Core concepts of Joe Brady's offense

[The Jokeman]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Nothings wrong with him. Had a nice performance this year. Takes 2 sides to make a deal so who knows if he's back. 

 

Buffalo also kept 3 RBs this year. So even if Johnson's back there's room. I don't expect Murray back. Evans is a JAG. And Hines is coming off major injury.

Hines might get the returnman occasion used in offense Harry role next year. Yet still need a #2 RB with size behind Cook. AJ Dillon was rumored to be I. Our sights last off-season and could be a cheap add or could see drafting a guy like Isaiah Davis late (round 5).

3 minutes ago, appoo said:

I’d rather have Gabe over any of those guys. He’s pretty underrated right now because of the struggles of the Bills WRs in general, and because he’s a specialist.

 

Thing is he’s got the tools to be a top 5 downfield WR. It’s not a speed thing. It’s body control, eyes, hands and instinct. 
 

But all of that means the Bills probably can’t afford him. 

I agree. Noah Brown to me under the radar and he did well in Houston last year when asked to step in after a breakout year in 2022 with Dallas. To me he's an ideal Davis replacement as can be a #2-4 type and has similar traits to Davis.

[JerseyBills]

8 hours ago, babulator said:

We need someone that can stretch the field and make room underneath for Diggs, Kincaid and Shakir. If cook could spend some time with the Juggs machine, that wouldn't hurt either.

Bills recognized this with the Harty 3 yr signing,  he obviously wasn't what we expected but it seems like they realized this is an issue and should address it with a player(s) with higher upside.

 

Harty fooled me, I thought he'd be the next John Brown..

 

It already shows with the Hamler future signing,  Beane is focused on upgrading the speed on O 

[BuffaloBillyG]

3 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Hines might get the returnman occasion used in offense Harry role next year. Yet still need a #2 RB with size behind Cook. AJ Dillon was rumored to be I. Our sights last off-season and could be a cheap add or could see drafting a guy like Isaiah Davis late (round 5).

Hines can end up anywhere from RB2/KR to camp casualty depending on how he heals 

 

Typically a RB coming off an ACL isn't ideal. 

[JerseyBills]

Just now, BuffaloBillyG said:

Hines can end up anywhere from RB2/KR to camp casualty depending on how he heals 

 

Typically a RB coming off an ACL isn't ideal. 

CMC says hello lol but I'd argue RB is one of the easiest positions to come back from an ACL

[The Jokeman]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Hines can end up anywhere from RB2/KR to camp casualty depending on how he heals 

 

Typically a RB coming off an ACL isn't ideal. 

To me you get a bigger body at RB2 and seems to be MCBeane's MO. 

[The Jokeman]

11 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Bills recognized this with the Harty 3 yr signing,  he obviously wasn't what we expected but it seems like they realized this is an issue and should address it with a player(s) with higher upside.

 

Harty fooled me, I thought he'd be the next John Brown..

 

It already shows with the Hamler future signing,  Beane is focused on upgrading the speed on O 

Or at least be a better McKenzie. 

[JerseyBills]

2 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Or at least be a better McKenzie. 

They had that with Shakir, Harty was more an outside speedster , McKittrick was a slot guy 

[The Jokeman]

1 minute ago, JerseyBills said:

They had that with Shakir, Harty was more an outside speedster , McKittrick was a slot guy 

No McKenzie was our speed/gadget guy 4th WR. We wanted him to be more when honestly he wasn't.

[appoo]

1 minute ago, The Jokeman said:

No McKenzie was our speed/gadget guy 4th WR. We wanted him to be more when honestly he wasn't.

Think they got pretty good value out of him considering he was a 5th round pick

[The Jokeman]

1 minute ago, appoo said:

Think they got pretty good value out of him considering he was a 5th round pick

He was what he was. We just haven't found a suitable Beasley replacement. I know Kincaid can be but we need it in WR form too for our offense to truly be elite again.

[appoo]

1 minute ago, The Jokeman said:

He was what he was. We just haven't found a suitable Beasley replacement. I know Kincaid can be but we need it in WR form too for our offense to truly be elite again.

