There needs to be a thread of the officiating today

[HopelessNJBuffaloFan]

The officiating was as bad as the Bills decisions and they way they played. They deserved that loss. The team should have been in London on Tuesday. The defense was not too bad considering but Dorsey and the offense were a joke. There are plays that can be called with a heavy passrush, and Buffalo forgot what they were. This team is good, playoff good, but not superbowl good. It is what is is. 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

1 minute ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

The holding calls weren't ticky tack. Torrence was holding and they called it. the OPI call was legit as well, you can't seal off a defender down the field like that. 

 

Poyer's roughness is the only one I'll give you that was questionable

 

There were 4 holding penalties on the Bills (torrencex2, dawkins, and mcgovern - which was declined). I'll admit the plays were on the spectrum of plays that could be called for holding. I didn't think any of them were blatant that HAD to be called. Much worse goes un-called in almost every NFL game. 

 

You're making my point on the OPI call. It was such a borderline call the broadcast didn't even know who the penalty was on. The refs called it on Diggs for chipping a defender as he ran by (not on Kincaid for sealing a defender off). 

 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

Just now, SUNY_amherst said:

 

The broadcast sucked though. It was clearly OPI, just because the camera man didn't get a great view and the commentators struggled with their commenting doesn't change the fact that it actually occurred on the field. 

 

You're going to say it's clearly OPI when you didn't even know which player committed the penalty ? 

 

I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

There's no question Diggs contacted the defender as he went by. The contact was minimal though, and Diggs is allowed to run his route. 99 times out of 100 the refs would leave that as no penalty. 

[starrymessenger]

30 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

I loved the one where they made the Bills score a TD twice for it to count because of phantom OPI . That was great…. Interestingly KC got another extremely beneficial call late Vs MIN when a PI flag in the end zone was picked up due to the ball being tipped. Replay showed it was not tipped , but the Vikes were out of timeouts. It seemingly never ends with KC. 

I wasn't clear why the flag was picked up and another poster said the pass was ruled uncatchable (clearly there was no tip). Begs the question why it's not PI or holding when the defender with his back to the ball blocks the receiver out from going to the ball. And why did the ref tell the defender to put his hat back on instead of penalizing him. On a crucial 3rd conversion the KC receiver appeared to have both feet off the ground and out of bounds after the catch (not just one foot). It was upheld as a catch even after review. And when a Vikings defender stole the ball from Kelsey as it was still moving in his hands as he hit the ground it was ruled a catch.

Glad I'm not a Vikings fan this morning.

[LabattBlue]

Has there been the “NFL needs full-time officials” declaration yet?😂

 

It is always easy to critique the officials with 800 camera angles, and super duper slo mo.  
 

That being said, the official who told Snead to put his helmet back on instead of flagging him, is probably going to get a talking to this week. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

56 minutes ago, BillsFan692 said:

I never like the tale of the tape for Ref calls... just saying jags had 8 for 56 and 10 for 80 (Removing one of the bills flags was DPI for 40 yards) make it seem like overall it wasn't that out of wack, however its WHEN the calls get made that has the most impact. At least THREE times the Jags drives were saved/extended by a wild 3rd and long penalty where our defense had held them. I mean I am pretty sure at least 2 of those drives ended in points for the jags, one a touchdown.

They ALWAYs get calls though and even more this season.... doesn't seem like there are too many games where I feel like the bills are getting a great benefit from officiating yet there are numerous games where it seems to affect outcomes positively for KC.

Exactly. The TIMING of the calls. Every time the offense got going or the D made a big stop it was FLAG FLAG FLAG until the game was clearly out of reach. And like another poster mentioned, Bills had no pre snap penalties either and that makes it even more crazy. I feel like this game might’ve been winnable if u take back a handful of those ticky tack penalties. Josh could’ve pulled a TD out of his *** at any of those points. More drives = more chance to score. The refs took away possessions from us. 

