NYC politician wants Bills+Giants to adopt Jets Anthem policy

[mannc]

13 minutes ago, napmaster said:

 

 

The NFL can mandate whatever speech they like and it will be protected.   Players can choose to drop out of the league, or fans can stop supporting the league and put them out of business.

 

Not necessarily.  The players are members of a union and have rights under their CBA that most workers don’t have.  

 

You’re probably right, though, that the 1st Amendment, which protects citizens against state action, doesn’t help the players much.  But the situation might be different if the owners are acting at the behest of the President of the United States, or in response to threats he’s made against the league.  It’s an interesting question.

 

In addition, the NFL  owner/player relationship is hardly your typical employer/employee relationship.  The players have far more leverage than the typical worker does.

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by mannc

[Mickey]

10 minutes ago, napmaster said:

 

The Supreme Court has ruled otherwise, and Corporate Personhood has been established.  Corporations are treated as unique entities, just like a person, and are provided similar protections.  Hobby Lobby was protected under the 1st Amendment in respect to avoiding laws that were in conflict with the corporate religious beliefs.  If Burger King mandated those greetings it also be protected under the 1st Amendment with the free speech clause.  They may go out of business if they did that, but it would be protected.  

 

The NFL can mandate whatever speech they like and it will be protected.   Players can choose to drop out of the league, or fans can stop supporting the league and put them out of business.

 

Respectfully disagree. There is a rich and long record of supreme court decisions prohibiting compelled speech in a variety of contexts. It is a complicated analysis which defies being reduced to one size fits all summaries like "...they can mandate whatever speech they like..." 

[Just Joshin']

1 minute ago, Epstein's Mother said:

 

It really doesn't bother me that there are players that would prefer to kneel during the national anthem to bring attention to social injustices.  This type of activity is considered free speech and is protected under the 1st amendment to the constitution just as is almost all speech good and bad (with the notable exception of calls to violence).  What is not protected by the first amendment is people's reaction to this type of activity.  

 

Like all of us on this board I have to consider the response to everything I post.  If I am willing to post something then I have to be willing to accept the praise and potentially the condemnation of my fellow posters.  The benefit of anonymity may raise the pain threshold for some on this board but I try to take some care in what I present.

 

If you are willing to kneel for the anthem then you have to be willing to accept everything that goes with it both good and bad.  If you are surprised by negative feedback then you have not properly weighed the potential outcomes of any protest.  No protest receives universal support.

You are incorrect.  Free speech is protected from infringement by the government.  You have no right to protest when on your employers time.

 

The difference is when the employer is limited by collective bargaining.  If the players feel this is significant, ask for it when working the next  contract.  I suspect that players will not make money or other concessions in order to kneel.  That will tell you how committed they are to kneeling:  will you take less money?

[Punching Bag]

Speaking of money what about the impact to the revenue to the NFL from the protests?

Many players want 'guaranteed contracts' (especially those approved by Jim Overdorf which allow you to take illegal drugs without penalty) but if the protests hurt the revenues then those players should be responsible for damages.

[Epstein's Mother]

7 minutes ago, Dalton said:

You are incorrect.  Free speech is protected from infringement by the government.  You have no right to protest when on your employers time.

 

The difference is when the employer is limited by collective bargaining.  If the players feel this is significant, ask for it when working the next  contract.  I suspect that players will not make money or other concessions in order to kneel.  That will tell you how committed they are to kneeling:  will you take less money?

 

You are right.  I should have acknowledged in my post that protest in the workplace is not covered.  

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

As far far as I know, only the Jets have made that offer

The league is fining teams, not players.

[Andrew in CA]

2 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

I think there are certainly people who quit watching games because of the protests. I'm pretty sure it is a known fact. I don't see why everybody wants to claim this guy here is making it up. Geeze half the people on here believe the dunkirk guy. But somebody says they stopped watching games is not plausible. 

 

 

On another note, I personally don't remember any level of controversy like this one for the NFL. Even during Vietnam I don't think the protests were allowed to bleed into the games. 

Anybody else know if there has been a circumstance like this before? 

I don't think it blended in to the NFL but you had Tommie Smith and John Carlos raise their fists during the anthem at the 1968 olympics, and Muhammad Ali refused to go to Vietnam.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Cripple Creek said:

The league is fining teams, not players.