Do what I said above - resign Davis, draft a deep threat in R1, and you have both Diggs and Shakir along with Kincaid running those routes Beasley was running and that’s a win 

[The Jokeman]

6 minutes ago, appoo said:

Do what I said above - resign Davis, draft a deep threat in R1, and you have both Diggs and Shakir along with Kincaid running those routes Beasley was running and that’s a win 

Davis is going to be too expensive.

[Dick_Cheney]

42 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson said:

Can't afford to read the article.

 

Check my earlier post.

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Dick_Cheney said:

Non paywall version, but doesn't show the videos:https://www.printfriendly.com/p/g/KZ8dqS

 

If you punch the direct link from the Athletic into 12ft.io, you can see the whole thing.

Thanks for posting that.

[GoBills!]

I still have some hope with Justin Shorter 6’4 big body let’s see him catch some of Josh’s passes this next preseason. Hopefully he is a surprise like Shakir. 

[appoo]

3 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Davis is going to be too expensive.

Not if you extend him out 5-6 years and stack his back end years, and give him a really solid signing bonus.

 

You can absolutely fit him in the cap for like 6-8M hit this upcoming season 

[Thurman#1]

14 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Many of us have asked "what is HIS offense"  I found an article on the Atlantic that breaks down what Joe's concepts are for his offense. I like how there are option routes underneath which we have been lacking and Kurt Warner even said was missing from our offense.  From what all I have read on various articles, Joe's offense needs speed. Diggs still has enough, Shakir has plenty, but we need another really good WR to compete for a top slot, and better depth.  Kincaid should thrive in this offense.https://theathletic.com/1606403/2020/02/20/teds-film-room-core-concepts-from-lsu-that-oc-joe-brady-may-use-in-carolina/

 

 

The Atlantic? I didn't know they did sports reporting

 

 

4 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Davis is going to be too expensive.

 

 

I don't think that's a given. Certainly very possible, though.

 

If his stats hadn't dropped this year, probably. But I think there is a much wider range of possible outcomes here than people are predicting. The question is how much of his statistical and productive drop is on him in not getting open and how much on the offense for using him as a clear-out guy, a blocker or a 3rd or 4th look on plays.

Edited January 31 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Gunner….And what pieces (plural) would those be? Josh has everything he needs with the exception of a WR2 and the possible resigning of his RB2. His OLine, TE, WR1, Slot WR, and RB1 are all cast in stone for 2024. .

 

Well at the moment the only WRs under contract are Diggs, Shakir and Shorter. Not sure Shorter is going to amount to much so it is about making sure not just that they find an impactful guy early in the draft but that they also find depth guys with a bit of dynamism who can have roles on the team and be used in certain packages. 

[machine gun kelly]

13 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

To those judging Brady on this year, we haven't seen his real offense yet. He was managing Dorsey's playbook.

Im looking forward to seeing what he comes up with his own offense.

[Don Otreply]

13 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Yes we do. But I pray to God we don’t go after some speed dude with concrete for hands! 

Remember back a few seasons ago when we had the worst receiver room in the league, and Beane and McDermott went into the next draft repeatedly saying that they wanted receivers that had good hands and speed as a priority…,  we need this as a priority again.
 

What we need is (“fast boundary receivers that can run a whole route tree, with great separation skills and glue for hands”) 🤞.  We essentially have been running one guy (Diggs) into double teams and two high sets, without a #2 wr that can draw away coverage on a regular basis, this needs to be a priority fix. Don’t care how they do it as long as they are successful implementing it . It will be interesting to see what Joe Brady’s offense develops into with a better # 1b / #2 option. 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Remember back a few seasons ago when we had the worst receiver room in the league, and Beane and McDermott went into the next draft repeatedly saying that they wanted receivers that had good hands and speed as a priority…,  we need this as a priority again.
 

What we need is (“fast boundary receivers that can run a whole route tree, with great separation skills and glue for hands”) 🤞.  We essentially have been running one guy (Diggs) into double teams and two high sets, without a #2 wr that can draw away coverage on a regular basis, this needs to be a priority fix. Don’t care how they do it as long as they are successful implementing it . It will be interesting to see what Joe Brady’s offense develops into with a better # 1b / #2 option. 

Agreed, and my preferred WR2 route tree is not a guy who runs deep downfield on every play trying to ‘take the top off’ the defense. Give me a taller kid who can make the contested catch and get us a first down. And then let’s see if an offseason under Brady’s system will get Josh to find the open guy….because as we’ve all seen they’re there on virtually every single play. 