[Boatdrinks]

18 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

I wasn't clear why the flag was picked up and another poster said the pass was ruled uncatchable (clearly there was no tip). Begs the question why it's not PI or holding when the defender with his back to the ball blocks the receiver out from going to the ball. And why did the ref tell the defender to put his hat back on instead of penalizing him. On a crucial 3rd conversion the KC receiver appeared to have both feet off the ground and out of bounds after the catch (not just one foot). It was upheld as a catch even after review. And when a Vikings defender stole the ball from Kelsey as it was still moving in his hands as he hit the ground it was ruled a catch.

Glad I'm not a Vikings fan this morning.

The Kelsey catch that was reviewed was clearly a catch as far as I could see and I thought it was an awful decision to review. Picking up the PI flag was inexcusable as the defender never played the ball and prevented the WR from making a play on it. The QBs arm was hit slightly but the ball itself was not tipped . Yes I’d be livid if I were a Minny fan, but the Chiefs are consistently the beneficiary of questionable calls late in close games. 

[DapperCam]

1 hour ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

The holding calls weren't ticky tack. Torrence was holding and they called it. the OPI call was legit as well, you can't seal off a defender down the field like that. 

 

Poyer's roughness is the only one I'll give you that was questionable

They have been calling essentially zero offensive holding on the o-line all year. And then they call Torrence who went his entire college career without a holding penalty twice in one drive? How many times has a guard been called for holding in the entire NFL this year? I would be the number is very low.

 

I’m assuming Torrence made a yo mamma joke against the ref or something, because things aren’t adding up.

[Bob Jones]

55 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

On a crucial 3rd conversion the KC receiver appeared to have both feet off the ground and out of bounds after the catch (not just one foot). It was upheld as a catch even after review. Glad I'm not a Vikings fan this morning.

I've been watching NFL games for a long time, and of course today I watch the games on a big screen 4k HD TV.....My opinion is that he didn’t get ANY feet down on that catch. He was going UP when he made the catch, and when he came down, no foot touched inbounds. Honestly, I was flabbergasted when they called that a catch.

 

Yes, Vikings fans are dealing with the reality this morning of how the NFL refs are nowhere consistent, and nowhere near fair for all teams.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Bob Jones
Splng Corr

[JohnMurphyHamFetish]

No one going to bring up Calvin ridley punching I believe Micah Hyde in front of a ref and no flag thrown? I understand if the refs are calling a tight game to prove whatever point but allowing that punch to just happen in front of their eyes was just sickening.. Ridley should have been tossed after that bs

[gomper]

Every crew gets graded by the league on Tuesday's. I never want to see this crew do a game again, ever. Give them Bears- Giants.  In Anchorage. 

[brianthomas]

BILLS implications aside: these international games are an opportunity for the NFL to showcase the game to new viewers. With that as the goal, i wish the NFL would've communicated to the officials that if its a judgement call, less is best. Not saying dont call obvious penalties, but if something is borderline, for the sake of the game just dont call it. The non stop penalties broke the rhythm for the game & made even diehard football fans cringe. I imagine non-diehard fans felt even worse.

 

Of course if we win the game we dont feel as bad about the penalties. Another aside that ive been saying for awhile: our 2 losses have less to do with the team we're playing (or these officials) & more about ourselves. We're good enough that we can beat both these teams if we just play with confidence & within our capabilities & just dont make critical mistakes. Easier said than done i guess.

[BrainwashedBillsFan]

21 hours ago, Yobogoya! said:

Pretty sure the flags stopped completely once the Bills could no longer mathematically beat the spread.

 

Just sayin… 

💯 agree. These games are fixed, and they are even worse now that gambling is legal. It’s disgusting and extremely obvious when watching yesterday 

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, BrainwashedBillsFan said:

💯 agree. These games are fixed, and they are even worse now that gambling is legal. It’s disgusting and extremely obvious when watching yesterday 

Awesome! 😂😂😂

[folz]

As I said in the post game thread, The Bills didn't lose because of the officiating, but the refs did make it an uphill battle for Buffalo all day.

 

And sometimes it isn't even about the calls that were made, but about a dis-balance in how they are treating the two teams.

