National Anthem Solution

[Roger Goodell]

I am very pleased to have broad agreement on a solution that honors our service men and women, the social concerns of our players, and earns the respect our fans.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

I’m not arguing any flag code related points. Simply that it’s silly to pretend the status quo wasn’t already political. 

 

Though regardless the teeth in the code- if the argument is players must respect the flag but the person espousing that argument doesn’t follow the same codes of respect - it’s a tiny bit hypocritical, no? Not that I think either should be punished but conversationally we can agree it’s a bit of a jerk move to cite it against someone else but not follow it yourself?

 

That is my personal viewpoint. 

 

I disagree with, but respect people who take the viewpoint that people should stand from respect for the national anthem and flag - if they don't have any flag-printed clothing or disposable items and refuse to use them. 

 

People who make a case for the former while leaving skid-marks on their flag-printed briefs and smearing mustard on their flag-printed disposable plate strike me as Hippo-critical.  Just my opinion.

 

3 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

I agree.  I also think that protesting a country that affords you the opportunity to make millions of dollars playing a game is pretty silly.  

 

Ultimately, I think this whole story is overblown nonsense, and on my "**** to worry about" list is somewhere back on page 137, after "toenail fungus" and "blogging about that cloud I once saw that looked like Ernest Borgnine."  

 

Tell me about that cloud you once saw that looked like Ernest Borgnine.

[DC Tom]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Tell me about that cloud you once saw that looked like Earnest Borgnine.

 

Well, it was a cloud, and it looked like Ernest Borgnine.  Then I looked away, and I looked back and it still looked like Ernest Borgnine.  Then I looked away, and looked back again, and it looked like a Japanese Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's.  Then I looked away and looked back again, and it looked like Toshiro Mifune.  Then I looked away and looked back again, and it looked like a horse (or Sarah Jessica Parker, never could decide which).  Then I yelled at it and went inside.

 

I can cross that one off my bucket list, now...

[boyst]

36 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

I’m not arguing any flag code related points. Simply that it’s silly to pretend the status quo wasn’t already political. 

 

Though regardless the teeth in the code- if the argument is players must respect the flag but the person espousing that argument doesn’t follow the same codes of respect - it’s a tiny bit hypocritical, no? Not that I think either should be punished but conversationally we can agree it’s a bit of a jerk move to cite it against someone else but not follow it yourself?

I am not concerned with the respect of the flag in this argument. Not my interest.

 

My interests would be:

1) it's a bogus argument by the kneelers that's inaccurate and anlie

2) it's a pathetic demonstration of protest that doesn't and won't result in positive repercussions

3) most importantly they're at work and it's not just something that is arbitrarily a 1st amendment issue.

 

The flag, the anthem, all that gobblygook people throw in on it are red herrings that detract from the premise of the protests which has been proven invalid and therefore wasteful and unnecessary self grandiose posturing to gain attention.

[Gugny]

21 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

I am not concerned with the respect of the flag in this argument. Not my interest.

 

My interests would be:

1) it's a bogus argument by the kneelers that's inaccurate and anlie

2) it's a pathetic demonstration of protest that doesn't and won't result in positive repercussions

3) most importantly they're at work and it's not just something that is arbitrarily a 1st amendment issue.

 

The flag, the anthem, all that gobblygook people throw in on it are red herrings that detract from the premise of the protests which has been proven invalid and therefore wasteful and unnecessary self grandiose posturing to gain attention.

 

There's no such thing as a positive repercussion.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

There's no such thing as a positive repercussion.

 

It's not the standard usage of the word, but technically I suppose there is.

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's not the standard usage of the word, but technically I suppose there is.

 

Repercussions can be thought of as ripple effects occurring because of an incident or action. A decision can cause unexpected, and/or indirect, repercussions, which are more far-reaching than mere consequences. A consequence can be positive or negative, but a repercussion is always negative.

 

http://vocabulary-vocabulary.com/dictionary/repercussion.php

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Repercussions can be thought of as ripple effects occurring because of an incident or action. A decision can cause unexpected, and/or indirect, repercussions, which are more far-reaching than mere consequences. A consequence can be positive or negative, but a repercussion is always negative.

