The Draft Network's Jon Ledyard Eviscerates Allen’s Week 2 Performance

[Doc Brown]

2 minutes ago, PeterDude said:

 

Was Mayfield's game last night a typical rookie game?  Why does it look so different from Allen's rookie game?

Because he was the 1st quarterback taken in the draft while our guy was the third.

[BuffaloRush]

48 minutes ago, PeterDude said:

 

Was Mayfield's game last night a typical rookie game?  Why does it look so different from Allen's rookie game?

 

Darnold’s game looked like a rookie QB

[Doc]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRush said:

Jon Ledyard = The Josh Allen Of NFL Analysts

 

Ledyard wishes.

1 hour ago, BuffaloRush said:

Darnold’s game looked like a rookie QB

And Mayfield's game looked like Darnold's first game.  We'll see where things shake out.

[Billsfan1972]

I'm watching Darnold and we see good & bad.....  Typical rookie and will see how he grows. 

 

Seems other rookies missing passes or not throwing to open receivers or making the right read is okay.  But if you have a hate on for JA, then everything is a bad mistake. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

I have to admit his inaccuracy issues are on another level. A couple of those throws left you with your jaw open wondering how he could miss so badly on what seems like a routine throw. 

 

I think I have seen some similar throws from Blake Bortles in the past and it looks like has perhaps developed into at least a decent QB so I do have some hope for Allen still. But man Jacksonville has had some serious patience with Bortles. Will we have the same with Allen? Especially if our defense is not on the same level as Jacksonville's?

[oldmanfan]

Seven pages on this.  I looked this guy's name up on Google.  From what I can find, he has some experience as a high school football coach.  Is there anything else in his background I'm missing to suggest his opinion has validity?  Or would it be like me writing a similar column on say Darnold, and expecting Jets fans to take it seriously just because I watch football a lot?

[MAJBobby]

Waiting for his Praise of Darnolds game Thursday 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

47 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Seven pages on this.  I looked this guy's name up on Google.  From what I can find, he has some experience as a high school football coach.  Is there anything else in his background I'm missing to suggest his opinion has validity?  Or would it be like me writing a similar column on say Darnold, and expecting Jets fans to take it seriously just because I watch football a lot?

 

It would be like you writing a similar column after you've spent several years presenting yourself as a football expert on various blogs and dredging up controversy to build followers and clicks.

[C.Biscuit97]

52 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Seven pages on this.  I looked this guy's name up on Google.  From what I can find, he has some experience as a high school football coach.  Is there anything else in his background I'm missing to suggest his opinion has validity?  Or would it be like me writing a similar column on say Darnold, and expecting Jets fans to take it seriously just because I watch football a lot?

Mel Kiper, one of the biggest Allen fans, never played/ coached/ was in a front office in any level.  

[MAJBobby]

5 hours ago, Fred Clause said:

Because the Jets prepared for Tyrod, and Mayfield was the number 1 pick which we had no chance of getting. He also has better weapons and a more stable offensive line, so what’s your point?

Because Mayfield is a more refined QB at this point of his career and that is what make him the No1 overall and Allen No 7. Ooo  and has better weapons. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by MAJBobby

[SoCal Deek]

Where’s Ryan Leaf when we need him?

[DCOrange]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Seven pages on this.  I looked this guy's name up on Google.  From what I can find, he has some experience as a high school football coach.  Is there anything else in his background I'm missing to suggest his opinion has validity?  Or would it be like me writing a similar column on say Darnold, and expecting Jets fans to take it seriously just because I watch football a lot?

 

Ledyard has been a draft analyst for awhile now and has worked for a lot of reputable publications and now runs his own NFL Draft-focused website. You don't have to have played in the NFL to understand football. If you personally broke the film down and wrote in-depth articles about what players do and don't do correctly for yeras, then yes, it would be like him.

[C.Biscuit97]

22 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Where’s Ryan Leaf when we need him?

He’s the Bills starting qb. 

 

JK

[oldmanfan]

49 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

 

Ledyard has been a draft analyst for awhile now and has worked for a lot of reputable publications and now runs his own NFL Draft-focused website. You don't have to have played in the NFL to understand football. If you personally broke the film down and wrote in-depth articles about what players do and don't do correctly for yeras, then yes, it would be like him.

Ok.  It just seems like there's a huge number of these guys and I'm not sure whether they really understand what they're seeing.

[PeterDude]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Ok.  It just seems like there's a huge number of these guys and I'm not sure whether they really understand what they're seeing.

 

I think some of them understand what they are seeing better than egotistical coaches who work in the league.