The Jags were able to mug, hold, make contact early, but the Bills weren't allowed to do that. Reminded me of the Chiefs/Bills AFC Championship game in 2020. Also, offenses like to get in a flow and rhythm...if you throw a lot of flags it slows a good offense down and breaks their rhythm (beyond just putting them behind the sticks). And how many times did you see the ref standing behind Morse, holding up his hands, not letting Josh snap the ball. A bunch...including on the last couple of possessions as time is literally running off the clock while he is standing there...taking precious seconds off of Buffalo's chance to come back and giving the Jaguars plenty of time to make substitutions and get lined up properly. You could see how frustrated Josh was with that. Yet, the Jaguars ran a hurry-up offense early in the game and I didn't see the ref stand over the ball once, holding up the play. And not getting our timeout back despite a Jaguars player being injured? There are many ways that the refs can influence games without it being obvious or showing up in the final penalty tally.

 

How about the fact that the Bills had to call out the Jaguars false starts to the refs. Four times the Bills did that (the refs called three of them). Yes, I know that players always point out false starts to the refs, but the refs seemed really slow in pulling out their flags on some of those until the Bills players started going crazy. Seemed like they wanted to not make the call, but the Bills players made it so obvious they had to call them. 

 

The five penalties against the Jags were those 3 false starts, an illegal down field pass, and the roughing the QB. Are you telling me that in the entire game the Jags never held anyone, got there early on a receiver, or committed any other in-play infractions other than the roughing the passer?

 

One of the most egregious no-calls was on the play that Taron got injured. He is rushing the QB, and as he is in Trevor's face, a Jags player basically tackles him from behind and causing Taron's knee to hyper-extend on landing. That has to be a hold or a block in the back or something (I'd call it a personal foul)...and that was right in front of the ref. But no call.

 

I don't think all of the calls that they did make were b.s. I didn't see a closer view of the hands to the face called on Oliver, but from the long angle, I did see the offensive lineman's head go back like there probably was hands to the face (unless he was acting), some personal fouls (the one on Poyer and the roughing the QB on the Jags) weren't surprising even if they were iffy---they've been calling that stuff close for a while (there is at least a consistency there).

 

I won't go through every call (good call or bad call), but if you couldn't see a bias against one team, I give you the punt return at 9:43 in the 3rd quarter. It is still only a 4-point game (11 to 7). Four flags were thrown! They made two calls, accepting the personal foul on Tyler M. The first call they made was "Illegal block above the waist" against Sherfield. What the hell kind of call is that? I've never even heard that call before. The player was not engaged with anyone else and Trent pushed him in the front of his shoulder as they are running side-by-side. It wasn't in the back or a blindside. One ref threw a flag for that. And then 3 refs threw a flag on Tyler, when it was just a damn good block. He was totally in front of the other player and just laid him on his ass. That is a good block, not a foul. It was a bogus call and yet three refs made that same bogus call?

 

Seriously, how often do you ever see 4 flags thrown on one play. It usually doesn't happen because the refs all have different assignments on what they are looking at/for. Sure seems like a flag was going to come out on that play one way or the other to give the Bills bad field position to start their drive (uphill battle).

 

Look, I do not think the league season or individual games are scripted. That would be really, really hard to pull off and maintain. I also do not think that games are predetermined (they know who will win before it happens or absolutely make sure that one team wins---they still want to keep the image of an unbiased, competitive sport). But, I do think with some teams and games (particularly in the playoffs) they do have a preference on how they would like it to go for financial reasons (story lines, star players, marketing, business/partner deals, etc.) and they are not shy to have their refs give teams a leg up. They won't out and out rig the game, but just make it a little easier on one team and a little harder on the other. If a team is good enough, they can often still overcome this...but the Bills were a little too flat on Sunday (travel/time change/injuries) to get it done. But you can at least guess why the NFL would want a Jags win in this one (build up the Jags and the London games in the hopes of more expansion in Europe and beyond).

