OK...so saw the replay of the game

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

To be fair, I am used to having "tuck rule" horribly abused, even if its not official anymore. See the pantsing that the Bills gave Johnny football, only to have that fumble/TD overturned. It should, absolutely, have been a touchdown.

 

This one, well, strict letter would have borne us out. If that had been ruled incomplete on the first call, that is hard to overturn. I wouldn't have been shocked if it was called back. But eff it, I'll take it.

[RoyBatty is alive]

Can someone expain why the Ryan fumble was not an incomplete pass?

 

That rule I understand, both the spirit of the rule and the rule itself.

 

Now can anyone rationally explain the logic of the "tuck rule" of the "Calvin Johnson" rule, both of those have helped tarnish the game. My favorite is when a receiver gets the ball, rolls out of bounds which is not even part of the playing field but the ball comes out and is no long a catch, absurd.

[ctk232]

Trent Green was a QB, of course he would side with the QB in this call regardless

[cba fan]

it seems to me, since they changed the replay decisions to the league office, fewer plays are being overturned. Perhaps that's just my imagination, though.

From what I have seen around the league this year with outside eyes in NEW YORK OFFICE looking at replay vids it has taken the bias out.

 

Also it seems they are changing some calls that would not have been changed previously. Going with "It appears to be more apparent it should be called that way" instead of staying on the first refs call. This goes against the "it has to be 100% conclusive" before they can change a call. In this Bills game they seemed to follow the need for 100 conclusive before change.

 

Ryans INT for TD was inconclusive. There is a side vid that showed his hand swiped towards the sideline and did not follow through in direction of the ball. So inconclusive. Don't think any call would have been reversed.

Hyde was called correct. He had control even though tip hit ground. However he fell on it also and appeared to trap(not good term more like ball moved ever so lightly as his body weight pushed it.) So inconclusive. Don't think any call would have been reversed.

 

Bills caught a break on last pass play Tre defended. The jersey clearly pulls away from WR as he breaks and Tre was contacting him as ball sailed over his head. ref maybe just could not see the jersey pull and it was pretty slight.

 

Bottom line is if they played the Pats that was PI or holding all day. Even though we would have been livid as pass appeared to be not catchable. Likely they would have called holding then. Of course those other calls always go Pats way also.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Yes I was spending some quality time down at Leguna Beach over the weekend

Nice. Good for you,

 

I enjoyed my week on the Beaches in Florida 2 weeks ago.

Edited October 2, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[Punching Bag]

Can someone expain why the Ryan fumble was not an incomplete pass?

 

The simple explanation is it was not a pass since he did not have control. The ball was "thrown" because his arm was hit and it continued direction arm was going.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

His arm was hit while going backwards, the "hit" forced his hand / arm forward as he lost his grip aka "control" of the ball.

 

That is how I saw it in real time

Edited October 2, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

One of the announcers also stated something about the rules changing slightly that the burden of proof to over rule what was called on the field has gotten higher.

 

 

I thought it was just a case where they let the action on the field play out as it was close, then went to replay which was inconclusive. I'll take it all day long, but that's why they said " the ruling stands" did they not? Did they say confirmed? Maybe they did but it was close and if they called it an incomplete pass on the field I doubt the replay would have changed that either.

[TigerJ]

Regarding the fumble call: I know that if the refs see that a QB's arm has starting moving forward, and them he starts to lose control (whether because an opposing player has hit his arm or whatever) it is normally ruled an incomplete pass. I know the ruling in this case was that the hit by Hughes forced Ryan to lose control, then Ryan, trying to salvage something out of the play, attempted to move his arm forward and turn the start of a fumble into an incomplete pass. The ruling was that he never regained control to be able to attempt a pass. Therefore it was a fumble. Whether or not the call was correct depends on what the rules say, and I don't know the rule.

