn't mention is that the "bickering Bills" of 1989 sour attitude continued until week two of the 1990 season.

 

In a 30-7 week two blowout loss to the Dolphins HC Marv Levy had benched some star players late in the game and they didn't take it well at all. Most notably CB Nate Odems, Bruce Smith who after they found out that they were benched went over to the sidelines and knocked over the gatorade table, started loudly complaining like little kids.

 

This loss stung a lot of Bills players as they kept complaining in the locker room after the game. This whole thing upset both the HC and owner. The media made a big deal about the players attitudes and it caused the owner Mr Ralph Wilson to speak out and issue a warning to any Bills player who doesn't want to play for Marv Levy or be on the team will be accommodated.

 

With new found respect for Levy, after this loss the team came together and went on an 8 game winning streak and finished the season 13-3 while getting to their first super bowl. 

 

 

[Buffalo03]

On 7/5/2019 at 9:38 AM, Ethan in Portland said:

So many issues with this list. No way should Wilson or Warner be in top 25. Warner did not deserve HOF. Young is a top 10 QB. I put Kelly somewhere in 15-20 range.  

I must admit I find it hard to include players like Graham, Baugh, and Luckman. The game was so different then. I just think the QB play in NFL pre Unitus should be in a separate category. 

You don't think that Warner deserved to be in the HOF? He went to 3 Super Bowls with 2 teams that were trash before he took over. The Rams weren't squat before he took over as starter and he lead them to 2 Super Bowls as part of one of the greatest offenses in Super Bowl history. Granted Marshall Faulk was part of that offense to but that offense was very potent. The Rams had Tony Banks as their starter in 98. Had Warner not taken over in 99 you would be crazy to think Tony Banks even with Faulk and Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt would have done anything. Sure, Warner had a few years there where his play fell off and the team around him.fell apart and he had fumbling problems but then he comes to Arizona and leads them to the only Super Bowl in franchise history after years and years of irrelevance. Sure, he had Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin but what exactly did Matt Leinart do with those same group of receivers? Nothing. To say he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF is crazy

[C.Biscuit97]

On 7/9/2019 at 12:39 PM, dave mcbride said:

The thing about Kelly is that he had a couple of pretty spectacular seasons in the USFL. The USFL wasn't the NFL, obviously, but it had a ton of talent. Over the course of two seasons, he passed for 9,842 yards, 83 TDs, 45 INTs, and a 98.0 rating. I doubt he would have put up those numbers in the NFL, but in terms of physical talent, those were a couple of his peak seasons, and he probably would have been at least pretty good. In his final playoff game in that league, the Gamblers lost 22-20 to the Birmingham Stallions, which featured none other than Joe Cribbs, who ran for 1,467 yards that season (and 70 yards on 16 carries in the playoff game). 

That also helped his nfl transition too.  Imagine if rookie QBs got to play 2 seasons in a league other than the nfl before they played in the nfl.  I bet a lot more qbs that failed would have had much more success.

On 7/11/2019 at 10:14 AM, Nihilarian said:

What that article doesn't mention is that the "bickering Bills" of 1989 sour attitude continued until week two of the 1990 season.

 

In a 30-7 week two blowout loss to the Dolphins HC Marv Levy had benched some star players late in the game and they didn't take it well at all. Most notably CB Nate Odems, Bruce Smith who after they found out that they were benched went over to the sidelines and knocked over the gatorade table, started loudly complaining like little kids.

 

This loss stung a lot of Bills players as they kept complaining in the locker room after the game. This whole thing upset both the HC and owner. The media made a big deal about the players attitudes and it caused the owner Mr Ralph Wilson to speak out and issue a warning to any Bills player who doesn't want to play for Marv Levy or be on the team will be accommodated.

 

With new found respect for Levy, after this loss the team came together and went on an 8 game winning streak and finished the season 13-3 while getting to their first super bowl. 

 

 

Good post.  I was super young but I had a book called Relentless, which is an amazing collection of every Bills season for like 30 years or something.  

