NoSaint Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 3 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: I disagree with your assessment on Whaley. I don’t think he was very good. He did a decent job of adding talent but had no vision or direction. He neglected the QB position and yes he drafted poorly. Not a good GM but many Bills fans think he’s great When you can’t pick the coach you can’t set the vision.... all you can do is stock talent 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, NoSaint said: When you can’t pick the coach you can’t set the vision.... all you can do is stock talent This. ^^^ Whaley could be a mediocre GM exacerbated by poor leadership from the head of the franchise. Whaley May also have been a very good to great GM hampered by poor leadership from the head of the franchise. There is one common thread in the Whaley era, and it’s basically Brandon and/or Pegula sharing football operations in terms of coaching. Because of that I won’t ever fault Whaley as being a bad GM, because he did find talent, and left the roster more talented than he found it. That doesn’t mean he was necessarily good or even great. It meant he served his role with handcuffs, and we will never actually know. I’m more PO’d at Pegula/Brandon for their management at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 5 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: Yes exactly. Why is it so hard to understand. That’s like the The Greatest QB’s of All-Time list. It’s the greatest QB’s as of 2018. Because you wouldnt simply look look at who is the best at playing qb today nor would you only using today’s metrics . The context would be their impact in their own era. Not who is most well known at this moment. A guy could be hugely controversial 40 years ago but not well known by kids today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 2 hours ago, The Jokeman said: Really? Flutie's poor play in the last 7 or so games didn't lead to his benching? I don't think poor play makes you the worst player on the roster. Every body has a bad stretch. But they won camp and start as long as they do because they are the best option That is if you're the bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mango said: This. ^^^ Whaley could be a mediocre GM exacerbated by poor leadership from the head of the franchise. Whaley May also have been a very good to great GM hampered by poor leadership from the head of the franchise. There is one common thread in the Whaley era, and it’s basically Brandon and/or Pegula sharing football operations in terms of coaching. Because of that I won’t ever fault Whaley as being a bad GM, because he did find talent, and left the roster more talented than he found it. That doesn’t mean he was necessarily good or even great. It meant he served his role with handcuffs, and we will never actually know. I’m more PO’d at Pegula/Brandon for their management at the time. I’ll even say it concerns me he couldn’t get that power if I’m evaluating his skill set... if you can’t get bosses to empower you that can be an issue from both ends... but yea- outside of qb it was an incredibly talented roster for how often we changed philosophy without him picking the coaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Dirty B Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 11 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: Some very decent choices but I’d disagree with the order a bit. As far as Whaley not having supporters - you are mistaken! There are fans here who will defend Doug to the death Perhaps.... I don’t have the perspective as a old fan. I just know that growing up, the majority of the fans base was 100% Jim Kelly. There was no polarization there. The others are interesting choices, but in 2018 I feel there are more polarizing candidates All you've done is essentially ignored everyone's points that come before your time. OJ is definitely polarizing, and don't define the word for me. I know what it means. A lot of fans who don't think he should be on the wall or his existence acknowledged because of what he did. Then you have fans who don't care about the off the field stuff, and think he should remain honored as a Bill for his production. Jim Kelly definitely drew different reactions from fans. It's hard to be mean spirited towards someone going through what he's going through, but their's plenty of people out there who don't really care for Jim Kelly. Reducing how someone is viewed to the last 5 years is just rather dumb and not really telling the whole truth. People still hold it against Jim that he wouldn't come here when he was drafted. The fan base has never been 100% Jim Kelly. 