[Bangarang]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Seven pages on this.  I looked this guy's name up on Google.  From what I can find, he has some experience as a high school football coach.  Is there anything else in his background I'm missing to suggest his opinion has validity?  Or would it be like me writing a similar column on say Darnold, and expecting Jets fans to take it seriously just because I watch football a lot?

 

The guy clearly puts in time breaking down the film and gives his reasoning behind his opinion. You don’t have to be a coach or player to have a valid opinion. I know, he doesn’t like the guy we hope is our next franchise QB so we immediately have to discredit him. Unless of course he says something bad about a team/player we don’t like. Then his opinion is valid. ?

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

The guy clearly puts in time breaking down the film and gives his reasoning behind his opinion. You don’t have to be a coach or player to have a valid opinion. I know, he doesn’t like the guy we hope is our next franchise QB so we immediately have to discredit him. Unless of course he says something bad about a team/player we don’t like. Then his opinion is valid. ?

I asked the question so I could determine how much weight to give his opinion

[Bangarang]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I asked the question so I could determine how much weight to give his opinion

 

Thats my point, it’s irrelevant. If he makes valid arguments and shows his reasoning then should it matter whether he’s played or coached? 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Bangarang said:

 

Thats my point, it’s irrelevant. If he makes valid arguments and shows his reasoning then should it matter whether he’s played or coached? 

I think you should have a foundation of knowledge to make the kinds of interpretations he and others make.  I wouldn't go to say a dentist if I had a heart condition, I want someone that's been there and done that

 

I know Mel Kiper starter an empire  doing this stuff.  It still puzzles me as to how and why.

[Bangarang]

23 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I think you should have a foundation of knowledge to make the kinds of interpretations he and others make.  I wouldn't go to say a dentist if I had a heart condition, I want someone that's been there and done that

 

I know Mel Kiper starter an empire  doing this stuff.  It still puzzles me as to how and why.

 

It doesn’t take a former player or coach to study football concepts and use that knowledge to break down All-22. Would people be this quick to discredit him if he praised Allen’s performance? Why are people so quick to attack the person rather than his opinion and logic? Are his opinions reasonable? Does he back them up logically? 

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

It doesn’t take a former player or coach to study football concepts and use that knowledge to break down All-22. Would people be this quick to discredit him if he praised Allen’s performance? Why are people so quick to attack the person rather than his opinion and logic? Are his opinions reasonable? Does he back them up logically? 

Can I just ask a question without being told I'm trying to attack the guy?  

 

I could sit in my basement all day and night for the next year looking at film, but if I'l not sure what the OC had in mind with the play call I don't think my analysis would mean much.  Allen missed some passes.  Rookie QBs do that.  He missed some reads.  Rookie QBs do that.  Instead of attacking me for asking a question, would it not be reasonable to ask whether the kind of analysis done on a rookie QB in his first NFL game is a bit over the top?

 

 

[Doc]

Who in the hell is Jon Ledyard?

[Bangarang]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Can I just ask a question without being told I'm trying to attack the guy?  

 

I could sit in my basement all day and night for the next year looking at film, but if I'l not sure what the OC had in mind with the play call I don't think my analysis would mean much.  Allen missed some passes.  Rookie QBs do that.  He missed some reads.  Rookie QBs do that.  Instead of attacking me for asking a question, would it not be reasonable to ask whether the kind of analysis done on a rookie QB in his first NFL game is a bit over the top?

 

 

 

You can ask whatever questions you want and you can let the answers to those questions affect your opinion of him. Personally, it doesn’t matter to me whether anyone takes him seriously or not.

 

Do I think it’s over the top? No. It is what it is. This person is calling it as he sees it. 

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

You can ask whatever questions you want and you can let the answers to those questions affect your opinion of him. Personally, it doesn’t matter to me whether anyone takes him seriously or not.

 

Do I think it’s over the top? No. It is what it is. This person is calling it as he sees it. 

I would say calling a guy in his first game utterly dreadful is over the top.  To each his own.

[TheFunPolice]

Allen threw for 245 in his first game.

 

I know yards are not a perfect stat, but what they do tell you is whether a QB is being a QB: i.e. getting the ball from his hands into the skill position players' hands.

 

For comparison, Tyrod Taylor played 15 games for the Bills last season as a veteran QB with years of experience in the league, including 3 years as a starter.

 

Taylor threw for more than 245 yards 3 times in 15 games. Allen hit that mark in his first start against a very good defense.

 

but __________ but____________ but____________!

 

Save your breath. All the "buts" apply to every QB who has ever played the position. There's a cancelling of "buts." What helps one guy helps another guy too. Garbage time happens for all QBs. Teams playing softer coverage happens for all QBs. Injuries happen to all teams.