 

Kelly has matured and become a great representative of the Bills.  But with all due respect, he was a Richard for a lot of his Bills career.  A qb deserves a ton of blame when he causes team dysfunction.  Also, Kelly could have been more of a positive leader during the SB but he sounds like the main one who was leading the partying.  Then he played awful in those games.  

[C.Biscuit97]

On 7/11/2019 at 10:13 AM, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

So, you give the team around Kelly all the credit for the wins? Using that kind of cherry picking logic, let's extrapolate Kelly's rating to match up with Bills playoff wins only. His rating for those playoff games where the Bills won (9 of them) is 84.4, better than Elway & Marino's cumulative playoff ratings over the same period (79, 77 respectively) 

 

Further, over the course of their complete NFL careers, Kelly also has the same 84.4 rating, Elway's is 79.9, and Marino's is 86.4. All of these numbers are available on   https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/. 

 

I readily admit I have a bias towards Kelly, but it is what it is. He's a first ballot HOFer, deservedly so, and you can never bifurcate the achievements of the Bills during their run between Kelly and everyone else on the roster. They are inextricably intertwined. He was the cog that made the wheel go, and directed the offensive playcalling himself at the line--so if Thurman rips off a big run because the defensive alignment that Kelly recognized put Thum in position to make plays for example, then you have to give Kelly extra credit there as well, not some bean counter in the press box calling plays from that ivory tower. I won't ever take anything away from Marino or Elway, but to say that Kelly is heads and shoulders beneath them in quality, is simply not backed up by the evidence. 

 

I mean we’re nitpicking here. Kelly is a HOFer and a very good QB.  Marino and Elway are HOFers and IMO, all time great qbs.  

 

I think the Bills has way more talent than the Fins and Broncos.  I think Elway and Marino had to carry their teams more and are better overall qbs than Kelly.  It’s like a model isn’t as hot as a super model.  But I would suspect if you asked non Bills fans, they would overwhelmingly agree with me. JMO obviously.

[LSHMEAB]

On 7/10/2019 at 4:38 AM, Niagara Bill said:

 

Wilson before Rivers...no way possible.

 

 

No way POSSIBLE? I can see the argument for Rivers, but it's a perfectly valid position. I'd rank Wilson ahead of Rivers.

[Kirby Jackson]

On 7/5/2019 at 8:17 AM, thebandit27 said:

I think that's a bit low for Kelly.  I've become accustomed to calling him a top-15 QB.

 

But so much of it is subjective.

 

I think there's an unquestioned top 4 of (in no particular order) Unitas, Montana, Brady, Manning.  After that there's a HUGE chasm before you get to the next tier of 10-12 that includes, IMO: Elway, Marino, Kelly, Aikman, Favre, Brees, and Graham.  I can see an argument for Bradshaw based upon Super Bowl wins, so throw him in there as well.  Same goes for Big Ben.  I think recency-bias is weighing too much when I see names like Rodgers, Wilson, and Warner in there, but if you add those dudes in there, then there's your group of 12.

 

So I suppose I'd say there's a top-4, a top-16, and after that it's highly debatable.

I always bang the table for Brees being in the top tier. He will be the all-time leader in yardage, completions, completion % & TDs with at least 1 Super Bowl. He has the 2nd most attempts in history AND has the highest completion % ever. That’s crazy efficiency!! If they throw the flag last year, I think he has another ring. There is no way that BB would have dismantled Brees & Payton like he did Goff & McVay. To me, Brees is the same guy as Peyton with lesser weapons. 

[Bing Bong]

On 7/5/2019 at 8:17 AM, thebandit27 said:

I think that's a bit low for Kelly.  I've become accustomed to calling him a top-15 QB.

 

But so much of it is subjective.

 

I think there's an unquestioned top 4 of (in no particular order) Unitas, Montana, Brady, Manning.  After that there's a HUGE chasm before you get to the next tier of 10-12 that includes, IMO: Elway, Marino, Kelly, Aikman, Favre, Brees, and Graham.  I can see an argument for Bradshaw based upon Super Bowl wins, so throw him in there as well.  Same goes for Big Ben.  I think recency-bias is weighing too much when I see names like Rodgers, Wilson, and Warner in there, but if you add those dudes in there, then there's your group of 12.

