Going Through WORST Possible Scenario With Allen

[Mark Vader]

6 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

Good god. People really need to get a grip.

 

There is a zero point zero chance of the bills drafing another qb next year. 0.0.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

The Bills drafted their QB, they are not going to spend another first round pick on another QB.

 

If the Bills add another QB during the offseason, it will be another veteran in free agency.

[Success]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

If Allen isn't out too long it could be good for him to see someone with experience go through game prep.

That’s my hope.  He has had some experience - now he can watch from the sideline with the benefit of that perspective.

 

 

[Ronin]

15 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Props to Bandit, who found this. This is promising: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1058274610002466

 

Methods

The NFL Injury Surveillance System (NFLISS) was reviewed for any UCL injuries of the elbow in quarterbacks from 1994 to 2008, including the type and mechanism of injury, player demographics, method of treatment, and time to return to play.

Results

A total of 10 cases of UCL injuries in quarterbacks were identified starting in 1994. Nine cases were treated nonoperatively and the mean return to play was 26.4 days.

Conclusion

UCL injuries of the elbow are uncommon injuries in professional quarterbacks. This group of overhead athletes can be successfully treated nonoperatively, in contrast to baseball players, who more commonly need surgical reconstruction to return to competitive play. The difference between the 2 groups of overhead athletes is most likely secondary to biomechanics and demand.

 

I saw that, I tried finding out who those QBs were.  Did you find anything?  

 

Either way, that's nearly a month.  At least we can get back to 125 passing yards/game and a passing TD every third game, something that even the worst QB in the league with no NFL future and with no competent WRs should be able to do.  

3 minutes ago, Success said:

That’s my hope.  He has had some experience - now he can watch from the sideline with the benefit of that perspective.

 

 

 

What perspective?  

 

Peterman?  You want him "learning" from Peterman?  What's he supposed to learn?  Seriously.  

 

Same for Andersen.  

 

He'd learn more locked in a room playing Madden.  

Edited October 16, 2018 by TaskersGhost

[Chuck Wagon]

16 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

That's another good point alongside the person that said that is isn't very "process."  

 

So the question then becomes one of whether it would have been better/wiser to build the key parts of the team, like the OL and at least one WR, with 6 picks on days 1 & 2 and grab a QB in next year's draft, or whether it was wiser to turn the first five of those into merely two players, one having been the riskiest QB in the Draft not to mention the most costly in terms of draft picks. 

 

I think that the answer is clear at this point.  The only questioning seems to be why those making this decision didn't seem to think so.  Either way, they've dug themselves an enormous hole to work out of that IMO is impossible.  

 

But hey, they got "their guy."  That's all that matters, right?  Or is it?  

 

 

Bottom line, this regime won't get the opportunity to pick another QB high.  If Allen is a bust, then someone else takes over and makes the pick.

 

It's early to judge, by the same measure you could say "what garbage the Rams / Bears are putting Goff / Trubisky around".  Even the Eagles had nothing outside of Ertz in Carson Wentz's first year.  

 

They simply have to do better with the offense this offseason, no easy fixes are coming the next couple of months.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I honestly can't believe how badly the Bills screwed up quarterback this offseason. Yeah I believe they went after the wrong QB, but even after the draft they messed up not getting a QB they knew could start a year. 

[Success]

2 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

I saw that, I tried finding out who those QBs were.  Did you find anything?  

 

Either way, that's nearly a month.  At least we can get back to 125 passing yards/game and a passing TD every third game, something that even the worst QB in the league with no NFL future and with no competent WRs should be able to do.  

 

What perspective?  

 

Peterman?  You want him "learning" from Peterman?  What's he supposed to learn?  Seriously.  

 

Same for Andersen.  

NOT Peterman - but Andersen is a vet, and he has had success.  He’s not ideal, but there is some value.  

 

And just watching the game after being in the thick of it can help.  He knows better than anyone here what challenges him on the field - it can help just watching how someone else handles those things.. 