 

I just wish the NFL would call all games, all players, and all teams consistently and let stars and storylines emerge organically, rather than trying to manufacture and control narratives. When it comes to the refs, you can only chalk up so much to mistakes, incompetency, the speed of the game before you start to realize that there is much more to the story than that.

[LABILLBACKER]

23 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

The Bills were completely out of their element today and their whole entire roster was decimated w/ injuries including their top 3 CBs on several series. Josh played like crap, but had zero run game to help him out. McD was completely outclassed by a SB winning coach. With that being said…

 

What the hell was that? Bills had 11 flags for 109 yards (Jags 8/56) thrown and seemingly every single time the offense began clicking. Just one after the other like clockwork. I know it’s low hanging fruit to pick on the refs, but today was as bad of an officiated game as I’ve ever seen. 

That game wasn't just poorly officiated but "overly- officiated".  There were several plays that could easily have been ignored.  The sheer volume of flags made the flow unwatchable.  Poyers hit was borderline.  A couple holding calls on us was sketchy.  Even a couple calls against the Jags could've been ignored. Maybe Goodell wanted the flags to be like yellow cards to appease the crowd?  

[pennstate10]

3 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

I wasn't clear why the flag was picked up and another poster said the pass was ruled uncatchable (clearly there was no tip). Begs the question why it's not PI or holding when the defender with his back to the ball blocks the receiver out from going to the ball. And why did the ref tell the defender to put his hat back on instead of penalizing him. On a crucial 3rd conversion the KC receiver appeared to have both feet off the ground and out of bounds after the catch (not just one foot). It was upheld as a catch even after review. And when a Vikings defender stole the ball from Kelsey as it was still moving in his hands as he hit the ground it was ruled a catch.

Glad I'm not a Vikings fan this morning.

Problem with that theory is that the referee announced no flag because the ball was tipped. 
Vikings got hosed. 

[starrymessenger]

30 minutes ago, pennstate10 said:

Problem with that theory is that the referee announced no flag because the ball was tipped. 
Vikings got hosed. 

They got hosed either way. I missed the call, or at least the reason for picking up the flag. Another poster said it was ruled uncatchable. You may have the better argument tho because I do distinctly remember Pat signaling to the refs the tipped ball gesture. I guess what daddy wants...

[1ManRaid]

On 10/9/2023 at 12:17 AM, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I don’t even think there was much complaining about that because they were pretty much in fg range regardless 

 

That's the popular misconception.  With the penalty, would have been 60 yards, hardly a chipshot.  Anything could have happened from that point including TFLs or even a sack/fumble.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

That's the popular misconception.  With the penalty, would have been 60 yards, hardly a chipshot.  Anything could have happened from that point including TFLs or even a sack/fumble.

I guess I’m not being clear enough haha the refs may have impacted the ending of the game for sure but the initial reaction was to flame the team and I didn’t really see many goin after the refs. it just felt like a total crap fest blowing a first half lead against the Zach Wilson jets.  Really shouldn’t have been in that position in the first place 

 

the jags game definitely felt different…any time we got a big stop on defense or moved the chains on offense the flags flew in.  Jets game it was one call at the end of the game that maybe/maybe not would’ve changed the outcome 
 

 

[2003Contenders]

While I agree that there were plenty of other reasons why the Bills lost on Sunday -- officiating absolutely played a role.

 

To me the worst was the "completed pass" that McD challenged. Even the Jags knew it was incomplete and tried to hustle to the line of scrimmage to get another play off before the challenge flag came out. That ball CLEARLY came out as the defender was rolling around on the ground and prior to a "football move".

 

Inexplicably the challenge failed and it was deemed a catch. Even the NFL Network's rules guru had a a hard time explaining why the call was upheld -- just something about the receiver being touched down which effectively ended the play prior to he ball popping out. Even Kurt Warner thought that was BS.

 

That call by the refs (and apparently New York) provided the Jags with yet another 3rd down conversion AND cost the Bills a much needed timeout. It may have seemed like no big deal -- but it definitely played a role in the outcome of the game.

