Oh no, poor billionaires losing money.

[PBF81]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

The bolded part has been endlessly repeated by a certain type of individual--and routinely defeated in court.  the 16th Amendment allows for the federal government to levy personal income taxes.  It is illegal to not pay these.  Likewise, Article 22 of the NYS Tax Law regards personal income tax.   Willfully choosing not to pay them can result in jail time.

 

That's completely untrue.  People have in fact won in court and if you want to try you can win too.  But as they say, "justice" is expensive, and they'll run you into 100s of thousands in gettting it, not to mention the time, stress, chances of a procedural (not factual) miscue, etc.  

 

But it has not been routinely defeated in court.  Also, there are IRS people on record agreeing that there are no laws requiring anyone to pay personal income tax.  

 

Again, if there are, you're free to find it and post it.  You'd be the first.   

 

I wasn't talking about NYS law, I'm talking about the federal basis for it, upon which any state laws are to one or more extents prediicated.  

 

Either way, we're off on a tangent.  But to take money from someone that may not care whether or not a stadium even exists, or from fans such as myself and others here that enjoy a team but also realize that it's a business and as such the business owners should pay for their own business expenses, just like the rest of us that own businesses, is a form of theft because it gets taken without their permission for that use.  

 

What I always find amusing is that the owners and everyone else treat it as a business when it's convenient, but seem to forget about the business aspect of it if it's not.  

 

Stadium expenses, either direct or "merely" the financing of them, which can cost more over time than the stadium itself, are a business expense and should be attributed to the business, not the taxpayers.  I know of few businesses that have the perks of being able to have other taxpayers pay for their lease, rent, commerical mortgage, etc.  

 

We can sugarcoat it and call it whatever we want, but anytime that something is taken from people, and hypocritically and inconsistently applied in terms of payouts, then it's a form of theft.  

 

Much as if NYS gave money to someone that wanted to build the world's tallest office building in Central NY, and got tax money to do it.  I doubt that you (if it were your tax money) wouldn't agree that it was akin to theft.  

 

Simply because owners like Pegula hold the fans of a region over a barrel doesn't alter the reality.  

 

Otherwise, let everyone in the state that owns a business, "benefits the community," "brings in tax money," etc. be able to apply to have their fellow taxpayers cover their commercial mortgage financing too.  That wouldn't go over very well if applied universally.  Yet ... 

 

 

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The model of internal operations within the league isn't capitalism. I agree with that. But on the exemptions.... market capitalism as a system is built on loopholes for the powerful so that they never fail. 

 

"Too Big to Fail" was a prime example of that 15 years ago. 

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

28 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's completely untrue.  People have in fact won in court and if you want to try you can win too.  But as they say, "justice" is expensive, and they'll run you into 100s of thousands in gettting it, not to mention the time, stress, chances of a procedural (not factual) miscue, etc.  

 

But it has not been routinely defeated in court.  Also, there are IRS people on record agreeing that there are no laws requiring anyone to pay personal income tax.  

 

Again, if there are, you're free to find it and post it.  You'd be the first.   

 

I wasn't talking about NYS law, I'm talking about the federal basis for it, upon which any state laws are to one or more extents prediicated.  

 

Either way, we're off on a tangent.  But to take money from someone that may not care whether or not a stadium even exists, or from fans such as myself and others here that enjoy a team but also realize that it's a business and as such the business owners should pay for their own business expenses, just like the rest of us that own businesses, is a form of theft because it gets taken without their permission for that use.  

 

What I always find amusing is that the owners and everyone else treat it as a business when it's convenient, but seem to forget about the business aspect of it if it's not.  

 

Stadium expenses, either direct or "merely" the financing of them, which can cost more over time than the stadium itself, are a business expense and should be attributed to the business, not the taxpayers.  I know of few businesses that have the perks of being able to have other taxpayers pay for their lease, rent, commerical mortgage, etc.  

 

We can sugarcoat it and call it whatever we want, but anytime that something is taken from people, and hypocritically and inconsistently applied in terms of payouts, then it's a form of theft.  

 

Much as if NYS gave money to someone that wanted to build the world's tallest office building in Central NY, and got tax money to do it.  I doubt that you (if it were your tax money) wouldn't agree that it was akin to theft.  

 

Simply because owners like Pegula hold the fans of a region over a barrel doesn't alter the reality.  