[Mark80]

31 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

And as I said is showing NOTHING to for me to say yeah have our QB. Now if you are going to miss all of 2019 as well you better decide to get a QB again. 

 

Yeah, we know you've said it.  You've said it about 1,000 times in every single thread.  Hell, you are probably saying on other teams boards as well.  Don't you get sick of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?  I know I get sick of reading it.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Mark80 said:

 

Yeah, we know you've said it.  You've said it about 1,000 times in every single thread.  Hell, you are probably saying on other teams boards as well.  Don't you get sick of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?  I know I get sick of reading it.

 

allow me: the answer is no.

 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Mark80 said:

 

Yeah, we know you've said it.  You've said it about 1,000 times in every single thread.  Hell, you are probably saying on other teams boards as well.  Don't you get sick of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?  I know I get sick of reading it.

 

Cool there is this thing called an ignore button. Just click it and your problem is solved 

[Ronin]

9 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

Bottom line, this regime won't get the opportunity to pick another QB high.  If Allen is a bust, then someone else takes over and makes the pick.

 

It's early to judge, by the same measure you could say "what garbage the Rams / Bears are putting Goff / Trubisky around".  Even the Eagles had nothing outside of Ertz in Carson Wentz's first year.  

 

They simply have to do better with the offense this offseason, no easy fixes are coming the next couple of months.

 

Right, so it's wash/rinse/repeat.  At some point we have to worry about the team moving despite what the Pegulas say.  Older fans are falling off and people are leaving Buffalo and the region in drover, indigenous types anyway.  The fanbase is shrinking.  At some point, unless extended winning rears its head soon, IMO this small-market is in trouble despite efforts by the Pegulas.  

 

Maybe I'm off but it takes more than "loyal fans" to keep a team.  The NFL has an economic model and Buffalo no longer fits it despite what we think.  I'd be concerned, and incompetence on the field and in the front office cannot possibly help the overall situation.  

 

Agree with you on no QB high unless they pull a Watkins.  Not sure I see that happening, as high as they are on trying to fit the Peterman square into the round hole, you'd have to think that one way or another they'll try ten times harder to fit Allen into the same hole.  Drafting another would conflict with that.  

 

Either way, they don't have enough resources to build up the team prior to a crescendo of terminal criticism forcing them out.  Think about it, they need a complete OL overhaul, WRs at all spots, a RB now (should have looked into trading Shady before last or this season when he had some value), and even a TE not to mention backup QBs too.  

 

We'd literally be better off offensively as an expansion franchise.  Then of course there are defensive needs on top of that.  Kyle's on the cusp of retirement, Lorax is too,  and Hughes is a free agent after next season.  

 

There's no way on earth that they turn this team into a perennial winner by 2020.  At this point they'll be lucky if Allen's "the one" and doesn't contribute the starting QB spot to the list of needs too rendering the offense a complete overhaul.  

Edited October 16, 2018 by TaskersGhost

[Fadingpain]

1 hour ago, McBean said:

You feel better?

Why don't you voice your frustration at the Bills, and not BuffaloBaumer?

He didn't create this mess.  The Bills did.

 

I find the many fans here who would enthusiastically stand and die on the myriad mistakes that comprise Bills Mountain to be really strange and confusing, though interesting.

 

 

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

Ife he needs the surgery i dont see HOW the Bills cannot take a QB early in the draft. 

If that's true, his injury could be the greatest piece of dumb luck this organization has enjoyed in a long time.

 

Especially if he is going to have that surgery and miss substantial time, if not the rest of the season.  I don't know how long he might be out.

 

If that's the case, and we are looking at a QB tandem of Nate and the Old Man, we may not win another game.

That's perfect for drafting a QB.

Let's just pray the kid in Oregon comes out.

 

 

[Ronin]

16 minutes ago, Success said:

NOT Peterman - but Andersen is a vet, and he has had success.  He’s not ideal, but there is some value.  