 

Same with the OPI call that negated a TD. It is easy to say that did not matter because the Bills answered back with a TD on the very next play. But the requirement of another play took about 10 seconds off the clock. That would have been pretty valuable at the end of the game, right?

[Nitro]

Every season there is one crew that is bad.  This crew was brutal.  It starts with the head ref.  He sets the tone for the crew.   They throw many marginal flags but miss blatant fouls.  They were bad for both teams.  Better to let the guys play than to be flag happy which they are.  

[Paup 1995MVP]

23 hours ago, folz said:

As I said in the post game thread, The Bills didn't lose because of the officiating, but the refs did make it an uphill battle for Buffalo all day.

 

And sometimes it isn't even about the calls that were made, but about a dis-balance in how they are treating the two teams.

The Jags were able to mug, hold, make contact early, but the Bills weren't allowed to do that. Reminded me of the Chiefs/Bills AFC Championship game in 2020. Also, offenses like to get in a flow and rhythm...if you throw a lot of flags it slows a good offense down and breaks their rhythm (beyond just putting them behind the sticks). And how many times did you see the ref standing behind Morse, holding up his hands, not letting Josh snap the ball. A bunch...including on the last couple of possessions as time is literally running off the clock while he is standing there...taking precious seconds off of Buffalo's chance to come back and giving the Jaguars plenty of time to make substitutions and get lined up properly. You could see how frustrated Josh was with that. Yet, the Jaguars ran a hurry-up offense early in the game and I didn't see the ref stand over the ball once, holding up the play. And not getting our timeout back despite a Jaguars player being injured? There are many ways that the refs can influence games without it being obvious or showing up in the final penalty tally.

 

How about the fact that the Bills had to call out the Jaguars false starts to the refs. Four times the Bills did that (the refs called three of them). Yes, I know that players always point out false starts to the refs, but the refs seemed really slow in pulling out their flags on some of those until the Bills players started going crazy. Seemed like they wanted to not make the call, but the Bills players made it so obvious they had to call them. 

 

The five penalties against the Jags were those 3 false starts, an illegal down field pass, and the roughing the QB. Are you telling me that in the entire game the Jags never held anyone, got there early on a receiver, or committed any other in-play infractions other than the roughing the passer?

 

One of the most egregious no-calls was on the play that Taron got injured. He is rushing the QB, and as he is in Trevor's face, a Jags player basically tackles him from behind and causing Taron's knee to hyper-extend on landing. That has to be a hold or a block in the back or something (I'd call it a personal foul)...and that was right in front of the ref. But no call.

 

I don't think all of the calls that they did make were b.s. I didn't see a closer view of the hands to the face called on Oliver, but from the long angle, I did see the offensive lineman's head go back like there probably was hands to the face (unless he was acting), some personal fouls (the one on Poyer and the roughing the QB on the Jags) weren't surprising even if they were iffy---they've been calling that stuff close for a while (there is at least a consistency there).

 

I won't go through every call (good call or bad call), but if you couldn't see a bias against one team, I give you the punt return at 9:43 in the 3rd quarter. It is still only a 4-point game (11 to 7). Four flags were thrown! They made two calls, accepting the personal foul on Tyler M. The first call they made was "Illegal block above the waist" against Sherfield. What the hell kind of call is that? I've never even heard that call before. The player was not engaged with anyone else and Trent pushed him in the front of his shoulder as they are running side-by-side. It wasn't in the back or a blindside. One ref threw a flag for that. And then 3 refs threw a flag on Tyler, when it was just a damn good block. He was totally in front of the other player and just laid him on his ass. That is a good block, not a foul. It was a bogus call and yet three refs made that same bogus call?

 

Seriously, how often do you ever see 4 flags thrown on one play. It usually doesn't happen because the refs all have different assignments on what they are looking at/for. Sure seems like a flag was going to come out on that play one way or the other to give the Bills bad field position to start their drive (uphill battle).