[T master]

And just think all the things the Bills were missing in their offense has now moved on to Cleveland  LOL ... 

 

Thank you Dog pound !

[PromoTheRobot]

18 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

You might be right but let me make some observations before asking you something.  

 

There are two basic offensive systems in the NFL: Erhardt-Perkins and West Coast.  I've heard coaches and players say all NFL teams run, more-or-less, the same plays.  So there are two basic playbooks: E-P and West Coast.  And there's a lot of overlap between the two. 

 

Coordinators tweak and combine ideas as they feel appropriate to create their own syncretic scheme.  But no coordinator is filling a playbook with plays no one has seen before based on an offensive strategy no one has considered before.    

 

When Kurt Warner, for example, diagnoses Bills film, he knows & understands the play he's reviewing because he ran the same play (or one very similar) when he played.  He knows what it's designed to do and how it's supposed to be executed.  

 

So what is Brady's real offense?  What is he going to do schematically different next year that he couldn't do this year?  What plays will he use that weren't in this year's playbook?  

 

 

Take a look at LSU with Joe Burrow for clues.

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Take a look at LSU with Joe Burrow for clues.

 

There might indeed be some clues there but that was college and this is the NFL.  And that was a few years ago - he may have evolved since then.  And Brady has said he's not married to a scheme.  He's more interested in developing an offense that fits the talents of his players.  

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I'm sincerely curious about this question: How will Brady's offensive scheme be different than Dorsey's?  I guess we'll all find out next season.  I'm sure he'll try to put his individual stamp on the O.  I'm just not sure how successful he'll be.  I'd like to be confident.  As a Bills fan, I'm always hopeful.  But I'm also firmly in the I-just-don't-know camp when it comes to how excited we should feel with him in the OC role.  

 

[Dunkirk Donski]

22 hours ago, babulator said:

We need someone that can stretch the field and make room underneath for Diggs, Kincaid and Shakir. If cook could spend some time with the Juggs machine, that wouldn't hurt either.

Cook reminds of Ronnie Harmon.  To me, thats a terrifying thought.

[Dablitzkrieg]

22 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

So we need another WR huh?

2

[babulator]

3 minutes ago, Dunkirk Donski said:

Cook reminds of Ronnie Harmon.  To me, thats a terrifying thought.

Used to have nightmares about this drop. Should have been 5 Superbowls!

[ngbills]

48 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

There might indeed be some clues there but that was college and this is the NFL.  And that was a few years ago - he may have evolved since then.  And Brady has said he's not married to a scheme.  He's more interested in developing an offense that fits the talents of his players.  

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I'm sincerely curious about this question: How will Brady's offensive scheme be different than Dorsey's?  I guess we'll all find out next season.  I'm sure he'll try to put his individual stamp on the O.  I'm just not sure how successful he'll be.  I'd like to be confident.  As a Bills fan, I'm always hopeful.  But I'm also firmly in the I-just-don't-know camp when it comes to how excited we should feel with him in the OC role.  

 

That was also mainly Ensminger's offense. Brady was only there one year and they did not completely redesign the playbook. They tweaked some things and Brady helped with the passing game and red zone offense. He definitely did not create the LSU offense. 

[appoo]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Agreed, and my preferred WR2 route tree is not a guy who runs deep downfield on every play trying to ‘take the top off’ the defense. Give me a taller kid who can make the contested catch and get us a first down. And then let’s see if an offseason under Brady’s system will get Josh to find the open guy….because as we’ve all seen they’re there on virtually every single play. 

People got to get away from WR1 vs 2 vs 3 thinking - at least upfront. 

 

 

This is Justin Jefferson against the Bills last year. 

 

 

Ja'Marr Chase

 

 

And Cooper Kupp. 

 

All 3 have one common factor - they're WR1 of their offenses. Outside of that, they all have hugely different approaches in how they're deployed. 

 

So when thinking about this Bills, I like to think about what they have vs what they don't have, and then figuring out who my favorite target is based on how well a WR does in his preferred route tree. 