 

And just watching the game after being in the thick of it can help.  He knows better than anyone here what challenges him on the field - it can help just watching how someone else handles those things.. 

 

I can agree to disagree on the basis that we have different standards.  

 

Here's Andersen's career stats;  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00.htm

 

He had one season of success as you state it, but against an incredibly soft schedule, one of the easiest in the league that season.  In his only four games against good teams he played poorly that season.  

 

He had absolutely no success of which to speak of, by any standard, otherwise. 

 

Once again McBeane have dropped the ball and caused a turnover.  

Edited October 16, 2018 by TaskersGhost

[Fadingpain]

56 minutes ago, COTC said:

It’s unfortunate, however typical.

 

If you don’t like irresponsible leadership mixed with bad luck then I suggest finding a different team. 

 

This franchise just spins its wheels with excuses. 

 

Its primary concern is profit. Winning is not a priority. 

 

 

Traditionally under Owner #1, that was quite true.

 

With Owner #2, don't think so.

We definitely spin our wheels and go nowhere, but I am not sure Pegula is focusing on profit as Wilson was.

 

I do think he really wants to win and the cost of running a successful organization is a secondary concern.  His problem isn't being cheap, it's being a clueless, very low information sports fan, and he is taking it upon himself to personally interview and hire the people who run his football team. 

That's a bad practice that needs to end.  

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

RB lol

 

You can literally find capable RBs in the mid to late rounds on a yearly basis. Taking a QB high doesn’t prevent you from addressing any of those positions.

The Bills have focused on a running game and defense for so long, and completely neglected the QB position that I think a lot of Bills fans think that is where the sport of football is in 2018.

 

As I watch good teams around the league, they seem to be playing a different game than the Bills.  

 

We are like 20 years behind the times, if not more, and our HC fits right into that problem.

 

Someone who has Pegula's ear needs to sit down with him and steer him in the right direction and where the game is heading in the 21s century, b/c he doesn't seem to understand that himself.

 

 

3 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

I can agree to disagree on the basis that we have different standards.  

 

Here's Andersen's career stats;  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00.htm

 

He had one season of success as you state it, but against an incredibly soft schedule, one of the easiest in the league that season.  In his only four games against good teams he played poorly that season.  

 

He had absolutely no success of which to speak of, by any standard, otherwise. 

 

Once again McBeane have dropped the ball and caused a turnover.  

And on top of it, he's 67 years old!
 

Too old!

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, colin said:

 

eli may be there, frankly if he's there for a trade i'd get him now

 

immediately  followed by the headline ‘Eli Manning pulls a Vonte’

Edited October 16, 2018 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[stony]

16 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said:

It’s football. It’s a mans game. What part of being inexperienced caused that injury?

 

Cripes.

Absolutely nothing.  And the people whining about it being a late hit should probably watch baseball.  

[Ronin]

18 minutes ago, Success said:

NOT Peterman - but Andersen is a vet, and he has had success.  He’s not ideal, but there is some value.  

 

And just watching the game after being in the thick of it can help.  He knows better than anyone here what challenges him on the field - it can help just watching how someone else handles those things.. 

 

As I've pointed out, his success was tremendously limited, essentially to as single season and exclusively against non-winning teams.  That was in '07, he had no success by any standards otherwise. 

 

If he starts people will be slamming him just as much as they are Peterman at this point.  I don't think having Andersen on the sidelines whispering into Allen's ear is going to help matters.  

 

Let's be frank, the move to acquire Andersen is a grasping-at-straws attempt by McBeane to CTA.  It too will fall short as they entire end-of-tenure damage-control mode.  

[Success]

1 minute ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

I can agree to disagree on the basis that we have different standards.  

 

Here's Andersen's career stats;  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00.htm

 

He had one season of success as you state it, but against an incredibly soft schedule, one of the easiest in the league that season.  In his only four games against good teams he played poorly that season.  

 

He had absolutely no success of which to speak of otherwise. 

