Turnover on this team is staggering.

[Augie]

If you suck, you want to change, right?

 

Yeah, depth may become an issue.

[White Linen]

you change coaches and schemes and you have to get players to fit those schemes. when you change coaches every 2 years it's hard to get the right players. something the Bills obviously don't understand.

 

Which coach should they have kept longer so they could keep more of the same players? Ridiculous how you have absolutely no control over your negativity.

[BobbyC81]

I won a bet with a friend last year and he owes me a jersey. I have so many former players in my closet its not funny. I even have Hughes, Dareus and Tyrod in terms of current. I am thinking of going with a drought related jersey, but it's proving a bit tricky. Any good suggestions for name plate and number combos? Thinking Drought #17, but it'll quickly become a duct tape jersey as we approach 20 years. Maybe NoPlayoffs 00?

 

Thoughts?

 

My last jersey purchase was for an old-timer/all-timer in Andre Reed

[Tsaikotic]

Who got Rex's truck?? High turnover for the ford also. Two owners in two years. Never did like fords.

He had it painted white and put magnetic Clemson emblems on it all within a week after being fired

[Chandler#81]

Of the 68 players who saw the field on at least one game last year, only 32 remain. And that number may get smaller by opening day against the Jets.

 

I don't know what the league average is, but I think TC is right: turnover is staggering.

If this is true (68), it's less than pervious years where we had 17 players play who weren't on the opening day roster. The amount of street FA's we've seen due to injuries the past few years could make up a 53 man roster by themselves. We got about 12 full games total out of a possible 48 from our 1st two draft picks last year and Dareus. Yes, TD Mike & Gilmore cashed in and our starting Safeties from last Sept are gone, but I don't think it's all that staggering. For perspective, back in the 60's, we had 33 man teams -and we went to 3 straight League title games.

My last jersey purchase was for an old-timer/all-timer in Andre Reed

This is the only way to go. My son has an authentic OJ jersey -which gets lots of attention and I still wear my Chandler#81. Anything else becomes car wash rags after a few years.

[8-8 Forever?]

Of the 68 players who saw the field on at least one game last year, only 32 remain. And that number may get smaller by opening day against the Jets.

 

I don't know what the league average is, but I think TC is right: turnover is staggering.

its pretty much a rebuild restart. so it is what it is. go bills. will be a couple years before the thing makes sense.

[Chandler#81]

its pretty much a rebuild restart. so it is what it is. go bills. will be a couple years before the thing makes sense.

As stated earlier, the offense remains virtually intact (Woods/Glass replaced by productive vets & 2rd pick). With Kyle returning and Shaq up to speed, the DL appears solid and there's considerable talent at LB & CB/Nickle. The primary kicking specialists are new but appear improved. We've been an 8-8 team (again virtually) for 3 seasons with literally poor coaching.

 

I'm not 'pie in the sky' hopeful, but with better management and yes, FEWER injuries, I expect the Bills to be a highly competitive team this season -even with a regime change.

[Best Player Available]

As stated earlier, the offense remains virtually intact (Woods/Glass replaced by productive vets & 2rd pick). With Kyle returning and Shaq up to speed, the DL appears solid and there's considerable talent at LB & CB/Nickle. The primary kicking specialists are new but appear improved. We've been an 8-8 team (again virtually) for 3 seasons with literally poor coaching.I'm not 'pie in the sky' hopeful, but with better management and yes, FEWER injuries, I expect the Bills to be a highly competitive team this season -even with a regime change.

From what I see Bob Woods blocking skills have not been replaced by any of the second/third rate replacement scrubs brought in. Woods blocking was not recoginized by a lot of people. They will be missed. As far as Jones he needs to play a season to gauge his NFL game.

[eball]

From what I see Bob Woods blocking skills have not been replaced by any of the second/third rate replacement scrubs brought in. Woods blocking was not recoginized by a lot of people. They will be missed. As far as Jones he needs to play a season to gauge his NFL game.

