What's the point of this team's philosophy?

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

When you throw a pass like that maybe 1-2 times a game does that need to be his strength?

I’ve lost the point of this conversation now. It started with people saying we need a really fast guy because Josh can throw the ball really far. To which I pointed out, like you, that throwing the ball really far is NOT what Josh is asked to do very often l. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

4 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

You have a QB that's a Maserati. He's built for bombs away. But instead of building your offense for that, you build it for plodding, 10 yards at a time max, 10 minute drive offense. So I ask, what is the point?

 

What's the point of having a guy who's designed by nature to bomb the football deep and whose weakness is dink and dunk stuck in an offensive scheme that is built to do just that?

 

Why not offload him for someone who's better suited for that kind of thing if you refuse to play to his strengths? That's what I can't wrap my head around. It makes no sense.

 

I hear where you're coming from and like others have stated I just don't think that type of play is sustainable especially in NY with the crappy weather. We have a plethora of weapons for Allen of all shapes and sizes but I think it's wise to get it in the playmakers hands and let them do the work. It's also not like we have nobody that will be running deep, if you look at Shakirs stats he had 10 targets of 20+ yards and 2 targets of 40+ yards which is identical to Stefon Diggs https://www.rotowire.com/football/player/khalil-shakir-15892 , it doesn't however tell me how many were caught by each but that's a good sign. Also if you look at Curtis Samuel under Joe Brady as OC in 2019/2020, Samuel had 8 targets of 20+ and 1 target of 40+, 12 of 20+ the following year and 2 of 40+ with nobody nearly as talented as Josh so I think the deep ball will still be there but wont be relied upon as much which isn't a terrible thing.

 

Josh Allen is suited for all types of throws not just backyard ball which alot of people call it and hopefully it leads to the best season of his career but I het the fact why people are upset and can't fault them for it. I'm hoping this isn't a wasted year like some are predicting, I'm hoping having a bunch of different guys to throw to instead of force feeding it to 1 guy makes the difference but we shall see.

[MiracleAtRich1393]

4 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

What we needed to replace in the receiver room was drops.  Replace those guys with players that can consistently catch the ball.  Samuel and Coleman don't drop the ball so I like both being added.  Speed receivers while stretching the field only account for 1-2 throws a game.

 

Ray Davis has great hands out of the backfield too, very much on board with emphasizing the hands re: pass catchers we add. Hopefully with all the draft ammo accrued next year we can add an absolute stud hands/speed/route runner on a cheap contract for 5 years and pry the window wide open for Allen's next chapter

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ve lost the point of this conversation now. It started with people saying we need a really fast guy because Josh can throw the ball really far. To which I pointed out, like you, that throwing the ball really far is NOT what Josh is asked to do very often l. 

We agree then.  Sometimes it’s hard to maintain the point when you have multiple people chiming in.

 

 

[SCBills]

2 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

Opposing DCs aren’t stupid. In general they moved to playing a lot of coverages like two deep to take away deep throws down the sidelines. That reduced explosive plays league wide. But I think the problem is that you need to be able to threaten deep or defenses will play more MOFC coverages like C-1 and C-3 that are better against the run and seam routes. No decent DC is going to sit in a C-2 and C-4 all day against a team that can’t reliably threaten deep. 

 

This is why I'd be completely fine if we just signed someone like MVS this summer.  

 

The Offense will funnel through Kincaid, Samuel, Shakir, Coleman and Cook but we could use a guy like MVS to make team's respect the deeper parts of the field. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

50 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The draft brings out the worst in many

Because people want to either be proven right or prove others wrong. But you can’t prove anything until the games are played so there’s a lot of screaming.

 

 

Edited April 29 by Buffalo_Stampede

[julian]

Nobody is playing long ball as a philosophy, NFL defenses have decided to play shell coverage and not allow anything over the top as their philosophy.

 

 That’s not to say the occasional player doesn’t sneak one by, but your offense has to generate yardage from sideline to sideline in the medium to short range areas, exactly where a player like Coleman is going to eat imho.

