Does the 2023 Bills defence get a pass because McD is coaching it?

[Boatdrinks]

25 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

How about they force a few 3 & outs?  Lawrence had 200 yards passing the first half.

Amazing how different a defense looks down 2 starting CBs, an all pro LB , starting DE and their best interior D lineman. 

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Glad you were looking forward to it.

 

Review the play by play and how many third and longs Jax converted ( many inside their 10 yard line).  One play flips the field.

.

Sorry I'm not a yes man here on The Stadium Wall

 

We had one healthy defensive end by the 4th quarter who was exhausted.  One.

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

They came up with two turnovers and were down to third-string players.

did you see or notice anything was wrong with the defense or see flaws in any part of that 1/3?

[RiotAct]

27 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

The game was 11-7 entering the 4th.

 

this is it exactly.

 

The game was there for the taking if Diggs comes up with that 50/50 ball

[The Red King]

You can't handwave injuries away, and the time of possession was skewed bad b/c a perfectly healthy offense couldn't move the ball.

 

A patchwork D missing two of their best players generated two turnovers in the red zone and kept the Bills in that game.

 

The Bills D were an elite unit all season.  Tre goes down late last week, Milano early this week and all of a sudden the team has a harder time getting the other team off the field?  It's...*gasp*...almost like losing five defensive player actually makes a defense worse !

 

Anyone that argues otherwise...don't bother debating them.  They'd have to be incredibly dim not to see it, or they're willfully ignorant, locked into confirmation bias.  Either way, you're not going to change their mind.

Edited October 9, 2023 by The Red King

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Q: what's the primary concern of the defense?

 

Perhaps the OP can answer that question

 

[boyst]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We had one healthy defensive end by the 4th quarter who was exhausted.  One.

they kept sending him in ears pinned back, unfortunately. it takes a bigger toll for him to run block, gap protect, or set the edge but we limited his effectiveness by design of the play and scheme.

 

if we dropped more into coverage without rushing 5/6 he may not have had to fight so hard all the time.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said:

Amazing how different a defense looks down 2 starting CBs, an all pro LB , starting DE and their best interior D lineman. 

 

Not only that, our other starting DE, Floyd was out as well.  We basically had our top 3 DE's out.

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

 

-----------------------

 

 

 

all of you need to make an argument and statements about the defense without mentioning the offense. everyone keeps playing the game... "yeah but the offense..." and it needs to be a nonstarter of the conversation. the defense had a lot of problems in play, execution, schemes, and coaching.

 

i can leverage some argument on injury but this staff wasn't prepared for that when they must be considering we have some old ass players.

 

so please, try again to address the topic of mcdermotts defense without a red herring or obfuscating the offensive liability.

When the defense is keeping it under 20, has been holding them out of the endzone since the first quarter without any help from the Offense scoring points until the point where on key downs they literally have some of players that have been making plays on the sidelines getting oxygen, yes I say the offense failed them. You hold the other team to their 4 point lead for over half the ***** game, how else are you supposed to frame it?

[boyst]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Not only that, our other starting DE, Floyd was out as well.  We basically had our top 3 DE's out.

which is why it was ridiculous we went in with von miller out. we went in with 2 adequate DE's and a backup, and a recovering injured Miler.

 

it'd have made more sense to hold off on miller and brought up ??anyone else.

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, The Red King said:

You can't handwave injuries away, and the time of possession was skewed bad b/c a perfectly healthy offense couldn't move the ball.

 

A patchwork D missing two of their best players generated two turnovers in the red zone and kept the Bills in that game.

 

The Bills were an elite unit all season.  Tre goes down late last week, Milano early this week and all of a sudden the team has a harder time getting the other team off the field?  It's...*gasp*...almost like losing five defensive player actually makes a defense worse !

 

Anyone that argues otherwise...don't bother debating them.  They'd have to be incredibly dim not to see it, or they're willfully ignorant, locked into confirmation bias.  Either way, you're not going to change their mind.

