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John from Riverside

Is it starting to become a little more clear why the rebiuld?

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42 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Yes, but like I mentioned, Gilmore has performed much better in NE.  With how he played in Buffalo, the Bills would have been crazy to give Stephon the money he got.  Anyway, water under the bridge and I'm happy with Tre White who I think is a better CB than Gilmore.

Has he really played that much better or did we not appreciate his talent?

 

Bills fans tend to piss on their own far too often, and I think many fans never got over the face he made when drafted.

 

I have no problem not paying Gilmore that money, but he was a better player in Buffalo than some want to admit.

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1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

Has he really played that much better or did we not appreciate his talent?

 

Gilmore did play under Rex's scheme, which was DB dependent and a disaster overall.  Not hard to think the NE has a defensive system that makes more sense than anything Rex did.  This could be part of it, but I'd still rather have Tre.

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11 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

A real, full-on rebuild had to happen at some point. So far, I think the Pegulas found the right guys to lead the rebuild. They aren't afraid to make tough decisions and they definitely have very clear expectations for their players and if those expectations aren't met, that player doesn't hang around for too long.

 

I was a big fan of Watkins. I mean, his college tape is electric, the guy has some serious skills but I think he's the kind of player that expected to be able to do in the NFL what he did at Clemson. He found out pretty quick that the NFL is a whole other level. I also think all the injuries he has dealt with have affected him. I don't think he plays as fast as he used to. He had the ribs in his rookie year, then a hip surgery, I think he had something up with his ankle and then the lingering condition with his foot, which is still affecting him. All of that makes me believe that Beane and his crew may have had word from the medical staff that his foot could always be a potential issue at any point in time. Hard to commit guaranteed money to a player with a condition like that. I'd also venture to guess that's why he only got a 3-year deal and not a more standard "big time" contract which is usually five years.

 

Dareus just needed a fresh start. I think the franchise really went out of their way to help him stay on track but at the end of the day, the guy just has too much baggage. 

 

I think people will start to see just why McBeane are so big on culture. Look at the Jags for instance. On paper they're an incredibly talented team but, there are a bunch of different personalities on that roster. That, and a ton of ego. Those guys never shut up. Wouldn't be surprised if they were still chirping even after the beatdown they took last night. So you have the ego guys, then there are the lack of effort guys (Dareus) and yeah, they have a couple of true professionals like Campbell and I think Bouye would fall into that category as well. Trying to get all those guys playing together as a unit and playing for each other is that much tougher when you have personality clashes and things like that. That's why McBeane sticks to a certain formula for the types of players they want here. They have to fit not only what they do on the field but how they are in the locker room and in the meeting rooms and all that. And yeah, you can make the point that the 90s Bills had a bunch of guys with huge egos but they found a way to play together despite the egos. Some teams can't get there.I really feel that the Bills won't be one of those teams. I think they'll have harmony from top to bottom and hopefully they can combine that with their talent and be long-term contenders and not "make the playoffs once every 17 years" contenders.

 

Here's a guy that gets it....  It's all about sustaining long term success.  Sure Watkins, Dareus, Darby, and whoever else will have good games, but they aren't answers when talking about guys that you can count on.  Between Sammy's injuries and ego issues, Dareus' drug problems and drag racing, and Darby's legal issues, these guys were never going to be players that you wanted leading your team and helping mentor your young draft picks.

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58 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Yes, but like I mentioned, Gilmore has performed much better in NE.  With how he played in Buffalo, the Bills would have been crazy to give Stephon the money he got.  Anyway, water under the bridge and I'm happy with Tre White who I think is a better CB than Gilmore.

With how he played in Buffalo, the Patriots gave him that contract.

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Beane understands, and expects value. Don't confuse "production " with "value". Value is a function of cost and production. Watkins has 40 catches, on an 8 million cap hit, which works out to 200,000 per catch,. Zay Jones has 41 catches, at a 1.5 million hit , or, app. 38,000 per catch. That is , of course, over-simplified, but for those complaining about  the players the Bills gave  up, look at how much they (and their replacements)are getting paid.

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I think we can safely say that Beane was vindicated with the Watkins Trade.  Watkins turned out to be exactly who we thought he'd turned out to be.  Inconsistent and plagued with injuries.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Gilmore did play under Rex's scheme, which was DB dependent and a disaster overall.  Not hard to think the NE has a defensive system that makes more sense than anything Rex did.  This could be part of it, but I'd still rather have Tre.

