What if Allen and Mahomes swapped exact situations?

[Draconator]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Are you allowed to be a Bills fan if you don’t believe your QB is the GOAT?

 

Did we all have to believe Trent would’ve been Brady with better coaching to be Bills fans?

You can leave too. This is a Bills board. If you don't like the Bills, you have no business being here. 

[Matt_In_NH]

48 minutes ago, Sweats said:

Honestly, as much as JA will win us games, he will also lose some due to his sporadic undisciplined improv playing style. I mean, it's fun to watch as fans, but it just has to be a nightmare for the team sometimes.

especially in the playoff and other big games when this stuff happens all the time.  I mean it would be one thing if it happened is like week1 or something.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

To think circumstances and situations don't play huge roles in NFL players careers is ridiculous

 

Patrick mahomes got to learn from the best quarterback whisperer of the last 30 years... Then got to sit for a year behind a pro bowl quarterback

 

Both 100% will benefit any professional quarterback

 

Josh Allen got thrown into the fire with a mediocre offensive line and mediocre weapons... 

 

He was forced to sink or swim... Which has destroyed plenty of players careers

 

Patrick mahomes absolutely needed his 1-year on the bench, which certainly helped his vault into the upper echelon of quarterbacks

 

Football is literally all about situations.. where you go ,what coach you get...

 

To think he'd be the same if he wound up on the cardinals or something

 

It takes two to tango it's always has is always will... Tom Brady getting the greatest defensive Mastermind in NFL history absolutely was crucial to the first decade of his career

 

Sure he maybe didn't need bill when he was 38..  he did when he was 24

 

Tyreek Hill called mahomes trash as a rookie lol sure he probably was over exaggerating... But he was speaking from what he was watching in practice

 

He wasn't ready

 

That's like saying Jordan poyer and Micah Hyde would have turned into all pros anywhere... No they're good football players who owe their accolades to Sean McDermott and putting them in the right spot

 

Very few people like Bruce Smith or Myles Garrett can be successful everywhere

 

There’s no proof that Mahomes needed the year off or would have failed if thrown into the fire. Josh Allen wasn’t perfect mechanically when he came into the league, and he was clearly coached and developed. They were both rough around the edges QB’s who were BOTH developed to become the QB’s they are today. 
 

Not sure why we believe the Bills coaches couldn’t have developed Mahomes when they proved they could develop Allen. 

2 minutes ago, Draconator said:

You can leave too. This is a Bills board. If you don't like the Bills, you have no business being here. 

I LOVE the Bills. Don’t think they have the greatest QB of all time. Sue me lol

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

38 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Josh is missing two things Mahomes has its patience and accuracy. Mahomes would've no doubt taken that underneath pass to Diggs on 2nd and 9. Mahomes started looking like Brady in these playoffs as he took everything the defense was giving him and that's scary thing to see. 

 

Coming out of college Mahomes was the best QB I ever scouted and there's no doubt in my mind he would be the same superstar whether he played for the Bills or basically any other team. 

 

It's not like Mahomes is perfect. He had an open TD to Rice at the end of regulation in the SB but he tunnel visioned on Kelce instead. He had a pretty bad SB until the 4th Q, including an awful INT. 

 

The big difference is that Mahomes kicker did his job and KC's def did their job to give Mahomes more chances to win the game. 

 

 

[gobills1212]

Still with this?

Even under the guise of an original thought....woof

[Draconator]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I LOVE the Bills. 

Your body of work suggests otherwise.

[Gregg]

I do think Mahomes is the better QB but he has 2 other advantages in his favor. Reid is a better HC then McDermott. Also, the Chiefs defense plays well in the playoffs. To many times the Bills defense doesn't.  Like all the playoff games vs the Chiefs and the Bengals game. Even the WC win over the Dolphins that scrub QB they had was moving the ball against them in the 2nd half.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Draconator said:

Your body of work suggests otherwise.

I can love the team AND try to be honest with them.

 

I also don’t think that Ed Oliver is the best DT in football. I don’t think Stefon Diggs is the greatest WR of all time. I don’t think that Jordan Poyer is the greatest safety in the NFL.

 

Somehow, all of those opinions are fine. But believing that Josh is (only) the second best QB in football is sacrilege. Says more about you than it does about me lol.

[Draconator]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I can love the team AND try to be honest with them.

 

I also don’t think that Ed Oliver is the best DT in football. I don’t think Stefon Diggs is the greatest WR of all time. I don’t think that Jordan Poyer is the greatest safety in the NFL.