4 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: I disagree with your assessment on Whaley. I don’t think he was very good. He did a decent job of adding talent but had no vision or direction. He neglected the QB position and yes he drafted poorly. Not a good GM but many Bills fans think he’s great The team he built was better than this past years one that made the playoffs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ol Dirty B said: All you've done is essentially ignored everyone's points that come before your time. OJ is definitely polarizing, and don't define the word for me. I know what it means. A lot of fans who don't think he should be on the wall or his existence acknowledged because of what he did. Then you have fans who don't care about the off the field stuff, and think he should remain honored as a Bill for his production. Jim Kelly definitely drew different reactions from fans. It's hard to be mean spirited towards someone going through what he's going through, but their's plenty of people out there who don't really care for Jim Kelly. Reducing how someone is viewed to the last 5 years is just rather dumb and not really telling the whole truth. People still hold it against Jim that he wouldn't come here when he was drafted. The fan base has never been 100% Jim Kelly. The team he built was better than this past years one that made the playoffs. How are the better? Is it because you believe their better? Their record and playoff berth says otherwise 1 hour ago, Mango said: This. ^^^ Whaley could be a mediocre GM exacerbated by poor leadership from the head of the franchise. Whaley May also have been a very good to great GM hampered by poor leadership from the head of the franchise. There is one common thread in the Whaley era, and it’s basically Brandon and/or Pegula sharing football operations in terms of coaching. Because of that I won’t ever fault Whaley as being a bad GM, because he did find talent, and left the roster more talented than he found it. That doesn’t mean he was necessarily good or even great. It meant he served his role with handcuffs, and we will never actually know. I’m more PO’d at Pegula/Brandon for their management at the time. ....And this is exactly why Doug whaley is THE MOST POLARIZING FIGURE IN BILLS HISTORY 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: It was certainly true as a % before last season joint with Gettleman I think and both lost their jobs there was an article on it. Not sure if it still holds. And Whaley only had 3 proper drafts... 14, 15, 16... easier to bat a good % on the last 3 than say a Ted Thompson or a Rick Smith who had been doing it long enough that their fring players are out of the league. But it’s true! It’s true! I saw on The Stadium Wall, guys! It’s true! Find me legit proof. Also the fact that players are in the NFL doesn’t nexessarily quantity success. Todd Collins had a long career in the NFL AS A 3rd string QB. That doesn’t make him a good 2nd round draft pick. Edited April 5, 2018 by BuffaloRush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 1) Flutie 2) Darryl Lamonica 3) Lou Saban 4) Doug Whaley 5) Tyrod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 16 minutes ago, Green Lightning said: 1) Flutie 2) Darryl Lamonica 3) Lou Saban 4) Doug Whaley 5) Tyrod decent list though I’d argue with the order a bit. Lamonica and Saban probably aren’t as relevant in 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Tyrod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helpmenow Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Cookie, oJ, Kelly, kemp, Thurman and saban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, MTBill said: No disrespect to you BuffaloRush - but you used the word "History" in the title of the thread without the qualifier of "Recent" or "2018's most polarizing". I understand where you're coming from, but if you say in history, you will learn some history of who has been polarizing, not just recent history. EDIT - During the 80's/90's - Kelly was constantly debated on the old internet news groups. He was a jerk off the field, and he refused to sit in games he should have sat due to injury, which caused more harm than good to himself and the team. When I would talk with family still in Buffalo, his name would come up and tempers would flare. I think one of the things which makes for a "good" polarizing figure, they have to be entrenched for a while. Tyrod, while polarizing, only hung around for a few years. But debates went on for 7 years or more on many of these historical folks. That said, if Tyrod has success in Cleveland... well those fires will be stoked here. Well said! The first 3 I thought of were Kelly, Flutie and Owens. I know Owens was here a short time, but, he is probably top 5 polarizing players in NFL history. That backed up by his length of omission from the HOF vs stats in NFL history due to image and character perceptions. JMO Edited April 5, 2018 by Manther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyC81 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 13 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: Disagree. I think that the majority of Bills fans disagree more with the other 4 on the list above Flutie. Whaley is a clear #1 I think you might be misinterpreting what polarizing means. It means that it divides the fan base. Doug Whaley divides fan base much more than Doug Flutie does - as do the other 4 on the list C'mon, the Flutie vs Rob Johnson debate was major and went on long after both were gone from the team. That division was also for and against Flutie. Nothing else comes close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 4 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: How are the better? Is it because you believe their better? Their record and playoff berth says otherwise ....And this is exactly why Doug whaley is