Again explain the 3rd and long conversions inside the 10.  500 yards offence by Jax.  Yep they were great.    

[boyst]

Just now, Warcodered said:

When the defense is keeping it under 20, has been holding them out of the endzone since the first quarter without any help from the Offense scoring points until the point where on key downs they literally have some of players that have been making plays on the sidelines getting oxygen, yes I say the offense failed them. You hold the other team to their 4 point lead for over half the ***** game, how else are you supposed to frame it?

i do not give you any credit on the answer. so i ask like anyone else....

 

where did the defense have short comings? there were plenty that no one has brought up, even myself.

[BillsFan2313]

35 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yep not Frazier so many are happy.

 

Yes injuries too.

 

Yesterday they were not good, but get a pass.  Is this because of McD

 

40 mins top is on them.  But of course reading blame on the offence. They were not great the play calling was atrocious which seems to always be the case in close games but at the end of the day the defence was meh.....

 

They were down 4 starters, two were in game when already down to the 3rd and 4th CB. 

[Alphadawg7]

38 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The defense gets a pass because they lost 5 starters and still played better than a perfectly healthy offense over the course of the game. 
 

If your rickety defense holds a team to 11 points through 3.5 Q’s and your offense can only muster 7 points and keeps going three and out, there’s one unit that deserves the lion share of the blame. 

 

This. 

 

I mean I don't really understand how this thread can even exist today TBH

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

I think the defense played admirably given all the injuries.

 

HOWEVER

 

We allowed 474 yards, 29 first downs, and 38 minutes TOP**. 1st asterisk for the offense playing poorly (especially early) which is a big factor in TOP. 2nd asterisk for the Jags drives being sustained by weak penalty calls. 

 

If I'm grading the defense I'd give them a C-. The 5 sacks and 2 fumbles bring them up from a failing grade. 

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, boyst said:

 

-----------------------

 

 

 

all of you need to make an argument and statements about the defense without mentioning the offense. everyone keeps playing the game... "yeah but the offense..." and it needs to be a nonstarter of the conversation. the defense had a lot of problems in play, execution, schemes, and coaching.

 

i can leverage some argument on injury but this staff wasn't prepared for that when they must be considering we have some old ass players.

 

so please, try again to address the topic of mcdermotts defense without a red herring or obfuscating the offensive liability.

Yes, the defense had lots of problems.

 

Elam can’t cover a soul, our safeties look old and slow, the Jags gashed us on the ground, the backup linebackers were hit or miss, Von Miller didn’t look great, and their overall performance would have looked much worse if AJE didn’t make a couple of huge plays.

 

And despite all of that, the scoreboard still read 11 points in the fourth Q. 

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This. 

 

I mean I don't really understand how this thread can even exist today TBH

Because Bills fans here love excuses.  

 

As for the offense, I blame Dorsey thinking dinks and dunks and keeping Allen on a leash is the best use of his talent.

 

[boyst]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This. 

 

I mean I don't really understand how this thread can even exist today TBH

see below

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yes, the defense had lots of problems.

 

Elam can’t cover a soul, our safeties look old and slow, the Jags gashed us on the ground, the backup linebackers were hit or miss, Von Miller didn’t look great, and their overall performance would have looked much worse if AJE didn’t make a couple of huge plays.

 

And despite all of that, the scoreboard still read 11 points in the fourth Q. 

we are quick to make excuses for things that are inexcusable. having williams as a backup when he had no business on that field was inexcusable. he is not fit for a backup. klein is on the ps, and kirksey retired. both would have been better. we know their floor and it was higher than what williams offered.

 

the coverage schemes matching up elam to get burned constantly almost seemed like the coaches hate him. hyde is great and haad good leverage against ridley several times. he got beat, though. we could have done more to change the pressures which were not working to offer more coverage.

