Does the 2023 Bills defence get a pass because McD is coaching it?

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Again, you are failing to see the point that it is all connected.  The poor offensive play contributed to the poor 3rd down defense, along with the injuries.  Your premise that the defensive issues are McD's fault is asinine.

The Falcons defense held the Jags to fewer yards and points w a significantly more inept offense

[GunnerBill]

They get a pass yesterday because by the 2nd series they were down:

 

Their best defensive player

Both starting corners

Their best EDGE player (at least until Von proves himself healthy)

And their 1T

 

By the end of the game (when the Jags scored two touchdowns) they had a practice squad defensive tackle on their 1st team DL as an edge. 

[BananaB]

No pass at all. Since Josh was drafted the defense has always been put ahead of the O. Countless picks who are slow to develop and numerous FA signings to play ahead of them. Don’t care about injuries, just get the job done. Sunday I seen the same defense that struggled to get off the field and gave up long sustaining drives late last season. Just getting old. 

[Dablitzkrieg]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The Falcons defense held the Jags to fewer yards and points w a significantly more inept offense

And?

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The Falcons defense held the Jags to fewer yards and points w a significantly more inept offense

Jags flew to London on Thursday before that game fwiw. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Dablitzkrieg said:

And?

I thought you and everyone else in this thread were making the point that the Bills offensive performance was just to poor to overcome

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

shhhh!!!!  Can't say that.  

 

Cincy was down 3 OL vs. Bills in the playoffs yet overcame.

 

It seems like you want a lot of credit for this thread.  Nobody knows why, but that's what it seems like.

[Dablitzkrieg]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I thought you and everyone else in this thread were making the point that the Bills offensive performance was just to poor to overcome

It was part of it

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

no.

 

i am expecting schemes and gameplans that can match the offense.

 

the first two series against the raiders we were outplayed, outcoached, and exposed a little bit. that an offense can prepare a gameplan in one week and execute against our defense week 2 with jimmy g at the helm was concerning.

 

our players make the defense great, not coach.

Oh okay, so outside of the first two series against the Raiders did the defense atone for their slow start? Was it worth complaining about their performance? Again, you’re expecting perfection, robots, the other team gets paid to make plays too. As I said earlier, if the offense could sustain drives and put up points against the Jags, Bills win. It’s really that simple. There would be no complaints about the defensive performance after the game. But because we lost, here you are…?
 

The defense kept us in that game and got the ball back for the offense multiple times. This was mostly an offensive failure, that’s not to completely absolve the defense, but the game was lost on the offensive side of the ball. There’s no other way to slice it, no matter your dislike of the defensive coaches.

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

It was part of it

Which part? How was the Falcons defense able to limit the Jags to 16 first downs, 5/14 on third down, and just 300total yards of offense when their offense turned the ball over 3 times and could only muster 287 total yards?

[boyst]

6 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Oh okay, so outside of the first two series against the Raiders did the defense atone for their slow start? Was it worth complaining about their performance? Again, you’re expecting perfection, robots, the other team gets paid to make plays too. As I said earlier, if the offense could sustain drives and put up points against the Jags, Bills win. It’s really that simple. There would be no complaints about the defensive performance after the game. But because we lost, here you are…?
 

The defense kept us in that game and got the ball back for the offense multiple times. This was mostly an offensive failure, that’s not to completely absolve the defense, but the game was lost on the offensive side of the ball. There’s no other way to slice it, no matter your dislike of the defensive coaches.

youre really grasping at what i think. and i don't care about the offense in this thread.

 

i saw enough in those two series to be concerned. the offense had a gameplan they worked on and executed it well enough to take advantage of our defense who came out strong but not great.

 

and, there would be complaints.  too often i think people forget the situation we are in... we are fanatics of a team who spend our free time looking at an internet website to our favorite but obscure football team, listen to countless hours of wgr, and generally only hear the same information repeated over and over again so much so that when anyone contradicts what we tell ourselves we make threads roasting them.

 

and beyond that.... even if it was just 5-10 minutes of play that concerned me against oakland for our defense does not take away what was observed. the raiders did not play consistent when the script ran out.