 

 

The OPs article cites the Jets as the team that others should follow in pledging that they will not fine players.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, tumaro02 said:

I do appreciate your post. I would only say that when you say "WE fight for the freedom" are you including yourself? Have you personally fought for our freedom by serving in the armed forces or are you another who CLAIMS that  freedom as a birthright secured by the blood of others who serve now or have shed their blood in the past to secure that freedom for you? It is always easier to claim a Supreme Court ruling as a right when you did not serve or shed blood yourself. As long as some else has fought the fight you are eager to claim that freedom. I have not personally fought to preserve your  freedom or your Supreme Court gained rights but people also have a right to bigotry, racism, thoughtlessness, and some people here go out  of their way to claim all of those rights.

 

Why do you seem to feel that rights, in this country are somehow conditional on whether or not one served in the armed forces?          
NOWHERE are any of our freedoms in any way made conditional on serving in the armed forces or enhanced by having done so.

 

No one need "claim a Supreme Court ruling as a right".  Our rights are granted to us under the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the point of the Supreme Court is simply to assess laws of lower courts in view of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.    Or possibly I simply don't understand what you mean.

 

The overall point I was trying to make is that Supreme Court Justices who have steeped themselves in the Constitution and Bill of Rights have eloquently made the point that patriotism and displays of patriotism should not be coerced: "Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest.  Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions."

"no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."

 

I do respect your right to perceive it as disrespectful.  I also think the above are good words to ponder when interpreting unwillingness to participate in a display of patriotism (such as standing for the national anthem before a game) as disrespect, rather than as the living example of our country's freedoms, including the freedom to disagree about things that are deeply important to some of us.

 

 

[BadLandsMeanie]

1 minute ago, Andrew in CA said:

I don't think it blended in to the NFL but you had Tommie Smith and John Carlos raise their fists during the anthem at the 1968 olympics, and Muhammad Ali refused to go to Vietnam.

Thanks Andrew. I recall those things. To me though Tommie Smith and John Carlos were literally standing on their own platforms (the Olympic pedestals). They earned that through individual accomplishment.  Ali was the same way. 

 

I think an NFL game is a group effort of who knows how many people? Players, coaches, owners, etc. So to have  a few guys say they are using their platform isn't right. They are using the platform of everybody who makes up the overall team. Their platform would be whatever individual recognition they could get from being a celebrity athlete. 

 

Anyway that isn't what I am wondering about  I am more wondering if the NFL has faced a challenge like this before. One that has unknown implications.  The NFL had always been very strict about keeping to the script and staying in their lane and not being used as publicity for anyone.  Except if you paid them a fee for advertising . 

 

I just wonder if they know what they are doing or if instead they have opened up Pandoras Box. It could be real interesting to see what happens. 

 

Nowadays they have this in the middle of the most divided political climate since Vietnam & Nixon and all that, so far as I know. And they are kind of taking a side.

They have the whole women beating image thing.

They have the CTE stuff. Which I happen to know from a doctor / professory pal that a new study shows that participating in football before age 12 predicts an average onset of dementia 5 years earlier if I remember correctly. He said it was good study. Wait til that becomes commonly known.

 

And the weird thing is I am not even sure if I have all the major problems listed. It is getting hard to keep track of them. I don't remember a time when the NFL was so messy on their landscape as it is now.  

[Andrew in CA]

I'd prefer if all sports just stopped playing the anthem altogether.  It is an odd time for a display of patriotism and we've all seemed to accept it because it's been going on for years and years.  Why did they even do it in the first place? 

 

Hey, all you drunks who've been throwing yourselves through tables and chugging liquor out of bowling balls for 5 hours, please stand and remove your hats and solemnly reflect on what it means to be an American before this sporting event, in which no team is playing on behalf of the nation! Oh, but feel free to puke in the bathroom or chug your beers in the concourse or get 12 more beers at the concession stands while it's playing!

 

8 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Thanks Andrew. I recall those things. To me though Tommie Smith and John Carlos were literally standing on their own platforms (the Olympic pedestals). They earned that through individual accomplishment.  Ali was the same way. 

 

I think an NFL game is a group effort of who knows how many people? Players, coaches, owners, etc. So to have  a few guys say they are using their platform isn't right. They are using the platform of everybody who makes up the overall team. Their platform would be whatever individual recognition they could get from being a celebrity athlete. 

