Is it starting to become a little more clear why the rebiuld?

[John from Riverside]

Marcel - not worth the money...lazy...is not improving the jags defense (you could make a case that he is hurting it for the amount he is getting paid but is not a team leader)

 

Sammy - foot is hurt again....not living up to the draft status and cost on 3rd team has played with two different very good QBs.

 

These are the players that we would have given contracts to if we did not trade them away for draft picks....our cap space would be nil.....and we would be right where we were.

 

This is why they were let go...this is why we rebiult...this is why Beane and McD did what they did.

 

Is it becoming more clear?

 

Its not all perfect.....I wanted to keep Woods but he didnt want to stay.....Gilmore is still a good player with the patriots.....

[RoyBatty is alive]

Sammy and Marcel would have never fit it to the alleged process, guys that really wanted to be hear, work hard, sacrifice.

[Warcodered]

It really all depends on how things go next year. What they do with the cap space and draft picks they've gotten doing this. Putting themselves might make a lot of sense and been the best move but if they don't execute on the last steps the whole thing will be judged on the final results.

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Marcel - not worth the money...lazy...is not improving the jags defense (you could make a case that he is hurting it for the amount he is getting paid but is not a team leader)

 

Sammy - foot is hurt again....not living up to the draft status and cost on 3rd team has played with two different very good QBs.

 

These are the players that we would have given contracts to if we did not trade them away for draft picks....our cap space would be nil.....and we would be right where we were.

 

This is why they were let go...this is why we rebiult...this is why Beane and McD did what they did.

 

Is it becoming more clear?

 

Its not all perfect.....I wanted to keep Woods but he didnt want to stay.....Gilmore is still a good player with the patriots.....

 

Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M.

 

I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash.

 

In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M.

 

I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash.

 

In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen.

they traded Marcel's lazyness for a DT that is not as talented.....but also shows up to work every week.....and our run defense is actually good.

 

We dont know if they would not have picked up Benjamin...that is total guess

 

A second round pick is not a small thing.

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M.

 

I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash.

 

In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen.

Correct.

[Happy]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Gilmore is still a good player with the patriots.....

 

But is he worth the 5 year/$65 M contract he signed?  His play in Buffalo was inconsistent with some good play and other times where his ball presence was poor and generated some dumb penalties.  Granted, he seemed to shape up a bit in NE.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

But is he worth the 5 year/$65 M contract he signed?  His play in Buffalo was inconsistent with some good play and other times where his ball presence was poor and generated some dumb penalties.  Granted, he seemed to shape up a bit in NE.

No I dont think he is worth that contract.

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

But is he worth the 5 year/$65 M contract he signed?  His play in Buffalo was inconsistent with some good play and other times where his ball presence was poor and generated some dumb penalties.  Granted, he seemed to shape up a bit in NE.

 

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

No I dont think he is worth that contract.

 

 

Hard to argue he isn’t.

 

https://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/21/pff-stephon-gilmore-is-4th-best-cornerback-in-nfl/

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

they traded Marcel's lazyness for a DT that is not as talented.....but also shows up to work every week.....and our run defense is actually good.

 

We dont know if they would not have picked up Benjamin...that is total guess

 

A second round pick is not a small thing.

 

Well John, you made the statement that the team would have zero cap space had they not dealt those guys.  It's not true...the effect on cap space would be minimal.

 

And yes, we can almost definitively say that there's no way they'd have traded a 3rd round pick in a year that they were trying to accumulate draft capitol for Benjamin if they had Watkins on an identical contract.

 

The big difference is that the team would've been forced to trade a 2019 pick to get Allen instead of a 2018 2nd.

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

 

Hard to argue he isn’t.

 

https://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/21/pff-stephon-gilmore-is-4th-best-cornerback-in-nfl/

 

Yes,  he's well worth the contract, which is what many of us said at the time.

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

 

Hard to argue he isn’t.

 

https://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/21/pff-stephon-gilmore-is-4th-best-cornerback-in-nfl/

 

Yes, but like I mentioned, Gilmore has performed much better in NE.  With how he played in Buffalo, the Bills would have been crazy to give Stephon the money he got.  Anyway, water under the bridge and I'm happy with Tre White who I think is a better CB than Gilmore.