 

The Bills have like 3 guys who can run that Cooper Kupp and Ja'Marr Chase route tree. When Diggs is healthy he can do it as well as those dudes. What the Bills DON'T have, is someone who run a variety of intermediate to deep routes at a reasonable level and speed

 

You can call that person a Wr1 or 2, it doesn't matter. But that's the sizable gap in the bills offense that needs solving. They tried doing it with bargain basement speedsters, but that's not gonna cut it

29 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

2

Minimum 2 if Gabe isn't resigned, and Shorter doesn't blow up in the off season. He can be a deep ball specialist where he runs the DK Metcalf route tree, but there's a massive way to go there. The Bills need to get a legit WR this off season

[PromoTheRobot]

55 minutes ago, babulator said:

Used to have nightmares about this drop. Should have been 5 Superbowls!

 

6. We lost the AFCC to Cincinnati the year before.

[babulator]

51 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

6. We lost the AFCC to Cincinnati the year before.

Right you are sir.

[appoo]

57 minutes ago, babulator said:

Right you are sir.

Bickering Bills

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, babulator said:

Used to have nightmares about this drop. Should have been 5 Superbowls!

The Clown said Jim threw it too soft.  

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

6. We lost the AFCC to Cincinnati the year before.

Its interesting fans forget we went to 5 out of 6 straight AFC Championships.  Wouldn't KC have just tied that this last weekend?

2 hours ago, appoo said:

People got to get away from WR1 vs 2 vs 3 thinking - at least upfront. 

 

 

This is Justin Jefferson against the Bills last year. 

 

 

Ja'Marr Chase

 

 

And Cooper Kupp. 

 

All 3 have one common factor - they're WR1 of their offenses. Outside of that, they all have hugely different approaches in how they're deployed. 

 

So when thinking about this Bills, I like to think about what they have vs what they don't have, and then figuring out who my favorite target is based on how well a WR does in his preferred route tree. 

 

The Bills have like 3 guys who can run that Cooper Kupp and Ja'Marr Chase route tree. When Diggs is healthy he can do it as well as those dudes. What the Bills DON'T have, is someone who run a variety of intermediate to deep routes at a reasonable level and speed

 

You can call that person a Wr1 or 2, it doesn't matter. But that's the sizable gap in the bills offense that needs solving. They tried doing it with bargain basement speedsters, but that's not gonna cut it

Minimum 2 if Gabe isn't resigned, and Shorter doesn't blow up in the off season. He can be a deep ball specialist where he runs the DK Metcalf route tree, but there's a massive way to go there. The Bills need to get a legit WR this off season

No matter what we need another legit WR to go with Diggs and Shakir. To your point, if we have 3 guys that the Defense has to at least respect, and all 3 have some speed, but the ability to create space and Catch the damn ball CONSISTANTLY, then we don't need a "#1" per say.  Move all 3 around to keep Defenses guessing.

[DJB]

Watching some film from Josh 2020 breakout season and I’ve seen quite a bit of bootlegs left and right. It really opens up Josh to make a throw on the run and keeps the D honest. 
 

Hopefully we see some of that built in.

 

At week 10 Josh was the best QB at play action according to the numbers . 

Edited March 23 by DJB

[BigAl2526]

The Bills have certainly added some more speed with Curtis Samuel, but the still lack the big athletic X receiver to fill the role that Gabe Davis never quite measured up to.

[appoo]

19 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

The Bills have certainly added some more speed with Curtis Samuel, but the still lack the big athletic X receiver to fill the role that Gabe Davis never quite measured up to.

Gabe filled the role exactly as you’d want him to. The problem was that when John brown left, all he had was Diggs as 2nd deep threat, and the bills lacked a true a slot weapon when they tried to fill Cole Beasleys role with Isiah McKenzie. So the Bills became a bit stagnant in route concepts, and having a rookie OC didn’t help either.  
 

Last half of last season, when it because apparent that Diggs had lost a bit of his top end speed (he’s still got elite quickness and acceleration), Davis was the lone deep threat on the roster. He was never good enough to be a guy who’s gonna beat a corner and over the top safety help at the same time. He’s not that kind of burner.  
 

With Curtis Samuel in as a secondary deep threat along with being intermediate and underneath, and a plethora of true intermediate/middle route runners, then someone exactly like Davis is what the bills need to take this offense to the next level - which is an elite offense. 
 