 

Anyway that isn't what I am wondering about  I am more wondering if the NFL has faced a challenge like this before. One that has unknown implications.  The NFL had always been very strict about keeping to the script and staying in their lane and not being used as publicity for anyone.  Except if you paid them a fee for advertising . 

 

Yeah I getcha -- those events were on my mind because I recently watched a four-part special on 1968.  I agree in my lifetime that this is the most divided political climate, and I found myself wondering if we didn't have cable and the internet would we be seeing more of the large protests and violence that they saw in that year..... I don't know one way or the other, just got me thinking about it.  

 

And yes i agree with you that the NFL seems to be totally clueless when it comes to all of their problems, not just the anthem stuff.  

Edited June 2, 2018 by Andrew in CA

[machine gun kelly]

Andrew -every major sport plays the National Anthem and in the NBA there is a far gr after percentage of people of color than the NFL, and standing for the Anthem is mandatory.

 

i still think this plan will be a spectacle as it will be obvious who is not out there.  No one seemed to like my simple solution to just go pre 911 and not have anyone out there and problem solved.

 

By the way I absolutely agree with the players who as I adhore racial violence in anyway, and want as many players of any race or ethnicity protest these injustices.  I just don’t agree with doing it on the field during a game.  Raise funds, protests, talk to you’re local police depts about the injustices you’ve faced or extra stops when driving.  It’s disgusting and should not be tolerated by superiors.  For any of the police officers as a couple of years ago fired on an innocent person should go to jail.

 

i respect people who have an opposite opinion, but that does not mean my opinion is valid as well.  

 

I’m sure I’ll catch it for my opinion, but I really try to be respectful of people I disagree with on this stance.

 

i hope all of you have a nice weekend.

[BadLandsMeanie]

16 minutes ago, Andrew in CA said:

I'd prefer if all sports just stopped playing the anthem altogether.  It is an odd time for a display of patriotism and we've all seemed to accept it because it's been going on for years and years.  Why did they even do it in the first place? 

 

Hey, all you drunks who've been throwing yourselves through tables and chugging liquor out of bowling balls for 5 hours, please stand and remove your hats and solemnly reflect on what it means to be an American before this sporting event, in which no team is playing on behalf of the nation! Oh, but feel free to puke in the bathroom or chug your beers in the concourse or get 12 more beers at the concession stands while it's playing!

 

 

Yeah I getcha -- those events were on my mind because I recently watched a four-part special on 1968.  I agree in my lifetime that this is the most divided political climate, and I found myself wondering if we didn't have cable and the internet would we be seeing more of the large protests and violence that they saw in that year..... I don't know one way or the other, just got me thinking about it.  

 

And yes i agree with you that the NFL seems to be totally clueless when it comes to all of their problems, not just the anthem stuff.  

Good thoughts. On the anthem, that goes way back into baseball lore, at least that far back I think. No idea why they started. My best guess would be it signals people to settle down and pay attention the game is about to start.

 

It works well for that because most people figure they have to behave during it so it settles everyone down and gets them paying attention to the field. 

 

I personally wouldn't stop playing it in response to this, unless things got very desperate. I think stopping on account of this would do more lasting harm than the kneeling.

 

 

3 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Andrew -every major sport plays the National Anthem and in the NBA there is a far gr after percentage of people of color than the NFL, and standing for the Anthem is mandatory.

 

i still think this plan will be a spectacle as it will be obvious who is not out there.  No one seemed to like my simple solution to just go pre 911 and not have anyone out there and problem solved.

 

By the way I absolutely agree with the players who as I adhore racial violence in anyway, and want as many players of any race or ethnicity protest these injustices.  I just don’t agree with doing it on the field during a game.  Raise funds, protests, talk to you’re local police depts about the injustices you’ve faced or extra stops when driving.  It’s disgusting and should not be tolerated by superiors.  For any of the police officers as a couple of years ago fired on an innocent person should go to jail.

 

i respect people who have an opposite opinion, but that does not mean my opinion is valid as well.  

 

I’m sure I’ll catch it for my opinion, but I really try to be respectful of people I disagree with on this stance.

 

i hope all of you have a nice weekend.

The pre-911 is a falsehood. Check it out. That is just something somebody made up. 

[napmaster]

1 hour ago, Mickey said:

Respectfully disagree. There is a rich and long record of supreme court decisions prohibiting compelled speech in a variety of contexts. It is a complicated analysis which defies being reduced to one size fits all summaries like "...they can mandate whatever speech they like..." 