 

several things are getting forgotten and forgiven that fall on mcdermotts plate. including letting dorsey call a ***** hitch and pitch with several seconds on the clock?!?! that ***** was middle school. if mcdermott didn't know that play was going in than he needs to be fired. if mcdermott let it go in to be run he needs to be fired. that play call was inexcusable.

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

I think the defense played admirably given all the injuries.

 

HOWEVER

 

We allowed 474 yards, 29 first downs, and 38 minutes TOP**. 1st asterisk for the offense playing poorly (especially early) which is a big factor in TOP. 2nd asterisk for the Jags drives being sustained by weak penalty calls. 

 

If I'm grading the defense I'd give them a C-. The 5 sacks and 2 fumbles bring them up from a failing grade. 

Again 474 yards was a gutsy performance according to many.  The fumbles were deep in Buffalo territory and were on third down.  Yes was a possible 6 points.

 

Would rather have stopped Jax on 3rd and 11 from their 5 & 7 yard lines that would have flipped the momentum, TOP and game.

   

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Because Bills fans here love excuses.  

 

As for the offense, I blame Dorsey thinking dinks and dunks and keeping Allen on a leash is the best use of his talent.

 

 

Let me see if I understand you...the defense losing its best players is an excuse...the same defense who entered the London game BEFORE losing most those players was:

• 2nd fewest points allowed
• Largest margin of victory in NFL
• First in sacks
• First in Interception
• First in takeaways

And that is despite the fact we faced the top offense in the NFL in Miami, still the only team to shut them down and first to sack Tua.  But its an excuse when that same defense enters the game missing its starting corners in Tre and Benford and its best DE in Groot...then loses its best overall player in Milano and what had been the best DT in the NFL so far this year in Jones.  That is an excuse?

 

Guys who missed the game, exited the game, or had to miss plays in the game with injuries or other issues:

Tre, Benford, Groot, Milano, Jones, Von, Taron, and AJE.  I mean, that wouldn't be a terrible start to a pro bowl roster, and that is an excuse? And YET we still had only gave up 11 points until late into the 4th quarter.  

 

Come on...this thread is unreal.  The defense was utterly gutted and devastated Sunday.  Jones played 4 snaps for crying out loud, one of which where he got hurt was a massive tackle for loss to force a 3 and out.  

 

Excuses...you mean facts.  

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[GoBills808]

23 minutes ago, FireChans said:

It does a little bit lol. You agree with the premise.

 

we lost our best defensive player and 5 starters in totality. What is the normal expectation for a defense under those circumstances compared to a healthy offense with a top 2 QB and a top 5 WR?

 

If we lost Diggs and 4 offensive starters in totality as well, I’d call it a wash. But we didn’t. Those were our healthy boys having Bengals game flashbacks.

 

The game would’ve been over in the third quarter if AJ Epenesa didn’t start channeling the spirit of LT.

 

When you have a top flight QB and a top flight WR, the expectation is that they deliver. And that goes for the guys coaching them. They can’t play possum until there’s 7 minutes left. 

You know I'm right because the final score was 25-20 yet somehow everyone is spotting the defense two touchdowns lol

 

 

[Mikie2times]

The offense had a ton of yards and no points. 

 

The defense had a ton of yards and no points. 

 

At the end of the day the NFL is about points, not yards. So the defense played better than the offense. I don't know how you could see it any differently. 

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Let me see if I understand you...the defense losing its best players is an excuse...the same defense who entered the London game BEFORE losing most those players was:

• 2nd fewest points allowed
• Largest margin of victory in NFL
• First in sacks
• First in Interception
• First in takeaways

And that is despite the fact we faced the top offense in the NFL in Miami, still the only team to shut them down and first to sack Tua.  But its an excuse when that same defense enters the game missing its starting corners in Tre and Benford and its best DE in Groot...then loses its best overall player in Milano and what had been the best DT in the NFL so far this year in Jones.  That is an excuse?

