Would this be the week to give Elam a chance.

[strive_for_five_guy]

This thread reminds me of when I was in little league.  My dad was the coach and our next game was for the championship.  One of the other kid’s dads called my dad, and asked what he thought about his kid pitching in the championship.  Only thing was, his kid hadn’t pitched all season.  This guy must have been drinking and/or smoking something real good that night.

[Punching Bag]

49 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

Once Gilmore left us - doubtful he would ever return, esp when he was desired by the wealthiest franchise in the game.

 

Wasn't he the player who said he left because not enough people could see him play.

 

I wonder how many of his people could see him when he played in Indianapolis?

[PaattMaann]

22 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

Without an injury?  I don't see it.  Benford didn't have his best game in coverage but he forced a fumble.  

 

Benford was also consistently put in "no-win" situations by the Chiefs...flooding his zone with two options so whichever he chose to go to, left the other open. He played a good game considering that. Made tackles, weathered the storm, and as you pointed out, forced a fumble.

[2003Contenders]

26 minutes ago, FireChans said:

We barely had a starting corner on the roster and they had one with a first round grade.

 

Are you arguing they should have taken what they believed to be was a lesser player solely because they weren't a DB?

Actually, I get the opposite sense when it comes to McD. I think he prides himself on finding diamonds in the rough at the CB position and believes that he can coach them up. In a way he is right, as he has managed decent production from late-round and undrafted players. Benford was a day 3 pick in the same draft as Elam.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, 2003Contenders said:

Actually, I get the opposite sense when it comes to McD. I think he prides himself on finding diamonds in the rough at the CB position and believes that he can coach them up. In a way he is right, as he has managed decent production from late-round and undrafted players. Benford was a day 3 pick in the same draft as Elam.

We hadn't drafted Benford at the time when we were selecting Elam.  And we had one CB who could start on the roster during that time.

 

Elam sucks and is a bust. It sucks.

 

But the vision was obvious. Elam/Dane + Tre when he got healthy. And, ideally, once Elam took the starting job and developed into a budding star, you can move on from Tre (@Bill from NYC rather have a rookie deal CB than a gigantic contract CB, right?)

 

Of course, Benford was also drafted and outplayed Elam by a lot.  But physically, I'm not sure he has it in him to be a top flight CB in the league.  Which again, sucks. Because we are gonna move on from Tre, and probably cut or trade Elam, and just have some above average DB's.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

We hadn't drafted Benford at the time when we were selecting Elam.  And we had one CB who could start on the roster during that time.

 

Elam sucks and is a bust. It sucks.

 

But the vision was obvious. Elam/Dane + Tre when he got healthy. And, ideally, once Elam took the starting job and developed into a budding star, you can move on from Tre (@Bill from NYC rather have a rookie deal CB than a gigantic contract CB, right?)

 

Of course, Benford was also drafted and outplayed Elam by a lot.  But physically, I'm not sure he has it in him to be a top flight CB in the league.  Which again, sucks. Because we are gonna move on from Tre, and probably cut or trade Elam, and just have some above average DB's.

 

Tre is going to make pennies on the open market so i do hope there's a chance to massively reduce his cap hit and keep him around.  With Hyde gone and poyer probably gone it would be nice to keep one vet around who's been here since the start, and he's the youngest in that group.  

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Tre is going to make pennies on the open market so i do hope there's a chance to massively reduce his cap hit and keep him around.  With Hyde gone and poyer probably gone it would be nice to keep one vet around who's been here since the start, and he's the youngest in that group.  

Richard Sherman ruptured his Achilles around 28-29 and his play took a serious dip.  Tre is now coming off Achilles AND major injury the year prior.

 

I'm not sure he will be WORTH any number.

[JohnNord]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I agree with you Gunner. To take it a half step further, his ability to play multiple positions make him an ideal candidate to be active on game days. It allows the team some flexibility with other game day decisions. 

