WR techniques... is it really science?

[MakeBuffaloGreatAgain]

I was thinking about watching videos of Sammy Watkins with our Bills, and I remembered our WR coach teaching him to run low(hunched down) so DBs won't know when he is breaking his routes. All I could think of was that Sammy's greatest attribute was his speed, so by making him run unnatural was very stupid. We basically eliminated his advantage. Now I see videos of WRs being told to take at least 4 small steps to make an out cut. When a WR makes 4 steps to cut, then the DB is able to gather his feet and make extra steps to break on the route also. I have seen plenty of WRs make a fast/crisp out cut with one plant step. I would have had wet dreams as a DB in college knowing the WRs would take 4 small steps before a route break! All I needed was a small delay to make a break and jump a route, and these 4 small steps that are taught would be a good corners dream come true.

 

Which Brings me to my next complaint... Speed outs. It is designed so WRs can get to an out route as fast as possible, but because of the bowed trajectory, they end up curving into the DBs path. A lazy route is when there are no sharp cuts, and the DB can close ground fairly easy because the WR wandered into the DBs territory. As a DB, your momentum is moving backwards in your backpedal, and you have to react when a WR cuts/breaks. No matter what, you have to fight your inertia to start moving the other direction. But when a WR rounds a cut and allows you to move your centrifugal force to the side as opposed to forward, it becomes so much easier to change directions and break on a ball. This is where I think the PATs have really excelled(god I hate them). Their route runners don't bow routes or take 4-6 steps to make a cut. They use precise one step moves with head and shoulder(not shampoo) fakes. I think someone tried to out think their predecessors and tried to find a better way to make a field cut, and ended up with a good hypotheses that doesn't work in the real world.

 

Anyways, this rant is mainly for playing against man-to-man teams. Against Zone teams, all that matters is getting to the open zone at the right time, so run like a duck if you want.

[Malazan]

You're reading way too much into things that you've heard somewhere.

[White Linen]

It's something that can be worked on to get better at.  It's a game of cat and mouse if you will with WR's and DB's.  That's why you have to work on your position endlessly and be able to read the defender to know what to do.  Very similar to offensive tackles and DE's.  I see guys use a swim or spin move and they don't know it's the wrong move based on what the offensive lineman are doing or the situation.  The swim move and spin move are easily defended if the DE hasn't perfected it, set it up or knows when to use it.  Same thing with WR's.  They just have to get better. 

[Foxx]

31 minutes ago, MakeBuffaloGreatAgain said:

... run like a duck if you want.

i see you've seen me run.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

14 minutes ago, White Linen said:

It's something that can be worked on to get better at.  It's a game of cat and mouse if you will with WR's and DB's.  That's why you have to work on your position endlessly and be able to read the defender to know what to do.  Very similar to offensive tackles and DE's.  I see guys use a swim or spin move and they don't know it's the wrong move based on what the offensive lineman are doing or the situation.  The swim move and spin move are easily defended if the DE hasn't perfected it, set it up or knows when to use it.  Same thing with WR's.  They just have to get better. 

 

...nice assessment "WL".......endlessly work to hone multiple techniques so that you can keep the defense guessing as to what's coming.....

[NewEra]

So you’re saying Zay Jones is going to get cut?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

So you’re saying Zay Jones is going to get cut?

 

...OR...maybe Benjabum can be reincarnated?............

[Mikie2times]

If you played at any level you know it boils down to deception. Void of deception it boils down to timing. I doubt anything less is being taught at the highest level. Obviously past the training god given ability, fast twitch muscles, etc.   

[Ol Dirty B]

I think they use 4 small steps because you can get a variation of routes out of those 4 steps. Otherwise every out would be jumped on, with shorter quicker steps, the route runner retains the ability to cut in any direction as well as explode out of it.

 

A cut on one foot can be crisp and quick, but I believe commits the receiver. You can't cut off you're right foot then come back left quickly off longer strides. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Ol Dirty B

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

9 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

I think they use 4 small steps because you can get a variation of routes out of those 4 steps. Otherwise every out would be jumped on, with shorter quicker steps, the route runner retains the ability to cut in any direction as well as explode out of it.

