How much does the reveal that missed Zay Jones in endzone pass affect your inaccuracy POV?

[Kelly the Dog]

I assume most everyone had the same reaction that I did after the play and even the replay. Terrible pass. Josh just missed a wide open Jones in the end zone. He's GOT to make that pass. He missed a couple others in the game and he had a bunch of really solid if not great throws. But the "inaccuracy" tag put on him still haunts him, and he does miss some balls that he needs to hit.

 

But...

 

When I heard from McD, Zay and Josh about what actually happened on that play, it wasn't an inaccurate pass it was a perfect pass. Zay was expected to sit on the route, and that is where Josh threw it. Josh was being diplomatic in his interview, saying that he should have known Zay was going to continue instead of sitting because there was so much open endzone but it is clear that it was not at all an inaccurate pass, it went exactly where he wanted it.

 

To me, that knowledge, has a big affect on the overall game Josh had in my perception. I thought he had a very good game overall but missed several throws. The fact that the biggest misfire was not a misfire, and would have been his third TD to Jones makes a substantial difference in my grading of the game.

 

A lot of times we as fans don't know this kind of stuff, and our evaluations and biases suffer because of it. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

I assume most everyone had the same reaction that I did after the play and even the replay. Terrible pass. Josh just missed a wide open Jones in the end zone. He's GOT to make that pass. He missed a couple others in the game and he had a bunch of really solid if not great throws. But the "inaccuracy" tag put on him still haunts him, and he does miss some balls that he needs to hit.

 

But...

 

When I heard from McD, Zay and Josh about what actually happened on that play, it wasn't an inaccurate pass it was a perfect pass. Zay was expected to sit on the route, and that is where Josh threw it. Josh was being diplomatic in his interview, saying that he should have known Zay was going to continue instead of sitting because there was so much open endzone but it is clear that it was not at all an inaccurate pass, it went exactly where he wanted it.

 

To me, that knowledge, has a big affect on the overall game Josh had in my perception. I thought he had a very good game overall but missed several throws. The fact that the biggest misfire was not a misfire, and would have been his third TD to Jones makes a substantial difference in my grading of the game.

 

A lot of times we as fans don't know this kind of stuff, and our evaluations and biases suffer because of it. 

 

Allen said in post game that Zay was right to keep running against cover 0 with it being his fault. Either way they weren't on the same page. 

[BringBackOrton]

It doesn’t because every QB misses throws. If you’re hanging your hat on one throw like “see!!!!” your evaluation opinion is probably terrible anyway.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Good post.

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Allen said in post game that Zay was right to keep running against cover 0 with it being his fault. Either way they weren't on the same page. 

I referenced that but he was being diplomatic. If you think about what he said, he inferred that he should have known Zay was going to not do what the play called for. In his PC, McD inferred that Zay was supposed to sit.

 

 

[VW82]

It doesn't impact it that much because it was one of about 8-10 missed throws today that were absolute head scratchers. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by VW82

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

It doesn’t because every QB misses throws. If you’re hanging your hat on one throw like “see!!!!” your evaluation opinion is probably terrible anyway.

I'm just curious. It doesn't matter to you to learn that it wasn't a missed pass by Josh when it appeared to be?

Just now, VW82 said:

It doesn't impact it that much because it was one of about 8-10 missed throws today that were absolute head scratchers. 

It's a TD though. Those matter. It was four points. We lost by four points.

[BillsFan130]

Is that right eh? Definitely thought it was on Allen. Just shows how hard it can be to judge players sometimes without knowing their routes/responsibilities

[VW82]

17 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

It's a TD though. Those matter. It was four points. We lost by four points.

 

It was a big play. So were the countless other ones Josh missed today. Blame the Zay throw on him or don't. My point was it doesn't change my overall perception today of our QB. He made numerous impressive plays today with his legs, and a few with his arm, but he missed a bunch due to inaccuracy, and left a lot of points on the table because of it. It wasn't just about one throw. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by VW82

[Nextmanup]

Allen's inaccuracy straight up cost us 3 TDs today, including what could have been the game winner at the end.