Definitely rather have Tre. Can't really think of a corner I'd rather have and I'm the furthest thing from a homer. It's a shock to the system when he gets beat.

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1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Gilmore is still a good player with the patriots.....

 

He gets referred to as the weak link in their secondary on their forums.

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1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M.

 

I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash.

 

In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen.

The 5th for Marcel didnt hurt either.

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I believe it is even more clear why there is a rebuild.

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crystal freakin clear for 20 years

 

 

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1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

He was excellent here.

 

He had 2 bad games in a contract year, and that's what many fans chose to fixate on...in general, the relatively low opinions of Gilmore on this board result from unrealistic expectations of cornerbacks.  In Gilmore's "bad contract year", he allowed a grand total of 2 TDs, and performed statistically better than both Richard Sherman and Patrick Peterson.

 

Now, that said, I like Tre White a lot.  He's a different style player than Gilmore, but might be just as good overall, as he's better against the run and may have better ball skills.

 

This is right. I actually do think Tre is better but Stephon Gilmore was excellent in Buffalo and is excellent in New England. A top 10 corner. 

 

The Bills signing Gilmore and drafting Watson or Mahomes would have had more wins in 2017 and more wins in 2018 and wouldn't have needed to trade Sammy Watkins. Hopefully Josh works out and if he does then in the long term it might work out to be genius. To proclaim it is now is a little premature. 

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

Has he really played that much better or did we not appreciate his talent?

 

Bills fans tend to piss on their own far too often, and I think many fans never got over the face he made when drafted.

 

I have no problem not paying Gilmore that money, but he was a better player in Buffalo than some want to admit.

 

This is spot on. 

 

The people who hated on him when he was here were wrong then and they are wrong now. 

 

There were people here at the time the Pats signed him laughing that they had paid Gilmore and not Butler. How does that take look now? 

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14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is right. I actually do think Tre is better but Stephon Gilmore was excellent in Buffalo and is excellent in New England. A top 10 corner. 

 

The Bills signing Gilmore and drafting Watson or Mahomes would have had more wins in 2017 and more wins in 2018 and wouldn't have needed to trade Sammy Watkins. Hopefully Josh works out and if he does then in the long term it might work out to be genius. To proclaim it is now is a little premature. 

 

This is spot on. 

 

The people who hated on him when he was here were wrong then and they are wrong now. 

 

There were people here at the time the Pats signed him laughing that they had paid Gilmore and not Butler. How does that take look now? 

Just to be clear I am not saying that Beane and McD are going to be right.....I HOPE that they are right.

 

Only that there was a thought process to this and there was a reason why players were jettisoned for draft picks.....they were not ready to take a QB in year one because they really did not know what they had in Tyrod Taylor (we know now) so they basically "punted" till the following year.....Tre, Dawkins, Milano all ended up being nice finds.  

 

You definately got the feeling that this past draft was going to be the "QB year" and it was highly regarded as a QB draft.

 

 

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Gilmore never should have played with the club hand (what were they thinking?), and his “injury avoidance policy” at the end was frustrating, but he was generally a very good CB for us. Unfortunately, I probably associate him to the above lowlights more than I should.

 

Oh, and I didn’t even remember him making a face when he got drafted. That’s probably a good thing. 

 

 

Edited by Augie

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1 hour ago, BringBackOrton said:

With how he played in Buffalo, the Patriots gave him that contract.

Didn't he struggle terribly in his first season in NE?  Not saying he isn't playing great now but i think he sucked at first. 

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3 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Sammy and Marcel would have never fit it to the alleged process, guys that really wanted to be hear, work hard, sacrifice.

Benjamin played 12+ games in the process.

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3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Nope...had they picked up Sammy's 5th-year option, he'd be on this team right now at the exact same cap hit as Benjamin.

 

Guaranteed to only play part of the season though due to that foot. 3/4 in this year's case.

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4 minutes ago, downunderbill said:

 

Guaranteed to only play part of the season though due to that foot. 3/4 in this year's case.

 

Well, not guaranteed, but in any case I'd take his 3/4 season over what the team got out of Benjamin 100 times out of 100

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We only saved 2 mil against the cap by trading Dareus. Most of his contract turned into dead cap after the trade. 

 

There was an out in his contract after this season. Given that we barely save against the cap by trading him, I would've rather kept him around. 

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3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M.

 

I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash.

 

In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen.

 

I dont understand your math.  How is it a wash?  One, its not just about the money, its about who we are paying the money too.  And second, how is KB a wash with Sammy financially?  Sammy is making $16M per, KB wasn't making close to that.  