THE MOST POLARIZING FIGURE IN BILLS HISTORY But it’s true! It’s true! I saw on The Stadium Wall, guys! It’s true! Find me legit proof. Also the fact that players are in the NFL doesn’t nexessarily quantity success. Todd Collins had a long career in the NFL AS A 3rd string QB. That doesn’t make him a good 2nd round draft pick. I wasn't arguing it made them a success. It was definitely a true statement though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 7 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: I totally disagree there is no one Moreno polarizing than Doug Whaley Right - Donahue is more universally disliked. He’s not a GM that’s as devisive like Doug Whaley In a couple years nobody will even mention Whaley. Heck, people barely mention him now. Almost everyone has moved on. People will continue to talk about Flutie and Johnson for decades. 4 hours ago, Helpmenow said: Cookie, oJ, Kelly, kemp, Thurman and saban Why Thurman? Also, why Kemp? He was before my time so I don't know a ton about him. I don't think OJ counts. He was beloved by everyone until he murdered people. Now pretty much everyone agrees he was a great player and also a scumbag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 26 minutes ago, MJS said: In a couple years nobody will even mention Whaley. Heck, people barely mention him now. Almost everyone has moved on. People will continue to talk about Flutie and Johnson for decades. Why Thurman? Also, why Kemp? He was before my time so I don't know a ton about him. I don't think OJ counts. He was beloved by everyone until he murdered people. Now pretty much everyone agrees he was a great player and also a scumbag. They wont mention Whaley because the Bills ended up with a real GM. You can’t deny that fans either dislike Whaley or they feel he was a good GM who was wronged. in regard to Thurman - people have different interpretations of what it means to be polarizing. 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: I wasn't arguing it made them a success. It was definitely a true statement though. How is it a true statement? Show me the source of this information. Just because you want it to be true, doesn’t mean it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Flutie/Johnson was brutal and split the locker room. I remember being at that season finale before the MSM at home against the Colts and Johnson looked awesome as he outperformed Peyton Manning at least in that game. I remember agreeing with the switch and that's the danger of having a fan (Ralph Wilson) overriding coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 19 hours ago, joesixpack said: Doug Flutie #1, and it's not even really close. every real life Uncle Rico worships Flutie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweats Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 19 hours ago, joesixpack said: Maybe you weren't around here for the flutie/johnson era. I can tell you it was a LOT worse than it has been lately. And dont forget the great Losman/Capt. Check-down debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideRightRevenge Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, WideRightRevenge said: Both surely were polarizing, but not to the extent of the 5 names Iisted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 20 hours ago, MTBill said: I agree with all these - even though some were before my time - those debates still rage in old timers. I almost listed Kelly in my list over Tyrod. I'd rather talk about players we loved most, to be fair. ‘To be ‘Fair’?? Your choices represent those of a 12 year old, ‘to be fair’. 8 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: decent list though I’d argue with the order a bit. Lamonica and Saban probably aren’t as relevant in 2018 WTF does relevant have to do with this thread? If you’re going to argue against everybody who disagrees with your naive thread, then keep it in the garage with your like-minded buddies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 My takes -as it pertains to the Buffalo Bills: #5 Gilchrest. Shouldn’t be on the Wall, though he brought us 1championship. #4 Bruce Smith. ‘I/Me/Mine’ guy. HOFer who created racial discord, community embarrassment, Suspended for drugs -but helped 4 teams reach SB. #3 Flutie/Johnson. I’m still a Johnson man #2 Lamonica/Kemp trade. We went south, Raiders went Gold. #1 Hands Down, Ralph Wilson. In a word, stingy. Philanthropist & brought & kept the Bills in Buffalo. Ran off Saban 2x, Knox, Polian. Wouldn’t pay great players, while hiring his friends Harvey Johnson and Stew Barber 2x each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 5 hours ago, Chandler#81 said: My takes -as it pertains to the Buffalo Bills: #5 Gilchrest. Shouldn’t be on the Wall, though he brought us 1championship. #4 Bruce Smith. ‘I/Me/Mine’ guy. HOFer who created racial discord, community embarrassment, Suspended for drugs -but helped 4 teams reach SB. #3 Flutie/Johnson. I’m still a Johnson man #2 Lamonica/Kemp trade. We went south, Raiders went Gold. #1 Hands Down, Ralph Wilson. In a word, stingy. Philanthropist & brought & kept the Bills in Buffalo. Ran off Saban 2x, Knox, Polian. Wouldn’t pay great players, while hiring his friends Harvey Johnson and Stew Barber 2x each. Not bad, but