 

As for a rich and long record of SCOTUS decisions, I can cite precedence on rulings involving governmental bodies and jurisdictions in which compelled speech was ruled against, but I have not yet run across a case involving a private or public corporation.  I am not saying there aren't any, only that I have not seen one.  It's possible there are many.

 

To your second point, I agree and should have worded my response more carefully.  They cannot mandate whatever speech they, so thank you for calling me out on that.  There are clearly limits bound by sedition and imminent danger and likely others.

[Andrew in CA]

8 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Andrew -every major sport plays the National Anthem and in the NBA there is a far gr after percentage of people of color than the NFL, and standing for the Anthem is mandatory.

 

i still think this plan will be a spectacle as it will be obvious who is not out there.  No one seemed to like my simple solution to just go pre 911 and not have anyone out there and problem solved.

 

By the way I absolutely agree with the players who as I adhore racial violence in anyway, and want as many players of any race or ethnicity protest these injustices.  I just don’t agree with doing it on the field during a game.  Raise funds, protests, talk to you’re local police depts about the injustices you’ve faced or extra stops when driving.  It’s disgusting and should not be tolerated by superiors.  For any of the police officers as a couple of years ago fired on an innocent person should go to jail.

 

i respect people who have an opposite opinion, but that does not mean my opinion is valid as well.  

  

I’m sure I’ll catch it for my opinion, but I really try to be respectful of people I disagree with on this stance.

 

i hope all of you have a nice weekend.

 

I know, my point is all sports should stop playing it, at least for every single game.  It loses meaning and is not treated with respect or reflection.  Symbols lose their meaning when they become routine.  You're plenty respectful, no disrespect taken!

 

5 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Good thoughts. On the anthem, that goes way back into baseball lore, at least that far back I think. No idea why they started. My best guess would be it signals people to settle down and pay attention the game is about to start.

 

It works well for that because most people figure they have to behave during it so it settles everyone down and gets them paying attention to the field. 

 

I personally wouldn't stop playing it in response to this, unless things got very desperate. I think stopping on account of this would do more lasting harm than the kneeling.

 

 

 

Exactly -- the anthem becomes a school bell letting everyone know to get to class on time!  It is not about reflection or reverence.  You're right that if they stopped it now, it would be seen as a response to these protests, but I think that they should've done this awhile ago.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Andrew in CA

[BadLandsMeanie]

23 minutes ago, Andrew in CA said:

 

And yes i agree with you that the NFL seems to be totally clueless when it comes to all of their problems, not just the anthem stuff.  

On this last point, just my own two cents. I have finally come to realize that the reason the NFL always has such trouble with the image that they have a lower opinion of and are disrespectful of women, is because they are.  I never believed that I always thought it was an unfair slam on them. But having looked a lot, I think it is true. 

 

To your larger point I agree they are insulated in some weird way that they can't see their problems in a clear headed way. 

4 minutes ago, Andrew in CA said:

 

 

 

Exactly -- the anthem becomes a school bell letting everyone know to get to class on time!  It is not about reflection or reverence.  You're right that if they stopped it now, it would be seen as a response to these protests, but I think that they should've done this awhile ago.

I bet they wish they had stopped a while ago!

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

I would say it was lost when the owners decided to react to it with statements of outrage and unity. Some taking it a bunch of levels up and making a big show of kneeling with their players. Talk about being trolled.   Trump just made troll remark they should have just totally ignored it, but they were too stupid.

 

There were too many raw emotions at the time.  Both by the players who protested and the teammates who felt the president took a direct shot at their  brothers in the locker room by calling them SOB's who should be fired at a rally in Alabama.  I don't know how the teams could've done it any differently. 

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not ignored it, perhaps, but responded with a statement to the effect of "We, as the owners of the NFL, will exercise our rights to run our business as we see fit without unwarranted interference from elected officials" - or the like.

That may have been a smart way to go, but I still think you would've seen owners and players joining hands during the National Anthem that following Sunday as the emotions of the players were just too intense at the time.

[Marv's Neighbor]

We have enough problems without taking advice from a politico.  maybe if he built us a stadium, we'd listen?  Nah!

[Engelwood]

21 hours ago, Tatonka68 said:

Let's say you pay $100 00 to see a Broadway play and during the play a actor stops acting and tells the audience that he is vegan and eating animals is evil. Is that freedom of speech? What would you do if you were the producer?