 

We saved a ton moving on from Marcell and not keeping Sammy.  And as much as I have been a believer in Sammy's talents, its also painfully clear he is not remotely close to living up to expectations of his contract.  Rams replaced him for a guy that is only making $500k less than Sammy and gave up a first round pick to get him.  And that guy Cooks, is grossly out performing what Sammy did in 16 full games on the same roster.  Now Sammy has had a couple good games in KC but mostly been underwhelming in an offense that has a QB about to pass for around 50 TDs and around 5000 yards.  

 

So in two explosive offenses, Sammy is the one not performing statistically like his contract suggests.  In LA, his value went further than the stat sheet in terms of his downfield threat opening up the game for others...however, Cooks is playing the same role and still grossly out performing Sammy in LA.  

 

This front office got a 2nd round pick and a quality player that helped us make the playoffs last year for a WR they were never going to pay the money he would command and were going to lose for nothing.  Or they could have overpaid him to be an 800 yard receiver here too, which would be 300 yards more than he put up with McCoy, Goff, and Gurley as the #1 target (alleged #1 WR).  

Edited by Alphadawg7
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I’m liking the direction of the rebuild. I expect them to have an amazing offseason and hopefully we see that pay off and beat the Pats next year.

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3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Marcel - not worth the money...lazy...is not improving the jags defense (you could make a case that he is hurting it for the amount he is getting paid but is not a team leader)

 

Sammy - foot is hurt again....not living up to the draft status and cost on 3rd team has played with two different very good QBs.

 

These are the players that we would have given contracts to if we did not trade them away for draft picks....our cap space would be nil.....and we would be right where we were.

 

This is why they were let go...this is why we rebiult...this is why Beane and McD did what they did.

 

 

 

 

It's been clear since the day they were moved.

 

What took you so long?

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13 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

We only saved 2 mil against the cap by trading Dareus. Most of his contract turned into dead cap after the trade. 

 

There was an out in his contract after this season. Given that we barely save against the cap by trading him, I would've rather kept him around. 

 

Im fine with that, he doesn’t have the drive to be great anymore. Just an average NFL DT at this point.

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1 minute ago, QCity said:

 

 

It's been clear since the day they were moved.

 

What took you so long?

I have been there since day one of this......and taking a lot of heat for it I might add

 

This is directed to the non believers

15 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

We only saved 2 mil against the cap by trading Dareus. Most of his contract turned into dead cap after the trade. 

 

There was an out in his contract after this season. Given that we barely save against the cap by trading him, I would've rather kept him around. 

Why?  So he can drag down the team?

 

Or maybe your ok with him falling asleep in team meetings, smoking his fake weed, contantly being injured?

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12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I dont understand your math.  How is it a wash?  One, its not just about the money, its about who we are paying the money too.  And second, how is KB a wash with Sammy financially?  Sammy is making $16M per, KB wasn't making close to that.  

 

We saved a ton moving on from Marcell and not keeping Sammy.  And as much as I have been a believer in Sammy's talents, its also painfully clear he is not remotely close to living up to expectations of his contract.  Rams replaced him for a guy that is only making $500k less than Sammy and gave up a first round pick to get him.  And that guy Cooks, is grossly out performing what Sammy did in 16 full games on the same roster.  Now Sammy has had a couple good games in KC but mostly been underwhelming in an offense that has a QB about to pass for around 50 TDs and around 5000 yards.  

 

So in two explosive offenses, Sammy is the one not performing statistically like his contract suggests.  In LA, his value went further than the stat sheet in terms of his downfield threat opening up the game for others...however, Cooks is playing the same role and still grossly out performing Sammy in LA.  

 

This front office got a 2nd round pick and a quality player that helped us make the playoffs last year for a WR they were never going to pay the money he would command and were going to lose for nothing.  Or they could have overpaid him to be an 800 yard receiver here too, which would be 300 yards more than he put up with McCoy, Goff, and Gurley as the #1 target (alleged #1 WR).  

 

It's easy: had the team picked up Sammy's option year, he'd have been given a cap number equal to the average of the top 10 WRs in the league--that's true for any 1st round WR, and so his cap number would be identical to Benjamin's 

 

Moreover, he's a better player than Benjamin. Had the team kept him and let him walk in FA, they'd have gotten a 3rd round compensatory pick.

 

And none of that is the point. I refuted John's claim that the team would have suffered cap-wise by keeping Dareus and Sammy--it's simply not true 

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