I think he’s better as a safety or slot CB than a traditional boundary corner.  

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

We barely had a starting corner on the roster and they had one with a first round grade.

 

Are you arguing they should have taken what they believed to be was a lesser player solely because they weren't a DB?

Wait, a lesser player than Elam who they traded up for to play in a zone? Do you want to rephrase your question?

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Wait, a lesser player than Elam who they traded up for to play in a zone? Do you want to rephrase your question?

No. They didn’t know Elam was a bust. I’m saying that under the 3 major assumptions:

 

1 Elam was their last 1st round graded player on the board

 

2 They had major need at CB, with one healthy player who was a backup the year prior

 

3 They don’t know the results of the draft at the time

 

You would argue they should’ve taken a day 2 graded player instead? On draft night? 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by FireChans

[gonzo1105]

Why are we still having this argument. Sure you could blame his ankle but he hasn't played a lot in his career even last year. He got his chance finally against the Jaguars and got absolutely roasted by Ridley. Now you want to trot him out there against Ceedee Lamb, Brandin Cooks, Michael Gallup. Cmon now. 

[Bill from NYC]

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

You would argue they should’ve taken a day 2 graded player instead? On draft night? 

 

I am saying that McDermott followed the trail of idiocy paved by inefficient, incompetent folks who controlled our Buffalo Bills by focusing on DBs (remember the trade for the Mahomes pick?) and making defensive backs his priority. This a major reason for the failure of our franchise. 

 

You are a long time fan. It would seem to me that you already know this. If not, start at 1990 and look at how inferior regimes like Levy/Jauron destroyed this team. If you like him and what he is doing on the Bills, great!!! Imo, McDermott is a bald headed, trite version of Jauron.

 

Peace!

 

https://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/bills

Edited December 12, 2023 by Bill from NYC

[nedboy7]

He had a couple of bad games.  He needs to be exiled.  We cant have players who have bad games. 

[margolbe]

What I am wondering about Elam is that he appears to be in McD's doghouse.  Not sure how he got there, but wondering if they are really giving him a fair shake.  You think they would given that he was a first round pick, but I have a feeling there is more to this story than meets the eye.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

I am saying that McDermott followed the trail of idiocy paved by inefficient, incompetent folks who controlled our Buffalo Bills by focusing on DBs (remember the trade for the Mahomes pick?) and making defensive backs his priority. This a major reason for the failure of our franchise. 

 

You are a long time fan. It would seem to me that you already know this. If not, start at 1990 and look at how inferior regimes like Levy/Jauron destroyed this team. If you like him and what he is doing on the Bills, great!!! Imo, McDermott is a bald headed, trite version of Jauron.

 

Peace!

 

https://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/bills

Drafting Tre instead of Mahomes or Antoine Winfield 20 years ago has no bearing on the Elam pick, Bill.

[Jauronimo]

5 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Yep, that pick simply had to be a corner, even if it involved trading up. Screw wide receivers and/or blockers. We needed a first round corner to play in a zone at all costs. 

Now, Tre might be shot due to his injury. Perhaps McDermott and his lapdog will run to the podiun in 2024 and grab another corner in the 1st. It wouldn't surprise me.

If it were up to you the team would have zero defensive backs

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

If it were up to you the team would have zero defensive backs

As a Bama fan, it’s criminal that @Bill from NYC forgets that one of the best players on Bama is their five star CB Kool Aid McKinstry. 
 

Of course, Saban should have never offered him a scholarship. Because of Leodis McKelvin, or something. 

[Jauronimo]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Drafting Tre instead of Mahomes or Antoine Winfield 20 years ago has no bearing on the Elam pick, Bill.

He's been bitching about drafting DBs since Whitner was selected over Haloti Ngata.  It went full crusade after McKelvin was the pick and its only gotten worse over time.  The whole league drafts DBs in the first round because its a money position.