[PBF81]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The problem with simply crunching the numbers under each of the coaches is that I think in terms of play as a Quarterback 2023 was Josh's worst season since he broke out in 2020. Now I don't put all of that on Josh but I do out a fair amount of it on Josh. Josh has to play better and certainly more consistently. We gave him the best oline he has had and he still made too many bad decisions at times. I don't think the talent around him helped. The coaching change can't have been easy. But I think we need Josh to be better first and foremost. Brady hopefully can help that. But I will tell you when I watched the all22 of his offense vs Dorsey's I am in no doubt who I'd rather have as OC. 

 

Well, we'll see.  Either way, barely beating NE on the merits of a defensive TD, because their offense sucks, while putting up only 20 offensive points, 14 having been from the D setting us up at their 14 also, can be spun anyway we want, but it cannot possibly be spun as having been good.  Our performances on either side were nothing special in that game.  On a side note, NE put up their 1st and 4th best scoring games on our 4th ranked D.  

 

Same for the Chargers who featured an offensive roster of talent that would have rivaled the worst of any team on the season had it been there all season.  Our D also did not play well, nor did our O against their 24th ranked D, and again, we needed a last-minute FG to beat them.  

 

Putting up a mere 14 offensive against Miami, a team we've owned, was the worst offensive output since 2018 in Allen's 7th overall start.  

 

In four of our last five games we didn't even average over 20 PPG offensively.  

 

That's not a good harbinger going into this season.  Then factor in the draft not really assisting that.  Coleman replacing Diggs & Davis isn't going to account for 14 TDs and half of Allen's yards.  

 

Again, if those regular season games under Brady were extrapolated out to a full season, Allen would produce 4,143 Yards, 24 TDs, 17 INTs, 244 YPG, and a rating of 85.5.  If that were to occur no one will be happy as it would be only marginally better than his numbers in 2019 with twice the INTs.  It's a very difficult argument to suggest that Brady was or will be an improvement.  It's also quite possible that the reasons for the positives in his style were due to, not in spite of, Dorsey's influence.  We simply don't know.  We will see.  

 

You  mention "crunching the numbers," but the game is about scoring and moving the ball.  "Down the stretch" when we needed every single win to make the playoffs much less win the division, we played incredibly poorly, on both sides quite frankly.  We played two pretty talentless teams along with Miami, where our offensive performance was the worst since Allen's first game (a loss) to them.  Again, not a good harbinger.  To suggest that The narrative about Brady being so much better than Dorsey simply isn't true from a scoring and ball movement perspective.  

 

I didn't care for Dorsey, but Brady's raw, and whether or not he straightens that out this season, a tall task with a defensive minded head coach breathing down his neck for him to conform to that approach, remains to be seen.  That's the primary problem with our team as most see it, we don't have any particular expertise guiding the offensive side.  But we can't say yeah, we scored fewer points on average, didn't move the ball as well, our QB saw his stats nearly halved in scoring with his efficiency metrics plummeting to near all-time worsts, but the OC is better.  That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, particularly when that QB is the only reason you're doing anything.  

 

Of course the jury's out, so your take may quite possibly be true.  All I'm doing is pointing out the falsehoods and inconsistencies in the established narrative.  

 

 

 

[The Jokeman]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ve never understood this take on Josh Allen. His strength is NOT the deep ball. In fact the deep ball just exposes his well documented weakness…which is accuracy. His strength is throwing the ball hard! To play to his strength he needs receivers who can hang on to his fast ball. 

Josh's strength is his ability to get the ball to WRs quickly. In part due his arm strength, Tom Brady did this with pre snap reads. Josh does to an extent but don't think he sees it same way Tom did. As how many times have we seen Josh miss the open guy and forcing a ball into a tight window (see 2nd down throw to Shakir vs Diggs). That's why we've seen teams play more complex zones vs us which confuses John and causes him to go into hero mode. Toss in playing man on man can spell disaster if you don't cover a guy or you leave Josh a lane to run.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, we'll see.  Either way, barely beating NE on the merits of a defensive TD, because their offense sucks, while putting up only 20 offensive points, 14 having been from the D setting us up at their 14 also, can be spun anyway we want, but it cannot possibly be spun as having been good.  Our performances on either side were nothing special in that game.  On a side note, NE put up their 1st and 4th best scoring games on our 4th ranked D.  