 

Somehow, all of those opinions are fine. But believing that Josh is (only) the second best QB in football is sacrilege. Says more about you than it does about me lol.

So you've read each one of my posts. Cool bro. 

[Donuts and Doritos]

Don't know if it would've changed the outcome. But I know, I'd have liked Josh Allen a whole lot less & Patrick Mahomes a whole lot more.

 

Bc as Jerry Seinfeld said, being a fan is about cheering for the clothes.

[FireChans]

Just now, Draconator said:

So you've read each one of my posts. Cool bro. 

You should be more active in your police work. There’s someone in Batavia that is begrudgingly admitting that Tom Brady is the greatest QB of all time. Go get him!

[nedboy7]

What if our touchdowns scored 8 points while KC's scored 5? 

[90sBills]

3 minutes ago, Gregg said:

I do think Mahomes is the better QB but he has 2 other advantages in his favor. Reid is a better HC than is McDermott. Also, the Chiefs defense plays well in the playoffs. To many times the Bills defense doesn't.  Like all the playoff games vs the Chiefs and the Bengals game. Even the WC win over the Dolphins that scrub QB they had was moving the ball against them in the 2nd half.

Mia didn’t do anything in that game until Allen started turning the ball over taking unnecessary risks. Defense was shutting them down. That game should have been coasting to a win after the big lead early. That’s one of the differences between them two as QBs. Mahomes don’t make those mistakes in the playoffs. KC got up on Balt early and Mahomes cruised control it to the end. Didn’t forced unnecessary throws and let the defense worked. 

[78thealltimegreat]

Look it’s been said in this thread and needs to be said again the difference in these two organizations is one Andy Reid. 
When you start your career with the best offensive mind this league has seen since Bill Walsh that’s a heck of way to start your career. 
Josh started with Rick Dennison and Brian Daboll while the front office was defense  first, second, and third.

Josh’s greatness can never really be measured cause so much is expected of him but quite frankly he’s the best player in this franchises history and if he was with the Chiefs he’d be the best player in their history.
Patrick would be terrific here as well but the difference is Andy Reid.  

 

[Gregg]

11 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

Mia didn’t do anything in that game until Allen started turning the ball over taking unnecessary risks. Defense was shutting them down. That game should have been coasting to a win after the big lead early. That’s one of the differences between them two as QBs. Mahomes don’t make those mistakes in the playoffs. KC got up on Balt early and Mahomes cruised control it to the end. Didn’t forced unnecessary throws and let the defense worked. 

 

In the beginning it looked like a Bills blowout and Allen's turnovers didn't help. If I remember correctly in the 2nd half the Dolphins were moving the ball successfully and the Bills hung on for the win.

[L Ron Burgundy]

Allen would already have 7 rings and the ufc light heavyweight belt.

[Buffalo716]

38 minutes ago, FireChans said:

There’s no proof that Mahomes needed the year off or would have failed if thrown into the fire. Josh Allen wasn’t perfect mechanically when he came into the league, and he was clearly coached and developed. They were both rough around the edges QB’s who were BOTH developed to become the QB’s they are today. 
 

Not sure why we believe the Bills coaches couldn’t have developed Mahomes when they proved they could develop Allen. 

I LOVE the Bills. Don’t think they have the greatest QB of all time. Sue me lol

Over a hundred years in the NFL there are always outliers

 

I never said mahomes is guaranteed to fail if he was thrown to the fire... I said there is not a quarterback alive who has never benefited from sitting behind a good quarterback

 

Even Tom Brady sat behind Drew bledsoe and it immensely helped his game

 

Aaron Rodgers sitting behind Brett favre immensely helped his game

 

Josh Allen would be better if he got to sit behind an entrenched starter for a season... 

 

You get to work on things that you could completely refine without getting thrown to the wolves... When you get thrown to the wolves it's sink or swim

 

Josh swam.. but he still has some little quirks as a quarterback that could have been ironed out if he got to sit behind somebody for a year... Under fire those quirks come out... But not getting thrown to the fire could have them corrected

 

I've been to elite 11 quarterback camps, under armor All-American games, and some of the best quarterback camps in the country over 20 years 

 

I understand how quarterbacks think and get developed..  and it takes a team

 

And the situation you are thrown into is a major factor... The bills might not have Andy Reid... But Allen had a plethora of knowledge around him

 

A calming head coach in McDermott... A personal quarterback coach in Palmer... David culley was a division 1 quarterback...Daboll has been around some of the best coaches in the world...Ken Dorsey was a division one quarterback(even if not a great OC)... Joe Brady help develop the passing game at LSU when Joe burrow broke every record

 

Allen, while getting thrown to the fire had a lot of people who could calm him and help him with the quarterback position... That's why he developed while getting thrown to the fire while most quarterbacks don't

 

But sitting would have still greatly benefited him 100%

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12 by Buffalo716

[ddaryl]

53 minutes ago, colin said:

 

i read this in a backhanded way, where the implication is that mcd can win after we fire him, long into the future.

