Wasn't Andy Levitre a Bill

[nedboy7]

Most players don’t seem to fit our scheme.  That’s why we are so dominant. We tailor the roster perfectly to our scheme. 

[Bill from NYC]

6 hours ago, hemma said:

 

I remember that game vs the Jets. 

A few bags of sand would have been better.  

 

I think he was released later that week. 

Colon was Brown remains the worst starting OL I have ever seen.

Are you old enough to remember Marcus Spriggs or Greg Jerman?

 

Jerman was SO bad at left tackle that I actually was worried about someone getting killed on the field.

[John from Riverside]

19 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Letting him go was the wrong move by management.

 

It was wrong at the time........because they had plenty of money and had invested a second round pick in him and he was good.    If your early picks pan out and you let them walk without a solid replacement you don't understand how to build.    At the time,  that is what the Bills were.    We all know this now......let's not defend the dumb things they did in the past.

 

It turned into a disaster when the season started and Colin Brown had perhaps the single worst season by a Bills starting OL.    He was literally altering the outcome of games and very possibly the single difference between missing the playoffs versus stealing a very up-for-grabs playoff spot.

 

And in the long run it was wrong because he's been very good for a long time and is still going strong.    

 

And fwiw.........future HOF'er Jason Peters is playing tonight as well.......and there were clowns on here who FOR YEARS swore trading him was the right thing to do.   Part of that argument was the Bills were getting younger with the drafting of Eric Wood........but as I said in response to that......Peters will be playing when Wood was out of the league.

Never understood letting Levitre go

 

We had the money to resign him

He can play multiple postions

While undersized....he was a solid guard

 

There are a lot of moves that former front offices have made that contributed to our drought...this was one of them....along with letting Pat Williams go amongst others

[BillsGuru4]

20 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

You don’t remember the jokes 

 

Levitre gives you wood

Didn't Peters give us Wood?

[MTBill]

I honestly think a lot of the problems we have had (and maybe continue to have with Castillo?) have been with the coaching/scheme.   We had such a revolving door of HC/OC/OLC - so we had a few pretty good linemen who we let go (Peters/Levitre come to mind), however for whatever reason they did not pan out here.

 

We really know zilch about 2018 yet.  We had injuries in the Preseason along with trying some other configurations.  I am sort of hopeful that we're going to see improvement with experience as a group.  I think the offseason changes this season are all pretty well inevitable.  Cordy was going to be an expensive luxury as a 3rd Tackle (who has injury concerns anyways).  Wood had a medical condition show up which forced his hand.  Incognito had a nervous breakdown or something and needs help.

 

We have what we have - and I just hope they jell enough that when we transition to Allen he won't get murdered or develop bad habits due to the OL.

[Big Turk]

20 hours ago, Watkins90 said:

Wasn't he on our team and we just released him?

 

He is the sixth-ranked guard by PFF.

 

We didn't release him, he was an FA and got stupid money for a guard.  Nothing you can do...some team is going to vastly overpay with FA's

[Nanker]

OJ Simpson was a Bill too. What's his rating?

[ColoradoBills]

4 hours ago, BuffaloSol said:

Thin OLine FA next year. He married a buffalo girl, maybe a reunion is in store for the right price?

 

Yep, I looked at the future 2019 OL FAs and it is not all that great.

Factor in teams resigning their own FAs and 31 other teams with potential signings may not leave Bills fans getting the OL

they hoped for even with 90 million.

 

Lets hope Beane can work some magic!

[GreggTX]

21 hours ago, pimp on da' net said:

Did you read the article? 

 

Levitre was not a fit for the system & coming off a 2nd surgery in the off season. The Bills still wanted to keep him but NOT a $8M / year.

 

He was labeled as underperforming with the Titan who in turn released him...the GM's job is to find the talent required for the HC style of play.

 

Plenty of blame for 17 years of futility, but few fans questioned the move at the time. I say let's stick to the more valid criticism if we must go down that path.

[Buffalo86]

Over the years I've come to believe that if a player doesn't fit the Bills' scheme, he's probably pretty good.