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

 

Hard to argue he isn’t.

 

https://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/21/pff-stephon-gilmore-is-4th-best-cornerback-in-nfl/

I think the answer is "he is worth that contract in New England"

'

because in that last year before he got that contract he was in "playing not to get hurt" mode.........and we actually dont even know if we could have kept him.

[Misterbluesky]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Marcel - not worth the money...lazy...is not improving the jags defense (you could make a case that he is hurting it for the amount he is getting paid but is not a team leader)

 

Sammy - foot is hurt again....not living up to the draft status and cost on 3rd team has played with two different very good QBs.

 

These are the players that we would have given contracts to if we did not trade them away for draft picks....our cap space would be nil.....and we would be right where we were.

 

This is why they were let go...this is why we rebiult...this is why Beane and McD did what they did.

 

Is it becoming more clear?

 

Its not all perfect.....I wanted to keep Woods but he didnt want to stay.....Gilmore is still a good player with the patriots.....

Straight up...I would rather have Jordan Phillips on our roster than I would Dareus.Sure,Phillips is a hothead and last week's 15 yarder was costly ...but he shows up to play every damn week,not to mention he's a factor out there when his number comes up. Marcel has had a rough private life and I think he became soft because of that...he expects to be cuddled and catered too...I doubt he has many NFL days left in him...jmo.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

A second round pick is not a small thing.

 

You wouldn’t swap a late second and Benjamin for a 3rd and Watkins?!

[thebandit27]

7 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Yes, but like I mentioned, Gilmore has performed much better in NE.  With how he played in Buffalo, the Bills would have been crazy to give Stephon the money he got.  Anyway, water under the bridge and I'm happy with Tre White who I think is a better CB than Gilmore.

 

He was excellent here.

 

He had 2 bad games in a contract year, and that's what many fans chose to fixate on...in general, the relatively low opinions of Gilmore on this board result from unrealistic expectations of cornerbacks.  In Gilmore's "bad contract year", he allowed a grand total of 2 TDs, and performed statistically better than both Richard Sherman and Patrick Peterson.

 

Now, that said, I like Tre White a lot.  He's a different style player than Gilmore, but might be just as good overall, as he's better against the run and may have better ball skills.

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

You wouldn’t swap a late second and Benjamin for a 3rd and Watkins?!

We would have ended up giving Watkins a new contract and had the same issues.....we are done and away from KB after this year.

[thebandit27]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

We would have ended up giving Watkins a new contract and had the same issues.....we are done and away from KB after this year.

 

Nope...had they picked up Sammy's 5th-year option, he'd be on this team right now at the exact same cap hit as Benjamin.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Nope...had they picked up Sammy's 5th-year option, he'd be on this team right now at the exact same cap hit as Benjamin.

And we would be worrying about his foot after every tackle.....do you remember those times?

[Magox]

It's becoming increasingly clear that trading away Dareus and Watkins were moves that made A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE for the Bills.

 

Watkins is not worth $17 million a year let alone for the Bills.   Dareus is one strike away from being suspended/expelled from the league and has shown that he will never be the player that he once was.  Star was brought on to clog up running lanes and free up the LB's and that is precisely what he has done.  Did we overpay to get him?  Yes, probably by a couple million a year but the Bills desperately needed a CONSISTENT run plugger and without doubt he has brought stability to our interior Run D.   

 

Not to mention that Sammy and Dareus did not fit into the mental sort of makeup that they wanted and say what you will, McD/Beane have a clear vision of what they want and I'm completely onboard with what they are doing.

[Happy]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

He had 2 bad games in a contract year, and that's what many fans chose to fixate on...in general, the relatively low opinions of Gilmore on this board result from unrealistic expectations of cornerbacks.  In Gilmore's "bad contract year", he allowed a grand total of 2 TDs, and performed statistically better than both Richard Sherman and Patrick Peterson.

 

Maybe the statistics indicate this and maybe he only allowed 2 TDs.  But how many TDs did the Bills D give up where Gilmore's play set up the opposing offense inside, or very near, the red zone?  My recollection of Gilmore is that he tended to have poor ball skills which caused him to draw PI penalties down field on longer pass plays, which he'd blame the other DBs on some occasions.  Coupled with the fact that Gilmore had problems tackling a runner in open field.  IMO, he's not quite as good as you're giving him credit for.