[Doc]

Regarding the fumble call: I know that if the refs see that a QB's arm has starting moving forward, and them he starts to lose control (whether because an opposing player has hit his arm or whatever) it is normally ruled an incomplete pass. I know the ruling in this case was that the hit by Hughes forced Ryan to lose control, then Ryan, trying to salvage something out of the play, attempted to move his arm forward and turn the start of a fumble into an incomplete pass. The ruling was that he never regained control to be able to attempt a pass. Therefore it was a fumble. Whether or not the call was correct depends on what the rules say, and I don't know the rule.

 

That's the rule. You lose control of it before your arm starts going forwards, which is what happened, it's a fumble.

[John from Riverside]

 

That's the rule. You lose control of it before your arm starts going forwards, which is what happened, it's a fumble.

I seem to remember the announcer saying something to the affect that he controlled it with his finger tips

 

his fingertips never touched the ball

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I seem to remember the announcer saying something to the affect that he controlled it with his finger tips

 

his fingertips never touched the ball

huh? don't you use your finger tips to grip the ball?

 

Sure, when you freeze frame he's got "control" of the ball.

[Boatdrinks]

I seem to remember the announcer saying something to the affect that he controlled it with his finger tips

 

his fingertips never touched the ball

The more I look at that play, it's pretty obvious it was a pass. The ball moved but he never lost control of it. I'm amazed it wasn't overturned but it wasn't upheld. It was rules that the call " stands" . Or inconclusive . It sure looked conclusive that it was a pass or the longest fumble in history. I'm glad the refs blew it in the Bills favor for once , but the call was pretty bad. Put it this way, if it was Tyrod the board would melt down at that call. Edited October 2, 2017 by Boatdrinks

[Kelly the Dog]

The more I look at that play, it's pretty obvious it was a pass. The ball moved but he never lost control of it. I'm amazed it wasn't overturned but it wasn't upheld. It was rules that the call " stands" . Or inconclusive . It sure looked conclusive that it was a pass or the longest fumble in history. I'm glad the refs blew it in the Bills favor for once , but the call was pretty bad. Put it this way, if it was Tyrod the board would melt down at that call.

I was wrong earlier when I said you could see air, but it doesn't change the fact that from behind, the one angle that shows exactly what happened, Hughes clearly hit the ball before the arm came forward, the ball moves, and Ryan clearly pushes it forward with his fingertips and doesn't throw it.

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Kelly the Dog

[Boatdrinks]

I was wrong earlier when I said you could see air, but it doesn't change the fact that from behind, the one angle that shows exactly what happened, Hughes clearly hit the ball before the arm came forward, the ball moves, and Ryan clearly pushes it forward with his fingertips and doesn't throw it.

The ball moved but it never was out of Ryan's control. The call was bad. It wasn't the old empty hand deal. It was technically a forward pass. I'm happy they blew the call, but they blew it.

[Kelly the Dog]

The ball moved but it never was out of Ryan's control. The call was bad. It wasn't the old empty hand deal. It was technically a forward pass. I'm happy they blew the call, but they blew it.

A ball touching one hand's fingertips of a WR or RB would never be considered control. Maybe in both hands because you could be bookending the ball and ARGUABLY be maintaining possession. You don't have possession with only your fingertips of one hand on a moving ball. I don't even think that is debatable.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Kelly the Dog

[Boatdrinks]

A ball touching one hand's fingertips of a WR or RB would never be considered control. Maybe in both hands because you could be bookending the ball and ARGUABLY be maintaining possession. You don't have possession with only your fingertips of one hand on a moving ball. I don't even think that is debatable.

It's clear the ball is no longer moving after the initial contact. It's still in his hand. I'd love to see the opinions here if the roles were reversed. I'm not upset at the call, but the benefit of the refs letting the action play out can't be overstated. There is zero chance if that play is called a pass on the field that it would be reversed on challenge.

[KOKBILLS]

Trent Green. A nobody.

it seems to me, since they changed the replay decisions to the league office, fewer plays are being overturned. Perhaps that's just my imagination, though.

 

I think Tirico made this same point a couple weeks ago...It is interesting...Especially because the easy assumption is it would be the other way around...