[DuckyBoys]

Think they kept him strictly in case they suffered further injuries at db.  Only way we see him is further injuries at db .    He could not beat out Benford as a rookie and is probably way behind him at this point in their eyes  Whiff by Beane .   It is what it is.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

Richard Sherman ruptured his Achilles around 28-29 and his play took a serious dip.  Tre is now coming off Achilles AND major injury the year prior.

 

I'm not sure he will be WORTH any number.

 

Fair. If hes gonna cost u 11 in cap space to cut. Maybe u can structure it at like 13? I see what ur saying tho.

[Freddie's Dead]

Elam is done here.  The McDummy doghouse is Hotel California, you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.  Barring injury, he doesn't see the field again in a Bills uni.  Oh wait, there was an injury, and McBeane went out and got Rasul Douglas....

[Solomon Grundy]

17 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Cam Lewis has NO BUSINESS on a NFL roster!! 

Well luckily Toney has big feet because he would have been part of "the lateral part 2" as well as the "knock the damn ball down" Justin Jefferson plays

[Dopey]

19 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Wow, that was nasty. In any event, my compliments for living up to your well deserved screen name! 👍👌

Nasty!?! Yeah, calling someone a lapdog is so classy. NYC classy, I guess. 
By the way, you’re not the first one to use the juvenile “screen name “ bit. I expect it when someone is called out and has nothing else to say. Good job. 

[Bill from NYC]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:09 PM, FireChans said:

As a Bama fan, it’s criminal that @Bill from NYC forgets that one of the best players on Bama is their five star CB Kool Aid McKinstry. 
 

Of course, Saban should have never offered him a scholarship. Because of Leodis McKelvin, or something. 

McKinstry is good, perhaps very good but he isn't even the best DB on the team.  Seriously, there are two if not 3 better starters, and a few backups that look excellent. More on this before the draft.

 

And yes, their secondary is stacked, but as good and deep as they are, their lives are made much easier by the improvement in their DL and the skill and once again depth of their LBs. 

 

I have read your posts. You know that football is now an offensive sport. Most games used to be determined by running and stopping the run. Those days are gone. Now passing wins games. We have a GREAT quarterback. Did you see that flat footed 35 yard pass against KC? Josh is a freak. He needs more and better receivers and blocking. Teams are able to draft safeties and zone corners in later rounds. You don't need Deon Sanders or Mel Blount to play in a zone. 

 

Anyway, I think it is clear that passing, pass protection, and pass rush on defense are the keys to winning these days. And the Bills backups seem to be doing  pretty well. I don't think the secondaryshould be neglected, but; making it your primary focus is a sure way to make your team a loser. 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Bill from NYC

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, Dopey said:

Nasty!?! Yeah, calling someone a lapdog is so classy. NYC classy, I guess. 
By the way, you’re not the first one to use the juvenile “screen name “ bit. I expect it when someone is called out and has nothing else to say. Good job. 

I didn't call YOU a lapdog. Either way, I do hope that you are able to calm down at some point. Perhaps a jog around the block if the weather holds up? 

 

Since we used the word "block," you might want to consider using that function on my posts. C'mon, neither of us would be missing much, wouldn't you say?

 

In any event, do be well. No hard feelings on this end.

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

I didn't call YOU a lapdog. Either way, I do hope that you are able to calm down at some point. Perhaps a jog around the block if the weather holds up? 

 

Since we used the word "block," you might want to consider using that function on my posts. C'mon, neither of us would be missing much, wouldn't you say?

 

In any event, do be well. No hard feelings on this end.

I realize who you were calling a lap dog. Never said it was me you were referring to. 😂

I called someone out for name calling by someone who brought up class. 

This place is fun, I don’t block idiotic post or posters. You’re welcome to though. 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

He’s a “break glass in case of emergency” guy at this point if healthy. He’ll get one more chance to show what he’s got in next seasons camp. If that fails, he’ll forever be enshrined in the Bills “Busts of Honor” gallery 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

McKinstry is good, perhaps very good but he isn't even the best DB on the team.  Seriously, there are two if not 3 better starters, and a few backups that look excellent. More on this before the draft.