 

So if Zay is good early on we should ignore it?

[Rocky Landing]

From what I see Bob Woods blocking skills have not been replaced by any of the second/third rate replacement scrubs brought in. Woods blocking was not recoginized by a lot of people. They will be missed. As far as Jones he needs to play a season to gauge his NFL game.

I didn't realize Holmes was a scrub.

[C.Biscuit97]

In 2014, we were on the brink of being a good football team. Then, the Pegulas hired Rex (not the GM who helped build that team) & everything got set back.

 

Hopefully, they hired well or we'll be doing another reload in a couple of years.

[C.Biscuit97]

Maybe...Taylor would've never be signed and considering Whaleys track record with QBs we would of probably trotted out EJ for another year to see it blow up in our faces.... Again.

We won 7 & 8 games with Tyrod. We win 6-9 with every qb we have.

[JM2009]

We won 7 & 8 games with Tyrod. We win 6-9 with every qb we have.

7 and 8 wins-and TT didn't play the full season either year. Only QB to due better than 8 wins like he had in 2015, was Bledsoe, during this drought. TT plays in that Jacksonville game in 2015-9 wins. If he played in that game last season 8 wins. Should have had 8 wins again with the second Miami game.

[Fan in San Diego]

Simply put, Rex was a disaster hire. With how good the defense was in 2014, it was lunacy to hire a coach who wanted to change that scheme. We should have hired an offensive coach (Hue Jackson would have been ideal) and made Schwartz the highest paid DC in the league.

We should have made Swartz the HC/DC

[hondo in seattle]

You simply can not change head coaches every two years. To much turn over and drafting the wrong defensive player that doesn't fit OUR NEXT coaches defense

 

34- 43-34-43-34

 

Been beating this drum for years

 

I generally agree with you. But there aren't two - and only two - distinct flavors of defensive football in the NFL.

 

In fact, teams run some version of the nickel something like 60% of the time.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

High turnover is expected with a new coaching staff, I expect to start poorly but improve by the end of the year.

[machine gun kelly]

50% is high but always expected when you coaching staff and they run a different scheme. On NFLR, they have quoted often that most NFL teams turn over at least 30% of their team each year for various reasons, and higher when you change coaching staffs.

 

I'm not overly concerned about it. What is harder is these players to learn another new system which is why I'm skeptical we make the playoffs, but the Dolphins did it.

[stuvian]

It's a revolving door for sure. I can't even decide which jersey I'd buy...

 

Obvi Stevie and Knee J were poor choices. I'm now thinking maybe a pegula jersey with 1.4?

don't feel bad. I've got a TT Fathead

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

If you suck, you want to change, right?

 

Yeah, depth may become an issue.

...versus stand pat, lose, and say in the "best interest of continuity, we can't change"......Whaley does deserve credit for churning this roster 24/7/365 to make it better....his counterparts would go into hibernation in mid-November when Buffalo's season was "officially over" and awaken in April from their "slumber"....

[Buffalo86]

I'm concerned about our coin flip depth. We'll have plenty of guys to send out there vs the Panthers in week 2, but what about the other weeks?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

I'm concerned about our coin flip depth. We'll have plenty of guys to send out there vs the Panthers in week 2, but what about the other weeks?

....why?...BIGGER concern should be our cadence call depth with EJ gone..............

[Direhard Fan]

I'm with #81. My glass is always half FULL. I believe TT will impress this year and we make the playoffs barring injury to a name player like McCoy. If Joe were here he would guarantee it.

[Buffalo86]

....why?...BIGGER concern should be our cadence call depth with EJ gone..............

 

Alright, now I'm concerned about two things.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

Alright, now I'm concerned about two things.

....with two 1sts in 2018, we could get 'em back you know............