 

Otherwise, let everyone in the state that owns a business, "benefits the community," "brings in tax money," etc. be able to apply to have their fellow taxpayers cover their commercial mortgage financing too.  That wouldn't go over very well if applied universally.  Yet ... 

 

 

 

"Too Big to Fail" was a prime example of that 15 years ago. 

 

 

 

My thoughts about spending tax money on pro sports stadiums are well known here.  However....

 

Your arguments collapse under mass of their logic-free filling.

 

If there was a simple, cogent defense for not paying federal taxes, it would not cost "100's of thousands" as it would simply follow precedent for such.   Likewise, the richest individuals would gladly pay "100's of thousands" to forever avoid paying millions in personal income tax.  Yet they don't.

 

“The courts have consistently rejected these arguments and imposed substantial penalties on those taking these unsupportable positions,” said IRS Chief Counsel Donald L. Korb. “Those potentially tempted by these schemes need to realize that they carry a heavy price for both the taxpayers and the promoters.” The IRS continues to investigate promoters of frivolous arguments and to refer cases to the Department of Justice for criminal prosecution. In addition to tax and interest, taxpayers who file frivolous income tax returns face a $500 penalty, and may be subject to civil penalties of 20 or 75 percent of the underpaid tax. Those who pursue frivolous tax cases in the courts may face an additional penalty of up to $25,000.

 

Find your arguments vacated here:  https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/friv_tax.pdf

 

Also, you can't argue that levying  taxes not based in law--thus paying them is voluntary--and at the same time claim that the state committed "theft" by spending the money you voluntarily gave them do whatever they chose to do as elected officials. 

 

 

[T&C]

Why is a beer $12-14 at an NFL game? Or a concert... 

[MPT]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again though, it is supply and demand. If the NFL charged foreigners the same price it charges you guys fewer would buy. It's the old political joke about how the Treasury sets taxes..... it doesn't work out how much it needs to pay for services and then work out the tax rate from that. It works out how much it can get away with charging and then decides what to spend it on .

 

In the US the NFL has worked out it can get away with charging a lot before customers pull the plug. 

 

I don't approve of it, but that is market capitalism for you. They have a product that has a big market and there is quite a lot of price elasticity before people turn off..... and a lack of regulation to stop them exploiting it. 

 

 

 

Supply and demand is for the poors. 

 

If people aren't paying the exorbitant prices for NFL games on TV, suddenly it's "theft" and not supply and demand. 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

Supply and demand is for the poors. 

 

If people aren't paying the exorbitant prices for NFL games on TV, suddenly it's "theft" and not supply and demand. 

 

Again I don't agree with it. I am the opposite of a free marketeer. I'd regulate the ***** out of sports broadcasting.

[Mr. WEO]

36 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

Supply and demand is for the poors. 

 

If people aren't paying the exorbitant prices for NFL games on TV, suddenly it's "theft" and not supply and demand. 

im not paying exorbitant prices.  I have had spectrum for years, also Prime before NFL went there.  I get to watch NFL 3 nights a week, multiple games on Sunday.
 

If the NFL didn’t exist, I wouldn’t save a dime with my viewing habits

[benderbender]

36 minutes ago, T&C said:

Why is a beer $12-14 at an NFL game? Or a concert... 

For supposedly smart people, they're surprisingly ignorant or willfully ignoring the prime example of the Falcons lowering concession prices and enjoying more profits. The volume of people purchasing went up 50% more than making up the difference. People spent time they would otherwise be sitting in their seat pregame/halftime/postgame at concessions or using their leftover food budget on souvenirs. They even had more sales of food AFTER the game. No one is hitting up the in-stadium Nova for a $15 slice to enjoy on the way home. 

[Augie]

18 minutes ago, benderbender said:

For supposedly smart people, they're surprisingly ignorant or willfully ignoring the prime example of the Falcons lowering concession prices and enjoying more profits. The volume of people purchasing went up 50% more than making up the difference. People spent time they would otherwise be sitting in their seat pregame/halftime/postgame at concessions or using their leftover food budget on souvenirs. They even had more sales of food AFTER the game. No one is hitting up the in-stadium Nova for a $15 slice to enjoy on the way home. 