 

And yes, their secondary is stacked, but as good and deep as they are, their lives are made much easier by the improvement in their DL and the skill and once again depth of their LBs. 

 

I have read your posts. You know that football is now and offensive sport. Most games used to be determined by running and stopping the run. Those days are gone. Now passing wins games. We have a GREAT quarterback. Did you see that flat footed 35 yard pass against KC? Josh is a freak. He needs more and better receivers and blocking. Teams are able to draft safeties and zone corners in later rounds. You don't need Deon Sanders or Mel Blount to play in a zone. 

 

Anyway, I think it is clear that passing, pass protection, and pass rush on defense are the keys to winning these days. And the Bills backups seem to be doing  pretty well. I don't think the secondaryshould be neglected, but; making it your primary focus is a sure way to make your team a loser. 

 

I think it’s fair to value QB’s, pass rushers, pass catchers and LT’s above DB’s, when it comes to first round value. 
 

I don’t think it’s fair to treat drafting a CB in the late first round like we keep drafting running backs, punters or safeties.

 

if they truly weren’t that valuable, they wouldn’t be the third or fourth highest paid position group league-wide. And they wouldn’t be constantly drafted in the first round.  Do you disagree with that? 

[Drew21PA]

If he’s never active on a roster I root for again I’d be satisfied 

 

how you watched him this year and want him out there again is beyond me

[Bill from NYC]

7 hours ago, FireChans said:

I think it’s fair to value QB’s, pass rushers, pass catchers and LT’s above DB’s, when it comes to first round value. 
 

I don’t think it’s fair to treat drafting a CB in the late first round like we keep drafting running backs, punters or safeties.

 

if they truly weren’t that valuable, they wouldn’t be the third or fourth highest paid position group league-wide. And they wouldn’t be constantly drafted in the first round.  Do you disagree with that? 

I do not, although I did read somewhere that their salaries have been decreasing as of late. I don't remember where. 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I do not, although I did read somewhere that their salaries have been decreasing as of late. I don't remember where. 

2017:

6 CB's in the first round

 

2018:

3 CB's

 

2019:

1 CB

 

2020:

6 CB's

 

2021:

0 CB's

 

2022:

4 CB's

 

2023:

1 CB

 

Now, with all of those numbers, and the Bills only having made two of those 21 first round picks, I think we can all agree that the fascination of the first round CB selection is not some unique Bills Marvy Levy Dick Jauron voodoo.

 

[Bill from NYC]

12 hours ago, FireChans said:

2017:

6 CB's in the first round

 

2018:

3 CB's

 

2019:

1 CB

 

2020:

6 CB's

 

2021:

0 CB's

 

2022:

4 CB's

 

2023:

1 CB

 

Now, with all of those numbers, and the Bills only having made two of those 21 first round picks, I think we can all agree that the fascination of the first round CB selection is not some unique Bills Marvy Levy Dick Jauron voodoo.

 

Ok but I will speculate that most, if not all of these teams took care of more pressing needs first, unlike McDermott who upon his arrival in Buffalo

traded away the #10 pick to KC (who took Mahomes). Do you think that trading down from the Mahomes pick when we were in need of a quarterback was a smart move? To illustrate just how bad the need was  at the time, our QBs were Tyrod Taylor, Cardale Jones, and EJ Manuel. McDermott moved down 17 spots. His compensation? The #27 picks of rounds 1 and 3.  I make the case that we were inadequately compensated for this idiotic trade.

Can we agree on this? Since then McDermott's drafts have focused mostly on defense, to include trading up for a middle linebacker. Not good strategy imo. 

 

So, what are McDermott's assets/strengths? Drafting? Free agent signings? Trades (getting Josh was GREAT). What other trades were good? Two minute drills? I think not. 