 

So I suppose I'd say there's a top-4, a top-16, and after that it's highly debatable.

Yeah I don't value rings quite as much as this list does. I'm not even sure about Aikman with his pedestrian numbers and vast talent surrounding him. Always think Aikman gets rated too highly in every list but some vouch for his passing talent and I know Emmitt Smith certainly took a lot of the passing load he could have had for more gaudy stats.

Edited July 15, 2019 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[thebandit27]

On 7/13/2019 at 7:43 AM, Kirby Jackson said:

I always bang the table for Brees being in the top tier. He will be the all-time leader in yardage, completions, completion % & TDs with at least 1 Super Bowl. He has the 2nd most attempts in history AND has the highest completion % ever. That’s crazy efficiency!! If they throw the flag last year, I think he has another ring. There is no way that BB would have dismantled Brees & Payton like he did Goff & McVay. To me, Brees is the same guy as Peyton with lesser weapons. 

 

Yeah, I teeter on the edge with Brees.  I think he's an incredibly good passer; maybe the best pure passer in the mid-range ever to play.

 

42 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Yeah I don't value rings quite as much as this list does. I'm not even sure about Aikman with his pedestrian numbers and vast talent surrounding him. Always think Aikman gets rated too highly in every list but some vouch for his passing talent and I know Emmitt Smith certainly took a lot of the passing load he could have had for more gaudy stats.

 

That's probably fair.  Aikman and Bradshaw, to me, are the guys that seem to be "propped" into the top 16 by the greatness of their respective teams.

[BADOLBILZ]

On 7/13/2019 at 7:43 AM, Kirby Jackson said:

I always bang the table for Brees being in the top tier. He will be the all-time leader in yardage, completions, completion % & TDs with at least 1 Super Bowl. He has the 2nd most attempts in history AND has the highest completion % ever. That’s crazy efficiency!! If they throw the flag last year, I think he has another ring. There is no way that BB would have dismantled Brees & Payton like he did Goff & McVay. To me, Brees is the same guy as Peyton with lesser weapons. 

 

 

No doubt Brees should be one of the top tier.   His numbers and durability speak for themselves.   But Brees couldn't get past the Rams at home so there is no way he beats the Patriots in that SB, IMO.   They were very fortunate to get past the Eagles at home even.   Lotta' hype over one bad call on a bad pass decision that any good DB should take to the house for a game sealing pick 6 for the Rams.   That probably should have been the ultimate Brees choke highlight......like when Manning threw the pick 6 at the end of the Colts/Saints SB.    But instead NRC took him off the hook and put the onus on the officiating.   The Saints played well below expectation in the playoffs.........I'd say choked even........so it's a massive stretch of hindsight to think they would have somehow woken up and played their best against Belichick.    The SB sucked but the two teams that were playing the best made it. 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Yeah, I teeter on the edge with Brees.  I think he's an incredibly good passer; maybe the best pure passer in the mid-range ever to play.

 

 

That's probably fair.  Aikman and Bradshaw, to me, are the guys that seem to be "propped" into the top 16 by the greatness of their respective teams.

I’ve had this argument with a buddy down here that’s a diehard Steelers fan. 3 years ago he would argue that Brees didn’t belong in the top 10. We would go at. He’s changed his tune recently and has him in that top grouping. As weird as it sounds, I think Brees is crazy underrated. If he gets another ring that will really put him in elite company. 

 

He’s also done it with lesser weapons. Guys like Lance Moore, Kenny Stills, even Colston were not great players. Peyton has Harrison, Clark, Wayne, Gonzalez, Stokley, Demaryius, Sanders, Edge, Addis, etc... I think that Thomas is the 1st WR that ever went to the Pro Bowl with Brees (obviously Graham did). He’s just a surgeon.