 

Guys who missed the game, exited the game, or had to miss plays in the game with injuries or other issues:

Tre, Benford, Groot, Milano, Jones, Von, Taron, and AJE.  I mean, that wouldn't be a terrible start to a pro bowl roster, and that is an excuse? And YET we still had only gave up 11 points until late into the 4th quarter.  

 

Come on...this thread is unreal

 

And again Tua did move the ball and there were a # of 4th downs they didn't convert.

 

Of course their performances against Howell, Wilson & Jimmy G were outstanding. 

 

When out front and against under average QB's this is always the case with Buffalo's D.

 

Wait until they excel vs. Tyrod & Mac Jones and the superlatives that will be bestowed on them.    

[The Red King]

8 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again explain the 3rd and long conversions inside the 10.  500 yards offence by Jax.  Yep they were great.    

 

Six defensive starters out.  Here's a fact I shouldn't have to explain...backup players are not as good as starters.  So, when you have backups playing the D isn't going to play as well.  Shocking, I know.

 

If I hand you the box of straws will you stop grasping at them?

[boyst]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Let me see if I understand you...the defense losing its best players is an excuse...the same defense who entered the London game BEFORE losing most those players was:

• 2nd fewest points allowed
• Largest margin of victory in NFL
• First in sacks
• First in Interception
• First in takeaways

And that is despite the fact we faced the top offense in the NFL in Miami, still the only team to shut them down and first to sack Tua.  But its an excuse when that same defense enters the game missing its starting corners in Tre and Benford and its best DE in Groot...then loses its best overall player in Milano and what had been the best DT in the NFL so far this year in Jones.  That is an excuse?

 

Guys who missed the game, exited the game, or had to miss plays in the game with injuries or other issues:

Tre, Benford, Groot, Milano, Jones, Von, Taron, and AJE.  I mean, that wouldn't be a terrible start to a pro bowl roster, and that is an excuse? And YET we still had only gave up 11 points until late into the 4th quarter.  

 

Come on...this thread is unreal

 

you're a smart poster and i respect you and i agree some people are just to B word regardless of anything about how we didn't get 407 sacks, and 43 interceptions, and hold them to 0.0 points.

 

but, a few of here, including myself, saw problems that have been tendencies of our team for a while. it's almost a part of our identity.

 

this is not the first and only game in recent history (last 6-7 games) where we came out flat, listless, and unprepared on more than one front. detroit last year, miami twice are also on the list of games where we did not seem adequate.

 

i see tendencies i do not appreciate in lack of adjustments, even last year. and what the coaches let happen to elam was criminal.

[Boatdrinks]

8 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again 474 yards was a gutsy performance according to many.  The fumbles were deep in Buffalo territory and were on third down.  Yes was a possible 6 points.

 

Would rather have stopped Jax on 3rd and 11 from their 5 & 7 yard lines that would have flipped the momentum, TOP and game.

   

They did stop them on one of those , but an outrageously BS call vs Poyer on a 3rd down stop kept the drive alive. 

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, Billsfan1972 said:

And again Tua did move the ball and there were a # of 4th downs they didn't convert.

 

Of course their performances against Howell, Wilson & Jimmy G were outstanding. 

 

When out front and against under average QB's this is always the case with Buffalo's D.

 

Wait until they excel vs. Tyrod & Mac Jones and the superlatives that will be bestowed on them.    

 

Wait...wait..wait...did you just double down on this already horrible take by slamming the D in the previous 4 weeks too?  The same D giving up the 2nd fewest points in the NFL with the most sacks, turnovers, and interceptions in the league???  The only D to shut down Miami too?  The same D that held Hill to 3 catches for like 53 yards?  The fist D to sack Tua all year?  

 

Wow...just when I thought this take couldn't go and get worse you one up it.  Kudos, didn't see that coming

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, The Red King said:

 

Six defensive starters out.  Here's a fact I shouldn't have to explain...backup players are not as good as starters.  So, when you have backups playing the D isn't going to play as well.  Shocking, I know.

