The People v. McBeane (Alternatively, comparing SF to BUF since 2017)

[FireChans]

Topic. Title.

 

I'm gonna put some work in today boys and girls, so strap in.

 

To start: why am I comparing the Niners to the Bills?  Well our regime started in 2017, as did theirs. They have an offensive coach, we have a defensive coach. And neither team has won the big one.  So let's get started.

 

HC/GM records:

 

Shanny/Lynch: 52-46

McBeane: 62-35

 

Losing seasons:

 

Shanny/Lynch: 3

McBeane: 1

 

Playoff records:

 

Shanny/Lynch: 3 playoff appearances, 6-3, 1 SB appearance

McBeane: 5 playoff appearances, 4-5, 0 SB appearance

 

So there you have it. The numbers are pretty interesting. McD has run the steadier ship from a regular season perspective, but when SF makes the playoffs, they go a little deeper. 

 

I started with the results, because this is a results-based game. But let's enter the ultimate hindsight chamber. The DRAFT.

 

2017

 

Shanny/Lynch:

1 player still on the Niners (Kittle, All-Pro talent, 5th rounder)

Reuben Foster (#31) and Solomon Thomas (#3 overall) were tremendous busts

Some guys were fine placeholders and are still floating in the league (Witherspoon, Beathard, Trent Taylor)

 

McBeane:

3 players still on the Bills (Tre White, Pro Bowler, #27. Milano, All-Pro, 5th rounder. Dawkins, fat but an NFL starter, 2nd rounder.

No "busts" in the traditional sense for the Bills outside of Nate Peterman but he was a fifth rounder

ZayDay was mediocre here but has carved out a career.

Tanner Vallejo is a league STer, floating around as above.

 

2017 verdict:  McBeane in a landslide, tbh.

 

Editor's note: it was at this point, I realized I needed to speed this thing up, so the draft results will be briefer. If I do not point out a tremendous bust, it is because I do not believe there was one. I also decided to quit after 2021.

 

2018

 

Niners

Mike McGlinchey (#9, good player, no longer a Niner)

Fred Warner (#70, homerun pick, All-Pro)

 

Bills

Allen (#7, legit the best pick in Bills history)

Edmunds (#16, no longer a Bill, "good" player if you like scarecrows?)

Taron Johnson (#121, good player, starter)

Wyatt Teller (strike against the Bills bc "Cody Ford over me?")

 

2018 verdict: McBeane in a landslide again?  I'm thinking yes.

 

2019

 

Niners

Nick Bosa (homerun, #3)

Deebo (homerun)

Dre Greenlaw (starter, good pick)

 

Bills

Ed Oliver (meh pick but I guess he's fine)

Cody Ford (shoot me)

Devin Singletary (solid)

Dawson Knox (good-great pick)

 

2019 verdict: You just knew Shanny was gonna get this one. Cody Ford and Big Ed just can't compete.

 

2020:

 

Niners:

Kinlaw (kind of a sneaky bust?  #14, played 10 games in 2 years?)

Aiyuk (hit, #25 overall)

 

Bills:

Davis (hit)

Dane Jackson (started a year, so I will call this a hit)

Zack Moss (3rd round RB bust)

Not including STers

 

2020 verdict: I'm tempted to call this a push, Aiyuk is better than Gabe but is he better than Gabe+Dane?

 

2021:

 

Niners

Hufunga (massive hit, All-Pro, #180)

Aaron Banks (hit, starter, IOL)

Lance (gigantic bust?)

Trey Sermon (third round RB bust)

Elijah Mitchell (hit, late RB)

 

Bills

Rousseau (hit, not homerun)

Spencer Brown (I'm tempted to call this a hit, as he has basically started when healthy his whole career)

Hamlin (less tempted to call this a hit, objectively I think he was not that good last year when pressed into duty, obviously rooting for him)

 

2021 verdict: I think this has to go Niners. We have the positional value but I think they have the better players.

 

So what have we learned here?