Are you paying to see the players play football or stand like pylons during the national anthem. your analogy would work if they stopped playing and did it but they are playing hard through every snap. It is just the American media that has taken what they were protesting, perceived injustice and mistreatment by police, something that can be debated and if there is an issue be solved and turned it into a debate that has no solution and will make arguments and separate the nation into 2 separate groups. In this case it is about respecting the military vs right to protest........ If you are arguing about that you have turned into a sheep for the media and are missing the point to everything. Unfortunately even the NFL has fallen for it. 

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

The OPs article cites the Jets as the team that others should follow in pledging that they will not fine players.

 

 

Correct. The jets won’t “pass on” the fine to the players. Much ado about nothing. IMO the Pegulas would do the same. Just a politician grandstanding.

[purple haze]

23 minutes ago, Engelwood said:

Are you paying to see the players play football or stand like pylons during the national anthem. your analogy would work if they stopped playing and did it but they are playing hard through every snap. It is just the American media that has taken what they were protesting, perceived injustice and mistreatment by police, something that can be debated and if there is an issue be solved and turned it into a debate that has no solution and will make arguments and separate the nation into 2 separate groups. In this case it is about respecting the military vs right to protest........ If you are arguing about that you have turned into a sheep for the media and are missing the point to everything. Unfortunately even the NFL has fallen for it. 

I don't think you can blame the media.  They report news.  The protests were news.  Then the president takes it up a notch with his comments and misinformation, now they will report that and analyze the various parts of the situation.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Good thoughts. On the anthem, that goes way back into baseball lore, at least that far back I think. No idea why they started. My best guess would be it signals people to settle down and pay attention the game is about to start.

 

It works well for that because most people figure they have to behave during it so it settles everyone down and gets them paying attention to the field. 

 

I personally wouldn't stop playing it in response to this, unless things got very desperate. I think stopping on account of this would do more lasting harm than the kneeling.

 

Hey, Meanie.  My favorite sources say you are absolutely correct about the baseball connection.  From "The Straight Dope":

" this site, (http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2003-02-28-flagprotest.shtml) had this info:It is generally accepted that its first appearance during a sporting event was the 1918 World Series. To demonstrate major league patriotism, baseball teams had the players march in formation during pre-game military drills while carrying bats on their shoulders. During the seventh-inning stretch of game one, when the band spontaneously began to play the "Star Spangled Banner," the Cubs and Red Sox players stood at attention facing the centerfield flag pole. The crowd sang along and applauded when the singing ended.

 

For those who aren't history buffs, the US entry into WWI in April, 1917 spurred a wave of patriotism across the country - a wave of patriotism with its dark side.  President Woodrow Wilson said ""Any man who carries a hyphen about with him*, carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic when he gets ready." German-Americans considered themselves to be good Americans of German extraction or descent, with no love for the rulers left behind.  Nevertheless, anti-German hysteria took hold.  The German language  was forbidden; German newspapers were censored; German books were removed from library shelves.   Lynching occurred in the Midwest, beatings elsewhere.

Anyway I digress: bottom line, anthems before sporting events initiated during a surge of government-supported patriotism during WWI.

 

 

 

 

[ALF]

As a veteran I don't have a problem with players taking a knee for this cause. I do respect those who are offended. 

 

If players are willing to pay a fine for their demonstration  that is ok. I don't want the owner to pay it for them though.  jmo

[dwight in philly]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[cba fan]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 2:27 PM, ProcessAccepted said:

 

No that's not it ?

 

I would prefer if their issue was what was debated and not the politicized kneel no kneel thing. Players as citizens should have the right to protest. This country and it's Freedoms that have been fought for and won allow us people the right to peaceful protest.

 

How come my employer will fire me if I protest on the job during working hours or on their property at any time?

[ColoradoBills]

37 minutes ago, ALF said:

As a veteran I don't have a problem with players taking a knee for this cause.

I do respect those who are offended. 

 jmo

 

As a veteran myself,  I also take the same position as you do ALF.  I say this not thinking my position should or needs to be held in any way higher or

more important than any other citizen's.  I say that only because some make "veterans" a central point in their personal opinions.

 

There is a lot being said about the people who are protesting and those who oppose said protests.  To me it is not about the people but about the

ideals that are being argued.