 

A cut on one foot can be crisp and quick, but I believe commits the receiver. You can't cut off you're right foot then come back left quickly off longer strides. 

 

I'm no expert, but it seems to me like if you cut off your right foot the only place you'll be going quickly is the emergency room, and not under your own power.  Maybe Zay misunderstood his coach's instructions when he encountered that high rise window in Vegas.

[JoPar_v2]

depends on the purpose behind the extra steps - if they’re because the WR is out of control at the top of his route and needs them to gather his body - that’s bad (see DK Metcalf). If they are used to mask the route and fake out the DB - obviously good. Watch Stevie Johnson. One of the most underrated route runners ever. Unorthodox as f*** but got the job done. His hands let him down; he could have been great.

[Aireskoi]

On 5/31/2019 at 4:40 PM, MakeBuffaloGreatAgain said:

...Now I see videos of WRs being told to take at least 4 small steps to make an out cut. When a WR makes 4 steps to cut, then the DB is able to gather his feet and make extra steps to break on the route also. I have seen plenty of WRs make a fast/crisp out cut with one plant step. I would have had wet dreams as a DB in college knowing the WRs would take 4 small steps before a route break! All I needed was a small delay to make a break and jump a route, and these 4 small steps that are taught would be a good corners dream come true.

 

Which Brings me to my next complaint... Speed outs. It is designed so WRs can get to an out route as fast as possible, but because of the bowed trajectory, they end up curving into the DBs path. A lazy route is when there are no sharp cuts, and the DB can close ground fairly easy because the WR wandered into the DBs territory. As a DB, your momentum is moving backwards in your backpedal, and you have to react when a WR cuts/breaks. No matter what, you have to fight your inertia to start moving the other direction. But when a WR rounds a cut and allows you to move your centrifugal force to the side as opposed to forward, it becomes so much easier to change directions and break on a ball. This is where I think the PATs have really excelled(god I hate them). Their route runners don't bow routes or take 4-6 steps to make a cut. They use precise one step moves with head and shoulder(not shampoo) fakes. I think someone tried to out think their predecessors and tried to find a better way to make a field cut, and ended up with a good hypotheses that doesn't work in the real world.

 

Anyways, this rant is mainly for playing against man-to-man teams. Against Zone teams, all that matters is getting to the open zone at the right time, so run like a duck if you want.

 

Love the thread, but I think this will take some videos and pics to make it great.  Got any examples we can check out?

 

It's about match-ups week to week and play to play.  I think a player needs to develop all the moves he can handle.  You have to study your opponent and see what works against them, but then you have to execute the different tech's.  Does an extra stutter step tie them up, or do they get picks when guys try?  There's such  variety of experience, size, and speed you'll face week to week.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Aireskoi

[Buffalo Boy]

     Hopefully they teach the science of catching the ball with your hands and continuing to hold it until the whistle blows.

Especially in the End zone.

     If we could perfect that one skill at the WR and TE positions , I feel that might make a difference?

 

[Shaw66]

This is all fun and games, but the professionals know what they're doing.  They know what routes make sense, the shape of the routes, the number of steps, all of that. Its studies in more detail than any of us has studied it.  

 

For example, what the OP says about zones is obviously wrong.  It matters a great deal what the route looks like when playing against a zone, because every defender in the zone is watching the receivers and reacting to where the receivers are going.  One receiver's movements causes the zone to shift a step or two that creates the crease another receiver takes advantage of.  

 

Coaches know the best ways to get into and out of cuts, and fans rarely know better. 