[SoTier]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:15 PM, billsbackto81 said:

He was a FA and got a boatload of money from the Titans. Wanted to keep him but it was the right move by management. 

 

Ah, yes.   The Bills ALWAYS want to keep the best young players from the draft or as UDFAs that they develop, but they can't "afford" to keep them, so they let them walk rather than re-sign them or trade them away because the Bills "wouldn't have been able to re-sign them anyway" , and Bills fans applaud Bills management for making "the right move" ... again and again and again. 

 

[SoTier]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:45 PM, pimp on da' net said:

Did you read the article? 

 

Levitre was not a fit for the system & coming off a 2nd surgery in the off season. The Bills still wanted to keep him but NOT a $8M / year.

 

He was labeled as underperforming with the Titan who in turn released him...the GM's job is to find the talent required for the HC style of play.

 

Are you implying that Levitre wasn't healthy?  That seems to be a favorite excuse that some fans make for the Bills' questionable move, but the fact is that Levitre started every Bills game during his four years with the Bills.   He then went on to start 32 more games in 2 seasons with the Titans and another 32 more games in his first 2 seasons with the Falcons.  In fact, the three games that Levitre missed in 2017 were the first 3 games he missed in his entire career ... and he's back to starting for the Falcons once again.  He started 128 straight games for three teams.

 

Most successful teams have a GM who's more than a glorified scout and scapegoat for a string of mostly less than competent HCs, which has been what the Bills have had since Tom Donahoe was fired in 2006 and Russ Brandon took control of the team.

[John from Riverside]

21 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Ah, yes.   The Bills ALWAYS want to keep the best young players from the draft or as UDFAs that they develop, but they can't "afford" to keep them, so they let them walk rather than re-sign them or trade them away because the Bills "wouldn't have been able to re-sign them anyway" , and Bills fans applaud Bills management for making "the right move" ... again and again and again. 

 

Examples?  With this mgt group in place of course.

3 hours ago, Buffalo86 said:

Over the years I've come to believe that if a player doesn't fit the Bills' scheme, he's probably pretty good.

Because so many of those players go on to be pro bowlers for other teams....please feel free to provide examples.

4 hours ago, GreggTX said:

 

Plenty of blame for 17 years of futility, but few fans questioned the move at the time. I say let's stick to the more valid criticism if we must go down that path.

Lets also stick to the moves of current management and not former management.......as it is really not fair to the guys now in place.

[SoTier]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Examples?  With this mgt group in place of course.

 

In 2017, Stephon Gilmore, Robert Woods, and Marquise Goodwin all walked away in FA with McDermott as HC.  Beane traded Sammy Watkins the year before his contract would have expired, and Ronald Darby 2 years into his rookie contract.   In 2018, the Bills failed to re-sign  Preston Brown and Seantrel Henderson, who while only a backup, was better than any of the scrubs the Bills currently have pretending to play LT except for Dion Dawkins.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, SoTier said:

 

In 2017, Stephon Gilmore, Robert Woods, and Marquise Goodwin all walked away in FA

 

I said recent

 

with McDermott as HC.  Beane traded Sammy Watkins the year before his contract would have expired, and Ronald Darby 2 years into his rookie contract. 

 

Sammy Watkins is now with his 3rd team and he did take a very high salary contract.    I personally would not have had a problem with Sammy being on the team but at the time he had a QB throwing to him that was not going to get him the numbers to validate that contract...he then went to a high powered offense who promptly did the same thing and let him go to the Chiefs.

 

Ronald Darby started out great.....then faded....currently he is playing well but he is also playing in the defense that he played well in his rookie year with that DC......the traded of Darby netted amongst other things Horrible Harry......who looks like he could be a pretty good player in his own right.  Sometimes you trade talent at one position to gain talent needed at other positions and this is probably Kyle's last year.   If there is one thing that Beane and McD have seemed to be able to do it is put together a decent secondary.

 

  In 2018, the Bills failed to re-sign  Preston Brown

Preston Brown does not have the range in order to play MLB in this defense.....in this defense he is simply a band aid as a starter.   The bills are moving players out that do not have the strengths to play the McD defense that was played with the panthers......this is why they used a 1st round pick on a MLB that DOES scheme fit the defense in Edmunds.