 

Yes, Clay probably should have caught that ball, but that doesn't change the fact that it was inaccurate and very poorly thrown.

 

I'd further suggest had it been a good throw, it likely would have been caught.

 

 

[Magox]

We can debate whether Zay should have kept running through the play or sat open in the endzone but it appears that this wasn't an inaccurate pass as much as miscommunication between the two.

 

In retrospect maybe Allen should have lobbed it in there, the play was so wide open that no one would have made a play on the ball.  Lobbing it would have given Zay time to adjust.

 

They will learn from it.

[Sig1Hunter]

He threw it where he wanted it to go. Miscommunication aside, it's not inaccurate if it went where he intended.... right?

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, Nextmanup said:

Allen's inaccuracy straight up cost us 3 TDs today, including what could have been the game winner at the end.

 

Yes, Clay probably should have caught that ball, but that doesn't change the fact that it was inaccurate and very poorly thrown.

 

I'd further suggest had it been a good throw, it likely would have been caught.

 

 

What do you expect from Allen? A rookie going on the road leads his offence to over 400 yards with 2 TDS and 1 real interception. Also dropped TD passes on top of it with missed calls by the officials

[Rico]

2 minutes ago, Magox said:

We can debate whether Zay should have kept running through the play or sat open in the endzone but it appears that this wasn't an inaccurate pass as much as miscommunication between the two.

 

In retrospect maybe Allen should have lobbed it in there, the play was so wide open that no one would have made a play on the ball.  Lobbing it would have given Zay time to adjust.

 

They will learn from it.

and that's the important thing.

[bklnpete]

That should have been 6'5 Benjamin in that spot to catch that pass. Unfortunately Kelvin took himself off the field before that play. 

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, billsfan11 said:

Is that right eh? Definitely thought it was on Allen. Just shows how hard it can be to judge players sometimes without knowing their routes/responsibilities

From what the players said along with McD after the game, the pattern was for Zay to sit in the endzone, which is right where Josh threw it, expecting him to sit and not keep running. Zay saw a wide open endzone so he didn't sit he kept running to the open space. Josh said, diplomatically IMO, that he should have known that Zay was going to go to this wide open space and throw it accordingly. Zay basically admitted that he kept running when Josh thought he was going to stop.

 

They both, admirably, took responsibility for it. But the real point is that the main criticism of Josh is that he is inaccurate at times, and misses throws he needs to make, and that was a horrible misfire to a wide open WR that should have been a TD. But it turns out regardless of who's fault it was (the pattern called for him to stop, not continue), that it was a very accurate pass and not a very inaccurate pass.

[Big Turk]

It only effects it if you think it was an inaccurate pass because it was a bad throw instead of because 2 players saw 2 different things.

 

Jones saw Cover 0 man to man and kept running because he saw green in front of him. Allen said he was correct and it was 100% on him because he thought he was going to sit down in the spot. Just a rookie mistake and misreading the situation NOT an inaccurate throw.

[Kelly the Dog]

5 minutes ago, Magox said:

We can debate whether Zay should have kept running through the play or sat open in the endzone but it appears that this wasn't an inaccurate pass as much as miscommunication between the two.

 

In retrospect maybe Allen should have lobbed it in there, the play was so wide open that no one would have made a play on the ball.  Lobbing it would have given Zay time to adjust.

 

They will learn from it.

That's not really true IMO. It was an accurate pass. The pattern called for him to sit. The pass went right to that spot, a couple yards behind Zay. But it's where he was supposed to be. He didn't stop. The "miscommunication" was that Josh didn't know Zay was going to continue to the middle of the endzone which was wide, wide open and a year or two from now they both would know he would break off the pattern. But the fact is Josh threw the ball right where he expected Zay to be and the play called for Zay to be. Zay kept running because he was wide open.

[Success]

Doesn’t matter to me either way.  I can’t remember a fan base picking apart every single throw with such excruciating detail.

 

Allen was great today - he has that will to win that you want in a QB and leader.  

 

I wonder how many of his detractors wanted Cousins and his accuracy?