[Warcodered]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

They get a pass yesterday because by the 2nd series they were down:

 

Their best defensive player

Both starting corners

Their best EDGE player (at least until Von proves himself healthy)

And their 1T

 

By the end of the game (when the Jags scored two touchdowns) they had a practice squad defensive tackle on their 1st team DL as an edge. 

But the Raiders scored 10 points on us....this is somehow relevant to this conversation. 🤷‍♂️

[Brand J]

2 minutes ago, boyst said:

youre really grasping at what i think. and i don't care about the offense in this thread.

 

i saw enough in those two series to be concerned. the offense had a gameplan they worked on and executed it well enough to take advantage of our defense who came out strong but not great.

 

and, there would be complaints.  too often i think people forget the situation we are in... we are fanatics of a team who spend our free time looking at an internet website to our favorite but obscure football team, listen to countless hours of wgr, and generally only hear the same information repeated over and over again so much so that when anyone contradicts what we tell ourselves we make threads roasting them.

 

and beyond that.... even if it was just 5-10 minutes of play that concerned me against oakland for our defense does not take away what was observed. the raiders did not play consistent when the script ran out.

That’s the problem, you should. Can’t fault one undermanned unit for the loss without recognizing the bigger shortcomings on the other side of the ball. But hey, if you’re still the type to complain about a defensive performance that holds the other team to 10 total points, then that’s your prerogative I guess. 

[boyst]

Just now, JayBaller10 said:

That’s the problem, you should. Can’t fault one undermanned unit for the loss without recognizing the bigger shortcomings on the other side of the ball. But hey, if you’re still the type to complain about a defensive performance that holds the other team to 10 total points, then that’s your prerogative I guess. 

this thread is about the defense. not the ofense.

[Brand J]

Just now, boyst said:

this thread is about the defense. not the ofense.

Nothing is ever in a vacuum. The defense had its faults, no one is saying otherwise, but to ignore other circumstances that forced them to be on the field longer than they should have, doesn’t make for an intelligent argument. AND they were missing multiple high end starters. 

[Royale with Cheese]

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Which part? How was the Falcons defense able to limit the Jags to 16 first downs, 5/14 on third down, and just 300total yards of offense when their offense turned the ball over 3 times and could only muster 287 total yards?

 

The Falcons defense had healthy players.

It wasn't just the talent level, it was exhaustion.  I don't think you saw Eli Ankou playing a significant amount on the edge because one DE is exhausted, the other one coming off the field and another on a pitch count....not to mention the other 2 starting ends were out.

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Nothing is ever in a vacuum. The defense had its faults, no one is saying otherwise, but to ignore other circumstances that forced them to be on the field longer than they should have, doesn’t make for an intelligent argument. AND they were missing multiple high end starters. 

I'm not ignoring the the offense. I'm just letting this thread focus on the defense.

 

Frankly, I'm not concerned the offense anyway. We have great skill players and Josh Allen. We can put 40 pts on anyone.

[Brand J]

18 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Which part? How was the Falcons defense able to limit the Jags to 16 first downs, 5/14 on third down, and just 300total yards of offense when their offense turned the ball over 3 times and could only muster 287 total yards?

Let’s ignore the fact that both teams arrived in London at relatively the same time.
Is it possible Trevor Lawrence and that struggling offense got up for and simply played much better against the Bills? What are you trying to get at here? We’ve seen teams look all world one week and then crap the bed the next. Doesn’t mean they’re inferior to the teams they lost to, just means they didn’t have it that day. Even a putrid offense rises to the occasion every once in awhile and I wouldn’t call the Jags putrid, they’ve just been struggling. If the Bills offense could’ve stayed on the field and scored points, I surmise many would still believe the Jags were a struggling offense because they would’ve had less time to move the ball and they still might’ve done the things to shoot themselves in the foot.

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The Falcons defense had healthy players.

It wasn't just the talent level, it was exhaustion.  I don't think you saw Eli Ankou playing a significant amount on the edge because one DE is exhausted, the other one coming off the field and another on a pitch count....not to mention the other 2 starting ends were out.

I never disputed that the defense was at a personnel disadvantage, I disputed that they played well

[Brand J]

5 minutes ago, boyst said:

I'm not ignoring the the offense. I'm just letting this thread focus on the defense.

