What if Allen and Mahomes swapped exact situations?

[SaulGoodman]

My guess is Allen would have a couple SB appearances and maybe one ring. 

Year by year…

 

2017 - Allen sits behind Alex Smith

2018 - Still raw and developing, Allen is surrounded by a lot of offensive talent but arguably the worst defense in the league. Probably a pretty solid season but no ring. 
2019 - Allen probably would’ve had a good shot at reaching the Super Bowl.

2020 - Allen and the Chiefs host Mahomes and Buffalo in the AFCC. Allen probably wins, then loses to Tampa in the SB. Can’t overcome a third string OL and receivers that drop everything. 
2021 - Mahomes wins the 13 seconds game.

2022 - If Allen couldn’t score on the Bengals with Buffalo, he probably wouldn’t have had much luck with a high ankle sprain and a WR corps of MVS, Skyy Moore and Marcus Kemp. 
2023 - Allen loses in divisional in Buffalo

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Swap the head coaches not the QBs. 

To be fair to McDermott, which I rarely am, Reid was a bust in Philadelphia too. He choked worse than McDermott ever did in Philadelphia. 

Maybe McDermott figures it out. Maybe he doesn't.  No matter what we think Pegula seems committed to him. We will see just how committed if they have another early playoff exit. 

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

2021 - Mahomes wins the 13 seconds game.

 

Mahomes throws a slant to, uh, Isaiah McKenzie who runs 60 yards for a go ahead TD with 1 minute remaining. Sounds about right.

 

Edited March 13 by HappyDays

[HT02]

19 hours ago, FireChans said:

What if Peyton Manning and Tom Brady swapped?

 

Brady would still be the GOAT.

 

Mahomes is the GOAT.

GOAT is greatest of all time; both could not be the greatest.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

If Mahomes was saddled with McD, I don’t think he’d have a SB. He’s just too big of an obstacle. 

[SaulGoodman]

40 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

If Mahomes was saddled with McD, I don’t think he’d have a SB. He’s just too big of an obstacle. 

 

And yet he reached the playoffs in his first season with a mediocre roster and Tyrod Taylor. 

Why is he such a big obstacle in your mind?

[Success]

5 minutes ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

And yet he reached the playoffs in his first season with a mediocre roster and Tyrod Taylor. 

Why is he such a big obstacle in your mind?

 

That was one of the biggest "back into the playoffs" stories in NFL history.

 

You generally give no context to the counter-points you try to make.

 

12 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

My guess is Allen would have a couple SB appearances and maybe one ring. 

Year by year…

 

2017 - Allen sits behind Alex Smith

2018 - Still raw and developing, Allen is surrounded by a lot of offensive talent but arguably the worst defense in the league. Probably a pretty solid season but no ring. 
2019 - Allen probably would’ve had a good shot at reaching the Super Bowl.

2020 - Allen and the Chiefs host Mahomes and Buffalo in the AFCC. Allen probably wins, then loses to Tampa in the SB. Can’t overcome a third string OL and receivers that drop everything. 
2021 - Mahomes wins the 13 seconds game.

2022 - If Allen couldn’t score on the Bengals with Buffalo, he probably wouldn’t have had much luck with a high ankle sprain and a WR corps of MVS, Skyy Moore and Marcus Kemp. 
2023 - Allen loses in divisional in Buffalo

 

How does Mahomes win the 13 seconds game?

 

Does he rush out to tell the ST unit to squib it at the end?

 

[LarryMadman]

5 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Swap the head coaches not the QBs. 

To be fair to McDermott, which I rarely am, Reid was a bust in Philadelphia too. He choked worse than McDermott ever did in Philadelphia. 

Maybe McDermott figures it out. Maybe he doesn't.  No matter what we think Pegula seems committed to him. We will see just how committed if they have another early playoff exit. 

That's just wrong, Reid did not choke worse in Philly than McDermott has. 4 straight NFCC games and a SB appearance with D McNabb says otherwise.

[SaulGoodman]

3 hours ago, Success said:

 

That was one of the biggest "back into the playoffs" stories in NFL history.

 

You generally give no context to the counter-points you try to make.

 

 

How does Mahomes win the 13 seconds game?

 

Does he rush out to tell the ST unit to squib it at the end?

 

 

You seem to think there's nothing more that Allen could have done in that game, but Buffalo punted on about half their possessions (4 of 9). KC punted on 2 of 11. It's Mahomes that had to be nearly flawless, because his defense was blowing coverages constantly and leaving receivers open by a mile. Plus his kicker missed two easy kicks. 