Ladd McKonkey, Adonai Mitchell, Xavier Worthy, Leagette…some real options in this draft of dudes who can win deep. The reach pick would be Rome Odunze, who to me is the souped up version of Gabe Davis

Edited March 24 by appoo

[SoonerBillsFan]

On 1/30/2024 at 4:44 PM, SoonerBillsFan said:

I noticed Brady's offense at LSU had a lot of Sean Paytons route combos on it. Payton runs a version of the Air coryell offense.

Correct. That is why we need 3- 4 WR who can run all routes, create separation and catch well

31 minutes ago, appoo said:

Gabe filled the role exactly as you’d want him to. The problem was that when John brown left, all he had was Diggs as 2nd deep threat, and the bills lacked a true a slot weapon when they tried to fill Cole Beasleys role with Isiah McKenzie. So the Bills became a bit stagnant in route concepts, and having a rookie OC didn’t help either.  
 

Last half of last season, when it because apparent that Diggs had lost a bit of his top end speed (he’s still got elite quickness and acceleration), Davis was the lone deep threat on the roster. He was never good enough to be a guy who’s gonna beat a corner and over the top safety help at the same time. He’s not that kind of burner.  
 

With Curtis Samuel in as a secondary deep threat along with being intermediate and underneath, and a plethora of true intermediate/middle route runners, then someone exactly like Davis is what the bills need to take this offense to the next level - which is an elite offense. 
 

Ladd McKonkey, Adonai Mitchell, Xavier Worthy, Leagette…some real options in this draft of dudes who can win deep. The reach pick would be Rome Odunze, who to me is the souped up version of Gabe Davis

I am all about Ladd McConkey at #28. He is perfect for this offense.

22 hours ago, DJB said:

Watching some film from Josh 2020 breakout season and I’ve seen quite a bit of bootlegs left and right. It really opens up Josh to make a throw on the run and keeps the D honest. 
 

Hopefully we see some of that built in.

 

At week 10 Josh was the best QB at play action according to the numbers . 

We were at our best this year when Josh was under center

[DJB]

37 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

 

We were at our best this year when Josh was under center

Exactly it sets up the run, the pass, play action, boots. 
 

I think gun is not great for our running game and it basically shows pass from our O. At least under Dorsey

[Meatloaf63]

On 1/30/2024 at 3:38 PM, hondo in seattle said:

 

You might be right but let me make some observations before asking you something.  

 

There are two basic offensive systems in the NFL: Erhardt-Perkins and West Coast.  I've heard coaches and players say all NFL teams run, more-or-less, the same plays.  So there are two basic playbooks: E-P and West Coast.  And there's a lot of overlap between the two. 

 

Coordinators tweak and combine ideas as they feel appropriate to create their own syncretic scheme.  But no coordinator is filling a playbook with plays no one has seen before based on an offensive strategy no one has considered before.    

 

When Kurt Warner, for example, diagnoses Bills film, he knows & understands the play he's reviewing because he ran the same play (or one very similar) when he played.  He knows what it's designed to do and how it's supposed to be executed.  

 

So what is Brady's real offense?  What is he going to do schematically different next year that he couldn't do this year?  What plays will he use that weren't in this year's playbook?  

 

Hopefully one where there aren’t 3 receivers within 5 yards of each other…

[finn]

On 1/30/2024 at 3:32 PM, appoo said:

He really wasn't. Teams can easily scheme away explosives when you have exactly 1 downfield threat. You want to bust 2 high looks, have 2 dudes who can hurt you deep. When Davis was at his best, he had Emmanuel Sanders (who even in 2021 was a 4.3 40 type legit downfield dude) and a faster and more dangerous Stefon Diggs.  That helped unlock Davis in that playoff game in a huge way. 

 

I really wish the Bills could afford to re-sign Davis. Because I'd love to pair him with someone like Xavier Worthy who can take the top off. 

 

Ideally you could do something like this:

 

Deep Option 1: Davis

Deep Option 2: Worthy

Intermediate/Underneath: Diggs & Shakir

Intermediate/Underneath: Kincaid/Knox

 

And mix and match as you go. 

Was Davis really a downfield threat? It's always seemed to me he was just a guy out there, with average WR speed, average hands, and little ability to get separation. His success, one could say, was entirely due to a future HOF QB throwing to him.

 

I'm willing to learn that I've been wrong about him, though. What did you see or know that I didn't describe here?