 

If I hand you the box of straws will you stop grasping at them?

Woe is me (and the Bills).  Make one play and the game flips.  The Bills made none (and the turnovers as said were deep in Buffalo territory again after sustained drives).

[The Red King]

2 minutes ago, boyst said:

you're a smart poster and i respect you and i agree some people are just to B word regardless of anything about how we didn't get 407 sacks, and 43 interceptions, and hold them to 0.0 points.

 

but, a few of here, including myself, saw problems that have been tendencies of our team for a while. it's almost a part of our identity.

 

this is not the first and only game in recent history (last 6-7 games) where we came out flat, listless, and unprepared on more than one front. detroit last year, miami twice are also on the list of games where we did not seem adequate.

 

i see tendencies i do not appreciate in lack of adjustments, even last year. and what the coaches let happen to elam was criminal.

 

Coming into yesterday, the Bills' defense surrendered an average of 12.25 points a game, and no more then 20 in any game.  (Reminder, the Jets' final TD was given up by special teams).  I fail to see anything of concern for them in those first four games.

[Alphadawg7]

7 minutes ago, boyst said:

you're a smart poster and i respect you and i agree some people are just to B word regardless of anything about how we didn't get 407 sacks, and 43 interceptions, and hold them to 0.0 points.

 

but, a few of here, including myself, saw problems that have been tendencies of our team for a while. it's almost a part of our identity.

 

this is not the first and only game in recent history (last 6-7 games) where we came out flat, listless, and unprepared on more than one front. detroit last year, miami twice are also on the list of games where we did not seem adequate.

 

i see tendencies i do not appreciate in lack of adjustments, even last year. and what the coaches let happen to elam was criminal.

 

Im not gonna dispute the fact this team tends to start slow...I say it all the time, the defense tends to give up an early easy TD before it clamps down.  Never understood why, on one hand its good to see in game adjustments work so often, but what is going wrong in the pregame script that keeps the players and D from coming out that way is a legit question.

 

But this defense has been amongst the the best in the NFL this year and much better under McD than Frazier  To slam the D like the OP is...well...its just absurd.  No team is perfect, plenty of things anyone can nit pick at with any team most weeks.  But the defense has been great.  We lost against the Jets because of Dorsey and Allens poor decisions pressing too hard.  We lost against the Jags because Dorsey is a moron and went away from everything we excel at...again.

 

That is the point here...to point fingers at the defense who still kept the Jags at 11 points late into the 4th missing 5 of its best players is incredibly misguided.  

Edited October 9, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, The Red King said:

 

Six defensive starters out.  Here's a fact I shouldn't have to explain...backup players are not as good as starters.  So, when you have backups playing the D isn't going to play as well.  Shocking, I know.

 

If I hand you the box of straws will you stop grasping at them?

on 3 of those 3rd downs we rushed 6, had williams in the middle lost, and had 4 in coverage.

 

in another one of those, pretty sure it was 3rd down... williams was lucky and there fore a pbu

[The Red King]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Woe is me (and the Bills).  Make one play and the game flips.  The Bills made none (and the turnovers as said were deep in Buffalo territory again after sustained drives).

 

If the Bills make a play...

 

Two Red Zone interruptions, saving 6-14 points.

 

Wait!  Um...uh...not THOSE plays.  Um...those don't count!  Because...reasons!

 

Really?

[The Jokeman]

57 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

shhhh!!!!  Can't say that.  

 

Cincy was down 3 OL vs. Bills in the playoffs yet overcame.

and we were down Daquan and Miller for that game. Yet the offense didn't do the defense any favors that game either. 

[Brand J]

33 minutes ago, boyst said:

 

-----------------------

 

 

 

all of you need to make an argument and statements about the defense without mentioning the offense. everyone keeps playing the game... "yeah but the offense..." and it needs to be a nonstarter of the conversation. the defense had a lot of problems in play, execution, schemes, and coaching.