[Cripple Creek]

On 5/31/2019 at 4:40 PM, MakeBuffaloGreatAgain said:

I was thinking about watching videos of Sammy Watkins with our Bills, and I remembered our WR coach teaching him to run low(hunched down) so DBs won't know when he is breaking his routes. All I could think of was that Sammy's greatest attribute was his speed, so by making him run unnatural was very stupid. We basically eliminated his advantage. Now I see videos of WRs being told to take at least 4 small steps to make an out cut. When a WR makes 4 steps to cut, then the DB is able to gather his feet and make extra steps to break on the route also. I have seen plenty of WRs make a fast/crisp out cut with one plant step. I would have had wet dreams as a DB in college knowing the WRs would take 4 small steps before a route break! All I needed was a small delay to make a break and jump a route, and these 4 small steps that are taught would be a good corners dream come true.

 

Which Brings me to my next complaint... Speed outs. It is designed so WRs can get to an out route as fast as possible, but because of the bowed trajectory, they end up curving into the DBs path. A lazy route is when there are no sharp cuts, and the DB can close ground fairly easy because the WR wandered into the DBs territory. As a DB, your momentum is moving backwards in your backpedal, and you have to react when a WR cuts/breaks. No matter what, you have to fight your inertia to start moving the other direction. But when a WR rounds a cut and allows you to move your centrifugal force to the side as opposed to forward, it becomes so much easier to change directions and break on a ball. This is where I think the PATs have really excelled(god I hate them). Their route runners don't bow routes or take 4-6 steps to make a cut. They use precise one step moves with head and shoulder(not shampoo) fakes. I think someone tried to out think their predecessors and tried to find a better way to make a field cut, and ended up with a good hypotheses that doesn't work in the real world.

 

Anyways, this rant is mainly for playing against man-to-man teams. Against Zone teams, all that matters is getting to the open zone at the right time, so run like a duck if you want.

Well, judging WR talent is really a science, IMHO.  One of the best who frequents here is @BringBackFergy who eats/sleeps/breathes WR.  He can tell you everything you need to know about a prospect, and he starts early, traveling the peewee circuit.  If you have specific questions he welcomes PMs.

[BringBackFergy]

8 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Well, judging WR talent is really a science, IMHO.  One of the best who frequents here is @BringBackFergy who eats/sleeps/breathes WR.  He can tell you everything you need to know about a prospect, and he starts early, traveling the peewee circuit.  If you have specific questions he welcomes PMs.

Thanks for the shout out. My days of playing the WR position are behind me (yes, I had a short three year stint with the London Monarchs and the Toronto Args back in the 90’s) but I still travel to various locations for private workouts and scouting. 

 

One attribute the OP didn’t touch upon is what we (scouts/coaches) refer to as “breakout inertia ratio” or focused speed vs controlled limb coordination. Arms and legs need to move with flexibility but also with a rigid strength that allows inertia to break past the secondary. The longer the limb when compared to shorter CB’s and faster limb extension will permit greater completions of 50/50 balls. That’s why we usually don’t just measure a WR’s fingers and hands but his toes as well. Having longer toes allows the WR candidate to grip the turf better for sharper cuts thus increasing his breakout inertia ratio and limb coordination. I’ll revisit this thread later but feel free to ask questions anytime. 

[SoCal Deek]

Or...we could just line up with two WRs stacked right behind one another and have the guy in back break off his route rubbing off the guy in front....but NO! That would be way too easy and look way too much like what Tom Brady’s been living off of for the last ten years!!

[Thurman#1]

Without seeing the story you are specifically talking about, this can't really be discussed.

 

I googled "four small steps out cut" and got nothing to do with sports. Then I added "football" and got a lot of soccer stuff. What specifically did they say? Where did you see it? We need to see the exact words to know what you're really referring to here.

 

Generally, though, yeah, route running is immensely technical and guys who are really good at it gain a real advantage over DBs.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Thurman#1

[mrags]

I just want to point out Stevie Johnson and why he was so good. I also wanted to comment that the majority of you here in this thread threw him away like a piece of garbage all because Boo-Boo, Kitty-foot Watkins. Stevie was such a good WR and you’re all stupid. 

[K-9]

My advice is to pay attention to the game within the game between WRs and CBs. Technique is all well and good, indeed it's essential, but these guys throw much of that out of the window during a game. Especially as they get to know each other over the years. 