 

Look, I do not think the league season or individual games are scripted. That would be really, really hard to pull off and maintain. I also do not think that games are predetermined (they know who will win before it happens or absolutely make sure that one team wins---they still want to keep the image of an unbiased, competitive sport). But, I do think with some teams and games (particularly in the playoffs) they do have a preference on how they would like it to go for financial reasons (story lines, star players, marketing, business/partner deals, etc.) and they are not shy to have their refs give teams a leg up. They won't out and out rig the game, but just make it a little easier on one team and a little harder on the other. If a team is good enough, they can often still overcome this...but the Bills were a little too flat on Sunday (travel/time change/injuries) to get it done. But you can at least guess why the NFL would want a Jags win in this one (build up the Jags and the London games in the hopes of more expansion in Europe and beyond).

 

I just wish the NFL would call all games, all players, and all teams consistently and let stars and storylines emerge organically, rather than trying to manufacture and control narratives. When it comes to the refs, you can only chalk up so much to mistakes, incompetency, the speed of the game before you start to realize that there is much more to the story than that.

That's a great analysis of the refereeing in the game.  I thought the roughing against Josh when we were driving was a weak call against the Jags.  But I also thought the call against Poyer was weak.  Lighting up a WR used to be a big part of the game.  Unless you lead with your helmet into his face, I think its a fair play.  I did not think it was egregious contact.  The PI on Taron Johnson down the sideline was crap too.  He did not impede the receiver from making a play on the ball.  The ball was underthrown.  Referee Sean Smith is lousy.  His crew always calls a lot of penalties.  And there is usually a lot of confusion when he refs a game.  I don't like the guy.  The game was way over officiated.  We just got nothing call wise in the game.  What about losing the challenge on the pass over the middle that was called complete?  Guy went to the ground and lost the ball.  How was that ruled a catch?  (I was in a bar in Detroit watching the game and the sound on the TV was not loud.  And there were a lot of Lions' fans pregaming.)

 

Way too many illegal hands to the face and illegal man downfield penalties being called in general this year.  Let these guys play unless the penalty is egregious.  Its big and fast men playing a physical game.  Let them have at it.  The refereeing on the whole is pretty lousy in how games overall are officiated in today's NFL.  

[billsintaiwan]

Why the NFL thinks 19 penalties is what fans want to see is beyond me. 

 

The bills losing sucked, but it was just a terrible game to watch.

[RichRiderBills]

4 hours ago, 2003Contenders said:

While I agree that there were plenty of other reasons why the Bills lost on Sunday -- officiating absolutely played a role.

 

To me the worst was the "completed pass" that McD challenged. Even the Jags knew it was incomplete and tried to hustle to the line of scrimmage to get another play off before the challenge flag came out. That ball CLEARLY came out as the defender was rolling around on the ground and prior to a "football move".

 

Inexplicably the challenge failed and it was deemed a catch. Even the NFL Network's rules guru had a a hard time explaining why the call was upheld -- just something about the receiver being touched down which effectively ended the play prior to he ball popping out. Even Kurt Warner thought that was BS.

 

That call by the refs (and apparently New York) provided the Jags with yet another 3rd down conversion AND cost the Bills a much needed timeout. It may have seemed like no big deal -- but it definitely played a role in the outcome of the game.

 

Same with the OPI call that negated a TD. It is easy to say that did not matter because the Bills answered back with a TD on the very next play. But the requirement of another play took about 10 seconds off the clock. That would have been pretty valuable at the end of the game, right?

 

 

They talked about that yesterday on OBL Chris and Steve were basically Homers....said they understood the call ..did not compute. 

 

The threshold for that play , the standard for possession was clearly not met. 

 

Consistently you have to have that in the hands or bread basket a significant time longer to imply possession. That or the "football move" a clear overt act, a roll over, a juke , a tuck away. None of this was met. Not even close. The ball did not even stop or settle on his hands. 

 

The ball was instantly knocked and stripped....it did not meet the norm and standard for that play. 

 

This is why even the apologist TV ref was like "that's a new one for me".

 

BTW, the ground can't cause a fumble but it sure as heck can cause an incompletion. 

 

It was a terrible, terrible call, and Steve/ Brownie being so ho hum about that call was frustrating.