 

I was excited about the cheap concessions at Mercedes Benz Stadium……until I went three different times to get something and gave up because the lines were so long I’d miss the game completely. That article was from 2018 and my experience was around then (when did the Bills play there?). Hopefully they have worked out the kinks.

 

I have been back there, but only for MLS in a club. Oh my! They do THAT right!!! 

[GoBills808]

25 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I was excited about the cheap concessions at Mercedes Benz Stadium……until I went three different times to get something and gave up because the lines were so long I’d miss the game completely. That article was from 2018 and my experience was around then (when did the Bills play there?). Hopefully they have worked out the kinks.

 

I have been back there, but only for MLS in a club. Oh my! They do THAT right!!! 

I've been to a couple MLS games and definitely agree, great atmosphere and value every time

[Augie]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I've been to a couple MLS games and definitely agree, great atmosphere and value every time

 

I forget which club we would go to, but it was more than hot dogs and beer. They had that stuff, along with the full open bar and the carving stations. All VERY easy to have access to. The players literally ran thru the club to get out to the field. It’s a great experience. 

 

I can’t speak to value as the daughter-in-law had access to passes thru work, but I’d pay a pretty penny for that! 

 

 

.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Augie

[Bob Jones]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:34 PM, WotAGuy said:

When we were kids, we used to ride our bikes down the road behind the drive-in and watch the movies for free. Sue me. 

Same here. Saw Russ Meyer's Supervixens that way in the late 70s in Angola. Good times....LOL.

[WotAGuy]

12 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Same here. Saw Russ Meyer's Supervixens that way in the late 70s in Angola. Good times....LOL.

Russ Meyer was every adolescent boy’s hero. 

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

My thoughts about spending tax money on pro sports stadiums are well known here.  However....

 

Your arguments collapse under mass of their logic-free filling.

 

If there was a simple, cogent defense for not paying federal taxes, it would not cost "100's of thousands" as it would simply follow precedent for such.   Likewise, the richest individuals would gladly pay "100's of thousands" to forever avoid paying millions in personal income tax.  Yet they don't.

 

“The courts have consistently rejected these arguments and imposed substantial penalties on those taking these unsupportable positions,” said IRS Chief Counsel Donald L. Korb. “Those potentially tempted by these schemes need to realize that they carry a heavy price for both the taxpayers and the promoters.” The IRS continues to investigate promoters of frivolous arguments and to refer cases to the Department of Justice for criminal prosecution. In addition to tax and interest, taxpayers who file frivolous income tax returns face a $500 penalty, and may be subject to civil penalties of 20 or 75 percent of the underpaid tax. Those who pursue frivolous tax cases in the courts may face an additional penalty of up to $25,000.

 

Find your arguments vacated here:  https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/friv_tax.pdf

 

Also, you can't argue that levying  taxes not based in law--thus paying them is voluntary--and at the same time claim that the state committed "theft" by spending the money you voluntarily gave them do whatever they chose to do as elected officials. 

 

 

 

How 'bout this, post the law that states that individuals are by law obligated to pay personal income taxes.  

 

That's a lot easier.  

 

It's also what I pointed out originally.  

 

The IRS people can't do it, nor does anyone else from the government.  I'm eagerly awaiting you doing it.  

 

I've got quite a few people that will be interested in that info once you provide it, since you're so confident it exists.  

 

And "what the government does," one of the most corrupt institutions in history?  Really?  
 

In fact, I'm pretty sure that at least one prominent source has offered money to anyone providing that law.  If you find it, if I can find them, I'll split it with you.  

 

Looking forward to what you come up with.  

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by PBF81

[Augie]

Oh my! Where is the Church Lady when you need her most? 

[HardyBoy]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The model of internal operations within the league isn't capitalism. I agree with that. But on the exemptions.... market capitalism as a system is built on loopholes for the powerful so that they never fail. 

 

Like I said, we agree

[Cheektowaga Chad]

The NFL doing it wrong by going after illegal streams 

 

They should be trying to obtain the info and amount of viewers these streams provide and use it to increase the amount they charge advertisers on those annoying in game multiple screen ads 

[uticaclub]

So you are greedy now for not wanting to give your product away for free? 

[Billsatlastin2018]

First 0.1% World problems! 