 

If you want to get all bothered and start blabbering "but, but, but!" because you cannot accept that Allen did okay (not amazing but okay) in his first start and was about as effective as Tyrod was last season already, then consider this: Tyrod had Wood and Incognito on the OL whereas Allen has a mishmash of journeyman who rotate in and are all horrible.

 

But yeah, let's pile on Josh Allen for some unknown reason. Darnold was going to the Hall of Fame last week and he just looked like a scared kid last night.

 

There is this need in the sports media to relentlessly bash Josh Allen for some reason. Is it all the retweets from HS? Seriously. It's insane the level of desire people seem to have to bury this kid before his career even begins.

Edited September 21, 2018 by TheFunPolice

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

You can ask whatever questions you want and you can let the answers to those questions affect your opinion of him. Personally, it doesn’t matter to me whether anyone takes him seriously or not.

 

Do I think it’s over the top? No. It is what it is. This person is calling it as he sees it. 

You don't think his analysis is over the top? When he says things like-

 

...But Josh Allen was utterly dreadful on Sunday. Brutally bad in a myriad of ways.

That's hyperbole. Basically clickbait for people who want their opinion of Allen reinforced. His analysis of the game is similarly colored, called the throw to Foster on the crossing route 'late' and said it was 'open throughout the game' when neither was true. These 'analysts' just know if they write a bunch of overly negative reviews it will generate interest...I'm surprised everyone hasn't caught on yet.

 

[DCOrange]

36 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

You don't think his analysis is over the top? When he says things like-

 

...But Josh Allen was utterly dreadful on Sunday. Brutally bad in a myriad of ways.

That's hyperbole. Basically clickbait for people who want their opinion of Allen reinforced. His analysis of the game is similarly colored, called the throw to Foster on the crossing route 'late' and said it was 'open throughout the game' when neither was true. These 'analysts' just know if they write a bunch of overly negative reviews it will generate interest...I'm surprised everyone hasn't caught on yet.

 

It's not really. That's why he was the lowest rated QB in the league in ESPN's QBR and PFF's weekly grades (I'm pretty sure he was...if my math is correct, they gave him a 39.04 for Week 2.) For reference, Tyrod is currently the lowest rated QB in the league at a 46.9 on PFF; Allen wasn't even close to that in Week 2.

Edited September 21, 2018 by DCOrange

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

It's not really. That's why he was the lowest rated QB in the league in ESPN's QBR and PFF's weekly grades (I'm pretty sure he was...if my math is correct, they gave him a 39.04 for Week 2.

I don't put a ton of weight on either of those metrics...I realize others do, that's cool, whatever. Point being you can still be the 'lowest rated QB' without being 'utterly dreadful' and 'brutally bad', of which an objective observer would have to conclude he was neither. He played like a rookie, very similar to Darnold against the Fins. I'd also argue Wilson had a game roughly equivalent to Allen. Hyperbole imo.

[Fred Clause]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

 

You can ask whatever questions you want and you can let the answers to those questions affect your opinion of him. Personally, it doesn’t matter to me whether anyone takes him seriously or not.

 

Do I think it’s over the top? No. It is what it is. This person is calling it as he sees it. 

Accept he see’s it with a bias of wanting the player to fail. And when you let that affect your opinion as an anylist, then the opinion is hardly worth the paper it’s written on.

[Bangarang]

2 minutes ago, Fred Clause said:

Accept he see’s it with a bias of wanting the player to fail. And when you let that affect your opinion as an anylist, then the opinion is hardly worth the paper it’s written on.

 

Perhaps I missed it but when/how did he indicate he wants Allen to fail?

52 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

You don't think his analysis is over the top? When he says things like-

 

...But Josh Allen was utterly dreadful on Sunday. Brutally bad in a myriad of ways.

That's hyperbole. Basically clickbait for people who want their opinion of Allen reinforced. His analysis of the game is similarly colored, called the throw to Foster on the crossing route 'late' and said it was 'open throughout the game' when neither was true. These 'analysts' just know if they write a bunch of overly negative reviews it will generate interest...I'm surprised everyone hasn't caught on yet.

 

 

Again, I don’t think it’s over the top. 

[Fred Clause]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

 

Perhaps I missed it but when/how did he indicate he wants Allen to fail?

Because that was his pre draft prediction. 

[Bangarang]

Just now, Fred Clause said:

Because that was his pre draft prediction. 

 

Do you have a link? I’m curious to see what he thought about Allen pre-draft.

 

Obviously if Allen sucks then that will make him right. Saying Allen will suck wasn’t some outlandish prediction though. There were even a lot of people here who hated him as a prospect and didn’t want him. Are you just assuming he’s rooting against Allen simply because he didn’t think he will be good?