 

I have sympathy for those who perceive that the protests "disrespect" the ideals they believe in.

 

I have empathy for the ideals that those who participate in the protests champion.

 

I have no problem accepting both ideals.

I can't make both sides come to an agreement that benefits "most" concerned, but I wish someone could.

jmo

 

 

[Wily Dog]

I am a veteran . The right to protest is inherent in our roots. ( The Boston Tea Party ) in case some of you want to look it up. My service , i would like to think was not to glorify a flag or anthem , it was to defend our freedoms. The freedom to protest is one freedom which every American should defend to his/her  death. The intellectual lightweight  4Fer  in the White House  chose to make the protest political and the NFL  bit.  MLK  and Bobby Kennedy  among others  paid with their  lives for our sacred right to protest. Colin Kaepernick  has paid dearly for his just protestations. The NFL has taken  the path of  ignominy. I am sure that  a solution can be worked out if politics can be kept out of the solution. For the rednecks out there  , I am a caucasian.

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, ALF said:

As a veteran I don't have a problem with players taking a knee for this cause. I do respect those who are offended. 

 

If players are willing to pay a fine for their demonstration  that is ok. I don't want the owner to pay it for them though.  jmo

The league is fining teams, not players.

[Wily Dog]

I do not respect those who are offended by a person taking a knee if they do not know what they are protesting.  I will say that most people do not know what the protest is about.

[BadLandsMeanie]

1 hour ago, ALF said:

As a veteran I don't have a problem with players taking a knee for this cause. I do respect those who are offended. 

 

If players are willing to pay a fine for their demonstration  that is ok. I don't want the owner to pay it for them though.  jmo

I wish those of us who are annoyed by it, could sign up and have the fines paid to us. I wouldn't mind it all if that happened. I wonder how much money it is? Say I got 100  bucks for every bozo that kneeled down. That would be pretty sweet. I think I am some sort of a dick because that thought actually makes me happy. I would probably even be hollering for more of them to man up and kneel.

 

 

 

[BadLandsMeanie]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

 

There were too many raw emotions at the time.  Both by the players who protested and the teammates who felt the president took a direct shot at their  brothers in the locker room by calling them SOB's who should be fired at a rally in Alabama.  I don't know how the teams could've done it any differently. 

 

How you do it differently would be to clam down, take some deep breaths, and think about where what you are doing, can lead you.

 

That is very often  the difference between someone who does foolish things, and someone who doesn't.

Between someone who gets baited, trolled, and owned, and someone who doesn't. 

 

In fact I think if you are smart, and have learned something in life, you would know that when you are emotionally upset, that is the time to not act. That is the time to wait and calm down and then think. These guys thought they were big shots and they would show him. That is not what is happening.

 

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Hey, Meanie.  My favorite sources say you are absolutely correct about the baseball connection.  From "The Straight Dope":

" this site, (http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2003-02-28-flagprotest.shtml) had this info:It is generally accepted that its first appearance during a sporting event was the 1918 World Series. To demonstrate major league patriotism, baseball teams had the players march in formation during pre-game military drills while carrying bats on their shoulders. During the seventh-inning stretch of game one, when the band spontaneously began to play the "Star Spangled Banner," the Cubs and Red Sox players stood at attention facing the centerfield flag pole. The crowd sang along and applauded when the singing ended.

 

For those who aren't history buffs, the US entry into WWI in April, 1917 spurred a wave of patriotism across the country - a wave of patriotism with its dark side.  President Woodrow Wilson said ""Any man who carries a hyphen about with him*, carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic when he gets ready." German-Americans considered themselves to be good Americans of German extraction or descent, with no love for the rulers left behind.  Nevertheless, anti-German hysteria took hold.  The German language  was forbidden; German newspapers were censored; German books were removed from library shelves.   Lynching occurred in the Midwest, beatings elsewhere.

Anyway I digress: bottom line, anthems before sporting events initiated during a surge of government-supported patriotism during WWI.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Hap! A different time. The marching with bats would seem VERY corny nowadays.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by BadLandsMeanie

[Wily Dog]

34 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

I wish those of us who are annoyed by it, could sign up and have the fines paid to us. I wouldn't mind it all if that happened. I wonder how much money it is? Say I got 100  bucks for every bozo that kneeled down. That would be pretty sweet. I think I am some sort of a dick because that thought actually makes me happy. I would probably even be hollering for more of them to man up and kneel.

