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John from Riverside

Is it starting to become a little more clear why the rebiuld?

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14 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Gilmore wouldn't come up and tackle my grandmother.   Woods is a SoCal softy; his agent pulled him out.

 

all your points are on target.. the process is working.    This was all abundantly clear to me a year ago.   Trust IT. 

 

What on earth are you talking about "Woods is a SoCal softy; his agent pulled him out"

 

McDermott (and whatever advice he was getting behind the scenes) didn't think Woods was worth the 5 year, 34M contract he got from the Rams.

He cost them $7M last year and is costing $5.4M this year, certainly way less than the Bills chose to pay for Corey Coleman (fully guaranteed) and Kelvin Benjamin.

 

Woods is 100% 'process' guy who willingly blocked and did whatever else was asked of him while here, putting up modest numbers because he got low targets. 

 

McBeane have made some good moves, but looking at their decisions at WR, they are very hard to defend based upon results, and it's hard to defend an argument to the contrary.  It's almost as though they're looking at the draft position of guys they bring in vs. actual in depth scouting.

 

OL would be another position where their choices are questionable.

 

 

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Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

Gotta love the NE fans--the only pro bowler in their secondary is the weak link!

 

 The only corner that didn't get abused by Nick Foles is the weak link.

 

 If folks on this board judged by play and not emotions they'd see the obvious 

 

How you doing my friend? Wishing you a happy Holidays!

 

In regards to Gilmore, no worries.  We both not gonna change our ideas.  So no big deal. I was just busting your balls cuz its funny that 2 years later we still talking about Gilmore.

 

Also, the Eagles won the game!

 

Cheers mate.

 

All the best

 

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19 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen.

 

The motivation behind the tear down was first and foremost getting in position to draft a franchise QB specifically in the 2018 draft. Every other motivation behind the moves was secondary to that goal.

 

Sammy, Darby, Ragland, Marcel, Tyrod were all moved to acquire assets that not only would give Buffalo the fire power needed to reel in their QB through a draft day trade, but also to alleviate the the damage inflicted by the loss of draft picks that was sure to come due to the trade.

 

 

Edited by KennyDavisEyes
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2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What on earth are you talking about "Woods is a SoCal softy; his agent pulled him out"

 

McDermott (and whatever advice he was getting behind the scenes) didn't think Woods was worth the 5 year, 34M contract he got from the Rams.

He cost them $7M last year and is costing $5.4M this year, certainly way less than the Bills chose to pay for Corey Coleman (fully guaranteed) and Kelvin Benjamin.

 

Woods is 100% 'process' guy who willingly blocked and did whatever else was asked of him while here, putting up modest numbers because he got low targets. 

 

McBeane have made some good moves, but looking at their decisions at WR, they are very hard to defend based upon results, and it's hard to defend an argument to the contrary.  It's almost as though they're looking at the draft position of guys they bring in vs. actual in depth scouting.

 

OL would be another position where their choices are questionable.

 

 

 

In his tenure with Buffalo, Woods did block well.....That's all he showed in Buffalo.   Good on him for having a breakout season last year and playing well this year!

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Just now, KW95 said:

 

In his tenure with Buffalo, Woods did block well.....That's all he showed in Buffalo.   Good on him for having a breakout season last year and playing well this year!

Well see, you gots to have a decent offensive game plan and someone to deliver the ball.  Letting Woods walk was a big mistake and I said so at the time.  People talk about him wanting out etc. yet they have yet to provide evidence. The Bills ignored him, he moved on.

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1 minute ago, KW95 said:

 

In his tenure with Buffalo, Woods did block well.....That's all he showed in Buffalo.   Good on him for having a breakout season last year and playing well this year!

 

Horsefeathers on "all he showed".  In 2016, he racked up 613 yds on a mighty 76 targets with a 67% catch percentage and looking at film, he was open far more often than he was targeted.  It doesn't take a math genius to project that if he got the 145 targets KB got in 2014, Woods could easily have  racked up >1300 yds.  And he was just a rock-steady gamer.

 

What he's shown in LA is not some "breakout season", he's playing there exactly as he played here, he just has a QB and an offense that utilize him more.  In fact his catch % is a little bit lower, because he is being asked to make more high degree of difficulty catches (and doing so very well).