[SoTier]

I thought it was just a case where they let the action on the field play out as it was close, then went to replay which was inconclusive. I'll take it all day long, but that's why they said " the ruling stands" did they not? Did they say confirmed? Maybe they did but it was close and if they called it an incomplete pass on the field I doubt the replay would have changed that either.

 

Exactly this. If they'd been called the opposite on the field, those two rulings would have also been "confirmed". That's the way it's been gong all season ... the guys in NY have been reluctant to over rule the guys on the field without clear evidence.

[Doc]

The view straight on shows that Ryan lost control of the ball and was basically swiping it forward.

[Boatdrinks]

Exactly this. If they'd been called the opposite on the field, those two rulings would have also been "confirmed". That's the way it's been gong all season ... the guys in NY have been reluctant to over rule the guys on the field without clear evidence.

Yes, they have. It has been beneficial to the Bills because there often is not clear evidence or camera angles to provide it. I think you mean the calls would " stand" btw, not be confirmed as there wasn't enough evidence. So they stay with the call on the field.

[GoBills808]

Regarding the fumble call: I know that if the refs see that a QB's arm has starting moving forward, and them he starts to lose control (whether because an opposing player has hit his arm or whatever) it is normally ruled an incomplete pass. I know the ruling in this case was that the hit by Hughes forced Ryan to lose control, then Ryan, trying to salvage something out of the play, attempted to move his arm forward and turn the start of a fumble into an incomplete pass. The ruling was that he never regained control to be able to attempt a pass. Therefore it was a fumble. Whether or not the call was correct depends on what the rules say, and I don't know the rule.

I've seen guys lose control of the ball while they're in the throwing motion and it gets ruled incomplete, but that's without being hit on the arm. So if that has anything to do with the rule, it's supposedly stated here:

 

SECTION 1 - FORWARD PASS

ARTICLE 1. DEFINITION

It is a forward pass if:

1. the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s)
2. the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

Note: A ball that is intentionally fumbled and goes forward is a forward pass. A ball that is intentionally muffed, and goes forward or backward, is a batted ball (12-4-1).

Item 1. Forward Movement of Hand. When a player is in control of the ball and is attempting to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass.

1. If, after intentional forward movement of his hand, contact by an opponent materially affects the passer, causing the ball to go backward, it is a forward pass, regardless of where the ball strikes the ground, a player, an official, or anything else.
2. If, after an intentional forward movement of his hand, the passer loses possession of the ball during an attempt to bring it back toward his body, it is a fumble.
3. If the passer loses possession of the ball while attempting to recock his arm, it is a fumble.

...which, if I'm reading it right, doesn't exactly cover the play, since Ryan's intentional forward movement of his hand happened AFTER contact by Hughes materially affected the passer. Thus, I have to believe a fumble caused by a hit to the QB's hand is different from a ball that gets a little squirrley in a QB's hand and causes a bad pass, which I've also seen called incomplete.

But again...why should that make a difference? It doesn't matter whether a RB has the ball hit out or simply drops it on the ground: they're both fumbles. I think they made the wrong call on that play.

[theRalph]

This call was perfectly within the rules. We see, prior to Ryan's hand moving forward, the chop from Hughes, wherein Ryan loses control of the football...it moves independent of his hand. Though Ryan attempts and somewhat succeeds in regaining his grip, he doesn't regain CONTROL of the ball, per the definition of acquiring control. Had the ball not momentarily dislodged, it's called incomplete.

[Scott7975]

The more I look at that play, it's pretty obvious it was a pass. The ball moved but he never lost control of it. I'm amazed it wasn't overturned but it wasn't upheld. It was rules that the call " stands" . Or inconclusive . It sure looked conclusive that it was a pass or the longest fumble in history. I'm glad the refs blew it in the Bills favor for once , but the call was pretty bad. Put it this way, if it was Tyrod the board would melt down at that call.