 

Once again McBeane have dropped the ball and caused a turnover.  

Well, I’m definitely not happy with the QB situation.  I’m just usually a keg is half-full kind of guy.

 

I do remember Andersen’s good season.  The schedule was soft, but he had some games that were lights out.  I always found it strange that none of that carried over, even with tougher competition. At the time, lots of fans here wanted him to be a Bill.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

16 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

There's no way on earth that they turn this team into a perennial winner by 2020. 

 

he said with ABSOLUTE certainty.

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

7 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

I can agree to disagree on the basis that we have different standards.  

 

Here's Andersen's career stats;  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00.htm

 

He had one season of success as you state it, but against an incredibly soft schedule, one of the easiest in the league that season.  In his only four games against good teams he played poorly that season.  

 

He had absolutely no success of which to speak of, by any standard, otherwise. 

 

Once again McBeane have dropped the ball and caused a turnover.  

 

Where are you getting this crazy standard for QB success?

 

DA has a career passer rating of 71.  You know how amazing that looks in comparison to what they’ve been putting out there?  

 

 

[benderbender]

1 hour ago, colin said:

if he's hurt to start the year, we'll bring in a bigger time vet qb

 

if he's not, we'll bring in a cheaper one

 

eli may be there, frankly if he's there for a trade i'd get him now

Eli is your prize? Wow. Let’s not set the bar too low

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

So, you didn't like the pick?

At least 80% of the board didn't like the pick so that's not a shocker.  Probably even closer to 90%. Of course after the Vikings game 99% of the board said they liked the pick. It probably stands around 50/50 now i guess.

Peterson or Anderson, I highly doubt it matters at this point. Anderson through 2 INTs in each of the last two games he started. And that was two seasons ago. Got to imagine his skill set has only declined considerably since then. Did he at least go through a full training camp this past off-season?

[Ronin]

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Where are you getting this crazy standard for QB success?

 

DA has a career passer rating of 71.  You know how amazing that looks in comparison to what they’ve been putting out there?  

 

 

 

Good point, it's all relative.  Lower the bar and you're on your way to the Super Bowl.  

 

[Fred Clause]

3 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

And as I said is showing NOTHING to for me to say yeah have our QB. Now if you are going to miss all of 2019 as well you better decide to get a QB again. 

Good thing you weren’t with the colts, you would have cut Manning by the 7 th game ...

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Fred Clause said:

Good thing you weren’t with the colts, you would have cut Manning by the 7 th game ...

 

Was Manning possibly facing a surgery that would end this season and 2019 season after GAME 7. 

 

Did Manning also do nothing in a weak NCAA Conference?

Edited October 16, 2018 by MAJBobby

[Fred Clause]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 

Was Manning possibly facing a surgery that would end this season and 2019 season?

Not the point, and his injury happened on a play where most of the fools on this board complained he wasn’t doing or wasn’t able to do, standing in the pocket, delivering a fantastic strike down field. Injury could have happened to anyone, and was a cheap shot that should have been penalized. Point is, you would have cut Manning as a rookie, no denying that. The position that demands the most patience for developing and you don’t understand that...

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

16 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Good point, it's all relative.  Lower the bar and you're on your way to the Super Bowl.  

 

Haha haha Super Bowl.... that’s cute 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Fred Clause said:

Not the point, and his injury happened on a play where most of the fools on this board complained he wasn’t doing or wasn’t able to do, standing in the pocket, delivering a fantastic strike down field. Injury could have happened to anyone, and was a cheap shot that should have been penalized. Point is, you would have cut Manning as a rookie, no denying that. The position that demands the most patience for developing and you don’t understand that...

 

100% the point. If you read my original comment of If Allen needs Tommy John surgery And is out for this year and Next. Bills should ABSOLUTELY draft a QB early. 

 

A major Raw QB now put 1.5 years behind in development, wheb he was going to need at least a year to develop anyway isnt what you hang your hat on. Specially when he wasnt that good in a weak NCAA Conference to begin with. 