 

I think the conclusions that we can draw is that our parallel team in the Bay Area has not been some dominant drafting vehicle or some league leader in success. In fact, our records and drafting history stack up considerably well against them. They have their fair share of first round busts, far more than the Bills have. And HIGH first round busts, Solomon Thomas and Trey Lance loom much larger than Ed Oliver/Tremaine Edmunds just being starter-level players. I think SF gets a little bit of a pass for their shakier seasons because of their QB turmoil, but by the same token, don't pass on Mahomes for Solomon Thomas and don't draft busts like Lance.

 

Now we can turn to the peanut gallery. The lesser minds who have almost certainly skipped to the last paragraph.  The @Gugny 's and @BringBackFergy's of the world.

[FireChans]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

The difference is Josh.

 

Somewhat impressive they’ve been mostly good with constant turnover at the QB position and they’ve been to a SB… we’ve been struggling to get there with arguably the 2nd best QB in the league.(Not until 2020 was he truly great however.)

 

 

Still, I’d take Shannon over McD hands down.

Shanny picked Trey Lance lmao. He could've gotten Josh. He could've gotten Mahomes. 

 

I take McD and Josh over Lance/Purdy and Shanny HANDS DOWN.

[PBF81]

Now, put Allen on the Niners and their QBs on the Bills, and then what do you see?  

 

 

[FireChans]

Just now, PBF81 said:

Now, put Allen on the Niners and their QBs on the Bills, and then what do you see?  

 

 

If only the Niners had drafted an All-Pro QB. Alas, our regime did.  It's almost like that matters.

[PBF81]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

If only the Niners had drafted an All-Pro QB. Alas, our regime did.  It's almost like that matters.

 

Indeed, kinda like how we could have had Mahomes, which almost everyone claims is better?  
 

Either way, in essence then, you're saying that McD's success is entirely due to Beane's having selected Allen.  I'll buy that.  

 

 

[JJGauna]

Let’s not forget that the AFC has been a much tougher conference than the NFC the last few years. Bills have done a great job fielding a Super Bowl contender.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Yes they clearly ***** that one up… In fact they’ve mismanaged the QB position altogether so it’s still somewhat impressive they’ve been as successful as they have been considering what they’ve had there(due to their own negligence/incompetence).

 

Strictly from a coaching stand point I’d take Shanny over McD.

 

of course you would

 

of course

 

2 minutes ago, JJGauna said:

Let’s not forget that the AFC has been a much tougher conference than the NFC the last few years. Bills have done a great job fielding a Super Bowl contender.

This right here is the gospel truth

 

[julian]

Agree on almost all of this, though I’d say Oliver and Edmunds are above just starter level players.

[Virgil]

2 minutes ago, JJGauna said:

Let’s not forget that the AFC has been a much tougher conference than the NFC the last few years. Bills have done a great job fielding a Super Bowl contender.

 

This!  I was literally about to type the same thing.  If the Bills got to play the NFC in the playoffs, we are talking a min of 2-3 NFC Championships if not Super bowl appearances

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Indeed, kinda like how we could have had Mahomes, which almost everyone claims is better?  
 

Either way, in essence then, you're saying that McD's success is entirely due to Beane's having selected Allen.  I'll buy that.  

 

 

Sure, we could've had Mahomes, who yes, is better. But we are not comparing ourselves to the Chiefs in this topic, but to the Niners.

 

As far as the bolded, that's kinda the game lmao.  See Sean Payton without Brees, Andy Reid without Mahomes, BB without Brady etc etc etc etc.

 

Hence why the Allen pick is the greatest pick in Bills history. And the regime who got the pick right deserves a lot of credit.

 

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Yes they clearly ***** that one up… In fact they’ve mismanaged the QB position altogether so it’s still somewhat impressive they’ve been as successful as they have been considering what they’ve had there(due to their own negligence/incompetence).

 

Strictly from a coaching stand point I’d take Shanny over McD.

Shanny the HC, sure. Shanny as what he is currently, which is like half-GM?  No chance. He is even worse with the mid round RB's than McBeane.

Edited August 24, 2023 by FireChans

[gobills404]

9 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

Now, put Allen on the Niners and their QBs on the Bills, and then what do you see?  