 

http://vocabulary-vocabulary.com/dictionary/repercussion.php

 

 

 

don't want to play "dictionary wars" but if you google you'll find several sources that disagree with the above.

[boyst]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

Repercussions can be thought of as ripple effects occurring because of an incident or action. A decision can cause unexpected, and/or indirect, repercussions, which are more far-reaching than mere consequences. A consequence can be positive or negative, but a repercussion is always negative.

 

http://vocabulary-vocabulary.com/dictionary/repercussion.php

 

 

Disirregardless of one website I can promise you another will disagree. Internet 101.

 

Http://wordsmith.org/English/dictionary/reper_&_&%%_.html

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Boyst62 said:

Disirregardless of one website I can promise you another will disagree. Internet 101.

 

Http://wordsmith.org/English/dictionary/reper_&_&%%_.html

 

Well played

[row_33]

for two decades I've PVR'd and fast forwarded to the opening kickoff, I don't have 2 seconds to bother with the talking heads or pregame show or a bad intro or protests

 

just play the game

 

[Fred Clause]

3 hours ago, Buffalo86 said:

If people were kneeling in protest of America's treatment of its veterans, they'd enjoy near universal support.  But racial inequality?  "Get the hell out of my country!"  

Well since it all started over a couple of thugs that couldn’t follow the simple instructions of some LEO’S, no, they were not going to get the support of the mostly law abiding citizens of this country. And since they were showing disrespect towards the men and woman who serve and some who gave there lives for this country, what did you expect?

[xsoldier54]

4 hours ago, That_Guy said:

If the NFL cared about losing TV ratings over this, like they claim they are and do, it's an easy fix:

 

At the stadium: Do the anthem as normal and let people sit/stand/kneel if that's what they want

On TV: when the stadium anthem starts, cut to some cheesy b-roll video montage of flags waving gently in the breeze and eagles soaring majestically while an audio recording of the anthem is played over it.

 

Once the issue is out of sight out of mind to the TV viewer the ratings should come back and all is well.

While this seems like a good idea, I have many friends who have vowed that they will never watch another NFL game.  They have already found other things to do on Sunday afternoons with their families.  For these people it won't matter what the NFL does.  It will be too little, too late. 

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, xsoldier54 said:

While this seems like a good idea, I have many friends who have vowed that they will never watch another NFL game.  They have already found other things to do on Sunday afternoons with their families.  For these people it won't matter what the NFL does.  It will be too little, too late. 

 

i get all 16 games, most weeks, and besides watching the Bills, you couldn't pay me to sit there and watch 13 or 14 of the other games.

 

it's painful to see the matchups each week, I couldn't possibly care less about almost all of the other games

 

 

and i'm the market demo that the advertisers are fighting over....

[Gugny]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well played

 

!@#$er got me, too.

[nedboy7]

4 hours ago, Jeetz1231 said:

I know I am probably in the minority, but I am a veteran of the US military and I don't personally feel like the kneeling is disrespectful to the flag or my brothers and sisters who served and are still serving. If anything it shows the freedoms we have in this country as individuals. The protest is for racial injustice when dealing with police, they are using their right to peaceful protest. I personally would prefer that they stood for the anthem, but at the end of the day we live in a country that gives them the right to kneel for the anthem, and that is what makes this country great.

 

Thank you sir. For your service and your rational brain. Bless you. 

If you really care about veterans do something. Stop whining about grown men trying to send a message. Don’t ever confuse standing for the flag w real patriotism.  

[Jobot]

I don't actually care about this issue at all.

 

The reason for the rule change was that the league owners didn't like the impact to their bottom line $$.

Just don't fool yourself into thinking that anyone on the business side of the NFL acted this way out of patriotism.

 

[Dr. K]

When did the national anthem get identified with our military and its members? It did not used to represent that, or only that. The whole forced patriotism thing sickens me. The people who are most vociferously "patriotic" in public are often the ones who least understand U.S. history, and the founders, and the Constitution. Patriotism has become a business and a club to beat the people who disagree with the policies pursued by politicians. 

 

Forced public displays of patriotism are like public displays of religion: the louder and more insistent they are, the hollower they sound. 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Dr. K said:

When did the national anthem get identified with our military and its members? It did not used to represent that, or only that. The whole forced patriotism thing sickens me. The people who are most vociferously "patriotic" in public are often the ones who least understand U.S. history, and the founders, and the Constitution. Patriotism has become a business and a club to beat the people who disagree with the policies pursued by politicians. 