I've said before, I'll say again now, McBeane have made some good moves.  But let's not pretend that every choice they made was forced on them or has shown good football judgement.  Some of their decisions have been head-scratching or bad.  WR choices would be an example of the latter.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, KW95 said:

 

How you doing my friend? Wishing you a happy Holidays!

 

In regards to Gilmore, no worries.  We both not gonna change our ideas.  So no big deal. I was just busting your balls cuz its funny that 2 years later we still talking about Gilmore.

 

Also, the Eagles won the game!

 

Cheers mate.

 

All the best

 

 

Oh you know me well enough by now to know we're good! If we can't bust each other's balls at this point we're in real trouble 

 

Thanks for the well wishes! Have a great holiday and go everyone but NE :lol:

55 minutes ago, KennyDavisEyes said:

 

The motivation behind the tear down was first and foremost getting in position to draft a franchise QB specifically in the 2018 draft. Every other motivation behind the moves was secondary to that goal.

 

Sammy, Darby, Ragland, Marcel, Tyrod were all moved to acquire assets that not only would give Buffalo the fire power needed to reel in their QB through a draft day trade, but also to alleviate the the damage inflicted by the loss of draft picks that was sure to come due to the trade.

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

My point was more focused on the cap difference being inconsequential 

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11 hours ago, djp14150 said:

Sammy for a 2+ CB

Darby for. 3 + WR

buf 3  and 7 for Benjamin

buf 1 Glenn their 2 and 2 for Allen

Taylor and KC pick for Edmunds 

 

they keep sammy and Darby...

 

they trade 2 1st  Allen+ 3 from Tampa 

 

they have their 2, their 3, CLE 3. They’d have 3 players instead of just Edmunds.

 

 

 

 

 

This is hindsight bias at its worst. Lost in the discussion of the Sammy trade is that McDermott knew he would be drafting a QB this year and he didn't know what the draft would look like. They traded down for a 1st, and since Sammy wasn't in their long term plans they traded him for an extra 2nd. That gave them more ammunition to trade up for a QB which is the only thing that really mattered this year. Having a potential franchise QB is much more important than anything Sammy or Glenn could have offered us. If Allen becomes great no one will care.

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55 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Horsefeathers on "all he showed".  In 2016, he racked up 613 yds on a mighty 76 targets with a 67% catch percentage and looking at film, he was open far more often than he was targeted.  It doesn't take a math genius to project that if he got the 145 targets KB got in 2014, Woods could easily have  racked up >1300 yds.  And he was just a rock-steady gamer.

 

What he's shown in LA is not some "breakout season", he's playing there exactly as he played here, he just has a QB and an offense that utilize him more.  In fact his catch % is a little bit lower, because he is being asked to make more high degree of difficulty catches (and doing so very well).

I've said before, I'll say again now, McBeane have made some good moves.  But let's not pretend that every choice they made was forced on them or has shown good football judgement.  Some of their decisions have been head-scratching or bad.  WR choices would be an example of the latter.

 

 

As usual, your reasoning and judgment are sound, Hapless. Recent personnel changes on offense give me hope. I think Daboll has gotten their attention and they have moved towards speed and away from exclusively trying to replicate the Panthers' paradigm, even if one can plausibly argue Allen is much like Cam Newton. In any event, they need to hit on o-line, wr, rb, te -- we need a lot of upgrades -- the way they have shown astute evaluation on defense. If that happens, we may be in for a fun ride.

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

As usual, your reasoning and judgment are sound, Hapless. Recent personnel changes on offense give me hope. I think Daboll has gotten their attention and they have moved towards speed and away from exclusively trying to replicate the Panthers' paradigm, even if one can plausibly argue Allen is much like Cam Newton. In any event, they need to hit on o-line, wr, rb, te -- we need a lot of upgrades -- the way they have shown astute evaluation on defense. If that happens, we may be in for a fun ride.

 

Yes.  That is my concern (and I don't think I'm alone).  I think overall, Beane has made solid to good changes on D.  There are a couple head-scratchers - signing Vernon Davis instead of retaining Gaines - but overall as you say, astute talent evaluation.

 

The choices on offense have been far more mixed, puzzling, or outright bad.  At times it has seemed to me that they're practically acting like fans "I've heard of him!  He was a first round pick, git 'er done!" instead of actual in-depth scouting and intelligence gathering.