 

 

Actually keep Josh Allen, put Bosa on the Bills, and give the 49ers Basham. Now what do you see?

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

16 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

Now, put Allen on the Niners and their QBs on the Bills, and then what do you see?  

 

 

All kidding aside...could you imagine how fun that SF offense would be to watch if they had Allen? 

[JGMcD2]

15 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

Now, put Allen on the Niners and their QBs on the Bills, and then what do you see?  

 

 

This is a result of Lynch and Shannahan not being able acquire a good QB. They're to blame for that. 

[Wayne Cubed]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Shanny the HC, sure. Shanny as what he is currently, which is like half-GM?  No chance. He is even worse with the mid round RB's than McBeane.

 

The 49ers, as you pointed out, have been as successful as the Bills. The 49ers are also doing it in what I would consider a weaker NFC. I'm not sure it's a definitely have him as HC over McD.

[FilthyBeast]

Let's see, in regards to the 49ers they've just been to back to back NFC Championships and a SB appearance in 2019 that they had a 10 point lead late in the game before the legend of Mahomes emerged in the end. Mind you all of this has been accomplished with below average to average QB play.

 

Looking at the Bills, the current regimes success has been tied to getting stupid lucky with the JA17 pick. Take him out of the equation and this regime is already long gone and no different from their predecessors.

 

Bottom line...the 49ers have a great GM and HC whose just can't seem to solve the QB position but have been suburb everywhere else. And yes I would also fire McD and hire Shanahan without thinking twice about it if that were ever an option.

 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

Let's see, in regards to the 49ers they've just been to back to back NFC Championships and a SB appearance in 2019 that they had a 10 point lead late in the game before the legend of Mahomes emerged in the end. Mind you all of this has been accomplished with below average to average QB play.

 

Looking at the Bills, the current regimes success has been tied to getting stupid lucky with the JA17 pick. Take him out of the equation and this regime is already long gone and no different from their predecessors.

 

Bottom line...the 49ers have a great GM and HC whose just can't seem to solve the QB position but have been suburb everywhere else. And yes I would also fire McD and hire Shanahan without thinking twice about it if that were ever an option.

 

Are they really superb everywhere else? Solomon Thomas and Kinlaw and Lance are superb? 
 

There’s a big OP that kinda shows they are not THAT superb.

[FilthyBeast]

Just now, FireChans said:

Are they really superb everywhere else? Solomon Thomas and Kinlaw and Lance are superb? 
 

There’s a big OP that kinda shows they are not THAT superb.

 

No they aren't, and I acknowledged their shortcomings at the QB position and the fact that if they weren't a good team/roster folks would have been fired for the Lance pick and everything they gave up to get him.

 

But again, in the end it's all about results and their that's where McBeane's resume's don't hold up compared to SF's current regime.

[section122]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

Let's see, in regards to the 49ers they've just been to back to back NFC Championships and a SB appearance in 2019 that they had a 10 point lead late in the game before the legend of Mahomes emerged in the end. Mind you all of this has been accomplished with below average to average QB play.

 

Looking at the Bills, the current regimes success has been tied to getting stupid lucky with the JA17 pick. Take him out of the equation and this regime is already long gone and no different from their predecessors.

 

Bottom line...the 49ers have a great GM and HC whose just can't seem to solve the QB position but have been suburb everywhere else. And yes I would also fire McD and hire Shanahan without thinking twice about it if that were ever an option.

 

The niners got to stack that talent bc they bottomed out.  The Bills didnt have the luxury of drafting bosa bc they were in the playoffs. 

 

3 times they missed the playoffs and got to draft premier talent.  They got bosa, trey lance, and solomon thomas.  Imagine if Beane went 1 for 3 on top 3 picks!

 

Who in the nfc is as good as kc or even cincy for that matter?  The road to the super bowl is way harder in the afc as others have pointed out.

 

Funny you talk about blowing a 10 point lead in the super bowl as the legend of mahomes emerging.  Do you say the same about 13 seconds?

Just now, FilthyBeast said:

 

No they aren't, and I acknowledged their shortcomings at the QB position and the fact that if they weren't a good team/roster folks would have been fired for the Lance pick and everything they gave up to get him.