[MJS]

I don't think they take the small steps for every route. There's definitely times where they just make one quick cut. If you are selling a go route, though, you need those steps to change your momentum without giving away which direction you are going to cut.

 

So yeah, I think it is just a tool in the tool box. Not a rule that they use each and every time on every single route. Like others have mentioned, receivers need to change things up and deceive the defender. If DB's start jumping routes when they see those quick steps, that's an easy time to blow past them after faking a cut with those steps, or breaking in a different direction for an easy completion.

1 hour ago, mrags said:

I just want to point out Stevie Johnson and why he was so good. I also wanted to comment that the majority of you here in this thread threw him away like a piece of garbage all because Boo-Boo, Kitty-foot Watkins. Stevie was such a good WR and you’re all stupid. 

That's why Stevie did nothing after leaving Buffalo? He's incredibly overrated. He's a decent WR who overachieved. His success can mostly be attributed to the good relationship between him and Fitz.

 

He also had drops in critical moments.

 

Watkins did not work out either, but that doesn't mean Stevie Johnson should have stayed. Only Fitz could throw to him.

[YattaOkasan]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Without seeing the story you are specifically talking about, this can't really be discussed.

 

I googled "four small steps out cut" and got nothing to do with sports. Then I added "football" and got a lot of soccer stuff. What specifically did they say? Where did you see it? We need to see the exact words to know what you're really referring to here.

 

Generally, though, yeah, route running is immensely technical and guys who are really good at it gain a real advantage over DBs.

I know there was a cover 1 video or two (one was foster I think) that referenced the quick 4 steps. Those guys are usually on point so I’m gonna defer to them. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

..I'd venture it's more of an art form versus science as far as having more "tricks in your bag" to defeat the opposing DB and/or keep him on his "guessing heels".....perhaps winning the "mind games battle" is a better description......make 'em fear what they are facing...........

[StHustle]

On 5/31/2019 at 5:04 PM, jeremy2020 said:

You're reading way too much into things that you've heard somewhere.

 

Is that your reply to everything you don't understand?

[Buffalophil1948]

The 4 steps also gives you a split second to see how the DB is going to react. Then make the right choice of direction to get open

[mrags]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

I don't think they take the small steps for every route. There's definitely times where they just make one quick cut. If you are selling a go route, though, you need those steps to change your momentum without giving away which direction you are going to cut.

 

So yeah, I think it is just a tool in the tool box. Not a rule that they use each and every time on every single route. Like others have mentioned, receivers need to change things up and deceive the defender. If DB's start jumping routes when they see those quick steps, that's an easy time to blow past them after faking a cut with those steps, or breaking in a different direction for an easy completion.

That's why Stevie did nothing after leaving Buffalo? He's incredibly overrated. He's a decent WR who overachieved. His success can mostly be attributed to the good relationship between him and Fitz.

 

He also had drops in critical moments.

 

Watkins did not work out either, but that doesn't mean Stevie Johnson should have stayed. Only Fitz could throw to him.

Only Bill to have 3 straight 1,000 yard seasons. I’m sure his team mates and Darrell Revis would disagree with you. But every clueless person on the internet has their own opinion. So enjoy. 

[MJS]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

Only Bill to have 3 straight 1,000 yard seasons. I’m sure his team mates and Darrell Revis would disagree with you. But every clueless person on the internet has their own opinion. So enjoy. 

Yep, which puts him in average WR territory.

 

He'll go down as a forgotten WR. I'm not saying he sucked. He was just average.

[K-9]

5 hours ago, MJS said:

I don't think they take the small steps for every route. There's definitely times where they just make one quick cut. If you are selling a go route, though, you need those steps to change your momentum without giving away which direction you are going to cut.

 

So yeah, I think it is just a tool in the tool box. Not a rule that they use each and every time on every single route. Like others have mentioned, receivers need to change things up and deceive the defender. If DB's start jumping routes when they see those quick steps, that's an easy time to blow past them after faking a cut with those steps, or breaking in a different direction for an easy completion.