 

If you like him, that's great. Obviously, every fan is entitled to do so. Of course, every fan is also entitled to be less than thrilled with the way that he runs this team. 

 

I'll tell ya what, if McDermott can overcome his annual midseason slump and win us a title, I will happily join his cheering section, complete with yelling "Sis Boom Bah." the whole deal. I hope to be doing so.

 

Seriously, thanks for the dialogue! I do appreciate it.  👍🏈

[GunnerBill]

15 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I do not, although I did read somewhere that their salaries have been decreasing as of late. I don't remember where. 

 

They haven't been decreasing. They have been overtaken by offensive tackle in terms of average (among starters). But it is still a premium payment position. 

 

1. Quarterback

2. Wide Receiver

3. Edge Rusher

4. Offensive Tackle

5. Corner

 

They are the 5 premium payment positions.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

30 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Seriously, thanks for the dialogue! I do appreciate it.  👍🏈

That 🏈 is the exclusive property of 

📯🌟MJ🏈10🌟📯   ™️®️©️,

and his attorneys will have to ask you to cease and desist using it.

 

[GunnerBill]

32 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

 

So, what are McDermott's assets/strengths? Drafting? Free agent signings? Trades (getting Josh was GREAT). What other trades were good? 

 

Other than in 2017 those tasks have not been his job. 

 

But I'd submit that Brandon Beane made a pretty good trade for Stefon Diggs. 

13 hours ago, FireChans said:

2017:

6 CB's in the first round

 

2018:

3 CB's

 

2019:

1 CB

 

2020:

6 CB's

 

2021:

0 CB's

 

2022:

4 CB's

 

2023:

1 CB

 

Now, with all of those numbers, and the Bills only having made two of those 21 first round picks, I think we can all agree that the fascination of the first round CB selection is not some unique Bills Marvy Levy Dick Jauron voodoo.

 

 

 

Your numbers are off (low). There were 4 in 2023 - Witherspoon, Gonzalez, Forbes and Banks and there were at least two in 2021 from memory - Surtain who is an elite corner and Greg Newsome. There may have been one more too but struggling to recall.  

 

[The Wiz]

Interesting to see this.

 

https://www.niagara-gazette.com/sports/bills-notebook-kaiir-elam-details-how-much-ligament-tear-impacted-early-season-performance/article_d129caa0-99fb-11ee-9de3-b7446efebf19.html

 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They haven't been decreasing. They have been overtaken by offensive tackle in terms of average (among starters). But it is still a premium payment position. 

 

1. Quarterback

2. Wide Receiver

3. Edge Rusher

4. Offensive Tackle

5. Corner

 

They are the 5 premium payment positions.

When you say "edge rusher," are you combining DEs and OLB's?  If so this would place CB at 6, no?

 

Either way, this would put the CB position ahead of Safety, ILB, Centers, Guards, and DT. Sounds like middle of the pack from where I sit. 

 

Is CB the position that you want the Bills to be built around? They seem to be doing OK with later round picks playing in their zone. Do you insist on more first rounders?

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Ok but I will speculate that most, if not all of these teams took care of more pressing needs first, unlike McDermott who upon his arrival in Buffalo

traded away the #10 pick to KC (who took Mahomes). Do you think that trading down from the Mahomes pick when we were in need of a quarterback was a smart move? To illustrate just how bad the need was  at the time, our QBs were Tyrod Taylor, Cardale Jones, and EJ Manuel. McDermott moved down 17 spots. His compensation? The #27 picks of rounds 1 and 3.  I make the case that we were inadequately compensated for this idiotic trade.

Can we agree on this? Since then McDermott's drafts have focused mostly on defense, to include trading up for a middle linebacker. Not good strategy imo. 

 

So, what are McDermott's assets/strengths? Drafting? Free agent signings? Trades (getting Josh was GREAT). What other trades were good? Two minute drills? I think not. 