 

and Seantrel Henderson, who while only a backup, was better than any of the scrubs the Bills currently have pretending to play LT except for Dion Dawkins.

I know that we like to change things that actually happened as time goes on to fit narratives....but the fact is Seantrel was a lazy player when he was not threatened by the play of another player to take his spot AND he actually suffers from a affliction that forces him to take a NFL banned substance in order to be able to play which makes him UNRELIABLE......when you are the GM of a team you have to do what is best for the TEAM not just because some unsilent minority's like a certain player......if you cannot stay on the field....it does not matter how talented you are.

 

At the end of the day....just because bills management doesnt biuld the team the way you like it does not mean they are wrong.....we traded core players for draft picks last year and were STILL COMPETATIVE......we are in the middle of a rebiuld......the team does have a vision and it is obviously working.   Results....all that matters is results.

 

[billsbackto81]

9 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Ah, yes.   The Bills ALWAYS want to keep the best young players from the draft or as UDFAs that they develop, but they can't "afford" to keep them, so they let them walk rather than re-sign them or trade them away because the Bills "wouldn't have been able to re-sign them anyway" , and Bills fans applaud Bills management for making "the right move" ... again and again and again. 

 

Armchair GMs always look at situations like this with a blank check and no future repercussions. They could afford him, they chose not to. Andy was a very good, not stellar Guard. Never an All Pro or Pro Bowl if I recall correctly. To his credit just like Preston Brown he was dependable and always in the line up. But there was no way the FO was going to give him 8 per year because of his steady play and dependability coming off a knee scope to boot. Weren't they trying to work out a deal with their Pro Bowl/ All Pro Safety at the time? Maybe he should have got the contract the Saints gave up for him? Woof! That was a bullet dodged right there.

Hindsight is beautiful...

[Fan in Chicago]

21 hours ago, BuffaloSol said:

Thin OLine FA next year. He married a buffalo girl, maybe a reunion is in store for the right price?

I wouldnt mind trading a low pick for him NOW, 

[iinii]

20 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Are you old enough to remember Marcus Spriggs or Greg Jerman?

 

Jerman was SO bad at left tackle that I actually was worried about someone getting killed on the field.

Mike Williams was THE bust. 

18 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Never understood letting Levitre go

 

We had the money to resign him

He can play multiple postions

While undersized....he was a solid guard

 

There are a lot of moves that former front offices have made that contributed to our drought...this was one of them....along with letting Pat Williams go amongst others

Pat Williams was great. Losing him was the beginning of the dark state.

[bobobonators]

17 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Yep, I looked at the future 2019 OL FAs and it is not all that great.

Factor in teams resigning their own FAs and 31 other teams with potential signings may not leave Bills fans getting the OL

they hoped for even with 90 million.

 

Lets hope Beane can work some magic!

 

Trade down in 1st round and get an extra second round pick. 

 

Draft 2 OL with the first 3 picks. 

[bobobonators]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

Armchair GMs always look at situations like this with a blank check and no future repercussions. They could afford him, they chose not to. Andy was a very good, not stellar Guard. Never an All Pro or Pro Bowl if I recall correctly. To his credit just like Preston Brown he was dependable and always in the line up. But there was no way the FO was going to give him 8 per year because of his steady play and dependability coming off a knee scope to boot. Weren't they trying to work out a deal with their Pro Bowl/ All Pro Safety at the time? Maybe he should have got the contract the Saints gave up for him? Woof! That was a bullet dodged right there.

Hindsight is beautiful...

 

If I was GM id dedicate a huge portion of the salary cap to the lines. Id never draft a corner, safety, rb, LB, or TE in the first round until my Oline and Dline were set. A great Oline makes an average QB better by giving him more time, it makes an avg RB better by giving him wider lanes, and it makes receivers better bc they have that much more time to get open. 

 

A great DL makes the entire defense better for the exact opposite of what was stated above. The best corner in the world cant cover even an avg wide receiver if the QB has 5-6 seconds to throw the ball. Great Linebackers are useless when there are gaping holes at the LOS and they have to make tackles 8yds down field. 