 

But again, in the end it's all about results and their that's where McBeane's resume's don't hold up compared to SF's current regime.

The op literally shows mcbeane has a better resume than sf lol.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

No they aren't, and I acknowledged their shortcomings at the QB position and the fact that if they weren't a good team/roster folks would have been fired for the Lance pick and everything they gave up to get him.

 

But again, in the end it's all about results and their that's where McBeane's resume's don't hold up compared to SF's current regime.

I posted their resumes…. They have 2 more playoff wins than McBeane. Along with 2 less playoff appearances, 2 more losing seasons and 10 less regular season wins.
 

Did you even read the OP?

Edited August 24, 2023 by FireChans

[FilthyBeast]

1 minute ago, section122 said:

The niners got to stack that talent bc they bottomed out.  The Bills didnt have the luxury of drafting bosa bc they were in the playoffs. 

 

3 times they missed the playoffs and got to draft premier talent.  They got bosa, trey lance, and solomon thomas.  Imagine if Beane went 1 for 3 on top 3 picks!

 

Who in the nfc is as good as kc or even cincy for that matter?  The road to the super bowl is way harder in the afc as others have pointed out.

 

Funny you talk about blowing a 10 point lead in the super bowl as the legend of mahomes emerging.  Do you say the same about 13 seconds?

The op literally shows mcbeane has a better resume than sf lol.

 

If you are talking about overall W/L record great, I'm talking about being able to advance past the divisional round and compete for SB's consistently which is what matters (at least to me anyway) and a big reason for this is they have a defense that actually performs in the playoffs and not just the regular season.

[YattaOkasan]

8 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

Let's see, in regards to the 49ers they've just been to back to back NFC Championships and a SB appearance in 2019 that they had a 10 point lead late in the game before the legend of Mahomes emerged in the end. Mind you all of this has been accomplished with below average to average QB play.

 

Looking at the Bills, the current regimes success has been tied to getting stupid lucky with the JA17 pick. Take him out of the equation and this regime is already long gone and no different from their predecessors.

 

Bottom line...the 49ers have a great GM and HC whose just can't seem to solve the QB position but have been suburb everywhere else. And yes I would also fire McD and hire Shanahan without thinking twice about it if that were ever an option.

 

Now tell me how many super bowls we wouldve made if we were in the NFC?  I think 2020 and 2021 the NFC was pretty weak and we would have had much easier roads (also of note: teams that beat us lose the next week pretty consistently).

[FilthyBeast]

Just now, FireChans said:

I posted their resumes…. They have 2 more playoff wins than McBeane. Along with 2 less playoff appearances, 2 more losing seasons and 10 less regular seasons. 
 

Did you even read the OP?

 

Again, what team has been to a SB and back to back NFCCG (3 total including the 2019 SB year)? Behind a dominant defense that actually performs in games that matter without a legit franchise QB.

 

You really think Beane/McD are better because of their overall W/L record in the regular season?? If that's the case Marty Schottenheimer is the best coach in NFL history as well.

[YattaOkasan]

3 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

If you are talking about overall W/L record great, I'm talking about being able to advance past the divisional round and compete for SB's consistently which is what matters (at least to me anyway) and a big reason for this is they have a defense that actually performs in the playoffs and not just the regular season.

Playoffs are specifically against your conference of which the AFC has been better the past few years.  I certainly think we get to the championship game more frequently if we are in the other conference and the niners are in this conference.

[oldmanfan]

Read Peter King’s FMIA this week.  It talks about the Niners focusing on defense.

[YattaOkasan]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Again, what team has been to a SB and back to back NFCCG (3 total including the 2019 SB year)? Behind a dominant defense that actually performs in games that matter without a legit franchise QB.

 

You really think Beane/McD are better because of their overall W/L record in the regular season?? If that's the case Marty Schottenheimer is the best coach in NFL history as well.