 

Forced public displays of patriotism are like public displays of religion: the louder and more insistent they are, the hollower they sound. 

Usin this thread as an example, most people who are screaming about forced patriotism don't understand what the First Amendment means sooo

[K-9]

The playing of the national anthem before sporting events violates the solemnity of the the anthem itself. It serves to cheapen rather than glorify. And the NFL further cheapens it by accepting money to stage these phony displays of "patriotism."

 

Sinclair Lewis was right. 

[Jobot]

1 minute ago, Dr. K said:

When did the national anthem get identified with our military and its members? It did not used to represent that, or only that. The whole forced patriotism thing sickens me. The people who are most vociferously "patriotic" in public are often the ones who least understand U.S. history, and the founders, and the Constitution. Patriotism has become a business and a club to beat the people who disagree with the policies pursued by politicians. 

 

Forced public displays of patriotism are like public displays of religion: the louder and more insistent they are, the hollower they sound. 

 

It began when the US military began paying hundreds of thousands of tax payer dollars to promote... the US military.  I'd say 'propaganda' but ppl would get offended, but that's basically the same thing as advertising.

[KD in CA]

Just now, Jobot said:

I don't actually care about this issue at all.

 

The reason for the rule change was that the league owners didn't like the impact to their bottom line $$.

Just don't fool yourself into thinking that anyone on the business side of the NFL acted this way out of patriotism.

 

 

What I continue to find odd is how many people seem to begrudge the owners having this mindset.

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

The playing of the national anthem before sporting events violates the solemnity of the the anthem itself. It serves to cheapen rather than glorify. And the NFL further cheapens it by accepting money to stage these phony displays of "patriotism."

 

Sinclair Lewis was right. 

 "Don't play the anthem before sports" takes emerged around the same time as Mr. Pig Socks. I wonder why.

Edited May 25, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[Dr. K]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

You're at Ft. Hood?  LOL

 

Conflating the idea of ratings being down does not remove the fact the NFL has taken a hit in viewership, particularly since 2016.  And I suspect that this coincides with the protests, although other things have happened. 

This is the logical fallacy called, "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." Correlation is not causation.

[Jobot]

Just now, KD in CA said:

 

What I continue to find odd is how many people seem to begrudge the owners having this mindset.

 

Read my first sentence in the post..

[K-9]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

 "Don't play the anthem before sports" takes emerged around the same time as Mr. Pig Socks. I wonder why.

Wrong. There has been debate on the subject for decades. 

[KD in CA]

10 minutes ago, Jobot said:

 

Read my first sentence in the post..

 

Yeah, I did.  And obviously was commening on a different portion of your post, as indicated by the boldface.  But thanks for your reply.

[xsoldier54]

2 minutes ago, Dr. K said:

This is the logical fallacy called, "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." Correlation is not causation.

If you don't believe that the protests have had an effect on viewership and attendance, then you are either a fool or an idiot.  The owners damn sure recognized both the correlation and causation.  Otherwise they would have taken no action at all.  

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Wrong. There has been debate on the subject for decades. 

Maybe there has. But it was a fringe topic.

 

No one complained about the National Anthem at that Yankees game after 9/11. No one complained about the National Anthem in Super Bowl 25 after the start of the Gulf War.

 

Go watch those videos again and tell me those were cheap displays of patriotism. Go tell me you don't feel ANYTHING. And I'll call you a liar.

Edited May 25, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[White Linen]

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Yep and the Hypocritical open Violation of the US Flag code. But yes Kneeling is disrespect 

 

There's something seriously wrong with you on this topic.  The protesters meant to be disrespectful - that was the point to have their message heard.  

 

Seems to me you're the one spitting in their face - not the ones who don't even agree with their premise.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, White Linen said:

There's something seriously wrong with you on this topic.  The protesters meant to be disrespectful - that was the point to have their message heard.  

Seems to me you're the one spitting in their face - not the ones who don't even agree with their premise.  

 

Don't want to get between you and MAJBobby here, but it seems to me you're implying that protest is inherently disrespectful.

Am I misunderstanding your intent here?