 

[Success]

1 minute ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

You seem to think there's nothing more that Allen could have done in that game, but Buffalo punted on about half their possessions (4 of 9). KC punted on 2 of 11. It's Mahomes that had to be nearly flawless, because his defense was blowing coverages constantly and leaving receivers open by a mile. Plus his kicker missed two easy kicks. 

 

 

So, Mahomes gets the kicker excuse for that game, but JA doesn't get it for the game this past January. Got it.

 

Most people thought Allen played better than Mahomes that game. It was close & they both played great - but there really isn't a case for Mahomes winning that game for the Bills if he had been their QB.

 

[SaulGoodman]

2 hours ago, Success said:

 

So, Mahomes gets the kicker excuse for that game, but JA doesn't get it for the game this past January. Got it.

 

Why would I make excuses for a win? Just pointing out that he had plenty to overcome in that game and had to be practically flawless. 
 

As for January, sure, that missed kick hurt their chances. Never said otherwise. Although a kick in the mid-40s for a weak kicker is different than one of the league’s best missing two chip shots. 

 

2 hours ago, Success said:

 

Most people thought Allen played better than Mahomes that game. It was close & they both played great - but there really isn't a case for Mahomes winning that game for the Bills if he had been their QB.

 

Most people think Mahomes is a better QB than Allen. You pick and choose when you want to listen to most people. 
 

Why would there not be a case for Mahomes winning that game for Buffalo? He’d be facing a weaker defense that repeatedly blew coverage and left Diggs or Davis open by a mile. If you thought they picked on Klein, imagine what Mahomes and better receivers would have done to Sorenson, Niemann, and Hughes. 

Edited March 14 by SaulGoodman

[Billl]

3 hours ago, Success said:

 

So, Mahomes gets the kicker excuse for that game, but JA doesn't get it for the game this past January.

ICYMI, Mahomes overcame the two misses and won the game.

[Gunsgoodtime]

On 3/12/2024 at 1:55 PM, first_and_ten said:

 

What if the only difference between the Chiefs and the Bills were the quarterbacks for the last 4 years, Imagine Josh Allen on the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes on the Bills. It's my opinion that the Chiefs would still have won at least 2, possibly all 3 Super Bowls. I think the Bills still come up short even with Mahomes. I think Josh Allen would be talked about as the Goat instead of Mahomes. Organizations help make a player a champion, and the Chiefs organization is better than the Bills. Just one man's opinion, a longsuffering Bills fan.  😔

Agree 100%.  Coaching/GM is the major difference, not the QBS 

[Success]

1 hour ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Why would I make excuses for a win? Just pointing out that he had plenty to overcome in that game and had to be practically flawless. 
 

As for January, sure, that missed kick hurt their chances. Never said otherwise. Although a kick in the mid-40s for a weak kicker is different than one of the league’s best missing two chip shots. 

Most people think Mahomes is a better QB than Allen. You pick and choose when you want to listen to most people. 
 

Why would there not be a case for Mahomes winning that game for Buffalo? He’d be facing a weaker defense that repeatedly blew coverage and left Diggs or Davis open by a mile. If you thought they picked on Klein, imagine what Mahomes and better receivers would have done to Sorenson, Niemann, and Hughes. 

 

Ah, yes.   The KC defense just laid down for Allen.  Unlike what the Bills defense did for Mahomes this past January.  And it was quite a bit more than just "picking on Klein."  Half the Bills D was out or hurt.

 

I'm trying to imagine how much more spectacular Mahomes would have been than Allen if he was on the Bills for the 13 seconds game. I'm not able to muster much.  Allen was unreal that game.  If the Bills win that coin toss, NFL history is probably a bit different.

 

You've got 3 Super Bowls, and the consensus top QB in the league.  Some even say GOAT.  The Bills haven't won a thing.  Not sure why you need the vote of confidence for Mahomes from l'il ol' me.  

 

I'm never going to wish the Bills had Mahomes instead of Allen.  Sorry 'bout that.

 

Edited March 14 by Success

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 3/12/2024 at 1:58 PM, BBFL said:

This has been discussed to the extreme here… Josh is winning at least one MVP and multiple Lombardi’s. 
 

The other coin? Who knows. Pat would have walked into a sh-t scenario like Josh did. Maybe he makes it? Maybe he doesn’t. The sure thing is, again, the Chiefs and Josh being the success they have been. 

 

Reality is our guy is just as valuable and dominant as Pat without the accolades. 