 

i can leverage some argument on injury but this staff wasn't prepared for that when they must be considering we have some old ass players.

 

so please, try again to address the topic of mcdermotts defense without a red herring or obfuscating the offensive liability.

Can’t mention one unit without the other because they go hand in hand. Are you telling me if the offense was able to sustain drives and put up points, you’d still be complaining about the defense? Of course you wouldn’t, because if the offense could stay on the field the undermanned defense wouldn’t be sucking oxygen on the sidelines. And if the offense put up points, Bills win. It was so bad from an offensive perspective at one point, I was hoping the undermanned D could get more than a turnover and score. One unit wasn’t pulling their weight more than the other.

[boyst]

1 minute ago, The Red King said:

 

Coming into yesterday, the Bills' defense surrendered an average of 12.25 points a game, and no more then 20 in any game.  (Reminder, the Jets' final TD was given up by special teams).  I fail to see anything of concern for them in those first four games.

oh yeah, that redskins and oakland offense is so damn good!!! 

 

we stack up against miami perfectly and we had a chip on our shoulders there. we don't win that 10 of 10 times, especially with that margins.

 

and concerning your last statement, i don't know if i posted during the raiders game but i was greatly concerned and said something to @Just Jack. the raiders first 2 series were scripted plays that were just killing us showing a blueprint for possibilities. i was concerned then and remain conerned now

1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said:

Can’t mention one unit without the other because they go hand in hand. Are you telling me if the offense was able to sustain drives and put up points, you’d still be complaining about the defense? Of course you wouldn’t, because if the offense could stay on the field the undermanned defense wouldn’t be sucking oxygen on the sidelines. And if the offense put up points, Bills win. It was so bad from an offensive perspective at one point, I was hoping the undermanned D could get more than a turnover and score. One unit wasn’t pulling their weight more than the other.

yes.

 

i was complaining about the defense a ton during the raiders game.

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, The Red King said:

 

If the Bills make a play...

 

Two Red Zone interruptions, saving 6-14 points.

 

Wait!  Um...uh...not THOSE plays.  Um...those don't count!  Because...reasons!

 

Really?

Yes they made plays on third downs.  That was 2 of 18 third downs.  They did not on 10 of them, that Jax converted.  

 

I love how the 40 minutes TOP is 100% the Offences fault....😉

[Brand J]

2 minutes ago, boyst said:

yes.

 

i was complaining about the defense a ton during the raiders game.

It was 38-10 against the Raiders and you were complaining about the defense in that game?? Perhaps your expectations of how they should perform are greatly misguided. What are you expecting really? Shutouts every week? 

[Dablitzkrieg]

32 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again explain the 3rd and long conversions inside the 10.  500 yards offence by Jax.  Yep they were great.    

Again, you are failing to see the point that it is all connected.  The poor offensive play contributed to the poor 3rd down defense, along with the injuries.  Your premise that the defensive issues are McD's fault is asinine.

[Brand J]

5 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Again, you are failing to see the point that it is all connected.  The poor offensive play contributed to the poor 3rd down defense, along with the injuries.  Your premise that the defensive issues are McD's fault is asinine.

It’s wild that a couple posters here can’t see the obvious - an undermanned defense has to keep taking the field because their offensive counterparts can’t stay on it. And yet they want to tar and feather that unit? Despite allowing only 11 points through 3 quarters? Absolutely crazy. 

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

It was 38-10 against the Raiders and you were complaining about the defense in that game?? Perhaps your expectations of how they should perform are greatly misguided. What are you expecting really? Shutouts every week? 

no.

 

i am expecting schemes and gameplans that can match the offense.

 

the first two series against the raiders we were outplayed, outcoached, and exposed a little bit. that an offense can prepare a gameplan in one week and execute against our defense week 2 with jimmy g at the helm was concerning.

 

our players make the defense great, not coach.