like I said before I don’t think Lamonica or Cookie are as polarizing as the 5 I listed earlier. But Ralph - hell yes! I don’t think Bruce is very polarizing. Maybe at one time he was, but most fans love Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 19 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: decent list though I’d argue with the order a bit. Lamonica and Saban probably aren’t as relevant in 2018 The thread said in Bills history and I started following the team in 1963, so these guys a all relevant to me. Saban was a huge tumult in the day. Good thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 23 hours ago, The Jokeman said: Really? Flutie's poor play in the last 7 or so games didn't lead to his benching? We're arguing about it 18 years later and that's why Flutie belongs at #1. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted April 5, 2018 Author Share Posted April 5, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: We're arguing about it 18 years later and that's why Flutie belongs at #1. Good point. Perhaps I underrated him a bit. However I feel that people are also underrating the polarizing nature of Doug Whaley Edited April 5, 2018 by BuffaloRush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 If this year's Chosen One ends up being another EJ, you may have a clear-cut winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, BuffaloRush said: Good point. Perhaps I underrated him a bit. However I feel that people are also underrating the polarizing nature of Doug Whaley I might be biased as after we signed him me and a friend created a Flutie Haters website. As at the time we didn't have RJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, BuffaloRush said: Good point. Perhaps I underrated him a bit. However I feel that people are also underrating the polarizing nature of Doug Whaley Johnson also accused Flutie of being the anonymous source in the SI article (back when the magazine was kind of a big deal) that criticized his leadership qualities in the locker room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 CJ Spiller...underutilized OJ Simpson...under investigation Willis McGahee...under drafted Marshawn Lynch...misunderstood Ronnie Harmon... Carwell Gardner...personally, I think Bryan Cox got a bad rep because of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileena Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 This thread is ridiculous. Most of the players are recent. The OP is not too bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted April 6, 2018 Author Share Posted April 6, 2018 7 hours ago, mileena said: This thread is ridiculous. Most of the players are recent. The OP is not too bright. If you actually read my posts, I said these are the most polarizing players to the fan base in 2018. Obviously the more recent players are more topical than guys who played during the 1970’s. Seems like someone else is also not too bright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 On 4/4/2018 at 10:18 AM, BuffaloRush said: I was around but no the boards. It very well could be because that was 20 years ago and the other 4 are more topical. But in 2018, I feel that Bills fans feel way more passionately about Doug Whaley than they do about Flutie Also an overwhelming majority of members here said that Flutie was the best QB since Kelly. I don’t feel he’s anywhere near as polarizing as any of the other 4 The Flutie - Johnson debate was brutal. Much much worse than anything Whaley did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRush Posted April 6, 2018 Author Share Posted April 6, 2018 36 minutes ago, Spiderweb said: The Flutie - Johnson debate was brutal. Much much worse than anything Whaley did. Not so sure about that. There are many Bills fans who are very much for or against Doug Whaley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RochesterRob Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 44 minutes ago, Spiderweb said: The Flutie - Johnson debate was brutal. Much much worse than anything Whaley did. Yep, if the net was as big at that point as it is today this board would have been flooded with "I'm quitting this team" threads. And the drama would have been far more intense than what it was over Whaley or Tyrod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 5 hours ago, BuffaloRush said: If you actually read my posts, I said these are the most polarizing players to the fan base in 2018. Obviously the more recent players are more topical than guys who played during the 1970’s. Seems like someone else is also not too bright If I read the title, it says in franchise history. This means that during the time of their tenure in Buffalo, they were polarizing or afterwards there is reasonable debate about them. For me in no particular order, Kelly- Great QB, who didn't want to be here, drank like a fish, and beat women. OJ- during career had one eye always on Hollywood, post career had one hand one on the knife. Ralph- because he was cheap. RJ/Flutie- the debate lingered for a long time, one QB aged, the other just sucked Tyrod- guy leads team to playoffs first time in almost 20 years, and is still traded to Cleveland. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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