 

Frankly, I'm not concerned the offense anyway. We have great skill players and Josh Allen. We can put 40 pts on anyone.

Your first sentence is a contradiction. Zeroing in and focusing on one unit (all the while refusing to talk about or acknowledge the impact the other has on that unit) is by definition ignoring the offense. Doesn’t work like that. Can’t throw away circumstances.

 

This team will go as far as the offense carries them, so while all the defensive injuries suck, if the offense can’t duke it out with the KCs and MIAs, and any other unit across from them, it won’t matter anyway. I’m concerned about it all because I hope for a SB win.
 

 

[boyst]

Just now, JayBaller10 said:

Your first sentence is a contradiction. Zeroing in and focusing on one unit (all the while refusing to talk about or acknowledge the impact the other has on that unit) is by definition ignoring the offense. Doesn’t work like that. Can’t throw away circumstances.

 

This team will go as far as the offense carries them, so while all the defensive injuries suck, if the offense can’t duke it out with the KCs and MIAs, and any other unit across from them, it won’t matter anyway. I’m concerned about it all because I hope for a SB win.
 

 

This thread is about defense. I am simply asking people to talk about the problems on defense specifically.

 

I don't think anyone in the NFL doesn't think the bills are capable of "duking it out" with anyone on offense. 

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, Success said:

I thought they were amazing yesterday.  They were on the field almost twice as long as the offense.

 

I give up.  500 yards and they were amazing?  Unbelievable what homers are here.

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

This thread is about defense. I am simply asking people to talk about the problems on defense specifically.

 

I don't think anyone in the NFL doesn't think the bills are capable of "duking it out" with anyone on offense. 

Problems on defense were pretty apparent: untimely penalties, Jags had 4 first downs converted by a flag IIRC. They had multiple starters get hurt and already had a few missing from the lineup. They couldn’t win with 4, so McD resorted to blitzing to get the ball out of Trevor’s hand quick (which resulted in a crucial completion with Hyde covering Ridley). What matters most is points, so if the Jags moved the ball up and down the field, but the Bills got a timely sack that pushes them out of FG range, or a turnover to negate a drive, you can say they made the plays when it counted. Because they were missing so many crucial starters? I called their performance “admirable.” Anyone on this board would’ve signed up for 11 pts through 3 quarters. 

And of course the Bills offense can go toe to toe with any other in the league… but they have to do it. And if they don’t, it’s another year without the Lombardi trophy. 

[Jauronimo]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

How did they get into the red zone?  The D let them there.  40 minutes time of possession is all you need to know. Always excuses and sorry A lot of it has to do because McDermott is the coach on that side of the ball now.

40 minutes of TOP was because the offense couldn't stay on the field.

 

Look at this drive chart:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401547228

 

1. 3 plays, 1:25, punt

2. 3 plays, 1:56, punt

3. 6 plays, 2:06, punt

4. 4 plays, 2:24, punt

5. 11 plays 4:30, TD

6. 4 plays, 1:26, punt

7. 4 plays, 1:34, punt

8. 4 plays, 1:43, INT  (remarkably, the score was only 11-7 at this moment and the game was winnable)

9. 4 plays, 0:45, TD

11 minutes ago, boyst said:

This thread is about defense. I am simply asking people to talk about the problems on defense specifically.

 

I don't think anyone in the NFL doesn't think the bills are capable of "duking it out" with anyone on offense. 

We have losses to two of the shittiest offenses in the NFL.  So theres that.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I give up.  500 yards and they were amazing?  Unbelievable what homers are here.

 

The Jags didn't move the ball with any consistency until the 4th and the game was 11-7.

We've seen this before.  You don't think the score is what matters, its yards.

 

We were down:

• Matt Milano
• DaQuan Jones
• Von Miller
• Greg Rousseau
• Leonard Floyd
• Tre White
• Christian Benford
• Shaq Lawson

I honestly think you believe that back ups and practice squad players who are exhausted should have the same level of productivity as All Pro's.  