The ball moving is losing control of the ball. Just like when a receiver goes to the ground and the ball moves its called incomplete because he didn't have control of it.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Scott7975

[Kelly the Dog]

The more I look at that play, it's pretty obvious it was a pass. The ball moved but he never lost control of it. I'm amazed it wasn't overturned but it wasn't upheld. It was rules that the call " stands" . Or inconclusive . It sure looked conclusive that it was a pass or the longest fumble in history. I'm glad the refs blew it in the Bills favor for once , but the call was pretty bad. Put it this way, if it was Tyrod the board would melt down at that call.

On the Micah Hyde call, the rule is, and was perfectly enforced, that the ground can aid your catch if you show clear possession and the ball doesn't move from the contact to the ground. Even though it was inarguably clear the ball hit the ground, Hyde had two hands on it and the ball didn't move. So they rightfully ruled it a catch according to the rules. If the ball would have moved a tiny bit they would have ruled it incomplete because the ball moving indicated no longer having total possession. Same thing with the Ryan play. The fact it moved out of his hand was the reason for the ruling, no longer control and possession.

[Sweats]

Great win..on the road....

 

but who was the commentator that was crying about every call that didnt go the falcons way in this game.....that was downright disturbing to hear him do this......

 

Was he just shocked that a powerhouse like the falcons was getting out physicaled by our bills?

 

So bad and frustrating to listen to

 

 

 

Yeah, the whole game i was getting sick and tired of listening to that guys crying and whining.

[Alphadawg7]

I thought the two video challenges that went the Bills way were very questionable calls.

 

But in a universe where we've spent the past 50 years getting screwed in those situations, I'm glad it was time we got a break...

 

The key in any moment of a questionable call is how the call was originally called on the field. They can't over turn unless there is clear and decisive evidence to over turn the calls. And in all cases, the refs made the right decision on Sunday, including the one that went against the Bills. So it wasn't so much we got a break as it was the call on the field during live play was in our favor, and then there wasn't enough to over turn.

[Real McClappy]

Here's the link with vid in Slow-MO

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/1/16392946/bills-falcons-fumble-matt-ryan-referees

 

IDK man, glad we finally got a break. If this was the other way around though I would say he had control going forward. Way to tough to overturn it though.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Real McCoy

[Boatdrinks]

On the Micah Hyde call, the rule is, and was perfectly enforced, that the ground can aid your catch if you show clear possession and the ball doesn't move from the contact to the ground. Even though it was inarguably clear the ball hit the ground, Hyde had two hands on it and the ball didn't move. So they rightfully ruled it a catch according to the rules. If the ball would have moved a tiny bit they would have ruled it incomplete because the ball moving indicated no longer having total possession. Same thing with the Ryan play. The fact it moved out of his hand was the reason for the ruling, no longer control and possession.

I agree with the Hyde call. However you are still incorrect on the Ryan call. The call was allowed to stand, it was not confirmed.

[Kelly the Dog]

Here's the link with vid in Slow-MO

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/1/16392946/bills-falcons-fumble-matt-ryan-referees

 

IDK man, Glad we finally got a break. If this was the other way around though I would say he had control going forward. Way to tough to overturn it though IMO.

I think that shows he didn't have control. He tries to regain but can't. It he had control the ball would not have gone five yards.

[Boatdrinks]

Here's the link with vid in Slow-MO

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/1/16392946/bills-falcons-fumble-matt-ryan-referees

 

IDK man, Glad we finally got a break. If this was the other way around though I would say he had control going forward. Way to tough to overturn it though IMO.

Exactly my point. The Bills benefitted from the fact the refs are " letting things play out". Often the replay is not conclusive. In this case it was not, giving the Bills a questionable TD to the chagrin of ATL fans. I know I'd be pi$$ed if such a call went against Taylor and the Bills. It looks more like a pass than a fumble. The ball is pretty much in his hands. He doesn't push it forward. Man some can't even admit we probably got away with one. We've been on the wrong end many times.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

The call on the field was Fumble.

 

There was not enough evidence to argue otherwise.