 

i chortled.

You read it correctly and as intended

Maybe he can sooner than later but unitl we do all we have right now is gaffes and injury excuses

[first_and_ten]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

What if Peyton Manning and Tom Brady swapped?

 

Brady would still be the GOAT.

 

Mahomes is the GOAT.

 

In your scenario,  Buffalo would have more than one Super Bowl, is that what you're saying?

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, ddaryl said:

Reid didn't win a SB till he got to his 2nd head coaching job, and after 13 years HC experience in Philly


I'm confident McDermott can do that to.

He won the superbowl shortly after getting his first superstar qb.  So you kind of miss that the point of the discussion.  How many Super Bowls do you think McDermott wins with Baker Mayfield or Kirk Cousins as his QB ?

[90sBills]

12 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

In the beginning it looked like a Bills blowout and Allen's turnovers didn't help. If I remember correctly in the 2nd half the Dolphins were moving the ball successfully and the Bills hung on for the win.

Turnovers gave Mia short field opportunities that got them back in it. But I agree with you that Bills defense usually don’t show up in the playoffs. Hopefully things will be different going forward with new casts. 

[first_and_ten]

1 hour ago, H2o said:

1 hour ago, H2o said:

Pretty sure the discussion has always been what if Allen and Mahomes were on the opposite team, regardless of if it was one or three. 

Pretty sure the discussion has always been what if Allen and Mahomes were on the opposite team, regardless of if it was one or three. 

 

No, the discussion is, would the two have also exchanged Super Bowl success if on the opposing teams. My view is Allen would have won with KC as well, and Mahomes would not have won it all with our team

[H2o]

1 minute ago, first_and_ten said:

 

No, the discussion is, would the two have also exchanged Super Bowl success if on the opposing teams. My view is Allen would have won with KC as well, and Mahomes would not have won it all with our team

And, we have covered this in multiple of the thousand Mahomes vs Allen threads we've seen on this board. Have fun searching if you would like. 

[ddaryl]

1 minute ago, Chaos said:

He won the superbowl shortly after getting his first superstar qb.  So you kind of miss that the point of the discussion.  How many Super Bowls do you think McDermott wins with Baker Mayfield or Kirk Cousins as his QB ?

Didn;t miss anything. He had a real good QB in Donovan McNabb

He also had 14 years of experience as a HC

To answer your question which answers itself ZERO

 

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, Draconator said:

Go to the Chiefs board then. 

Why, because I acknowledge that a clearly better player and a clearly better team are better? Why can't we just get better?

Maybe if Josh spent more time int he film room or working on his deep ball instead of his putting, he'd be able to close the gap. Maybe if McD practiced more situational awareness and tried to dissect Andy Reid's formula, he'd be able to close the gap. Maybe if Beane drafted players that better fit the system we need that had more high level potential, we'd be able to close the gap.

[first_and_ten]

7 minutes ago, H2o said:

And, we have covered this in multiple of the thousand Mahomes vs Allen threads we've seen on this board. Have fun searching if you would like. 

 

 

So why are you commenting then? Just move on!! There are plenty of threads to choose from. Why enter a thread just to whine and complain about it "being just another thread". Not everyone saw those other posts. C'mon !!!

[beebe]

brock purdy, jalen hurts, jimmy garoppolo, jared goff, nick foles, cam newton, joe flacco, colin kaepernick, rex grossman, matt hasselbeck, jake delhomme, kerry collins, trent dilfer, brad johnson and chris chandler have all QB'd teams to the super bowl. 

 

there's a lot of variance in this stuff, and luck is definitely a factor.

 

the bills have had a top-5 level defense most years of the allen era (top 10 at worst) and the offense has been top-5 in recent years as well. one AFC title game appearance and a 5-5 playoff record is a monster underachieve given that, but that's how it goes sometimes. the bills will break through to at least a super bowl appearance if the next five years look like the last five years. 

Edited March 12 by beebe

[first_and_ten]

1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said:

Why, because I acknowledge that a clearly better player and a clearly better team are better? Why can't we just get better?