 

 

 

You are a person who has NO idea what they were kneeling for. They are kneeling for a basic freedom of justice for ALL. Not just the boneheads that think the "Justice For All"  in our pledge was meant for you and not all Americans.

[Albwan]

On 6/1/2018 at 2:49 PM, Buffalo716 said:

https://247sports.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/Article/NYC-politician-wants-New-York-Giants-Buffalo-Bills-to-adopt-Jets-anthem-policy-118678936/Amp

 

First. The Bills are the Only team in New York.

 

Second, who the heck does this guy think he is that he can weasel his thoughts and ideas upon the Giants and Bills

 

Let their owners do what they want, don’t try to play some moral high ground

 

you listen to the owners and their rules at work. Freedom of speech, Press, assembly Doesn’t apply lol

Seems like this happens ALOT lately

[Doc Brown]

42 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

How you do it differently would be to clam down, take some deep breaths, and think about where what you are doing, can lead you.

 

That is very often  the difference between someone who does foolish things, and someone who doesn't.

Between someone who gets baited, trolled, and owned, and someone who doesn't. 

 

In fact I think if you are smart, and have learned something in life, you would know that when you are emotionally upset, that is the time to not act. That is the time to wait and calm down and then think. These guys thought they were big shots and they would show him. That is not what is happening.

Good luck coordinating that with 32 teams within a few days.  

[BadLandsMeanie]

24 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Good luck coordinating that with 32 teams within a few days.  

Exactly. You would need a commissioner who could handle that. They have chosen one who instead is making them gigantic profits. Goodell should be head of NFL accounting. But the nimrod owners don't understand that.

 

And now the owners are not even consistent in backing up their own league plan!

 

So now they will get owned. As many have pointed out this may now become worse instead of better in terms of it being a distraction to the business.

[keepthefaith]

5 hours ago, Andrew in CA said:

 

I know, my point is all sports should stop playing it, at least for every single game.  It loses meaning and is not treated with respect or reflection.  Symbols lose their meaning when they become routine.  You're plenty respectful, no disrespect taken!

 

 

Exactly -- the anthem becomes a school bell letting everyone know to get to class on time!  It is not about reflection or reverence.  You're right that if they stopped it now, it would be seen as a response to these protests, but I think that they should've done this awhile ago.

 

You obviously have never been to a Chicago Blackhawks game where the anthem is sung by this guy.  It's amazing. Every. Single. Game. 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2018 by keepthefaith

[BadLandsMeanie]

1 hour ago, Wily Dog said:

You are a person who has NO idea what they were kneeling for. They are kneeling for a basic freedom of justice for ALL. Not just the boneheads that think the "Justice For All"  in our pledge was meant for you and not all Americans.

Well in fairness I think their message has been quite muddled. But i do think I have the basic idea.

 

My post was more in the way of pointing out, in an absurd way, the essential ridiculousness of the NFL fining teams as a punitive measure.  They are fining themselves.

 

Say I get stopped for speeding I have to pay a ticket, but I pay it to myself. Geeze I had to pay 150 bucks! I take it from my wallet and put it in my piggy bank. That isn't too far from what they are doing.

[BadLandsMeanie]

Sample from the Atlanta Falcons Team DJ playlist who shared 18 of his best pump up songs that the team likes at practice.

 

I'mma have the whole set crying
Have the police like "man down"
Spraying rounds
Talk of the town
A K clip walking around
Bussin the Glock bussin the K

 

 

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Exactly. You would need a commissioner who could handle that. They have chosen one who instead is making them gigantic profits. Goodell should be head of NFL accounting. But the nimrod owners don't understand that.

 

And now the owners are not even consistent in backing up their own league plan!

 

So now they will get owned. As many have pointed out this may now become worse instead of better in terms of it being a distraction to the business.

Forget about the fact that they had over a year, not days.  This was the best solution they could come up with.

[Andrew in CA]

1 hour ago, keepthefaith said:

 

You obviously have never been to a Chicago Blackhawks game where the anthem is sung by this guy.  It's amazing. Every. Single. Game. 

 

 

A) F the blackhawks, i don't watch garbage teams, that needs to be said off the bat.  ?

B) that's lovely, but i don't think it's appropriate for this to be happening at every single sporting event around the country every day.  It diminishes the symbolism and importance of the anthem.