[HOUSE]

Coaching changes are the main reason for dumping players. Every coach has a different approach to winning.

 

If the Bills can stabilize, there will be less turnover

 

Every time I see a thread about dumping McD it gives me Lupas

[thebandit27]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

And we would be worrying about his foot after every tackle.....do you remember those times?

 

 I wasn't really worried about his foot after every tackle, but that's besides the point.

 

John, the team is currently without the player that the traded a 3rd round pick for in order to replace Watkins.  Had they simply picked up his 5th year option, he'd be on this team right now with zero adverse impact on the cap...that was my point.

 

3 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Maybe the statistics indicate this and maybe he only allowed 2 TDs.  But how many TDs did the Bills D give up where Gilmore's play set up the opposing offense inside, or very near, the red zone?  My recollection of Gilmore is that he tended to have poor ball skills which caused him to draw PI penalties down field on longer pass plays, which he'd blame the other DBs on some occasions.  Coupled with the fact that Gilmore had problems tackling a runner in open field.  IMO, he's not quite as good as you're giving him credit for.

 

I drew up the numbers a ways back...

 

But either way, he's not here, and that was a decision that the team chose to make with a FA--far different than birds they had in the hand like John discussed in his OP.

[blacklabel]

A real, full-on rebuild had to happen at some point. So far, I think the Pegulas found the right guys to lead the rebuild. They aren't afraid to make tough decisions and they definitely have very clear expectations for their players and if those expectations aren't met, that player doesn't hang around for too long.

 

I was a big fan of Watkins. I mean, his college tape is electric, the guy has some serious skills but I think he's the kind of player that expected to be able to do in the NFL what he did at Clemson. He found out pretty quick that the NFL is a whole other level. I also think all the injuries he has dealt with have affected him. I don't think he plays as fast as he used to. He had the ribs in his rookie year, then a hip surgery, I think he had something up with his ankle and then the lingering condition with his foot, which is still affecting him. All of that makes me believe that Beane and his crew may have had word from the medical staff that his foot could always be a potential issue at any point in time. Hard to commit guaranteed money to a player with a condition like that. I'd also venture to guess that's why he only got a 3-year deal and not a more standard "big time" contract which is usually five years.

 

Dareus just needed a fresh start. I think the franchise really went out of their way to help him stay on track but at the end of the day, the guy just has too much baggage. 

 

I think people will start to see just why McBeane are so big on culture. Look at the Jags for instance. On paper they're an incredibly talented team but, there are a bunch of different personalities on that roster. That, and a ton of ego. Those guys never shut up. Wouldn't be surprised if they were still chirping even after the beatdown they took last night. So you have the ego guys, then there are the lack of effort guys (Dareus) and yeah, they have a couple of true professionals like Campbell and I think Bouye would fall into that category as well. Trying to get all those guys playing together as a unit and playing for each other is that much tougher when you have personality clashes and things like that. That's why McBeane sticks to a certain formula for the types of players they want here. They have to fit not only what they do on the field but how they are in the locker room and in the meeting rooms and all that. And yeah, you can make the point that the 90s Bills had a bunch of guys with huge egos but they found a way to play together despite the egos. Some teams can't get there.I really feel that the Bills won't be one of those teams. I think they'll have harmony from top to bottom and hopefully they can combine that with their talent and be long-term contenders and not "make the playoffs once every 17 years" contenders.

[RoyBatty is alive]

14 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Maybe the statistics indicate this and maybe he only allowed 2 TDs.  But how many TDs did the Bills D give up where Gilmore's play set up the opposing offense inside, or very near, the red zone?  My recollection of Gilmore is that he tended to have poor ball skills which caused him to draw PI penalties down field on longer pass plays, which he'd blame the other DBs on some occasions.  Coupled with the fact that Gilmore had problems tackling a runner in open field.  IMO, he's not quite as good as you're giving him credit for.

 

This, he definitely did do.  Gilmore is an excellent CB though, hate to say it, i saw a few key plays including an incredible int vs the Jets, and defended 3 passes, he was a major factor in that win.