[bmur66]

I wonder what the kneelers will do on Memorial Day?

[nedboy7]

Stop being offended by nonsense. 

[K-9]

28 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Maybe there has. But it was a fringe topic.

 

No one complained about the National Anthem at that Yankees game after 9/11. No one complained about the National Anthem in Super Bowl 25 after the start of the Gulf War.

 

Go watch those videos again and tell me those were cheap displays of patriotism. Go tell me you don't feel ANYTHING. And I'll call you a liar.

As if the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and the start of the Gulf War were the same as any other time. As if the thousands of times the anthem has been played at sporting events before and since those events rose to the same level of attached emotion and feeling of national pride. 

 

Can you honestly tell me you've experienced that exact level of high emotion EVERY time you've heard the anthem before or after those events? Do you get out of your chair at home to stand EVERY time you hear it on television before a game? 

 

People are free to "feel" whatever they want when hearing that song. From pride when it's played while welcoming a returning veteran home to revulsion when seeing it played at a white supremacists rally and everything in between.

 

Regardless, the playing of the anthem commands a certain solemnity. And playing it at raucous sporting events cheapens it far more often than it inspires people. Especially with the NFL and other sports leagues getting paid big money to stage such phony displays to advertise for the military.  

Edited May 25, 2018 by K-9

[Gugny]

8 minutes ago, bmur66 said:

I wonder what the kneelers will do on Memorial Day?

 

Have cookouts and drink beer.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

None of this would be an issue of this country wasn't lettered with so many ignorant, simple/closed minded people, many of which watch NFL telecasts. 

 

Also, none of this would be an issue if the league wasn't receiving money from the armed forces.

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, bmur66 said:

I wonder what the kneelers will do on Memorial Day?

Are people honestly this stupid? People have said nine million times it has nothing to do with the military.  In fact, Kaepernick was sitting and switched to kneeling after talking to Nate Boyer, who served.  Stop being dumb.

 

And it’s hilarious all the fake patriots that have suddenly emerged.  I’m a better American than you BS.  Forcing people to do something is stuff they do in North Korea.  I love how this idiot in office has conned his “base” into thinking he gives 2 craps about anyone but himself.  Patriotism isn’t forcing people to salute the flag.  It’s about making people want to salute the flag.

 

i won’t take a knee but it’s sad that some people can’t have empathy others.  It’s also pathetic that people had no problem with the scumbags who have been in the nfl for year but yet this is where they draw their line.

13 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Have cookouts and drink beer.

That’s what real Americans do!!!

[Spiderweb]

5 hours ago, Jeetz1231 said:

I know I am probably in the minority, but I am a veteran of the US military and I don't personally feel like the kneeling is disrespectful to the flag or my brothers and sisters who served and are still serving. If anything it shows the freedoms we have in this country as individuals. The protest is for racial injustice when dealing with police, they are using their right to peaceful protest. I personally would prefer that they stood for the anthem, but at the end of the day we live in a country that gives them the right to kneel for the anthem, and that is what makes this country great.

That nails it. Our history is one of protest, and revolution. We are not United Kingdom West are we? Strange how even our own history is constantly subject to revisionists who demand compliance in the name of being a good American. Oh, I'm a veteran of our of military also.

[MAJBobby]

42 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

There's something seriously wrong with you on this topic.  The protesters meant to be disrespectful - that was the point to have their message heard.  

 

Seems to me you're the one spitting in their face - not the ones who don't even agree with their premise.  

Wrong....  Even they said it was no disrespect to the Military and or everything.  But go violate the US Flag Code on Monday.  Glass Houses

 

[BillsVet]

47 minutes ago, Dr. K said:

This is the logical fallacy called, "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." Correlation is not causation.

 

That's nice.  I took Latin for a few years as well. 

 

There are many reasons why the NFL is losing audience, one of which is players protesting during the anthem is not received well by many in the general public. 

 

The NFL's ratings issued started in 2016 and I'm cannot be solely attributed to these protests.  But they are most certainly part of the league's issues, or else they wouldn't have taken the step of instituting this new policy.  Alea iacta est.

 

The only reason this policy change has occurred is that the NFL is losing money.   If the league was making as much as they were and TV ratings were high, ownership and the commissioner wouldn't care at all.