Switch the teams (division and conference) and tell me niners have the same postseason success with the Chiefs in the division.  Also of note only the chiefs and bills have been to the playoffs and won a game each of the last three seasons.  If anything we have been very consistent of late after a slow start with McBeane

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Again, what team has been to a SB and back to back NFCCG (3 total including the 2019 SB year)? Behind a dominant defense that actually performs in games that matter without a legit franchise QB.

 

You really think Beane/McD are better because of their overall W/L record in the regular season?? If that's the case Marty Schottenheimer is the best coach in NFL history as well.

Cool. They have literally nothing to show for it.

 

Brady and the Bucs only got to the NFCCG once. I guess the Niners were more successful than them lol.

[PBF81]

30 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Hence why the Allen pick is the greatest pick in Bills history. And the regime who got the pick right deserves a lot of credit.  

 

For the pick.  In a lot of peoples' opinions McD is doing less with more in that regard.  

 

Also, 

30 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Shanny the HC, sure. Shanny as what he is currently, which is like half-GM?  No chance. He is even worse with the mid round RB's than McBeane.

 

Possibly, I'm hardly a Shanahan apologist.  I wouldn't want him coaching my team.  

 

 

28 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

Actually keep Josh Allen, put Bosa on the Bills, and give the 49ers Basham. Now what do you see?

 

Why not put all their good guys on our team and "see."   LOL 

 

I'll tell ya what, switch Allen for Bosa and we're a .500 team regardless.  D doesn't win in the modern NFL.  

 

 

[FireChans]

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

For the pick.  In a lot of peoples' opinions McD is doing less with more in that regard.  

 

Also, 

 

Possibly, I'm hardly a Shanahan apologist.  I wouldn't want him coaching my team.  

 

 

FTR, I meant sure as in there's an argument there. Not sure it's a no brainer.

 

And less with more? Idk, top 3 seed 3 years in a row?  Payton/Brees only did that once in their career together.

[PBF81]

25 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

All kidding aside...could you imagine how fun that SF offense would be to watch if they had Allen? 

 

Yeah, no kidding.  They should be fine with Purdy, who seems to be more in the Burrow mold, but if he maintains his level of play and improves after his rookie season, they'll have their franchise QB too.  

 

It's nice to have that piece, because then you can focus on building the rest of the team.  That's what many Bills fans and a lot of media have problems with, what we've done apart from Allen.  ... and Diggs.  Hopefully this year is a turning point with Kincaid & Torrence.  

 

 

28 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

This is a result of Lynch and Shannahan not being able acquire a good QB. They're to blame for that. 

 

You lay that out as if it's trivial to acquire one.  We tried for what, over 20 years, with varying people in charge, and got nothing after Kelly.  It's not that easy and also requires quite a bit of good fortune.  

 

 

[oldmanfan]

As much as I love what Josh has done thus far, when you have OJ, Bruce, and Kelly there is no way you can say he’s the best draft pick in franchise history at this point in his career.

Edited August 24, 2023 by oldmanfan

[Rico]

Shanahan’s 2 EPIC chokes in the Super Bowl

 

vs.

 

McD’s 1 EPIC choke in the playoffs.

 

Advantage McD.

[FilthyBeast]

3 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Switch the teams (division and conference) and tell me niners have the same postseason success with the Chiefs in the division.  Also of note only the chiefs and bills have been to the playoffs and won a game each of the last three seasons.  If anything we have been very consistent of late after a slow start with McBeane

 

They have had playoff teams in their division all these years including the Rams who just won a SB 2 years ago (The 49ers nearly won the NFC championship game and swept them in regular season that year). Cardinals and Seahawks also made playoffs multiple times during that stretch.

 

Bills have played in a watered down, rebuilding AFC East from 2019 - 2022 which is why most pundits see them regressing this year now that every other team in the division has gotten better (especially Jets/Dolphins).

 

One thing I would agree on is if both the 49ers and Bills played in the Chiefs division in recent years neither of them would have been anything more than a wildcard team.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

As much as I love what Josh has done thus far, when you have OJ, Bruce, and Kelly there is no way you can say he’s the best draft pick in franchise history at this point in his career.

Appreciate your opinion.

 

In today's era, the QB value is higher than ever.  Allen is already a better QB than Kelly (some people disagree but that's to be expected around here). Bruce maaaaaaaaaaay have an argument, but the rest, flat out nah.