That's why Stevie did nothing after leaving Buffalo? He's incredibly overrated. He's a decent WR who overachieved. His success can mostly be attributed to the good relationship between him and Fitz.

 

He also had drops in critical moments.

 

Watkins did not work out either, but that doesn't mean Stevie Johnson should have stayed. Only Fitz could throw to him.

There is a lot of truth to this statement. Stevie, being the unconventional route runner that he was (or as Gailey put it, "just do whatever that thing is you do"), had a unique chemistry with Fitz. Much of the time it worked, much of the time it didn't. Stevie's penchant for stutter stepping off the LOS would just ruin timing routes, but it also made it difficult for CBs to time him as well. And Fitz, with that HUGE windup, wasn't a slave to timing patterns, either. But it worked for them. Except when Fitz tried triple hitching a long out and then it was a disaster. But that's a different subject. 

[Rochesterfan]

On 5/31/2019 at 4:40 PM, MakeBuffaloGreatAgain said:

I was thinking about watching videos of Sammy Watkins with our Bills, and I remembered our WR coach teaching him to run low(hunched down) so DBs won't know when he is breaking his routes. All I could think of was that Sammy's greatest attribute was his speed, so by making him run unnatural was very stupid. We basically eliminated his advantage. Now I see videos of WRs being told to take at least 4 small steps to make an out cut. When a WR makes 4 steps to cut, then the DB is able to gather his feet and make extra steps to break on the route also. I have seen plenty of WRs make a fast/crisp out cut with one plant step. I would have had wet dreams as a DB in college knowing the WRs would take 4 small steps before a route break! All I needed was a small delay to make a break and jump a route, and these 4 small steps that are taught would be a good corners dream come true.

 

Which Brings me to my next complaint... Speed outs. It is designed so WRs can get to an out route as fast as possible, but because of the bowed trajectory, they end up curving into the DBs path. A lazy route is when there are no sharp cuts, and the DB can close ground fairly easy because the WR wandered into the DBs territory. As a DB, your momentum is moving backwards in your backpedal, and you have to react when a WR cuts/breaks. No matter what, you have to fight your inertia to start moving the other direction. But when a WR rounds a cut and allows you to move your centrifugal force to the side as opposed to forward, it becomes so much easier to change directions and break on a ball. This is where I think the PATs have really excelled(god I hate them). Their route runners don't bow routes or take 4-6 steps to make a cut. They use precise one step moves with head and shoulder(not shampoo) fakes. I think someone tried to out think their predecessors and tried to find a better way to make a field cut, and ended up with a good hypotheses that doesn't work in the real world.

 

Anyways, this rant is mainly for playing against man-to-man teams. Against Zone teams, all that matters is getting to the open zone at the right time, so run like a duck if you want.

 

 

I disagree with your initial interpretation because the Bills will be running a bunch of option routes with certain receivers and the four step allow you to break down your momentum and cut in either direction based upon the reaction of the DB.  This includes routes where if the DB breaks down and tries to jump a route - you can accelerate past them.

 

Cover 1 and the Media has also shown videos where the guys are making 1 cut quick out and in breaking routes.

 

I especially disagree with your assessment of the Pats - their slot guys are always using these 4 step cuts when running an option route - where do you think Daboll picked it up.  

 

I think you will see a lot of different techniques that these guys are being taught for specific routes just to get a reaction from the DBs.  It is critical that they perform the techniques well to allow proper timing with the QB.  The 4 step cuts - especially in the slot also are useful to allow the outside WR to pull his DB deeper to help ensure an open area to cut into.

 

I think it may be a corners dream in HS, but playing a good WR and a well coached team - you would jump the route once and they would then burn you the rest of the game.  The point of that break is to allow the WR to go left or right and up or downfield totally depending upon the play and movement of the DB - which is why these guys are talking so much about body position and what they are seeing to get on the same page.