 

Its a simple saying but it really does start at the LOS. Yes, you need talented skill players to make plays, too, but man the overall talent of the team increases exponentially when the o-line and d-lines are dominant. 

 

Unfortunately, i think a lot of GM’s are caught in that trap of wanting to sign or draft the exciting skill players that bring speed and size and generate buzz in the media. It’s harder to get excited about overweight linemen that are slow and look like they just ate a small calf. Everyone wants to drive a Ferrari around; but its the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry that will ultimately get you where you need to go everyday for years. 

 

Id retain proven good/great o-linemen and d-linemen at all costs. 

[Wayne Arnold]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:11 PM, Watkins90 said:

Wasn't he on our team and we just released him?

 

He is the sixth-ranked guard by PFF.

 

I remember a time when PFF graded Demetress Bell as one of the best Left Tackles in the NFL.

[Thurman#1]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:15 PM, billsbackto81 said:

He was a FA and got a boatload of money from the Titans. Wanted to keep him but it was the right move by management. 

 

 

it wasn't that clear that they wanted to keep him. They should've. But they waited and waited. The offer was a ton of money but it seemed that that regime was looking for a different kind of guy, that they wanted road graders and thought Levitre was a finesse guy.

[CookieG]

On 9/7/2018 at 7:59 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

The replacement plans for both Peters (who I would not have let go) and Levitre (still say on balance I would) were both brutal bordering on negligent. 

If that ain't the truth.

 

Buddy was still GM when Levitre left, btw. 

 

And he had a list of practice squad players and UDFA's of about a dozen. And he'd say something like, "the fans will be surprised about the quality of these guys."

 

Uh huh...

 

I can understand not wanting to pay Levitre 8 mill per year, but damn...it was pure dumpster scouring for his replacement.

 

And I remember people being cool with that.

 

There were enough using the standard "why don't we see what happens.." or "You don't know what Buddy's plan is!"

 

Whaley was a little better when it came to the Oline, but not much.

 

Beane is...lol...wow...he needs to bring in a player evaluator who knows something about Olinemen.

 

 

[BuffaloRush]

1 minute ago, CookieG said:

If that ain't the truth.

 

Buddy was still GM when Levitre left, btw. 

 

And he had a list of practice squad players and UDFA's of about a dozen. And he'd say something like, "the fans will be surprised about the quality of these guys."

 

Uh huh...

 

I can understand not wanting to pay Levitre 8 mill per year, but damn...it was pure dumpster scouring for his replacement.

 

And I remember people being cool with that.

 

There were enough using the standard "why don't we see what happens.." or "You don't know what Buddy's plan is!"

 

Whaley was a little better when it came to the Oline, but not much.

 

Beane is...lol...wow...he needs to bring in a player evaluator who knows something about Olinemen.

 

 

 

People often will romanticize about Buddy Nix and Doug Whaley as GM’s.  They were not good.

 

I always thought Levitre was a solid guard.  I don’t think the Bills thought he was worth the contract he commanded

[CookieG]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said:

 

People often will romanticize about Buddy Nix and Doug Whaley as GM’s.  They were not good.

 

I always thought Levitre was a solid guard.  I don’t think the Bills thought he was worth the contract he commanded

I think Buddy had more talent for evaluating O linemen, I have little doubt he gave the recommendations on Wood and Levitre in 2009.  Russ sure didn't.

 

But I also think he thought a little too much of his evaluation skills and believed he could just find the guys in later rounds or UDFA's.  Problem is, he never did find one, much less several.

 

He was also fixated on recreating the Charger's defense in Buffalo so the offense was pretty much ignored.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, CookieG said:

I think Buddy had more talent for evaluating O linemen, I have little doubt he gave the recommendations on Wood and Levitre in 2009.  Russ sure didn't.

 

But I also think he thought a little too much of his evaluation skills and believed he could just find the guys in later rounds or UDFA's.  Problem is, he never did find one, much less several.