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said:

From what the players said along with McD after the game, the pattern was for Zay to sit in the endzone, which is right where Josh threw it, expecting him to sit and not keep running. Zay saw a wide open endzone so he didn't sit he kept running to the open space. Josh said, diplomatically IMO, that he should have known that Zay was going to go to this wide open space and throw it accordingly. Zay basically admitted that he kept running when Josh thought he was going to stop.

 

They both, admirably, took responsibility for it. But the real point is that the main criticism of Josh is that he is inaccurate at times, and misses throws he needs to make, and that was a horrible misfire to a wide open WR that should have been a TD. But it turns out regardless of who's fault it was (the pattern called for him to stop, not continue), that it was a very accurate pass and not a very inaccurate pass.

IMO, Allen's completion percentage is negatively affected far more by two things other than inaccurate throws:

 

1) Receivers dropping balls

2) Throwaways...it seems he has quite a few of these and its clear he is being coached to throw the ball away if there is nobody open and no space to run.

 

Since Allen doesnt throw many passes usually, an 8 of 14 passing line becomes 8 of 19 with throwaways.

 

I'm watching many of Allen's passes hit people on the money much more often than i expected hearing about his inaccuracy. Sometimes he needs to learn when to dial it down a little but overall i think he is more accurate than a lot of people think.

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I assume most everyone had the same reaction that I did after the play and even the replay. Terrible pass. Josh just missed a wide open Jones in the end zone. He's GOT to make that pass. He missed a couple others in the game and he had a bunch of really solid if not great throws. But the "inaccuracy" tag put on him still haunts him, and he does miss some balls that he needs to hit.

 

But...

 

When I heard from McD, Zay and Josh about what actually happened on that play, it wasn't an inaccurate pass it was a perfect pass. Zay was expected to sit on the route, and that is where Josh threw it. Josh was being diplomatic in his interview, saying that he should have known Zay was going to continue instead of sitting because there was so much open endzone but it is clear that it was not at all an inaccurate pass, it went exactly where he wanted it.

 

To me, that knowledge, has a big affect on the overall game Josh had in my perception. I thought he had a very good game overall but missed several throws. The fact that the biggest misfire was not a misfire, and would have been his third TD to Jones makes a substantial difference in my grading of the game.

 

A lot of times we as fans don't know this kind of stuff, and our evaluations and biases suffer because of it. 

I said exactly this when the play happened in the shoutbox to @jaybee. 

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

4 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

It only effects it if you think it was an inaccurate pass because it was a bad throw instead of because 2 players saw 2 different things.

 

Jones saw Cover 0 man to man and kept running because he saw green in front of him. Allen said he was correct and it was 100% on him because he thought he was going to sit down in the spot. Just a rookie mistake and misreading the situation NOT an inaccurate throw.

You may be right. That's not how I interpreted what they all said. It didn't appear to be a -- if they do this, we do that pattern. It appeared to be a specific pattern that Zay broke off because the endzone was so wide open. Those are two different issues. I don't think Josh misread the coverage.

[VW82]

13 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Allen's inaccuracy straight up cost us 3 TDs today, including what could have been the game winner at the end.

 

Yes, Clay probably should have caught that ball, but that doesn't change the fact that it was inaccurate and very poorly thrown.

 

I'd further suggest had it been a good throw, it likely would have been caught.

 

 

 

I disagree with this though. Consider the play that unfolded before that throw. Allen evades two rushers with a reverse field double move, then while moving diagonally forward and to the left, he throws back across his body going the wrong way toward the back right pylon. He came up a little short. Clay still should have caught that.   

[row_33]

17 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Allen's inaccuracy straight up cost us 3 TDs today, including what could have been the game winner at the end.

 

Yes, Clay probably should have caught that ball, but that doesn't change the fact that it was inaccurate and very poorly thrown.

 

I'd further suggest had it been a good throw, it likely would have been caught.

 

 

 

Be patient, many steps to climb in this game to get to the top

 

you seem happy the Bills lost and that they deserved to due to Allen missing a few targets 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by row_33

[Mango]

23 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I referenced that but he was being diplomatic. If you think about what he said, he inferred that he should have known Zay was going to not do what the play called for. In his PC, McD inferred that Zay was supposed to sit.