 

If you like him, that's great. Obviously, every fan is entitled to do so. Of course, every fan is also entitled to be less than thrilled with the way that he runs this team. 

 

I'll tell ya what, if McDermott can overcome his annual midseason slump and win us a title, I will happily join his cheering section, complete with yelling "Sis Boom Bah." the whole deal. I hope to be doing so.

 

Seriously, thanks for the dialogue! I do appreciate it.  👍🏈

Your speculation is wrong.
 

in 2017, the Saints had a declining Drew Brees when they took Lattimore. The Raiders had Derek Carr, a guy who at best, is just at the line of not good enough. Titans took Jackson and they were still trying to figure out what Mariota was.

 

I can do this forever.

I think Tre White over Mahomes was a gaffe. Don’t get me wrong. I just don’t think it’s some conspiracy to over draft CB’s. I think McD and co. didn’t want to pull the trigger on a QB when they had only Whaley info to base it off of. Not unreasonable, despite still being a mistake.

 

You want to talk strengths? McD’s system turned Poyer and Hyde, fringe solid FA’s into two of the best safeties in the NFL. McD took a fifth round pick in Milano and made him a star. He wrung every drop of production out of bums and UDFA in Levi Wallace and EJ Gaines, got a guy like Christian Benford to execute his system. 
 

His greatest strength is his DB room. No wonder you don’t like him lol

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Other than in 2017 those tasks have not been his job. 

 

But I'd submit that Brandon Beane made a pretty good trade for Stefon Diggs. 

 

 

Your numbers are off (low). There were 4 in 2023 - Witherspoon, Gonzalez, Forbes and Banks and there were at least two in 2021 from memory - Surtain who is an elite corner and Greg Newsome. There may have been one more too but struggling to recall.  

 

PFR is annoying and lists them as DB just to screw with me

[Bill from NYC]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think Tre White over Mahomes was a gaffe. Don’t get me wrong. I just don’t think it’s some conspiracy to over draft CB’s. I think McD and co. didn’t want to pull the trigger on a QB when they had only Whaley info to base it off of. Not unreasonable, despite still being a mistake.

 

You want to talk strengths? McD’s system turned Poyer and Hyde, fringe solid FA’s into two of the best safeties in the NFL. McD took a fifth round pick in Milano and made him a star. He wrung every drop of production out of bums and UDFA in Levi Wallace and EJ Gaines, got a guy like Christian Benford to execute his system. 
 

 

Not taking Mahomes was (imo) inexcusable. He was even drastically undercompensated for trading down 17 spots. It was a sophmoric move and I'm being kind.

 

The strengths you list are commendable no doubt. I also hold them as proof that in his zone defensive system, first round corners need not be a priority. He actually went for some offense last year in the draft. Let's see what he does in 24.

 

Providing Josh with receivers and blocking would be pretty cool, rather than trading up for ILBs and corners, no?

[FireChans]

13 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Not taking Mahomes was (imo) inexcusable. He was even drastically undercompensated for trading down 17 spots. It was a sophmoric move and I'm being kind.

 

The strengths you list are commendable no doubt. I also hold them as proof that in his zone defensive system, first round corners need not be a priority. He actually went for some offense last year in the draft. Let's see what he does in 24.

 

Providing Josh with receivers and blocking would be pretty cool, rather than trading up for ILBs and corners, no?

Josh has blocking. They may want to draft an OT relatively high to prepare for life after Dawkins, or a C for life after Morse, but there is not a glaring need on OL imo.

 

WR is number one priority. Should have been #1 priority last year too. They tried to skimp with Harty and Sherfield and it was a predictable disaster. By the same token, if they have a stud OT, or stud CB or even EDGE player waiting around their 1st pick, and the WR value isn’t there, I won’t kill them for targeting a better player. 

 

1 WR taken in the top 4 rounds since 2018 is criminal. No doubt about it. But 1 CB taken in the top 4 rounds since 2018 is not criminal, based on positional value alone. That’s pretty much my point.