[WhoTom]

54 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M.

 

I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash.

 

In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen.

 

That last one is a pretty big impact. You swing a few times - sometimes you miss and other times you hit a home run. The jury's still out on Josh, but it's looking like a good move so far.

 

[LSHMEAB]

42 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Yes, but like I mentioned, Gilmore has performed much better in NE.  With how he played in Buffalo, the Bills would have been crazy to give Stephon the money he got.  Anyway, water under the bridge and I'm happy with Tre White who I think is a better CB than Gilmore.

Has he really played that much better or did we not appreciate his talent?

 

Bills fans tend to piss on their own far too often, and I think many fans never got over the face he made when drafted.

 

I have no problem not paying Gilmore that money, but he was a better player in Buffalo than some want to admit.

[Happy]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

Has he really played that much better or did we not appreciate his talent?

 

Gilmore did play under Rex's scheme, which was DB dependent and a disaster overall.  Not hard to think the NE has a defensive system that makes more sense than anything Rex did.  This could be part of it, but I'd still rather have Tre.

[BillsInWilmingtonNC]

11 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

A real, full-on rebuild had to happen at some point. So far, I think the Pegulas found the right guys to lead the rebuild. They aren't afraid to make tough decisions and they definitely have very clear expectations for their players and if those expectations aren't met, that player doesn't hang around for too long.

 

I was a big fan of Watkins. I mean, his college tape is electric, the guy has some serious skills but I think he's the kind of player that expected to be able to do in the NFL what he did at Clemson. He found out pretty quick that the NFL is a whole other level. I also think all the injuries he has dealt with have affected him. I don't think he plays as fast as he used to. He had the ribs in his rookie year, then a hip surgery, I think he had something up with his ankle and then the lingering condition with his foot, which is still affecting him. All of that makes me believe that Beane and his crew may have had word from the medical staff that his foot could always be a potential issue at any point in time. Hard to commit guaranteed money to a player with a condition like that. I'd also venture to guess that's why he only got a 3-year deal and not a more standard "big time" contract which is usually five years.

 

Dareus just needed a fresh start. I think the franchise really went out of their way to help him stay on track but at the end of the day, the guy just has too much baggage. 

 

I think people will start to see just why McBeane are so big on culture. Look at the Jags for instance. On paper they're an incredibly talented team but, there are a bunch of different personalities on that roster. That, and a ton of ego. Those guys never shut up. Wouldn't be surprised if they were still chirping even after the beatdown they took last night. So you have the ego guys, then there are the lack of effort guys (Dareus) and yeah, they have a couple of true professionals like Campbell and I think Bouye would fall into that category as well. Trying to get all those guys playing together as a unit and playing for each other is that much tougher when you have personality clashes and things like that. That's why McBeane sticks to a certain formula for the types of players they want here. They have to fit not only what they do on the field but how they are in the locker room and in the meeting rooms and all that. And yeah, you can make the point that the 90s Bills had a bunch of guys with huge egos but they found a way to play together despite the egos. Some teams can't get there.I really feel that the Bills won't be one of those teams. I think they'll have harmony from top to bottom and hopefully they can combine that with their talent and be long-term contenders and not "make the playoffs once every 17 years" contenders.

 

Here's a guy that gets it....  It's all about sustaining long term success.  Sure Watkins, Dareus, Darby, and whoever else will have good games, but they aren't answers when talking about guys that you can count on.  Between Sammy's injuries and ego issues, Dareus' drug problems and drag racing, and Darby's legal issues, these guys were never going to be players that you wanted leading your team and helping mentor your young draft picks.

[BringBackOrton]

58 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Yes, but like I mentioned, Gilmore has performed much better in NE.  With how he played in Buffalo, the Bills would have been crazy to give Stephon the money he got.  Anyway, water under the bridge and I'm happy with Tre White who I think is a better CB than Gilmore.

With how he played in Buffalo, the Patriots gave him that contract.

[Simon Says]

Beane understands, and expects value. Don't confuse "production " with "value". Value is a function of cost and production. Watkins has 40 catches, on an 8 million cap hit, which works out to 200,000 per catch,. Zay Jones has 41 catches, at a 1.5 million hit , or, app. 38,000 per catch. That is , of course, over-simplified, but for those complaining about  the players the Bills gave  up, look at how much they (and their replacements)are getting paid.