[T&C]

13 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

The NFL doing it wrong by going after illegal streams 

 

They should be trying to obtain the info and amount of viewers these streams provide and use it to increase the amount they charge advertisers on those annoying in game multiple screen ads 

There are no ads if you have your ABP (ad blocker pro) turned on... or a similar ad blocker. It's a must for all internet surfing in general.

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

How 'bout this, post the law that states that individuals are by law obligated to pay personal income taxes.  

 

That's a lot easier.  

 

It's also what I pointed out originally.  

 

The IRS people can't do it, nor does anyone else from the government.  I'm eagerly awaiting you doing it.  

 

I've got quite a few people that will be interested in that info once you provide it, since you're so confident it exists.  

 

And "what the government does," one of the most corrupt institutions in history?  Really?  
 

In fact, I'm pretty sure that at least one prominent source has offered money to anyone providing that law.  If you find it, if I can find them, I'll split it with you.  

 

Looking forward to what you come up with.  

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you are serious or if you've painted yourself into a corner and are looking for a clever way out.

 

Anyway:  The Sixteenth Amendment (Amendment XVI) to the United States Constitution allows Congress to levy an income tax without apportioning it among the states on the basis of population.  The Revenue Act of 1913 reestablished a Federal Income Tax as the law of the land.

 

The United States Code is a consolidation and codification by subject matter of the general and permanent laws of the United States.   Title 26 of the US Code is the Internal Revenue Code.  Within it, Subtitle F, Chapter 75, Subchapter A (Crimes), Part 1, Sections 7201-3 lay out what the penalties are for not paying income taxes as required by law.  

 

Now that that is out of the way....why do you pay taxes if you feel you have a solid legal argument to avoid paying them?

[RiotAct]

19 hours ago, T&C said:

Why is a beer $12-14 at an NFL game? Or a concert... 

hell, a 24 oz. can of Molson was $15 at the Raiders game last week.

[PBF81]

21 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I'm not sure if you are serious or if you've painted yourself into a corner and are looking for a clever way out.

 

Anyway:  The Sixteenth Amendment (Amendment XVI) to the United States Constitution allows Congress to levy an income tax without apportioning it among the states on the basis of population.  The Revenue Act of 1913 reestablished a Federal Income Tax as the law of the land.

 

The United States Code is a consolidation and codification by subject matter of the general and permanent laws of the United States.   Title 26 of the US Code is the Internal Revenue Code.  Within it, Subtitle F, Chapter 75, Subchapter A (Crimes), Part 1, Sections 7201-3 lay out what the penalties are for not paying income taxes as required by law.  

 

Now that that is out of the way....why do you pay taxes if you feel you have a solid legal argument to avoid paying them?

 

That's the most superficial argument that exists.  

 

I'm not sure that this is the place for this discussion, and it's gotten away from our differences over the semantics of and loose connotations of "theft" as it applies in the original context of the general discussion.

 

But if you really want to go down this rabbit hole, and I'm more than happy to as I do it semi-regularly, we can start up in the appropriate forum.  Or via PM.  To start, the 16th was never ratified.  

 

It's also difficult to avoid discussion of the Federal Reserve when discussing this.  The vast majority have no clue that t the Federal Reserve is neither federal (it's a privately held corporation, largely owned by foreign interests) or a reserve of anything.  So why does it control our economy and national monetary policies instead of Congress.  (rhetorical) 

 

But make no mistake, the two are related.  

 

There's a reason why the Fed was created covertly within 48 hours of Christmas Day after Congress had adjourned for the holiday.  There's a reason why Wilson, from academia, not politics, whose term it was under, famously exclaimed that he had ruined our country by having allowed it.  

 

It also wasn't coincidental that the three most influential men that opposed it were in the Titanic on it's ill-fated voyage.  

 

If your truly interested in this, I would first recommend a book, but at least a great summary documentary video that's about 90 minutes or so.  

 

It makes no sense to take this up without the relevant background.  Let me know.  

 

 

[Augie]

13 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's the most superficial argument that exists.  

 

I'm not sure that this is the place for this discussion, and it's gotten away from our differences over the semantics of and loose connotations of "theft" as it applies in the original context of the general discussion.

 

But if you really want to go down this rabbit hole, and I'm more than happy to as I do it semi-regularly, we can start up in the appropriate forum.  Or via PM.  To start, the 16th was never ratified.  