 

Same for the Chargers who featured an offensive roster of talent that would have rivaled the worst of any team on the season had it been there all season.  Our D also did not play well, nor did our O against their 24th ranked D, and again, we needed a last-minute FG to beat them.  

 

Putting up a mere 14 offensive against Miami, a team we've owned, was the worst offensive output since 2018 in Allen's 7th overall start.  

 

In four of our last five games we didn't even average over 20 PPG offensively.  

 

That's not a good harbinger going into this season.  Then factor in the draft not really assisting that.  Coleman replacing Diggs & Davis isn't going to account for 14 TDs and half of Allen's yards.  

 

Again, if those regular season games under Brady were extrapolated out to a full season, Allen would produce 4,143 Yards, 24 TDs, 17 INTs, 244 YPG, and a rating of 85.5.  If that were to occur no one will be happy as it would be only marginally better than his numbers in 2019 with twice the INTs.  It's a very difficult argument to suggest that Brady was or will be an improvement.  It's also quite possible that the reasons for the positives in his style were due to, not in spite of, Dorsey's influence.  We simply don't know.  We will see.  

 

You  mention "crunching the numbers," but the game is about scoring and moving the ball.  "Down the stretch" when we needed every single win to make the playoffs much less win the division, we played incredibly poorly, on both sides quite frankly.  We played two pretty talentless teams along with Miami, where our offensive performance was the worst since Allen's first game (a loss) to them.  Again, not a good harbinger.  To suggest that The narrative about Brady being so much better than Dorsey simply isn't true from a scoring and ball movement perspective.  

 

I didn't care for Dorsey, but Brady's raw, and whether or not he straightens that out this season, a tall task with a defensive minded head coach breathing down his neck for him to conform to that approach, remains to be seen.  That's the primary problem with our team as most see it, we don't have any particular expertise guiding the offensive side.  But we can't say yeah, we scored fewer points on average, didn't move the ball as well, our QB saw his stats nearly halved in scoring with his efficiency metrics plummeting to near all-time worsts, but the OC is better.  That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, particularly when that QB is the only reason you're doing anything.  

 

Of course the jury's out, so your take may quite possibly be true.  All I'm doing is pointing out the falsehoods and inconsistencies in the established narrative.  

 

 

To be clear I am not disputing what you say about production. I am adding one caveat to it that regardless of who the OC is we need Josh to have a better year than 2023. But my initial response was to your point on creativity. I think the only time I have actually agreed that the problem was a lack of creativity was under Dorsey. I think at one point just before he was fired we were running the 2nd least pre-snap motion in the league and were the most predictable in our personnel groupings v run / pass split. It was vanilla offense that said "our guys are better than your guys" and we don't have an offense with the talent level to do that. 

[Process]

Having a strong arm doesn't make you a great deep ball thrower. 

 

Josh's deep ball is, at best, inconsistent .

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

You're right. Waiting for a title for forty years is really impetuous and lacking in patience

 

[dave mcbride]

16 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, we'll see.  Either way, barely beating NE on the merits of a defensive TD, because their offense sucks, while putting up only 20 offensive points, 14 having been from the D setting us up at their 14 also, can be spun anyway we want, but it cannot possibly be spun as having been good.  Our performances on either side were nothing special in that game.  On a side note, NE put up their 1st and 4th best scoring games on our 4th ranked D.  

 

Same for the Chargers who featured an offensive roster of talent that would have rivaled the worst of any team on the season had it been there all season.  Our D also did not play well, nor did our O against their 24th ranked D, and again, we needed a last-minute FG to beat them.  

 

Putting up a mere 14 offensive against Miami, a team we've owned, was the worst offensive output since 2018 in Allen's 7th overall start.  

 

In four of our last five games we didn't even average over 20 PPG offensively.  

 

That's not a good harbinger going into this season.  Then factor in the draft not really assisting that.  Coleman replacing Diggs & Davis isn't going to account for 14 TDs and half of Allen's yards.  