 

We won fair and square

[Kelly the Dog]

I agree with the Hyde call. However you are still incorrect on the Ryan call. The call was allowed to stand, it was not confirmed.

i understand the distinction. They didn't have to make the distinction either way. I see why people arguing it was in his control are saying it, too. He tries to regain possession and he gets his fingers on it. That, to me, my opinion, is clearly non possession by both sight and logic. It didn't need to be stands or confirmed. That happens other times with questionable calls. They call it stands when it's clearly confirmed.

[Utah John]

What Ryan was able to do, was push the ball. He couldn't throw it, which requires his hand to be around the ball and in control of it.

 

The announcers kept saying that Ryan had regained control of the ball. If he had, the ball would have travelled farther and looked like a pass. This wasn't a case where the QB has control, has his arm go forward, and then someone blocks his arm's motion so the ball squirts out. That would have been an incomplete pass. But, nothing like that actually took place. No one interfered with the motion of Ryan's arm going forward. Therefore the reason the ball moved like it did was that it was pushed and not thrown.

[8-8 Forever?]

Green seemed to think that pushing a ball forward = control. It's not. That was a good call.

yeah he didnt have control.. just a fumble forward... great job by Hughes

On the Micah Hyde call, the rule is, and was perfectly enforced, that the ground can aid your catch if you show clear possession and the ball doesn't move from the contact to the ground. Even though it was inarguably clear the ball hit the ground, Hyde had two hands on it and the ball didn't move. So they rightfully ruled it a catch according to the rules. If the ball would have moved a tiny bit they would have ruled it incomplete because the ball moving indicated no longer having total possession. Same thing with the Ryan play. The fact it moved out of his hand was the reason for the ruling, no longer control and possession.

yeah, calls were very close but correct.... the guys on the field see it pretty well

[Doc]

On the Micah Hyde call, the rule is, and was perfectly enforced, that the ground can aid your catch if you show clear possession and the ball doesn't move from the contact to the ground. Even though it was inarguably clear the ball hit the ground, Hyde had two hands on it and the ball didn't move. So they rightfully ruled it a catch according to the rules. If the ball would have moved a tiny bit they would have ruled it incomplete because the ball moving indicated no longer having total possession. Same thing with the Ryan play. The fact it moved out of his hand was the reason for the ruling, no longer control and possession.

 

Yup. The Bert Emanuel rule. He was a former Atlanta Falcon (but was a Buc when the rule was created).

[Section242]

I was shocked to see both the turnover calls go the Bills way. Usually that doesn't happen. Both were close but in end I think they got them right.

 

And yes, Trent Green was abysmal. He was over-emphasizing every little play. "LET ME TELL YOU WHY THIS TWO YARD LOSS IS THE GREATEST TWO YARD LOSS IN THE HISTORY OF EVER!!!" And then he'd pick out someone simply doing their job and emphatically rave about it as if the guy just made the play of the century.

 

Gruden-esque

[The Dean]

To be fair, I am used to having "tuck rule" horribly abused, even if its not official anymore. See the pantsing that the Bills gave Johnny football, only to have that fumble/TD overturned. It should, absolutely, have been a touchdown.

 

This one, well, strict letter would have borne us out. If that had been ruled incomplete on the first call, that is hard to overturn. I wouldn't have been shocked if it was called back. But eff it, I'll take it.

 

 

The thing is, you almost never see this call in the NFL, these days. The arm was coming forward, the ball went forward. Yes, it probably was a legit fumble. It's just hardly ever called that way, in the modern NFL. Glad we caught the break, this time.

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

the only way that call on Ryan's fumble get's reversed is if the name on his jersey changes to Brady.

[Figster]

 

 

The thing is, you almost never see this call in the NFL, these days. The arm was coming forward, the ball went forward. Yes, it probably was a legit fumble. It's just hardly ever called that way, in the modern NFL. Glad we caught the break, this time.

I agree

 

More proof of trying to stay with the ruling on the field unless a mistake is obvious.

 

Helps the flow of the game,

 

I like it...