[Augie]

...versus stand pat, lose, and say in the "best interest of continuity, we can't change"......Whaley does deserve credit for churning this roster 24/7/365 to make it better....his counterparts would go into hibernation in mid-November when Buffalo's season was "officially over" and awaken in April from their "slumber"....

In fairness, I think they peaked their heads out every Groundhogs Day.

 

 

Over, and over, and over....again.

[cba fan]

you change coaches and schemes and you have to get players to fit those schemes. when you change coaches every 2 years it's hard to get the right players. something the Bills obviously don't understand.

Good coaches adapt to the good players they have and fill in as needed.

 

You don't buy McDonalds and start making tacos.

[Punching Bag]

Good coaches adapt to the good players they have and fill in as needed.

 

You don't buy McDonalds and start making tacos.

 

McTaco has a such a nice rings to it just like McDonalds and Moctezuma's Revenge.

[Fan in San Diego]

I'm with #81. My glass is always half FULL. I believe TT will impress this year and we make the playoffs barring injury to a name player like McCoy. If Joe were here he would guarantee it.

Anybody else always think of Thurman Thomas first then have to adjust to Tyrod Taylor? Kinda like metric to imperial conversion?

[eball]

Anybody else always think of Thurman Thomas first then have to adjust to Tyrod Taylor? Kinda like metric to imperial conversion?

 

No, because when Thurman was playing we weren't on message boards.

[Yoho]

 

No, because when Thurman was playing we weren't on message boards.

Actually that is not true. Thurman retired in 2000. The Bills board on Prodigy was going strong in the late 90's. There are a number of people here who remember Bob Lamb and his early efforts at a message board. You could connect up to AOL and make your comments on Flutie vs Johnson

[wilcoam]

2 owners, and 3 HC's, with numerous different OC's and DC's obviously foster a humungous bi-annual roster turnover

And this is normal even with continuity when one side of the ball isn't producing

I mean you really have no choice but to try and change schemes and or coaches to make it more effective

However what will alway burn me is that our Bills didn't consider continuity on the heels of a #2 overall D rating

IE - When a unit plays that well you do everything you can to keep it intact including scheme, coaching, players, and depth

That would have included re-signing Spikes and Searcy and trying to get Schwartz to stay

Sorry but hiring Rex and letting him do what he did has to go down as one of the dumbest owner moves in recent NFL history

 

jc

[Thurman#1]

If we improve over last year it may be due to Rex's loading up the team with his ex-Jets and homeboys. I just did a quick eyeball of the rosters, and there are so many changes it's unbelievable. I hope that the new regime is legit and knows better how to judge talent. I know some of the losses are good players, like Gilmore and Gilislee, but how will we live without Leger Douzable and Idehego (sp)? What about that guy who punched Geno Smith? He's gone too! Will miss him.

 

I see a future in which there are 11 players on the field on every play. I see coaches making challenges based upon real observations and upstairs paying attention. I don't see Marcel Dareus dropping back into coverage. I see Reggie Ragland knocking Gilislee onto his backside. I see Lawson blindsiding Brady and Brady considering retiring in the middle of a game. I see a healthy Sammy Watkins getting 1400 yards and 15 touchdowns.

 

But then again, I just dropped a handful of shrooms.

 

 

The stats are two years old but still very relevant because they show that roster turnover is high for everyone. It's from a reddit:

 

 

"Which teams have the longest average tenure? (League average is 2.263 seasons, between the Ravens and Colts.)