[FilthyBeast]

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Cool. They have literally nothing to show for it.

 

Brady and the Bucs only got to the NFCCG once. I guess the Niners were more successful than them lol.

 

Yeah and they also advanced to the SB and won it including embarrassing the Chiefs and Mahomes in the process, something else this regime has never done and likely never will.

 

Maybe start a poll online and see how many rational, unbiased NFL fans would take Beane/McDermott over Shanahan/Lynch. I can assure you it would be lopsided in one direction for anybody that pays attention.

[GoBills808]

Credit to the Bills for drafting Allen

 

Credit to the niners for going further w out a QB

[ngbills]

Give the Niners and Josh and how many Super Bowls do they have? I say at least a couple. 

[Freddie's Dead]

One small quibble about Josh being legit best pick in Bills history.  Bruce Smith says hi.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Yeah and they also advanced to the SB and won it including embarrassing the Chiefs and Mahomes in the process, something else this regime has never done and likely never will.

 

Maybe start a poll online and see how many rational, unbiased NFL fans would take Beane/McDermott over Shanahan/Lynch. I can assure you it would be lopsided in one direction for anybody that pays attention.

Okay, the poll will be:

 

Shanahan/Lynch/Lance/DARNOLD/Purdy

 

vs.

 

McBeane/Allen

 

Why do a poll, let’s look at Super Bowl odds.

 

Oh look. 

Fanduel, BetMGM, DraftKings all have the Bills with better Super Bowl odds than the Niners. Caesar’s has them at the same odds.

 

Vegas must be FILLED with Bills’ fans. Don’t they know the Niners went to the NFCCG that one time? Lmao.

2 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Give the Niners and Josh and how many Super Bowls do they have? I say at least a couple. 

It’s the Niners’ fault they don’t have Josh. 

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

FTR, I meant sure as in there's an argument there. Not sure it's a no brainer.

 

And less with more? Idk, top 3 seed 3 years in a row?  Payton/Brees only did that once in their career together.

 

Less with more:  

 

Last three seasons ...

3-0 in the Wild Card Round  (2 of those wins against QBs Thompson and Jones)  

1-2 in the Divisional Round 

0-1 in the Conference Championship Game with the person we're talking about walking the Loss over to Reid on a silver platter at the end of the game.  

A supposed defensive expert allowing an average of 28 PPG, over 31 if we don't count the offensively bereft Pats, in our last four playoff games.  

Beating the Colts w/ Rivers despite being outplayed in that game.  

4-3 overall with two of those wins against marginal playoff teams and both with low-end QBs, and another win while being outplayed by a team with the 9th ranked scoring offense and 10th ranked scoring defense and a 39-year old washed up QB in his last-hurrah season.  

 

Winning a division with QBs like Jones, Fitzpatrick, Tagovailoa whose in and out with injuries like most people go out for wings, Skylar Thompson, Mike White, Zach Wilson, and Sam Darnold is hardly impressive.  It would have been along the lines of tragic had we not been able to do that, which fed directly into those seedings. 

 

Let's see how he does this season, over/under achieves, now that there's finally some competition in the division for the first time in over 20 years.  Brady & Belichick had it easy in that regard too.  

 

 

[ngbills]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Okay, the poll will be:

 

Shanahan/Lynch/Lance/DARNOLD/Purdy

 

vs.

 

McBeane/Allen

 

Why do a poll, let’s look at Super Bowl odds.

 

Oh look. 

Fanduel, BetMGM, DraftKings all have the Bills with better Super Bowl odds than the Niners. Caesar’s has them at the same odds.

 

Vegas must be FILLED with Bills’ fans. Don’t they know the Niners went to the NFCCG that one time? Lmao.

It’s the Niners’ fault they don’t have Josh. 

The 49ers have built an all around better team. You can harp on them for missing on picking Josh, but that is over-rewarding getting one pick right. We are lucky Mayfield and Darnold didnt drop in the draft or the story would be that we passed on Mahomes in 2017 and took one of those guys in 2018...ouch.