 

 

 

Zay shouldn't sit in man coverage. The staff and receiver are being diplomatic, not the QB. 

[Zebrastripes]

19 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Allen's inaccuracy straight up cost us 3 TDs today, including what could have been the game winner at the end.

 

Yes, Clay probably should have caught that ball, but that doesn't change the fact that it was inaccurate and very poorly thrown.

 

I'd further suggest had it been a good throw, it likely would have been caught.

 

 

Does any qb in the league make a perfect throw on that play?

[Augie]

I never thought it was an accuracy problem, it was a communication problem. They will learn and grow together. 

[Jay_Fixit]

20 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Allen's inaccuracy straight up cost us 3 TDs today, including what could have been the game winner at the end.

 

Yes, Clay probably should have caught that ball, but that doesn't change the fact that it was inaccurate and very poorly thrown.

 

I'd further suggest had it been a good throw, it likely would have been caught.

 

 

Horrible post.

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Mango said:

 

Zay shouldn't sit in man coverage. The staff and receiver are being diplomatic, not the QB. 

There was no one on him. I agree that maybe a year or two from now both guys will know what the other will do. But Zay was wide open on the sit, too.

[Adam]

Did Bill Buckner manage to field every single playable ball hit to him?

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Zebrastripes said:

Does any qb in the league make a perfect throw on that play?

Very, very few get in a position to even attempt that throw.

1 minute ago, Adam said:

Did Bill Buckner manage to field every single playable ball hit to him?

Thank you for noting something that has less than zero relevance to the question.

[Zebrastripes]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

Very, very few get in a position to even attempt that throw.

Exactly my point.  He made a great play to give his team a chance.

 

[Magox]

16 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

That's not really true IMO. It was an accurate pass. The pattern called for him to sit. The pass went right to that spot, a couple yards behind Zay. But it's where he was supposed to be. He didn't stop. The "miscommunication" was that Josh didn't know Zay was going to continue to the middle of the endzone which was wide, wide open and a year or two from now they both would know he would break off the pattern. But the fact is Josh threw the ball right where he expected Zay to be and the play called for Zay to be. Zay kept running because he was wide open.

I tend to think this is right.

 

 

[5ths the charm]

26 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Allen's inaccuracy straight up cost us 3 TDs today, including what could have been the game winner at the end.

 

Yes, Clay probably should have caught that ball, but that doesn't change the fact that it was inaccurate and very poorly thrown.

 

I'd further suggest had it been a good throw, it likely would have been caught.

 

 

I'd say the ridiculous amount of penalties, drops by many of the receivers and turnovers were more of an issue.

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, Zebrastripes said:

Does any qb in the league make a perfect throw on that play?

 

Allen did, Rodgers would, Brady as well.

 

decent company

 

 

[Zebrastripes]

Just now, row_33 said:

 

Allen did, Rodgers would, Brady as well.

 

decent company

 

 

Zero chance Brady evades that rush though.  Even in his prime he gets sacked.

[Adam]

7 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Very, very few get in a position to even attempt that throw.

Thank you for noting something that has less than zero relevance to the question.

Just saying that even routine plays are missed at times. I thought the play was pretty routine....

[jahnyc]

Allen is a gamer and very athletic.  It is a world of difference with him in the lineup.  He made some great plays with his legs, made some very good throws and made some very poor throws.  I understand that it may not be on Allen for this particular play and the Bills need to surround him with more talent, but he absolutely will need to become more accurate and consistent in the passing game to have long-term success as a starting QB in the NFL.  I hope the Bills use all necessary resources to help develop Allen's skills, because he really does have a rare combination of talents and tremendous potential.

[row_33]

11 minutes ago, Adam said:

Did Bill Buckner manage to field every single playable ball hit to him?

 

Larry David suffered as well on this kind of play. After meeting Bill.

[Zebrastripes]

2 minutes ago, Adam said:

Just saying that even routine plays are missed at times. I thought the play was pretty routine....

Yes because all QBs avoid that rush and have a strong enough arm to throw acrossed their body on the run as far as he did