Josh did not walk into a “sh-t scenario.” He was developed perfectly by Daboll. Ideally, he wouldn’t have started year 1, but by his 2nd he had serviceable skill positions along w/ a pretty good defense. Things could’ve been a million times worse. I thought the coaching staff did wonderful and obviously other teams did as well considering how quickly Daboll & Schoen were snatched up. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

15 hours ago, LarryMadman said:

That's just wrong, Reid did not choke worse in Philly than McDermott has. 4 straight NFCC games and a SB appearance with D McNabb says otherwise.

Saying McDermott choked worse than Reid did in Philly is HIGHLY debatable. McNabb was a very good QB, I’m not sure where the narrative came from that says otherwise. Reid also had Terrell Owens, Brian Dawkins, Brian Westbrook, Jason Peters, Lesean McCoy, Troy Vincent, Trent Cole, Lito Sheppard, and Jon Runyan as well. Plenty of HOF talent there w/ a slew of solid starters and still didn’t get the job done. Other than Josh Allen & Diggs (during the non-TO years) his overall talent was superior than anything McD has had in Buffalo so far. I am not letting him off the hook by any means, but that statement is total crap. Any serious NFL in the 2000s knows what I am talking about. 

[papazoid]

josh would have won 5 super bowls in a row !

 

kc has better coaching

kc has better team

[Billsfanatic8989]

Impossible to answer. You have to tke coaching and personnel around QB's into the equation. 

[ToGoGo]

11 hours ago, Success said:

 

Ah, yes.   The KC defense just laid down for Allen.  Unlike what the Bills defense did for Mahomes this past January.  And it was quite a bit more than just "picking on Klein."  Half the Bills D was out or hurt.

 

I'm trying to imagine how much more spectacular Mahomes would have been than Allen if he was on the Bills for the 13 seconds game. I'm not able to muster much.  Allen was unreal that game.  If the Bills win that coin toss, NFL history is probably a bit different.

 

You've got 3 Super Bowls, and the consensus top QB in the league.  Some even say GOAT.  The Bills haven't won a thing.  Not sure why you need the vote of confidence for Mahomes from l'il ol' me.  

 

I'm never going to wish the Bills had Mahomes instead of Allen.  Sorry 'bout that.

 

He needs it because Chiefs fans see with their own eyes that Allen is better. They’re insecure. 

[BBFL]

3 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Josh did not walk into a “sh-t scenario.” He was developed perfectly by Daboll. Ideally, he wouldn’t have started year 1, but by his 2nd he had serviceable skill positions along w/ a pretty good defense. Things could’ve been a million times worse. I thought the coaching staff did wonderful and obviously other teams did as well considering how quickly Daboll & Schoen were snatched up. 

That was Daboll’s return to the NFL. Hardly anyone pegged him to have the success he did with Josh. Couple that with an OLine of Dawkins/Ducasse/Bodine/Miller/Mills, throwing to Kelvin Benjamin/Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Andre Holmes/Charles Clay…

 

The only good thing on that roster was Shady and a developing LT in Dawkins… Who everyone continuously cried should be a guard…

 

It worked out. If you believe that’s a measure of quality to develop perfectly under then you should have absolutely no qualms or grievances with what he’s working with now. 
 

Pat walked into:

Hunt/Williams/Kelce/Hill/Chris Conley/Demarcus Robinson/Sammy Watkins, behind an OLine of Eric Fisher/Cam Irving/Mitch Morse/Wylie/Mitch Schwartz… all the while coached by Andy Reid, who had the credentials even with just the Chiefs: Playoffs 4 of his first 5 seasons there prior to Mahomes taking over. 
 

Compare the 2 and I’d say that absolutely is a ***** scenario to walk into. The counter point is what, that you stated, Josh had a pretty good defense? So did the Chiefs…

 

The coaching staff did wonderful, no doubt but the struggle to get where we were in terms of roster quality, on field product and Josh’s development make it incomparable. 
 

Also, to add, Pat was a pretty polished QB coming out of college with  accolades and records to boot… Josh was, what? A project? Even at that standard I’d go out on a limb and say Mahomie would have struggled. Daboll or not. 
 

2¢

Edited March 14 by BBFL

[without a drought]

Josh's brother would be a jerk.

[SaulGoodman]

29 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

He needs it because Chiefs fans see with their own eyes that Allen is better. They’re insecure. 

 

It's not KC bias if every time you turn on the TV, a national analyst is calling Mahomes the most talented QB ever. Frankly, a lot of the media goes further in praising him than I do. 

[harmonkillebrew]

Mahomes is clutch, consistently clutch. Allen is not. He's had some good clutch moments, but not as consistently as Mahomes.