 

Again, if those regular season games under Brady were extrapolated out to a full season, Allen would produce 4,143 Yards, 24 TDs, 17 INTs, 244 YPG, and a rating of 85.5.  If that were to occur no one will be happy as it would be only marginally better than his numbers in 2019 with twice the INTs.  It's a very difficult argument to suggest that Brady was or will be an improvement.  It's also quite possible that the reasons for the positives in his style were due to, not in spite of, Dorsey's influence.  We simply don't know.  We will see.  

 

You  mention "crunching the numbers," but the game is about scoring and moving the ball.  "Down the stretch" when we needed every single win to make the playoffs much less win the division, we played incredibly poorly, on both sides quite frankly.  We played two pretty talentless teams along with Miami, where our offensive performance was the worst since Allen's first game (a loss) to them.  Again, not a good harbinger.  To suggest that The narrative about Brady being so much better than Dorsey simply isn't true from a scoring and ball movement perspective.  

 

I didn't care for Dorsey, but Brady's raw, and whether or not he straightens that out this season, a tall task with a defensive minded head coach breathing down his neck for him to conform to that approach, remains to be seen.  That's the primary problem with our team as most see it, we don't have any particular expertise guiding the offensive side.  But we can't say yeah, we scored fewer points on average, didn't move the ball as well, our QB saw his stats nearly halved in scoring with his efficiency metrics plummeting to near all-time worsts, but the OC is better.  That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, particularly when that QB is the only reason you're doing anything.  

 

Of course the jury's out, so your take may quite possibly be true.  All I'm doing is pointing out the falsehoods and inconsistencies in the established narrative.  

 

 

 

If you're going to evaluate the Bills offense under Brady and not include the two playoff games, you're doing it wrong, simply put. They HAVE to be included for the simple reason that they're the most important games! And they're against playoff teams! Allen had 7 total TDs and zero turnovers in those two games and the Bills averaged 368 yards and 27.5 points yards despite the kicker missing 3 FGs. 

Edited April 29 by dave mcbride

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

If you're going to evaluate the Bills offense under Brady and not include the two playoff games, you're doing it wrong, simply put. The HAVE to be included for the simple reason that they're the most important games! And they're against playoff teams! Allen had 7 total TDs and zero turnovers in those two games and the Bills averaged 368 yards and 27.5 points yards despite the kicker missing 3 FGs. 

The game plan and execution on offense vs KC in the playoffs was Brady's best work bar none. And realistically it could only have been done w a QB like Allen. 

 

I do believe that is the style this team wants to play at this point. Unfortunately as shown by the result even a perfectly executed ball control game script doesn't beat the Chiefs in the playoffs.

[Don Otreply]

   Being the mad bomber offense is fun, but you can’t be a virtually  one demential offense and win it all.

   Look at Tom F ing Brady, he and his teams dinked and dunked the leagues pants off and won it all repeatedly, until Josh incorporates a bit more of a Brady style into his craft he and Buffalo are likely not going to win the super Bowl.
      Mahomes uses the dink and dunk a lot of the time, he’s won three now , notice a trend here? Sure Brady then and Mahomes now throw the long ball, but it’s never been eithers bread and butter, Josh seemingly for whatever reason doesn’t embrace this winning method, if and when Josh adds this aspect to his game the team will be virtually unbeatable. 
   

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

Well, we'll see.  Either way, barely beating NE on the merits of a defensive TD, because their offense sucks, while putting up only 20 offensive points, 14 having been from the D setting us up at their 14 also, can be spun anyway we want, but it cannot possibly be spun as having been good.  Our performances on either side were nothing special in that game.  On a side note, NE put up their 1st and 4th best scoring games on our 4th ranked D.  

 

Same for the Chargers who featured an offensive roster of talent that would have rivaled the worst of any team on the season had it been there all season.  Our D also did not play well, nor did our O against their 24th ranked D, and again, we needed a last-minute FG to beat them.  

 

Putting up a mere 14 offensive against Miami, a team we've owned, was the worst offensive output since 2018 in Allen's 7th overall start.  

 

In four of our last five games we didn't even average over 20 PPG offensively.  

 

That's not a good harbinger going into this season.  Then factor in the draft not really assisting that.  Coleman replacing Diggs & Davis isn't going to account for 14 TDs and half of Allen's yards.  