 

There is NOTHING at that point to hang your hat on that you have a QB

[BuffaloBaumer]

53 minutes ago, Fred Clause said:

Good thing you weren’t with the colts, you would have cut Manning by the 7 th game ...

 

Manning was making throws all over the place his rookie season, amazing throws. He had a bunch of ints but you could see he was something special. I have seen nothing from Allen so far other than 2 quarters of 1 game. If I had to make a wager, I would say that he is not even on the team at the end of his rookie contract.

[FearLess Price]

3 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Unfortunately, I don't think that anyone "wants a new team," we're all Bills fans.  But at some point you have to ask yourself how much time you want to devote to merely financially supporting a team without much coming back to you.  Don't you think.  

 

No one likes a loser, particularly fans of a loser.  But if you have people in charge at the top two or there levels that are clueless as to turn it into a winner, then your choices are to support a loser or simply start paying less attention.  

 

You said that their primary concern is profit?  Is that your concern too?  ... namely their (the Pegulas) profit?  ... or do you have other concerns, like winning and at minimum some level of basic competence on the field?  

 

If your concern is not their concern, are you contributing to their concern?  If so, then can't we say that you're part of the problem?  I mean hell, if they have everything that they want after bilking us fans, why should they alter their means of approach?  Seriously, why should they if their goals have been met?  

 

Of course all the "tough guy" fans & posters here will tell anyone thinking like that that they're not a real fan, to which my reply is that a real fan expects and demands competence and isn't satisfied with anything less.  

 

I mean if being a fan is merely contributing to the profits of the owners, then no, I'm not a fan I guess since I don't give a crap about the Peguals financial situation in that regard, I care about competent play on the field and a reason to be proud of at least something in our region socially speaking.  

 

If being a fan means expecting, yea demanding competence, and being completely dissatisfied with incompetence, then I'm a fan.  So I suppose it depends upon perspective.  

 

As I tell people, although I don't go to games anywhere close to regularly, I'd rather go tailgate and watch the game from the lot than contribute to the owners' goals while getting nothing that I want in exchange.  But hey, as long as there are enough people that equate fandom to simply being financial cattle to be harvested, then there's not much reason for positive changes, is there?  

 

Facts. You cant keep it that real here tho. 

 

 

 

This board is for name calling, petty arguments, hot takes & ***** posts, dont you know anything

 

move along now!

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Vader]

8 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

At least 80% of the board didn't like the pick so that's not a shocker.  Probably even closer to 90%. Of course after the Vikings game 99% of the board said they liked the pick. It probably stands around 50/50 now i guess.

Peterson or Anderson, I highly doubt it matters at this point. Anderson through 2 INTs in each of the last two games he started. And that was two seasons ago. Got to imagine his skill set has only declined considerably since then. Did he at least go through a full training camp this past off-season?

Yes, I know a lot of fans here did not like the pick.

 

Although I think more and more fans have accepted Josh Allen and think he has good potential.

 

Personally, I liked the pick.

[twist_to_open]

We may have wiffed on Allen, but we found a gem in Peterman, just give him some time to develop, you'll see.

[Fred Clause]

17 hours ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

 

Manning was making throws all over the place his rookie season, amazing throws. He had a bunch of ints but you could see he was something special. I have seen nothing from Allen so far other than 2 quarters of 1 game. If I had to make a wager, I would say that he is not even on the team at the end of his rookie contract.

Dumbest post of the year, good job ? 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

21 hours ago, dickleyjones said:

 

naaah, there are many worse scenarios possible. nice hyperbole though.

For example, Allen needing surgery, and drawing the surgical team of Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, and Dr. Howard?

[dave mcbride]

20 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

I can agree to disagree on the basis that we have different standards.  

 

Here's Andersen's career stats;  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00.htm

 

He had one season of success as you state it, but against an incredibly soft schedule, one of the easiest in the league that season.  In his only four games against good teams he played poorly that season.  