 

He was also fixated on recreating the Charger's defense in Buffalo so the offense was pretty much ignored.

 

 

 

Except for CJ Spiller and TJ freaking Graham!!

 

 

21 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said:

 

People often will romanticize about Buddy Nix and Doug Whaley as GM’s.  They were not good.

 

I always thought Levitre was a solid guard.  I don’t think the Bills thought he was worth the contract he commanded

 

Whaley was average and built a team that was average. The record in the 3 seasons that followed full Whaley pre-seasons was exactly .500 and that was despite two years of pitiful coaching under Rex. 

[BuffaloRush]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Except for CJ Spiller and TJ freaking Graham!!

 

 

 

Whaley was average and built a team that was average. The record in the 3 seasons that followed full Whaley pre-seasons was exactly .500 and that was despite two years of pitiful coaching under Rex. 

 

More romanticism.  Whaley was below average to me.  Yes he made a few nice moves, but all GM’s do.  He loses points for some really bad drafts and his big gambles never paid off (trading Sammy to help EJ).  Also without a major QB contract on the books, he somehow managed to put the team in a horrendous salary cap position.  

 

Also under the Buddy, the Bills were essentially a 6-10 team.  What did Whaley do to improve?  He helped them win 1 or 2 more games in 3 years.  He was not as good as some fans give him credit for

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:15 PM, JoeF said:

He was for four years.  Left as a Free Agent after the 2012 season.   Married a Buffalo girl.

 

...back when the going rate for a guard was $8 mil/yr..............which at that time was thought to be crazy money I believe..............

[billsbackto81]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

it wasn't that clear that they wanted to keep him. They should've. But they waited and waited. The offer was a ton of money but it seemed that that regime was looking for a different kind of guy, that they wanted road graders and thought Levitre was a finesse guy.

This is true. Nobody will know for certain though it seemed they were more concerned about getting Byrd taken care of instead of Levitre. You'd think they would have kept Andy if they were able to get a more team friendly number. 

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said:

 

More romanticism.  Whaley was below average to me.  Yes he made a few nice moves, but all GM’s do.  He loses points for some really bad drafts and his big gambles never paid off (trading Sammy to help EJ).  Also without a major QB contract on the books, he somehow managed to put the team in a horrendous salary cap position.  

 

Also under the Buddy, the Bills were essentially a 6-10 team.  What did Whaley do to improve?  He helped them win 1 or 2 more games in 3 years.  He was not as good as some fans give him credit for

 

It isn't romanticism. I think he was average. He built teams that had talent but never got past an average record. While I don't think GMs should be judged just by record the fact is Whaley's rosters won more games than those who came before him and won as many as they lost. His biggest fault in my mind actually was his personal relationships. When you fall out with basically 3 Head Coaches (fell out with Marrone and Rex and then Sean decided he couldn't work with him) that has to be on you. 

[ColoradoBills]

28 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...back when the going rate for a guard was $8 mil/yr..............which at that time was thought to be crazy money I believe..............

 

....but the Bills had Doug Legursky and Colin Brown............oh never mind.

When is signed with TEN he was like top 5 guard money.

[pimp on da' net]

On 9/8/2018 at 12:10 AM, SoTier said:

 

Are you implying that Levitre wasn't healthy?  That seems to be a favorite excuse that some fans make for the Bills' questionable move, but the fact is that Levitre started every Bills game during his four years with the Bills.   He then went on to start 32 more games in 2 seasons with the Titans and another 32 more games in his first 2 seasons with the Falcons.  In fact, the three games that Levitre missed in 2017 were the first 3 games he missed in his entire career ... and he's back to starting for the Falcons once again.  He started 128 straight games for three teams.

 

Most successful teams have a GM who's more than a glorified scout and scapegoat for a string of mostly less than competent HCs, which has been what the Bills have had since Tom Donahoe was fired in 2006 and Russ Brandon took control of the team.

His 2nd off season with surgery on the opposite knee was a factor according to the article a posted...

 

I don't claim to know the thought/thoughts of the front office. But they had idea of the value of the position and Andy got way more from the Titans, who in turn got rid of him as well.