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The re-build was necessary because the coach didn't think he could handle it any other way.

 

That's the only reason.

 

He inherited a roster with plenty of talent and plenty of cap flexibility going forward to keep a talented young core together...........he then had what looks like the second coming of Dan Marino fall right into his lap on his first draft day...........some coaches(McVay? Reid? Lynn?) take this excellent situation and turn it into a championship contender by year 2.

 

McD..........welp.......4-8 this year...........and 8-14 in games since the "re-build" cherry-on-top Dareus/Benjamin trade deadline moves.

 

I get where you are coming from John...........most of us are feeling good right now because we have a young QB that we are looking forward to.......but it's otherwise just another dismal Bills season performance-wise.........complete with embarrassing blowouts and the obligatory offensive struggles.     The defense is playing well but that's nothing new.......we've seen plenty of good defenses during the 23 years and counting since the team has won a playoff game. 

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4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes.  That is my concern (and I don't think I'm alone).  I think overall, Beane has made solid to good changes on D.  There are a couple head-scratchers - signing Vernon Davis instead of retaining Gaines - but overall as you say, astute talent evaluation.

 

The choices on offense have been far more mixed, puzzling, or outright bad.  At times it has seemed to me that they're practically acting like fans "I've heard of him!  He was a first round pick, git 'er done!" instead of actual in-depth scouting and intelligence gathering.

Yes, I share your concern. If it turns out they hit on Allen, Jones (marginally, perhaps, but I don't think he's a bust),  Dawkins and perhaps Teller, it mitigates a lot of decisions that were clearly bad. I still really hope there are other voices and perspectives brought in, because it's hard to have confidence in their acumen, particularly at the receiver position.

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20 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Well John, you made the statement that the team would have zero cap space had they not dealt those guys.  It's not true...the effect on cap space would be minimal.

 

And yes, we can almost definitively say that there's no way they'd have traded a 3rd round pick in a year that they were trying to accumulate draft capitol for Benjamin if they had Watkins on an identical contract.

 

The big difference is that the team would've been forced to trade a 2019 pick to get Allen instead of a 2018 2nd.

 

Yes,  he's well worth the contract, which is what many of us said at the time.

Who, how, why would we not be at zero?

Sammy was signed for 3/48 mil.

this year his cap hit is 7.8 mil.

Our cap space is 8-9 mil. Looks pretty close to zero.

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4 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

Who, how, why would we not be at zero?

Sammy was signed for 3/48 mil.

this year his cap hit is 7.8 mil.

Our cap space is 8-9 mil. Looks pretty close to zero.

 

Dude, you can't just look at one move and say "cap close to zero"

 

We paid KB $8.5M this year and are still paying while he plays for the Chiefs, and we're paying ~$3M for Corey Coleman to play for the Giants, just for 2 moves that add up to $11.5M, see the point?

 

 

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16 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Watkins cap hit the next two years is 19.2 mil and 21 mil.  The guy's availability isn't good and neither are his stats.  No, I wouldn't want Watkins.

 

We will end up overpaying for a FA WR anyway. We can afford 19 and 21 million while we have so many rookie contracts. BUT that’s all besides the point. Just this year alone having him over Benjamin would have been a huge upgrade even if he was injured. 

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20 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Actually, the difference in cap space is quite small...have to assume they don't sign Star if Marcel is still here, so the difference is all of $5M.

 

I'm near certain that, had they picked up Sammy's option, they wouldn't have traded for Benjamin, so it's a literal wash.

 

In fact, the only impact is that moving Sammy gave the team a 2nd-round pick that they used to trade up for Allen.

 

 

Yeah it was interesting to hear Beane lamenting how much he had to overpay relative to what the market was offering to move up in trades.

 

There reportedly wasn't really a lot of competition to move up to get Allen or Edmunds but he had to give up the higher picks simply because he had them.

 

He almost certainly could have traded the Tyrod pick instead of the Watkins pick to move up for Allen and the Benjamin pick(Bills own 3rd) to move up for Edmunds.

 

They basically gained nothing trading Watkins for Benjamin........and that's before you consider not having Sammy with Tyrod last season or the brutal performances of Benjamin.

 

I am glad they at least got Allen.......to hopefully salvage some squandered luck wrt a potential franchise-low-point in the pass on a record breaking QB in Mahomes....... but he handled the accumulation of draft capital with the efficiency of a bulldozer.