 

It's also difficult to avoid discussion of the Federal Reserve when discussing this.  The vast majority have no clue that t the Federal Reserve is neither federal (it's a privately held corporation, largely owned by foreign interests) or a reserve of anything.  So why does it control our economy and national monetary policies instead of Congress.  (rhetorical) 

 

But make no mistake, the two are related.  

 

There's a reason why the Fed was created covertly within 48 hours of Christmas Day after Congress had adjourned for the holiday.  There's a reason why Wilson, from academia, not politics, whose term it was under, famously exclaimed that he had ruined our country by having allowed it.  

 

It also wasn't coincidental that the three most influential men that opposed it were in the Titanic on it's ill-fated voyage.  

 

If your truly interested in this, I would first recommend a book, but at least a great summary documentary video that's about 90 minutes or so.  

 

It makes no sense to take this up without the relevant background.  Let me know.  

 

 

 

Forget the smoke and mirrors.

 

Do you pay taxes? 

 

If so, why? 

 

 

[Beach]

im in the commander tv area, i will be legal today

[WhoTom]

37 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

To start, the 16th was never ratified.  

 

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/16th-amendment

Quote

Passed by Congress on July 2, 1909, and ratified February 3, 1913, the 16th amendment established Congress's right to impose a Federal income tax.

 

[PBF81]

30 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Forget the smoke and mirrors.

 

Do you pay taxes? 

 

If so, why? 

 

 

 

Beyond the original context of the discussion and not for this forum.  

 

 

7 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/16th-amendment

 

 

OK 

 

  

 

 

[Augie]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Beyond the original context of the discussion and not for this forum.  

 

 

 

 

No, YOU took it there. 

 

Do you pay taxes? Why? 

[WhoTom]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

No, YOU took it there. 

 

Do you pay taxes? Why? 

 

Because he can't find a lawyer who's willing to argue that the 16th Amendment wasn't ratified. 😉

 

 

[PBF81]

10 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

Because he can't find a lawyer who's willing to argue that the 16th Amendment wasn't ratified. 😉

 

That's largely correct.  

 

I've already also answered that question.  Perhaps go back and read the entire context, and it'll come to you.  

 

There are a lot of things that our government, those that control it, and its agents do that are illegal, but the heavy hand of tyranny doesn't care about laws, does it.  

 

  

 

Either way, as I've said, this is a football forum, not a tax/political forum.  I have difficulty polluting it as such.  Feel free to take on the things that I posed to WEO via PM.  I'm more than happy to engage you there.  

 

GO BILLS!!!  

 

 

[bklnpete]

On 9/1/2023 at 5:02 PM, LabattBlue said:

How many games are on peacock throughout the season homie?

Sunday ticket has always been $$$.  Do you really expect to get that for free?

Sticking up for billionaires. Have another Labatt's homie. 

[Neo]

I’m with the Original Poster.   We should be able to steal from the rich.   Oh, and the wealthy.  Affluent, too.  Don’t forget the comfortable, the satisfied, the successful.   The resourceful, the lucky, the hard working … the smart, the frugal …  hell, everyone with more than me!

Edited September 24, 2023 by Neo

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's the most superficial argument that exists.  

 

I'm not sure that this is the place for this discussion, and it's gotten away from our differences over the semantics of and loose connotations of "theft" as it applies in the original context of the general discussion.

 

But if you really want to go down this rabbit hole, and I'm more than happy to as I do it semi-regularly, we can start up in the appropriate forum.  Or via PM.  To start, the 16th was never ratified.  

 

It's also difficult to avoid discussion of the Federal Reserve when discussing this.  The vast majority have no clue that t the Federal Reserve is neither federal (it's a privately held corporation, largely owned by foreign interests) or a reserve of anything.  So why does it control our economy and national monetary policies instead of Congress.  (rhetorical) 

 

But make no mistake, the two are related.  

 

There's a reason why the Fed was created covertly within 48 hours of Christmas Day after Congress had adjourned for the holiday.  There's a reason why Wilson, from academia, not politics, whose term it was under, famously exclaimed that he had ruined our country by having allowed it.  

 

It also wasn't coincidental that the three most influential men that opposed it were in the Titanic on it's ill-fated voyage.  

 

If your truly interested in this, I would first recommend a book, but at least a great summary documentary video that's about 90 minutes or so.  

 

It makes no sense to take this up without the relevant background.  Let me know.  