1. Packers: 2.918 seasons
2. Patriots: 2.882
3. Bengals: 2.861
4. Steelers: 2.628
5. Chargers: 2.506
6. 49ers: 2.488
7. Falcons: 2.467
8. Cowboys: 2.455
9. Seahawks: 2.360
10. Vikings: 2.329
11. Saints: 2.329
12. Eagles: 2.324
13. Lions: 2.312
14. Ravens: 2.280
15. Colts: 2.241
16. Dolphins: 2.231
17. Texans: 2.227
18. Panthers: 2.211
19. Bears: 2.194
20. Jets: 2.192
21. Redskins: 2.176
22. Bills: 2.158
23. Cardinals: 2.156
24. Rams: 2.082
25. Chiefs: 2.071
26. Titans: 2.063
27. Broncos: 2.051
28. Raiders: 2.025
29. Giants: 2.011
30. Browns: 1.909
31. Jaguars: 1.853
32. Buccaneers: 1.568

All of my raw data comes from Pro-Football-Reference's yearly roster listings, which I think includes all players that were on a gameday active roster for at least one game in the season."

Turnover is high for everyone. It's the nature of the game that guys at the bottom of the roster have always had extremely high turnover and it's harder to hold on to guys at the top of the roster in the salary cap era. Especially when you're close to the cap. Gilmore's a good example.

I always remember the joke from Seinfeld, "you're basically rooting for the clothes."

It's more so for teams with new coaches and schemes but it's really true for everybody.

We won't know how much turnover there's been till the roster firms up after camp, but we're likely to be somewhere around 70th percentile this year with the cap issues and the new regime.

[Thurman#1]

Good coaches adapt to the good players they have and fill in as needed.

 

You don't buy McDonalds and start making tacos.

 

 

 

That sounds good, but there are plenty of exceptions.

 

Belichick may be the best coach in NFL history, unfortunately. But he has a ton of turnover. He wants and gets a certain kind of player. The Pats went 5-11 in his first year though they'd gone 8-8 the year before under Carroll. He didn't coach guys who didn't fit his system so well that the team kicked butt. He brought in guys who fit his system. And it took him time.

 

Pro Football Reference lists 55 guys on the roster of Carroll's last group, the '99 Pats. In '00 in Belichick's first year, they list 65.

 

Guys gone from Carroll's roster:

 

Terry Allen, Mike Bartrum, Terry Billups, Vincent Brisby, Chris Carter, Rico Clark, Ben Coates, Ferric Collons, Vernon Crawford, Damon Denson, Ed Ellis, Jerry Ellison, Heath Irwin, Steve Israel, Shawn Jefferson, Jeff Kopp, Bob Kuberski, Marty Moore, Sean Morey, Zefross Moss, Todd Rucci, Bernard Russ, Chris Sullivan, Lamont Warren,

 

So 24 of Carroll's 55 were gone. And they won five games. 43.6% turnover and Belichick didn't coach the guys on the roster to greatness. He changed everything and input his systems.

 

The next year, 2001, they list 61 guys. It's easier to count the guys who WERE on that 1999 Carroll roster than those who weren't. The survivors were:

 

 

Drew Bledsoe, Troy Brown, Tedy Bruschi, Terry Glenn, Lee Johnson, Ted Johnson, Tebucky Jones, Ty Law, Willie McGinest, Lawyer Milloy, Brandon Mitchell, Marty Moore, Rod Rutledge, Adam Vinatieri, Damien Woody. Only 15 of 55 remaining. And only the highlighted guys were starters that year, though McGinest missed most of the year, maybe due to an injury or something.

 

Belichick didn't so much coach the leftovers to greatness as he did bring in a group that fit his schemes.

 

 

 

 

 

Not that I'm saying McDermott is the new Belichick. Just that even very good coaches sometimes have major turnover and don't do that well with guys left over from the last era.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Thurman#1

[vorpma]

you change coaches and schemes and you have to get players to fit those schemes. when you change coaches every 2 years it's hard to get the right players. something the Bills obviously don't understand.

Typical response from someone sold on mediocrity and willing to accept it! Rex Ryan came to Buffalo, ran the DC of a top five defense off, the team went backwards to include a pretty good defense and you still cling to the past! Amazing! We get what we deserve.