 

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Problems on defense were pretty apparent: untimely penalties, Jags had 4 first downs converted by a flag IIRC. They had multiple starters get hurt and already had a few missing from the lineup. They couldn’t win with 4, so McD resorted to blitzing to get the ball out of Trevor’s hand quick (which resulted in a crucial completion with Hyde covering Ridley). What matters most is points, so if the Jags moved the ball up and down the field, but the Bills got a timely sack that pushes them out of FG range, or a turnover to negate a drive, you can say they made the plays when it counted. Because they were missing so many crucial starters? I called their performance “admirable.” Anyone on this board would’ve signed up for 11 pts through 3 quarters. 

And of course the Bills offense can go toe to toe with any other in the league… but they have to do it. And if they don’t, it’s another year without the Lombardi trophy. 

so can we just focus on one statement here now that you're addressing defense? 

 

we couldn't win with 4 and with 4 we were getting toasted in the backfield... we tried 5 and 6 and it made no difference. don't you think we should have tried somethign else?

[teef]

1 minute ago, High Football IQ said:

Nope, even with the injuries mounting this defense wasn't/isn't as good as some folks thought especially since they padded their stats against bottom feeders like the Raiders and Redskins.

 

Injuries will now be the annual excuse again watching this unit get lit up the rest of the year by much better teams than the Jets and Jaguars that's for sure.

well hey you.

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

40 minutes of TOP was because the offense couldn't stay on the field.

 

Look at this drive chart:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401547228

 

1. 3 plays, 1:25, punt

2. 3 plays, 1:56, punt

3. 6 plays, 2:06, punt

4. 4 plays, 2:24, punt

5. 11 plays 4:30, TD

6. 4 plays, 1:26, punt

7. 4 plays, 1:34, punt

8. 4 plays, 1:43, INT  (remarkably, the score was only 11-7 at this moment and the game was winnable)

9. 4 plays, 0:45, TD

We have losses to two of the shittiest offenses in the NFL.  So theres that.

i mean, we did make lawrence and dude from the jets look all pro

 

i hate pulling on mcdermott all the time but it's been a theme with him being here that we play to our opponents level. i don't remember that with cinci the last few years, or vrabel ever... not saying they are better coaches but they are two that come to mind that get their guys going. oh, and carpenter in detroit always brings his squad out to play

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

so can we just focus on one statement here now that you're addressing defense? 

 

we couldn't win with 4 and with 4 we were getting toasted in the backfield... we tried 5 and 6 and it made no difference. don't you think we should have tried somethign else?

If 4, 5, and 6 isn’t working, what’s the only other alternative? Rush 3 and cover with 8? With a defense missing much of their top end talent? 

[Billsfan1972]

16 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

40 minutes of TOP was because the offense couldn't stay on the field.

 

Look at this drive chart:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay/_/gameId/401547228

 

1. 3 plays, 1:25, punt

2. 3 plays, 1:56, punt

3. 6 plays, 2:06, punt

4. 4 plays, 2:24, punt

5. 11 plays 4:30, TD

6. 4 plays, 1:26, punt

7. 4 plays, 1:34, punt

8. 4 plays, 1:43, INT  (remarkably, the score was only 11-7 at this moment and the game was winnable)

9. 4 plays, 0:45, TD

We have losses to two of the shittiest offenses in the NFL.  So theres that.

How about looking at Jax and their possessions.  9,9,8,7,7,17,10,5(TD).....  That's the offences fault?

[GerstAusGosheim]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yep not Frazier so many are happy.

 

Yes injuries too.

 

Yesterday they were not good, but get a pass.  Is this because of McD

 

Frazier certainly did not get a pass in the Bengals playoff game missing Von, Daquon Jones, Hyde, Damar and 1/2 Poyer – while the O absolutely sucked. 

 

Why would Sean?

 

But this isn't the right game to ask that question, because the D played pretty well.

 

[Low Positive]

19 minutes ago, High Football IQ said:

Nope, even with the injuries mounting this defense wasn't/isn't as good as some folks thought especially since they padded their stats against bottom feeders like the Raiders and Redskins.

 

Injuries will now be the annual excuse again watching this unit get lit up the rest of the year by much better teams than the Jets and Jaguars that's for sure.

I'm a little confused. Reading your post, I see that the Bills played the Jets, Raiders, Commanders, and Jags. That's only 4 teams. How can that be? Did the BIlls get a week 4 bye? Something's missing.