[Magox]

I think we can safely say that Beane was vindicated with the Watkins Trade.  Watkins turned out to be exactly who we thought he'd turned out to be.  Inconsistent and plagued with injuries.

 

 

[LSHMEAB]

22 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Gilmore did play under Rex's scheme, which was DB dependent and a disaster overall.  Not hard to think the NE has a defensive system that makes more sense than anything Rex did.  This could be part of it, but I'd still rather have Tre.

Definitely rather have Tre. Can't really think of a corner I'd rather have and I'm the furthest thing from a homer. It's a shock to the system when he gets beat.

[Malazan]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Gilmore is still a good player with the patriots.....

 

He gets referred to as the weak link in their secondary on their forums.

[formerlyofCtown]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M.

 

I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash.

 

In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen.

The 5th for Marcel didnt hurt either.

[fansince88]

I believe it is even more clear why there is a rebuild.

[row_33]

crystal freakin clear for 20 years

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

He was excellent here.

 

He had 2 bad games in a contract year, and that's what many fans chose to fixate on...in general, the relatively low opinions of Gilmore on this board result from unrealistic expectations of cornerbacks.  In Gilmore's "bad contract year", he allowed a grand total of 2 TDs, and performed statistically better than both Richard Sherman and Patrick Peterson.

 

Now, that said, I like Tre White a lot.  He's a different style player than Gilmore, but might be just as good overall, as he's better against the run and may have better ball skills.

 

This is right. I actually do think Tre is better but Stephon Gilmore was excellent in Buffalo and is excellent in New England. A top 10 corner. 

 

The Bills signing Gilmore and drafting Watson or Mahomes would have had more wins in 2017 and more wins in 2018 and wouldn't have needed to trade Sammy Watkins. Hopefully Josh works out and if he does then in the long term it might work out to be genius. To proclaim it is now is a little premature. 

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

Has he really played that much better or did we not appreciate his talent?

 

Bills fans tend to piss on their own far too often, and I think many fans never got over the face he made when drafted.

 

I have no problem not paying Gilmore that money, but he was a better player in Buffalo than some want to admit.

 

This is spot on. 

 

The people who hated on him when he was here were wrong then and they are wrong now. 

 

There were people here at the time the Pats signed him laughing that they had paid Gilmore and not Butler. How does that take look now? 

[John from Riverside]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is right. I actually do think Tre is better but Stephon Gilmore was excellent in Buffalo and is excellent in New England. A top 10 corner. 

 

The Bills signing Gilmore and drafting Watson or Mahomes would have had more wins in 2017 and more wins in 2018 and wouldn't have needed to trade Sammy Watkins. Hopefully Josh works out and if he does then in the long term it might work out to be genius. To proclaim it is now is a little premature. 

 

This is spot on. 

 

The people who hated on him when he was here were wrong then and they are wrong now. 

 

There were people here at the time the Pats signed him laughing that they had paid Gilmore and not Butler. How does that take look now? 

Just to be clear I am not saying that Beane and McD are going to be right.....I HOPE that they are right.

 

Only that there was a thought process to this and there was a reason why players were jettisoned for draft picks.....they were not ready to take a QB in year one because they really did not know what they had in Tyrod Taylor (we know now) so they basically "punted" till the following year.....Tre, Dawkins, Milano all ended up being nice finds.  

 

You definately got the feeling that this past draft was going to be the "QB year" and it was highly regarded as a QB draft.

 

 

[Augie]

Gilmore never should have played with the club hand (what were they thinking?), and his “injury avoidance policy” at the end was frustrating, but he was generally a very good CB for us. Unfortunately, I probably associate him to the above lowlights more than I should.

 

Oh, and I didn’t even remember him making a face when he got drafted. That’s probably a good thing. 

 

 

. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Augie

[Tenhigh]

1 hour ago, BringBackOrton said:

With how he played in Buffalo, the Patriots gave him that contract.

Didn't he struggle terribly in his first season in NE?  Not saying he isn't playing great now but i think he sucked at first.