[Mat68]

I cant stand the double talk.  Allen played poor and Darnold looks like a franchise Qb.  Get out here.  Pretty similar stat lines.  The only difference, the Jets are playing defense and running the ball effectively.  

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Again, I don’t think it’s over the top. 

I just think he's clearly got an angle. I'm not real upset over it. For example, I thought Mayfield played well but I'm not crowning him savior or anything, he did a fine job/mixed bag imo. He made some good throws and some bad ones, and I thought he got a lot of help from his receivers. I think that's pretty objective. Ledyard goes out of his way (IMO) to call out a ton of what Allen did wrong and focus on what Mayfield did right, so the relative gap in their performances is not reflected in his respective analyses. That's why I say he's being over the top to generate buzz, or pump up his draft analysis or whatever.

[GreggTX]

Hopefully the game will slow down for him. His accuracy may not be fixable. I just can't think of any QB I've seen since the 60's that was able to fix an inability to throw accurately. Hopefully fixing his mechanics will help. A quick mind and good football IQ along with accuracy are essential for an NFL QB to become elite. The rest is just icing on the cake, so to speak. You just can't compromise on those 3 items, IMO.

Edited September 21, 2018 by GreggTX

[DCOrange]

30 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

Do you have a link? I’m curious to see what he thought about Allen pre-draft.

 

Obviously if Allen sucks then that will make him right. Saying Allen will suck wasn’t some outlandish prediction though. There were even a lot of people here who hated him as a prospect and didn’t want him. Are you just assuming he’s rooting against Allen simply because he didn’t think he will be good?

https://thedraftnetwork.com/2018/04/20/ledyards-final-2018-nfl-draft-positional-rankings-quarterbacks/

 

He has Allen ranked as the 5th QB prospect in the link below

[stony]

21 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I just think he's clearly got an angle. I'm not real upset over it. For example, I thought Mayfield played well but I'm not crowning him savior or anything, he did a fine job/mixed bag imo. He made some good throws and some bad ones, and I thought he got a lot of help from his receivers. I think that's pretty objective. Ledyard goes out of his way (IMO) to call out a ton of what Allen did wrong and focus on what Mayfield did right, so the relative gap in their performances is not reflected in his respective analyses. That's why I say he's being over the top to generate buzz, or pump up his draft analysis or whatever.

Allen's going to be a tough grade all season.  For instance, his two longest plays were a missed read where he eventually goes back to Jones, and his inaccurate throw that made Dimarco fall down.  Stat line says 2/2 ~85yds.  A bit misleading, as one might have went for a TD and the other probably has 10-15yds of RAC.  Either way, and as you point out, don't get too bent out of shape over the endless micro-analysis of his play.  

[Bangarang]

13 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

https://thedraftnetwork.com/2018/04/20/ledyards-final-2018-nfl-draft-positional-rankings-quarterbacks/

 

He has Allen ranked as the 5th QB prospect in the link below

 

From what I’ve read, I don’t see that as unreasonable. He seems pretty fair here.

[GoBills808]

Just now, stony said:

Allen's going to be a tough grade all season.  For instance, his two longest plays were a missed read where he eventually goes back to Jones, and his inaccurate throw that made Dimarco fall down.  Stat line says 2/2 ~85yds.  A bit misleading, as one might have went for a TD and the other probably has 10-15yds of RAC.  Either way, and as you point out, don't get too bent out of shape over the endless micro-analysis of his play.  

Yup. Totally fair. But equally fair IMO to point out other QBs, Mayfield included (included, in this instance, because he's the en vogue comparison), can throw inaccurately and get help from receivers. 

 

Allen's deep throw to Jones...he missed the timing for sure. But I can't get on him because he eventually recognized the coverage and made the right decision. Was it underthrown, sure. Was it deliberately underthrown? Don't know, and I'm pretty sure neither does this guy. What I do know is that it takes a certain perspective to label a 60 yard completion a 'mess', and I wonder if it had been another QB/WR combo making that play if he'd have described it similarly. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Thats my point, it’s irrelevant. If he makes valid arguments and shows his reasoning then should it matter whether he’s played or coached? 

 

I got to disagree.  Yes, there are plenty of folks who have good analysis who have not played or coached or who have played or coached only at a low level, HS or college.  But someone's level of knowledge is highly relevant to understanding how likely someone's observations are to be correct and their arguments to be valid. 

 

It's also highly relevant to understand whether someone has "skin in the game" one way or the other.  In the case of Ledyard, he was so vociferous and strident before and after the draft that Allen is a sure-fire bust, its pretty clear he has "skin" in the game of backing that up.  So I feel his analysis should be taken with a huge shaker of salt simply because he's publicly shown cause to doubt his objectivity.