Allen would probably have won a SB with KC by now, but it wouldn't be as one-sided in the playoffs as it currently is

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

15 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

You seem to think there's nothing more that Allen could have done in that game, but Buffalo punted on about half their possessions (4 of 9). KC punted on 2 of 11. It's Mahomes that had to be nearly flawless, because his defense was blowing coverages constantly and leaving receivers open by a mile. Plus his kicker missed two easy kicks. 

 

 

It's not like Butker missed a couple of 30 yard FGs. He missed a PAT and a 50 yard FG at the end of the 1st half (hardly an 'easy' kick). 

 

 

 

[cle23]

On 3/12/2024 at 2:34 PM, Sweats said:

Honestly, as much as JA will win us games, he will also lose some due to his sporadic undisciplined improv playing style. I mean, it's fun to watch as fans, but it just has to be a nightmare for the team sometimes.

 

This is my thought on it as well.  It's so hard to sat because Allen could very well be dominant like he was vs KC in the 13 second game, or he could have a game where he turns it over 2-3 times and in the playoffs, that gets you sent home.  Now obviously ANY QB can have a bad day, Mahomes included, but Allen plays much more reckless, which can be amazingly good, but can also lead to a very bad game here and there too.

[Sweats]

3 minutes ago, cle23 said:

 

This is my thought on it as well.  It's so hard to sat because Allen could very well be dominant like he was vs KC in the 13 second game, or he could have a game where he turns it over 2-3 times and in the playoffs, that gets you sent home.  Now obviously ANY QB can have a bad day, Mahomes included, but Allen plays much more reckless, which can be amazingly good, but can also lead to a very bad game here and there too.

 

 

 

Well yeah, JA will win us games and he will lose us games as well. I suppose we have to take the good with the bad in either case, however, no one can ever say he isn't electric on the field.

[SaulGoodman]

12 hours ago, Success said:

 

Ah, yes.   The KC defense just laid down for Allen.  Unlike what the Bills defense did for Mahomes this past January.  And it was quite a bit more than just "picking on Klein."  Half the Bills D was out or hurt.

 

I'm trying to imagine how much more spectacular Mahomes would have been than Allen if he was on the Bills for the 13 seconds game. I'm not able to muster much.  Allen was unreal that game.  If the Bills win that coin toss, NFL history is probably a bit different.

 

Not to take away from the game he had, but again, they punted on almost half their possessions. The scoring flurry didn't happen until very late in the game. So obviously the offense and Allen could have done more. It's not like they were facing an elite defense. They were facing a defense with as many or more holes as the one KC faced in January. Sorenson, Niemann, Hitchens and Hughes were massive liabilities and easy for a quality QB to exploit. They didn't "lie down," but they might as well have. Numerous blown coverages, WRs running wide open, and a DB falling down on 4th and 15, leaving Davis high school open for the go-ahead score. 

 

12 hours ago, Success said:

 

You've got 3 Super Bowls, and the consensus top QB in the league.  Some even say GOAT.  The Bills haven't won a thing.  Not sure why you need the vote of confidence for Mahomes from l'il ol' me.  

 

I'm never going to wish the Bills had Mahomes instead of Allen.  Sorry 'bout that.

 

 

Never expected you to say otherwise. You quoted me and I responded. 

Edited March 14 by SaulGoodman

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, cle23 said:

 

This is my thought on it as well.  It's so hard to sat because Allen could very well be dominant like he was vs KC in the 13 second game, or he could have a game where he turns it over 2-3 times and in the playoffs, that gets you sent home.  Now obviously ANY QB can have a bad day, Mahomes included, but Allen plays much more reckless, which can be amazingly good, but can also lead to a very bad game here and there too.

 

Allen has the 7th lowest playoff INT percentage of all time (minimum 100 attempts). Mahomes is 8th.

 

The difference in playoff success between the two is that Mahomes has had arguably two or three Hall of Fame teammates at any one time and a Hall of Fame coach. Allen hasn't had a single one.

[SaulGoodman]

22 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

It's not like Butker missed a couple of 30 yard FGs. He missed a PAT and a 50 yard FG at the end of the 1st half (hardly an 'easy' kick). 

 

 

 

 

Ah, you're right. I mis-remembered. Definitely doesn't qualify as an "easy" kick, although Butker rarely misses those. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Josh did not walk into a “sh-t scenario.” He was developed perfectly by Daboll. Ideally, he wouldn’t have started year 1, but by his 2nd he had serviceable skill positions along w/ a pretty good defense. Things could’ve been a million times worse. I thought the coaching staff did wonderful and obviously other teams did as well considering how quickly Daboll & Schoen were snatched up. 