[RiotAct]

our defense has been excellent so far this season.  Yes we gave up 25 (about league-average?) yesterday against the Jags, but we were fielding a M.A.S.H. unit who was out there for like 40 minutes of the contest.

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Billsfan1972 said:

How about looking at Jax and their possessions.  9,9,8,7,7,17,10,5(TD).....  That's the offences fault?

The offenses fault is that they couldn't stay on the field or score points.  You cited 40 minutes of Jax TOP as if its only a function of defense.  If offense puts together the occasional drive, the Bills TOP improves.  If Bills TOP improves the defense has more time to rest.  Since games are of finite length, that leaves less time for the opponent to possess the ball.  Do you understand these concepts?

The offense hung a defensive unit missing half its starters out to dry all game.  Any other interpretation of the game is critically flawed.  But sure, maybe if the defense got off the field a little sooner then Martin could have uncorked a few more bombs.

 

[Billsfan1972]

3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

The offenses fault is that they couldn't stay on the field or score points.  You cited 40 minutes of Jax TOP as if its only a function of defense.  If offense puts together the occasional drive, the Bills TOP improves.  If Bills TOP improves the defense has more time to rest.  Since games are of finite length, that leaves less time for the opponent to possess the ball.  Do you understand these concepts?

The offense hung a defensive unit missing half its starters out to dry all game.  Any other interpretation of the game is critically flawed.  But sure, maybe if the defense got off the field a little sooner then Martin could have uncorked a few more bombs.

 

No TOP is due to the defence not getting a stop and allowing long drives.  I've already said I think Dorsey needs to unleash Allen and was obvious the dinks and dunks weren't working.  

 

 

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

The offenses fault is that they couldn't stay on the field or score points.  You cited 40 minutes of Jax TOP as if its only a function of defense.  If offense puts together the occasional drive, the Bills TOP improves.  If Bills TOP improves the defense has more time to rest.  Since games are of finite length, that leaves less time for the opponent to possess the ball.  Do you understand these concepts?

The offense hung a defensive unit missing half its starters out to dry all game.  Any other interpretation of the game is critically flawed.  But sure, maybe if the defense got off the field a little sooner then Martin could have uncorked a few more bombs.

 

It's obviously a two sided coin but the fact that a Falcons defense of whom I would challenge you to name one single starter managed a significantly better performance despite a wholly inept offensive counterpart just a week prior has to be mentioned imo

[Freddie's Dead]

2 hours ago, boyst said:

did you see or notice anything was wrong with the defense or see flaws in any part of that 1/3?

 

Yes, Elam was hung out to dry by McDummy.  Elam was clearly rusty and had no business covering Ridley.  It was comical after a while, except the lack of adjustment by McDummy was no laughing matter.  He had no answers.  So McD decides to humiliate the kid even further by benching him late.  How to win friends and waste first-round draft picks.

[Buffalo Boy]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yesterday they were not good

WTF have you been smoking.

They were great considering the situation that they found themselves in.

It was the O that was the problem…..👿

[boyst]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

If 4, 5, and 6 isn’t working, what’s the only other alternative? Rush 3 and cover with 8? With a defense missing much of their top end talent? 

We will never know because it wasn't tried. What we tried didn't work and we kept trying. 

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, Success said:

I thought they were amazing yesterday.  They were on the field almost twice as long as the offense.

 

 

Funny you mention that, I took a glance. 

 

Not one team in the league this weekend allowed more 1st-Downs. 

 

Only one team allowed more total yards, that was the Giants' D against Miami.  

 

Only one team allowed greater Time-of-Possession, that was the pathetic Pats.  

 

So we're essentially being asked to believe that considering the injuries, the D that we fielded yesterday was literally the worst in the entire league.  

 

That's a tough sell even if it were true.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Defense was not why we lost yesterday.  

 

We lost for several reasons, primarily that we were simply outcoached.  Let's not forget to give credit to Pederson and his staff, Lawrence and their team.  They outplayed us. 

 

Otherwise, and to what extent, poor (travel) planning, injuries, and per the above, play-calling.  

 

Two of those three were entirely avoidable.