 

Again, if those regular season games under Brady were extrapolated out to a full season, Allen would produce 4,143 Yards, 24 TDs, 17 INTs, 244 YPG, and a rating of 85.5.  If that were to occur no one will be happy as it would be only marginally better than his numbers in 2019 with twice the INTs.  It's a very difficult argument to suggest that Brady was or will be an improvement.  It's also quite possible that the reasons for the positives in his style were due to, not in spite of, Dorsey's influence.  We simply don't know.  We will see.  

 

You  mention "crunching the numbers," but the game is about scoring and moving the ball.  "Down the stretch" when we needed every single win to make the playoffs much less win the division, we played incredibly poorly, on both sides quite frankly.  We played two pretty talentless teams along with Miami, where our offensive performance was the worst since Allen's first game (a loss) to them.  Again, not a good harbinger.  To suggest that The narrative about Brady being so much better than Dorsey simply isn't true from a scoring and ball movement perspective.  

 

I didn't care for Dorsey, but Brady's raw, and whether or not he straightens that out this season, a tall task with a defensive minded head coach breathing down his neck for him to conform to that approach, remains to be seen.  That's the primary problem with our team as most see it, we don't have any particular expertise guiding the offensive side.  But we can't say yeah, we scored fewer points on average, didn't move the ball as well, our QB saw his stats nearly halved in scoring with his efficiency metrics plummeting to near all-time worsts, but the OC is better.  That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, particularly when that QB is the only reason you're doing anything.  

 

Of course the jury's out, so your take may quite possibly be true.  All I'm doing is pointing out the falsehoods and inconsistencies in the established narrative.  

 

 

 

 

I think the time of possession metric can be somewhat overrated...  However... in games against Jax, cincy, and Denver - Buffalo had substantial disadvantages on time of possession.  And those were games where our defense looked the most beaten. 

 

Either from inability to run the ball against the jaguars and bengals, to the turnover fest against denver, that was something that they prioritized under brady.  

 

Usually improvements on TOP are attributed to a few things though - 

• More effective run game
• Improved 3rd/4th down conversions
• Defensive stops/takeaways 

21 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The game plan and execution on offense vs KC in the playoffs was Brady's best work bar none. And realistically it could only have been done w a QB like Allen. 

 

I do believe that is the style this team wants to play at this point. Unfortunately as shown by the result even a perfectly executed ball control game script doesn't beat the Chiefs in the playoffs.

 

The defense was able to get 2 stops... and 0 entering the 4th quarter.  It's very difficult to win when you don't get stops. 

[90sBills]

5 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

I do worry that the front office is not paying to Allen's strengths.  Allen does not like the short game.  He loses patience with it too easily.  It also requires a lot of pre-snap reads and ball placement which not his forte.  Allen displayed more patience at the end of last season, maybe he will keep it up.

The short methodical game is where championships are won. I agree with you on all the reasons that’s not where Allen excels. But he has to improve in this area if the Bills are to ever win one. 

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

This is why I'd be completely fine if we just signed someone like MVS this summer.  

 

The Offense will funnel through Kincaid, Samuel, Shakir, Coleman and Cook but we could use a guy like MVS to make team's respect the deeper parts of the field. 

 

I don’t know how much that will help because I don’t see an addition like MVS getting on the field much. Here’s where my heads at: If I am a DC and the Bills bring in 21 personnel with Coleman as a WR, then I’m only worried about one WR getting deep. I’m keeping the defense in a coverage that can be aggressive against the run, short to intermediate passing game and getting to the QB. If Coleman can excel at making contested catches downfield then that would change things, but that’s tough to do. Or maybe we just move back to more 11. 

[Warcodered]

I could have sworn we bombed the ***** out of teams in 2020, scared the ***** out of them, and they have defended that part of the field ever since.

[TheWeatherMan]

It’s hard to “bombs away” with 50mph swirling winds, snow, and sub freezing temperatures.  At least Brady seems to understand that in order to win in Orchard Park, NY you need a running game and an elite short to intermediate game.  This is why I thought Dorsey was a Jack A$$ for trying to build a dome offense, and never should have been hired as the OC!