‘Ideally’ he wouldn’t have started but he did start his first season with one of the worst supporting casts I’ve ever seen a rookie qb have lol I’m struggling to see how things could’ve been any worse it was the ultimate trial by fire 😂. Wr1 was kelvin benjamin who was terrible and cut midseason 

 

the situation mahomes stepped into was farrrrrr better and I don’t think it’s even remotely debatable.  I think josh made Daboll a household name much more than the reverse and Daboll’s time with the giants will likely prove that 

Edited March 14 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Allen has the 7th lowest playoff INT percentage of all time (minimum 100 attempts). Mahomes is 8th.

 

The difference in playoff success between the two is that Mahomes has had arguably two or three Hall of Fame teammates at any one time and a Hall of Fame coach. Allen hasn't had a single one.

The other difference is that Allen throws away a couple games during the regular season that costs us byes and #1 seeds. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Allen has the 7th lowest playoff INT percentage of all time (minimum 100 attempts). Mahomes is 8th.

 

The difference in playoff success between the two is that Mahomes has had arguably two or three Hall of Fame teammates at any one time and a Hall of Fame coach. Allen hasn't had a single one.

I can’t believe spagnuolo doesn’t get more credit for the chiefs success haha their playoff defense is insanely clutch every game that terrible Daniel Sorensen doesn’t get forced into the lineup 

 

surprising he never got another shot at hc 

Just now, FireChans said:

The other difference is that Allen throws away a couple games during the regular season that costs us byes and #1 seeds. 

This I would be 100% behind if mahomes didn’t do exactly that against the raiders this year 😂. He pretty much solo lost that game 

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I can’t believe spagnuolo doesn’t get more credit for the chiefs success haha their playoff defense is insanely clutch every game that terrible Daniel Sorensen doesn’t get forced into the lineup 

 

surprising he never got another shot at hc 

This I would be 100% behind if mahomes didn’t do exactly that against the raiders this year 😂. He pretty much solo lost that game 

Oh this year for sure. 
 

But in previous years, we would somehow beat KC in the regular season, and still end up the 2 seed or lower because Allen dropped a couple games and the Chiefs would be hosting the AFCCG.

 

I know folks don’t want to hear that, but if the Bills had playoff homefield for like 6 years straight, we probably have broken through by now.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

30 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Allen has the 7th lowest playoff INT percentage of all time (minimum 100 attempts). Mahomes is 8th.

 

The difference in playoff success between the two is that Mahomes has had arguably two or three Hall of Fame teammates at any one time and a Hall of Fame coach. Allen hasn't had a single one.

The HOF coach is a major missing piece. 

[SaulGoodman]

4 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I can’t believe spagnuolo doesn’t get more credit for the chiefs success haha their playoff defense is insanely clutch every game that terrible Daniel Sorensen doesn’t get forced into the lineup 

 

Mahomes' defense has allowed 24+ points in half his playoff games and 30+ in almost a third of them. Including two of the Super Bowls. 

[transient]

On 3/12/2024 at 2:10 PM, ddaryl said:

Reid didn't win a SB till he got to his 2nd head coaching job, and after 13 years HC experience in Philly


I'm confident McDermott can do that to.

Are you suggesting that we should get him on to his 2nd head coaching job, then, so you can see if your confidence in him is justified? 

[90sBills]

3 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

He needs it because Chiefs fans see with their own eyes that Allen is better. They’re insecure. 

I’m not sure if you’re joking but seeing the amount of Mahomes threads around here suggests the opposite is true. 

[Success]

7 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

I’m not sure if you’re joking but seeing the amount of Mahomes threads around here suggests the opposite is true. 

 

This is the only one I'm seeing on the 1st page of the forum.

 

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Sweats said:

 

 

 

Well yeah, JA will win us games and he will lose us games as well. I suppose we have to take the good with the bad in either case, however, no one can ever say he isn't electric on the field.

He's electric, mesmerizing and as Rich Eisen has said, he's one of the most athletic, physically gifted and entertaining qbs in NFL history.  Josh needed Dabol as much as Mahomes needs Andy. Albeit Reid is the superior coach over Dabol and McDermott.  Josh just needs to find a way to reduce the careless moments that we don't see as often with Mahomes. 

[90sBills]

10 minutes ago, Success said:

 

This is the only one I'm seeing on the 1st page of the forum.

 

You of all people should know what I’m saying.