 

 

when is JFK Jr set to arrive in Dealy Plaza?

take the L.  Every argument and question you have asked has been definitively answered.  Your nonratification claim has been debunked everywhere forever—it’s listed as one of the frivolous claims in the IRS link I gave you. Go read it before responding.  You’re in a deep hole.  
 

Im glad you pay your taxes though 

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

when is JFK Jr set to arrive in Dealy Plaza?

take the L.  Every argument and question you have asked has been definitively answered.  Your nonratification claim has been debunked everywhere forever—it’s listed as one of the frivolous claims in the IRS link I gave you. Go read it before responding.  You’re in a deep hole.  
 

Im glad you pay your taxes though 

 

Wrong.  There's a lot of background that you are missing and clearly have no interest in getting.  

 

Either way, happy to continue to discuss if you want to invest the time, but this isn't the place.  

 

  

 

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

when is JFK Jr set to arrive in Dealy Plaza?

take the L.  Every argument and question you have asked has been definitively answered.  Your nonratification claim has been debunked everywhere forever—it’s listed as one of the frivolous claims in the IRS link I gave you. Go read it before responding.  You’re in a deep hole.  
 

Im glad you pay your taxes though 

 

BTW, let's get back to the central discussion topic, we're in the mire here, so I'll put it another way.  

 

When money comes from taxpayers to fund business expenses, aka a stadium in this case, for business owners of private businesses which the people paying have no business interests in, ... 

 

and, when that money comes from those same people that as a majority do not approve or otherwise consent to it, ... 

 

and, when there is no basis of any sort, for taking money from one set of people at large and giving it to individuals for purposes of funding that business owner recipient's private business expenses, ... 

 

then we can argue, I suppose, as to whether or not it's theft, but there is absolutely no argument that from an ethics and moral perspective that it even approaches being right.  

 

There are ramifications re: our discussion up to this point, related to that, but I again, only if you want to take that up offline.  But that was the original core of the argument.  

 

 

[MPT]

22 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

im not paying exorbitant prices.  I have had spectrum for years, also Prime before NFL went there.  I get to watch NFL 3 nights a week, multiple games on Sunday.
 

If the NFL didn’t exist, I wouldn’t save a dime with my viewing habits

 

Okay?

[CircleTheWagons99]

Stream worked great today!

[CodeMonkey]

On 9/1/2023 at 4:50 PM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Think they'll sell a gulfstream or two?

 

I'd love to see the math that added up to nearly $2B a week.

Edited September 24, 2023 by CodeMonkey

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

BTW, let's get back to the central discussion topic, we're in the mire here, so I'll put it another way.  

 

When money comes from taxpayers to fund business expenses, aka a stadium in this case, for business owners of private businesses which the people paying have no business interests in, ... 

 

and, when that money comes from those same people that as a majority do not approve or otherwise consent to it, ... 

 

and, when there is no basis of any sort, for taking money from one set of people at large and giving it to individuals for purposes of funding that business owner recipient's private business expenses, ... 

 

then we can argue, I suppose, as to whether or not it's theft, but there is absolutely no argument that from an ethics and moral perspective that it even approaches being right.  

 

There are ramifications re: our discussion up to this point, related to that, but I again, only if you want to take that up offline.  But that was the original core of the argument.  

 

 

I already said I don’t agree with public funds for sports stadiums.

 

I don’t know who you are arguing with now.

 

your central belief that taxes in general and taxes spent for this purpose is “theft” is wrong because it lacks any logical basis for that conclusion 

 

I’ll leave it at that.  There’s no where else to take this

[Bferra13]

On 9/22/2023 at 7:48 PM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Sure, probably because they've lined my pockets

 

Make no mistake, don't like the politicians any more than I do the crooked billionaires

 

Yeah, I'm just saying it takes two to tango here on this issue. If you were a billionaire, and you knew you had leverage with the community over your team staying or leaving, you would play the game with the local government to get them to pay for it. And even if you didn't want to do that, I'm pretty sure your finance managers would make you try.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, Bferra13 said:

Yeah, I'm just saying it takes two to tango here on this issue. If you were a billionaire, and you knew you had leverage with the community over your team staying or leaving, you would play the game with the local government to get them to pay for it. And even if you didn't want to do that, I'm pretty sure your finance managers would make you try.

Scummy behavior is still scummy even if it's legal