Actually that is not true. Thurman retired in 2000. The Bills board on Prodigy was going strong in the late 90's. There are a number of people here who remember Bob Lamb and his early efforts at a message board. You could connect up to AOL and make your comments on Flutie vs Johnson

Dixon 22 and Big Mable; great bunch of fans who could engage in intelligent discussion!

Good coaches adapt to the good players they have and fill in as needed.

 

You don't buy McDonalds and start making tacos.

Great post!

[jimmy10]

Last year: "Keep Rex for a third season? Lol, screw continuity."

 

This year: "Omg, staff and roster turnover, why is there no continuity?"

[wilcoam]

Continuity only works when you have something tangible from which to want to continue

Like our current run game

And our our former #2 D unit

Which is why I worry about the change in our blocking scheme

Who do so many NFL HC's and OC's decide to change things that are already working

Should they not focus on what wasn't working and leave what is, alone?

 

Which by the way looking back most BBMB fans did NOT want to continue with Marrone after 2014 and were very very pleased when he resigned

Back then winning 9 games was apparently not good enough, lol

I wasn't one of em and I can now say playing Mon morning QB his resignation really messed up our program

Now folks seem poised to be truly excited about winning 6-7 games?

I love the current mgmt changes but its still hard to be excited considering where we were at by the end of 2014

 

The what ifs aside, hiring Rex was abut the least continuous hiring of the century

The turnover required to run his sub par D system was a complete waste of time

In the process we unfort lost several solid players that he decided were not a fit, Searcy, Cockrell, and Bradham included

I was one of those who argued against his hiring in the first place and that he needed to be booted after the first year

I was drowned out, called silly names, and my football acumen was challenged

Everybody knew better...

Worse many wanted to give him a 3rd year claiming 'continuity'

I've began to despise the word, because in Bills lexicon, it means, continued mediocrity

Fingers crossed our owners made a better choice this time through

 

jc

[vorpma]

Continuity only works when you have something tangible from which to want to continue

Like our current run game

And our our former #2 D unit

Which is why I worry about the change in our blocking scheme

Who do so many NFL HC's and OC's decide to change things that are already working

Should they not focus on what wasn't working and leave what is, alone?

 

Which by the way looking back most BBMB fans did NOT want to continue with Marrone after 2014 and were very very pleased when he resigned

Back then winning 9 games was apparently not good enough, lol

I wasn't one of em and I can now say playing Mon morning QB his resignation really messed up our program

Now folks seem poised to be truly excited about winning 6-7 games?

I love the current mgmt changes but its still hard to be excited considering where we were at by the end of 2014

 

The what ifs aside, hiring Rex was abut the least continuous hiring of the century

The turnover required to run his sub par D system was a complete waste of time

In the process we unfort lost several solid players that he decided were not a fit, Searcy, Cockrell, and Bradham included

I was one of those who argued against his hiring in the first place and that he needed to be booted after the first year

I was drowned out, called silly names, and my football acumen was challenged

Everybody knew better...

Worse many wanted to give him a 3rd year claiming 'continuity'

I've began to despise the word, because in Bills lexicon, it means, continued mediocrity

Fingers crossed our owners made a better choice this time through

 

jc

Awesome post, well stated!

[Formerly Allan in MD]

The turnover at the upper levels is refreshing. McD appears to have a head on his shoulders whereas Ryan clearly had only a mouth.

[wilcoam]

It is indeed very refreshing however because I'm a lifelong Bills fan I am still very cautious

What looks like in the off season of the right approach and saying all the right things means little

If the roster moves don't work out as anticipated and they don't win games

And or there is not a significant improvement in year 2 if year 1 strikes out

I still think there may have been too much roster turnover especially in the secondary

Our pass D was at least average, it was our run D that needed more to be blown up

Though I give em points for recognizing our WR's situation needed a complete overhaul just not sure they did enough

I know patience

Look I like the extra 1st next year

However a free 3rd and free 4th would be even better if we are only gonna win 6-7 games this season

 

jc