 

 

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I hope they extend Barkley for the duration of Josh's rookie contract 

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1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Horsefeathers on "all he showed".  In 2016, he racked up 613 yds on a mighty 76 targets with a 67% catch percentage and looking at film, he was open far more often than he was targeted.  It doesn't take a math genius to project that if he got the 145 targets KB got in 2014, Woods could easily have  racked up >1300 yds.  And he was just a rock-steady gamer.

 

What he's shown in LA is not some "breakout season", he's playing there exactly as he played here, he just has a QB and an offense that utilize him more.  In fact his catch % is a little bit lower, because he is being asked to make more high degree of difficulty catches (and doing so very well).

I've said before, I'll say again now, McBeane have made some good moves.  But let's not pretend that every choice they made was forced on them or has shown good football judgement.  Some of their decisions have been head-scratching or bad.  WR choices would be an example of the latter.

 

 

Robert Woods was not a first round pick. KB and Corey Coleman were first round picks. Therefore, Corey Coleman and Kelvin Benjamin are better than Robert Woods. What don't you understand about this simple concept?

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12 hours ago, Augie said:

I won’t deny it’s a “rebuild”, but it may be the world’s fastest rebuild. We made the palyoffs last year after a 17 year drought. We will miss it this year due to the obvious moves. I would not be shocked AT ALL to make the playoffs next year. So if you want to complain about “only” making the playoffs 2 out of 3 years.....after a 17 year drought.....you just want to complain. The arrow is pointed up people, especially if Josh is the guy. 

 

Rebuilds don't go backward as this one has.  Unfortunately, McBeane wanted to win now and win later...which means deconstructing the roster as you build it.  Off the top of my head I can't recall one team that's done that.      

 

And now they're fumbling around back to talking about the "process."  What precisely is the process and how much sense does "the process" make if the team goes from 9-7 to say 6-10?    

 

Last year is last year and bragging about slipping into the playoffs in 2017 means nothing now.  We hope they have the QB, but the rest of the offense is a mess.  I still can't get over them now realizing they need speedy receivers...after 2 off-seasons "rebuilding" and having drafted a QB who has a plus plus arm.   

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17 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

Gilmore wouldn't come up and tackle my grandmother.   Woods is a SoCal softy; his agent pulled him out.

 

all your points are on target.. the process is working.    This was all abundantly clear to me a year ago.   Trust IT. 

Woods was the toughest sonofabitch we've had at WR since Andre.

 

Don't let his desire to return home and have QBs throw him the ball cloud your memory of him.  

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21 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

they traded Marcel's lazyness for a DT that is not as talented.....but also shows up to work every week.....and our run defense is actually good.

 

We dont know if they would not have picked up Benjamin...that is total guess

 

A second round pick is not a small thing.

Effert beats talent every day of the week and especially on Sundays.

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22 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Marcel - not worth the money...lazy...is not improving the jags defense (you could make a case that he is hurting it for the amount he is getting paid but is not a team leader)

 

Sammy - foot is hurt again....not living up to the draft status and cost on 3rd team has played with two different very good QBs.

 

These are the players that we would have given contracts to if we did not trade them away for draft picks....our cap space would be nil.....and we would be right where we were.

 

This is why they were let go...this is why we rebiult...this is why Beane and McD did what they did.

 

Is it becoming more clear?

 

Its not all perfect.....I wanted to keep Woods but he didnt want to stay.....Gilmore is still a good player with the patriots.....

Could you please be decent enough to go back and edit your thread title for spelling?


Thanks.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Dude, you can't just look at one move and say "cap close to zero"

 

We paid KB $8.5M this year and are still paying while he plays for the Chiefs, and we're paying ~$3M for Corey Coleman to play for the Giants, just for 2 moves that add up to $11.5M, see the point?

 

 

First off im well aware of how the cap hit works. Thats why I said nothing about the other players.  Im well aware of how the cap works. I follow it closely. We are still paying for alot more players than them. 

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10 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Could you please be decent enough to go back and edit your thread title for spelling?


Thanks.

 

 

Fat chance. I believe he thinks looking like a moron is endearing.

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1 hour ago, jr1 said:

I hope they extend Barkley for the duration of Josh's rookie contract 

Remember when Rob Johnson looked good in 1 game?

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