Maybe if Josh spent more time int he film room or working on his deep ball instead of his putting, he'd be able to close the gap. Maybe if McD practiced more situational awareness and tried to dissect Andy Reid's formula, he'd be able to close the gap. Maybe if Beane drafted players that better fit the system we need that had more high level potential, we'd be able to close the gap.

 

Not to go in another direction, but since you took it there, I will. It does bother me that Josh Allen doesn't work out or work on his game in the offseason. This is from his own lips. He needs to unwind, as he has said. And you are right that KC has beaten the Bills in the draft room as well.

[Matt_In_NH]

I bet the games would come down to a play here or there at the end.

[H2o]

10 minutes ago, first_and_ten said:

So why are you commenting then? Just move on!! There are plenty of threads to choose from. Why enter a thread just to whine and complain about it "being just another thread". Not everyone saw those other posts. C'mon !!!

Bruh, you've been on here since 2009 and never seen anything of the like? You're kidding, right?  

 

Just stating the obvious about the thread. Facts don't have feelings, so don't let those facts get you caught up in yours.  

[Billl]

2 hours ago, first_and_ten said:

 

What if the only difference between the Chiefs and the Bills were the quarterbacks for the last 4 years, Imagine Josh Allen on the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes on the Bills. It's my opinion that the Chiefs would still have won at least 2, possibly all 3 Super Bowls. I think the Bills still come up short even with Mahomes. I think Josh Allen would be talked about as the Goat instead of Mahomes. Organizations help make a player a champion, and the Chiefs organization is better than the Bills. Just one man's opinion, a longsuffering Bills fan.  😔

Kansas City would have let the Chiefs move to Portland, and the Bills would have won 8, yes 8 SuperBowls.   The new stadium would have a retractable roof, and blue cheese would be replaced with ketchup as the preferred accompaniment to wings.  

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Over a hundred years in the NFL there are always outliers

 

I never said mahomes is guaranteed to fail if he was thrown to the fire... I said there is not a quarterback alive who has never benefited from sitting behind a good quarterback

 

Even Tom Brady sat behind Drew bledsoe and it immensely helped his game

 

Aaron Rodgers sitting behind Brett favre immensely helped his game

 

Josh Allen would be better if he got to sit behind an entrenched starter for a season... 

 

You get to work on things that you could completely refine without getting thrown to the wolves... When you get thrown to the wolves it's sink or swim

 

Josh swam.. but he still has some little quirks as a quarterback that could have been ironed out if he got to sit behind somebody for a year... Under fire those quirks come out... But not getting thrown to the fire could have them corrected

 

I've been to elite 11 quarterback camps, under armor All-American games, and some of the best quarterback camps in the country over 20 years 

 

I understand how quarterbacks think and get developed..  and it takes a team

 

And the situation you are thrown into is a major factor... The bills might not have Andy Reid... But Allen had a plethora of knowledge around him

 

A calming head coach in McDermott... A personal quarterback coach in Palmer... David culley was a division 1 quarterback...Daboll has been around some of the best coaches in the world...Ken Dorsey was a division one quarterback(even if not a great OC)... Joe Brady help develop the passing game at LSU when Joe burrow broke every record

 

Allen, while getting thrown to the fire had a lot of people who could calm him and help him with the quarterback position... That's why he developed while getting thrown to the fire while most quarterbacks don't

 

But sitting would have still greatly benefited him 100%

 

 

 

 

Why was sitting not as beneficial for Aaron Rodgers as it was for Tom Brady?

[Buffalo716]

38 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Why was sitting not as beneficial for Aaron Rodgers as it was for Tom Brady?

What makes you say it was not as beneficial?

 

Are you just looking at super bowl wins? Because that's not a quarterback stat.. it's a team stat

 

Aaron Rodgers certainly had some faults in his game coming out of Cal Berkeley... Including some mechanical issues that left his deep ball lacking...despite his arm... Especially for the NFL level

 

Aaron Rodgers certainly corrected that issue on the bench and became one of the best deep ball throwers of all time... He can throw it with juice back shoulder 40 yards down the field.. or put saucy touch on the ball and lay a perfect feathery deep ball

 

Statistically he has the best touchdown to interception ratio of all time... And he has better postseason numbers per game than Tom Brady

 

What he didn't have is a Hall of Fame coach like Bill belichick or Andy Reid... He had Mike McCarthy one of the most overrated coaches of the last 30 years

 

The game certainly slowed down for Aaron Rodgers over 3 years on the bench and he statistically has the best touchdown to interception ratio ever for a decade long starter

 

Sitting certainly benefited him

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12 by Buffalo716

[Billsatlastin2018]

2 hours ago, colin said:

 

i read this in a backhanded way, where the implication is that mcd can win after we fire him, long into the future.