 

He had absolutely no success of which to speak of, by any standard, otherwise. 

 

Once again McBeane have dropped the ball and caused a turnover.  

He played well in 2014 in backup duty, and it wasn't that long ago. So there is that! https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AndeDe00/gamelog/2014/

[buffaloboyinATL]

Maybe this becomes a good thing for him. Most of us have been saying he needs to take some time learning how to be a pro behind a veteran QB. This may be his opportunity, and he will hopefully be better prepared the next time he takes the field.

[hondo in seattle]

11 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

Maybe this becomes a good thing for him. Most of us have been saying he needs to take some time learning how to be a pro behind a veteran QB. This may be his opportunity, and he will hopefully be better prepared the next time he takes the field.

 

I was thinking the same.

There are advantages to learning from the bench.  There are advantages to learning with live game-time reps.  Allen gets both.  

 

It looked like Allen might have been overwhelmed on the field.  So we've hit the pause button and he gets time to reflect and learn from a vet.  

 

 

[nedboy7]

22 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

And ABSOLUTELY the reason the heat on McD seat gets warmer as the season goes on rightfully so. 

 

You are crushing it lately. I’m a majbobby fan now. 

[cba fan]

22 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Unfortunately, I don't think that anyone "wants a new team," we're all Bills fans.  But at some point you have to ask yourself how much time you want to devote to merely financially supporting a team without much coming back to you.  Don't you think.  

 

No one likes a loser, particularly fans of a loser.  But if you have people in charge at the top two or there levels that are clueless as to turn it into a winner, then your choices are to support a loser or simply start paying less attention.  

 

You said that their primary concern is profit?  Is that your concern too?  ... namely their (the Pegulas) profit?  ... or do you have other concerns, like winning and at minimum some level of basic competence on the field?  

 

If your concern is not their concern, are you contributing to their concern?  If so, then can't we say that you're part of the problem?  I mean hell, if they have everything that they want after bilking us fans, why should they alter their means of approach?  Seriously, why should they if their goals have been met?  

 

Of course all the "tough guy" fans & posters here will tell anyone thinking like that that they're not a real fan, to which my reply is that a real fan expects and demands competence and isn't satisfied with anything less.  

 

I mean if being a fan is merely contributing to the profits of the owners, then no, I'm not a fan I guess since I don't give a crap about the Peguals financial situation in that regard, I care about competent play on the field and a reason to be proud of at least something in our region socially speaking.  

 

If being a fan means expecting, yea demanding competence, and being completely dissatisfied with incompetence, then I'm a fan.  So I suppose it depends upon perspective.  

 

As I tell people, although I don't go to games anywhere close to regularly, I'd rather go tailgate and watch the game from the lot than contribute to the owners' goals while getting nothing that I want in exchange.  But hey, as long as there are enough people that equate fandom to simply being financial cattle to be harvested, then there's not much reason for positive changes, is there?  

Good info you provide here and I agree with most of it. Good questions.

 

I hear this often that many fans would like to just tailgate and stay in lot to watch game on TV.

 

I don't get that. Tickets for Bills are not expensive and you can get real good deals. You do not need to drink all game long and eat all game long as you can fill up at the tailgate. I would do both and just be frugal inside stadium and use that as my protest of a poor product I guess.

[PolishDave]

40 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I was thinking the same.

There are advantages to learning from the bench.  There are advantages to learning with live game-time reps.  Allen gets both.  

 

It looked like Allen might have been overwhelmed on the field.  So we've hit the pause button and he gets time to reflect and learn from a vet.  

 

 

 

You think a few games on the bench are going to make him a decent NFL starting QB?

 

I don't.   I think being thrown in the deep end of the pool without a lifejacket will make him either learn to swim or drown.   Either way Bills know which direction to go after this year.   But, only if he has enough playing time.

[Rocbillsfan1]

23 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Ife he needs the surgery i dont see HOW the Bills cannot take a QB early in the draft. 

Just stop posting.