 

i chortled.

Who DIDN’T?

[FireChans]

41 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

What makes you say it was not as beneficial?

 

Are you just looking at super bowl wins? Because that's not a quarterback stat.. it's a team stat

 

Aaron Rodgers certainly had some faults in his game coming out of Cal Berkeley... Including some mechanical issues that left his deep ball lacking...despite his arm... Especially for the NFL level

 

Aaron Rodgers certainly corrected that issue on the bench and became one of the best deep ball throwers of all time... He can throw it with juice back shoulder 40 yards down the field.. or put saucy touch on the ball and lay a perfect feathery deep ball

 

Statistically he has the best touchdown to interception ratio of all time... And he has better postseason numbers per game than Tom Brady

 

What he didn't have is a Hall of Fame coach like Bill belichick or Andy Reid... He had Mike McCarthy one of the most overrated coaches of the last 30 years

 

The game certainly slowed down for Aaron Rodgers over 3 years on the bench and he statistically has the best touchdown to interception ratio ever for a decade long starter

 

Sitting certainly benefited him

 

 

 

 

 

Because Tom Brady is the GOAT. Aaron Rodgers is not. Clearly, the difference wasn't sitting, because they both sat. In fact, you could argue that Rodgers sitting more hurt him.

[Buffalo716]

25 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Because Tom Brady is the GOAT. Aaron Rodgers is not. Clearly, the difference wasn't sitting, because they both sat. In fact, you could argue that Rodgers sitting more hurt him.

There has never been a professional football coach alive who thought sitting a rookie or Young quarterback was a bad idea if you could

 

Never not one

 

Even McDermott wanted to sit Josh Allen as long as he could behind Peterman... But he wouldn't survive a 0-16 season so threw Josh to the flames... He wanted to sit him

 

Drew Brees sat .. Phillip Rivers sat for 2 years ... Eli sat half his rookie season #1 pick

 

It does not hurt the development of any QB that is why coaches are willing to do it... Coaches today don't do it as much because they're on a short leash and will get fired

 

But it's not bad for the player... Always been beneficial 

 

Bryce young should have been sitting last year... Learning from the bench and not taking 60 sacks

 

He could have stepped in this year with 150 million in offensive line upgrades

 

But he may already be ruined

Edited March 12 by Buffalo716

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, Einstein said:

Large caveat: Reid had been to a Super Bowl and numerous Championship games by his 7th season (which McDermott just finished).

 

Reid also beat top-4 seeds three times in his first seven seasons, something that McD has yet to do.

 

He did it with McNabb too.

 

For those that want to compare McD to Reid, it's only fair to ask how McD would have done with McNabb instead of Allen at QB, and visa versa, how Reid would have done in Philly with Allen.  

 

It's a tough argument to suggest that McD would have had five playoff wins with McNabb.  

 

Reid also won four divisional round games and one conference game in his first seven seasons. McD's won only one divisional round game and that was against a wild-card team with an expiring QB.  

 

 

[SCBills]

I’ll acknowledge that Mahomes may have one in Buffalo.  He’s been in the league a year longer and is more consistent in the regular season than Josh .. so maybe with him we finally get a one seed. 
 

That said, Josh Allen in KC has multiple Super Bowl victories and is the face of the NFL.  

[Nephilim17]

Both generational quarterbacks.

I'd say Josh is the better athlete but Patrick has superior processing skills and judgment. 

 

Many here probably don't agree and might even hate that. 

That said, I like Josh better as MY quarterback and when we win a Super Bowl it will be sweeter for me and every Bills fan than any KC championship ever was for their players or fans. 

Edited March 13 by Nephilim17

[Success]

19 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

Both generational quarterbacks.

I'd say Josh is the better athlete but Patrick has superior processing skills and judgment. 

 

Many here probably don't agree and might even hate that. 

That said, I like Josh better as MY quarterback and when we win a Super Bowl it will be sweeter for me and every Bills fan than any KC championship ever was for their players or fans. 

 

I think that's fair, in terms of the comparison.  I see other fans kind of characterizing JA as being all athleticism and really lacking in those processing skills, which I of course completely disagree with.  But it's fair to say that Mahomes is better there.

 

As far as that final line, I think there are only a few fanbases out there that might have had an experience like we will when we finally get one - Cubs fans, Red Sox fans in 2004.  Maybe Cavs fans when Lebron won that title there?  It's hard to think of others.  I can't think of an NFL team that has had a comparable history.  I suppose Minnesota if they finally get one too.