Training camp 7/27 9:45 AM

[BigAl2526]

10 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

Elam is also only in his second year, some players take longer to adjust, even first round picks, it happens.

Listening to Sal Capaccio on WGR, I understand Benford was well grounded in a defensive system that was very similar to what the Bills use.  Elam played mostly man.  Benford has the benefit of good football intelligence despite his small school background.  He doesn't make too many mistakes.  Elam is the more elite athlete, and that will enable him to make some plays that Benford never will, but he's probably not going to be as consistent as Benford for a while yet.  That's how I see this developing.  BTW, Dane Jackson has the advantage of experience over the other two, but is the most limited athlete of the three.  I think it is inevitable that Benford or Elam, or perhaps both of them overtake Jackson on the depth chart if they aren't there yet.

 

[John from Riverside]

9 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

Listening to Sal Capaccio on WGR, I understand Benford was well grounded in a defensive system that was very similar to what the Bills use.  Elam played mostly man.  Benford has the benefit of good football intelligence despite his small school background.  He doesn't make too many mistakes.  Elam is the more elite athlete, and that will enable him to make some plays that Benford never will, but he's probably not going to be as consistent as Benford for a while yet.  That's how I see this developing.  BTW, Dane Jackson has the advantage of experience over the other two, but is the most limited athlete of the three.  I think it is inevitable that Benford or Elam, or perhaps both of them overtake Jackson on the depth chart if they aren't there yet.

 

While all that is developing, I still think it’s a very good idea to have a man corner on the team to cover guys like Tyreek Hill

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

This shows a significant lack of understanding.   It's day two of training camp, and Torrence, a rookie, was starting with the ones.  Edmunds started from day 1.  Your characterization of McDermott is simply incorrect.  

 

And I continue to say that complaints about Dane are evidence that people don't understand the defense.  Somebody posted data a month ago or so showing Sauce Gardiner gave less separation than any corner in the league in man and in zone.  Dane gave up a lot of separation in zone and was middle of the pack in man.  Why did Gardiner give up less separation in zone than Dane?   Because he didn't know how to play the defense.   In zone, you're supposed to leave your man as you read the keys.   Sticking by you man when the play is going the other way is a bad move. 

 

Dane knows what he's doing, which is why he's on the field, and Elam hasn't learned that yet.   I hope he does, because he has talent. 

 

And for those who say Elam outplayed Benford, I don't what you were watching.  Benford was clearly better until he got injured.  He was better because like Dane, he understood his role in the defense.  

Yeah that’s why Gardner is an all pro and Dane was every QBs whipping boy on third down. You gotta cover your zone, if a WRs in there hes your man. 

[BigAl2526]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

While all that is developing, I still think it’s a very good idea to have a man corner on the team to cover guys like Tyreek Hill

I don't think there is any question about Elam making the team.  Even if he doesn't win the starting job outright, I think McDermott is going to give him plenty of reps.

7 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

I saw in the foment section of Astro’s article yesterday that he didn’t have tickets for today’s practice but was working on it. I’m guessing he never found a ticket.

He posted on his website that he didn't get a ticket for today, but would have one for tomorrow.

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Yeah that’s why Gardner is an all pro and Dane was every QBs whipping boy on third down. You gotta cover your zone, if a WRs in there hes your man. 

You missed the point.  I wasn't saying Dane is better than Gardner.   I was saying that McDermott requires his DBs to play the position in a particular way, and it isn't always apparent to the fans, including me, why a guy plays.  Levi Wallace was a whipping boy around here for years, but he stayed in the lineup because he played the way McDermott wanted.  

 

What was perfectly clear last season was that Elam didn't play the zones the way he is supposed to.   

 

The reason Hyde and Poyer are so good is that they've internalized their assignments so well, that they always know what they're supposed to be doing AND what the other safety is doing.  Elam didn't show that last season, and if he never learns it, he never will be a full time starter.   

 

White was a great cover guy when he came out of college, but the reason he started as a rookie was because he understood and executed his broader role.   I hope Elam gets there, because I like his cover skills, but it's up to him.

[Warcodered]

 

[Airseven]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Allen is  superman, no doubt about it, but he cannot do it all by himself to say that he does everything by himself is just folly

Contradiction. He’s not Superman. Don’t cower from your own point.

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

As my thinking has evolved during the off-season, I've come around to what you're saying. 

 

It's heresy around here, I know, but I think the problem with the offense is not the weapons surrounding Josh, it's Josh.  In particular, it's Josh's completion percentage. 

 

What makes for consistently good offense is getting positive yardage on every play.   0 yards on a play is bad, negative yards is worse.  Josh has used the wrong thought process up until now.    If you have a 60% chance of completing a pass for 20 yards, one would think that's a better option than the 90% chance for 10 yards, because on average you get 12 yards out of the 60% play and only 9 yards out of the 90% play, but I don't think that thinking is correct.    The consequences of getting 0 yards on 40% of the longer throw is much worse than the extra yards gained on the 60%.   It's better to get positive yardage virtually all the time, even if that positive yardage is less than you'd get on the longer throw.   0 yards on a play is a bad outcome. 

 

Josh needs an offense that gives him 2-3 quick reads for 5-7 yards, and he needs to take them.  Save the downfield throws for the times when the chances of completing them are 80%, not 60%.   The rest of the time, take the easy throw.  

 

Josh is 37 on the career completion percentage list, behind about 15 current QBs, including Burrow, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers, to name a few.  Retired names ahead of him included Peyton and Brees, Big Ben and Tom Brady, Steve Young and Kurt Warner.  

 

Josh doesn't complete enough passes, period.  He has the best arm in the league, maybe even in the history of the league, but to date he hasn't had the best head.   He needs to take and complete the easy throws.  

 

 

 

 

Meh, not saying you're wrong, but I'd rather see uniquely exciting QB play. Bomb it all day. A Super Bowl used to be more important to me, but the older I get, the more I just want to see the new/unique/exciting/one of a kind. Josh is all that.

[That's No Moon]

25 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Meh, not saying you're wrong, but I'd rather see uniquely exciting QB play. Bomb it all day. A Super Bowl used to be more important to me, but the older I get, the more I just want to see the new/unique/exciting/one of a kind. Josh is all that.

 

[BananaB]

48 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You missed the point.  I wasn't saying Dane is better than Gardner.   I was saying that McDermott requires his DBs to play the position in a particular way, and it isn't always apparent to the fans, including me, why a guy plays.  Levi Wallace was a whipping boy around here for years, but he stayed in the lineup because he played the way McDermott wanted.  

 

What was perfectly clear last season was that Elam didn't play the zones the way he is supposed to.   

 

The reason Hyde and Poyer are so good is that they've internalized their assignments so well, that they always know what they're supposed to be doing AND what the other safety is doing.  Elam didn't show that last season, and if he never learns it, he never will be a full time starter.   

 

White was a great cover guy when he came out of college, but the reason he started as a rookie was because he understood and executed his broader role.   I hope Elam gets there, because I like his cover skills, but it's up to him.

White started because we traded Darby and let Gilmore walk. We were in a rebuild  and he had time to learn. Wallace was pressed into action and did pretty well considering.  Still the team had time to let him play and learn because we were in a transition building this team. Same can be said for a lot of players. Allen, Edmunds, Dawkins, Johnson.  These guys all learned on the field because roster was thin and they had time to develop them that way.  We even leaned on Robert Foster at one point. Even Knox, he was brought in later but no one really here to keep him on the bench so he had to learn. 

 

Rosters changed as years went on and brings more competition. The more we hear McD give the playbook excuse to use average vets and not his rookies. Ed had a slow learning process, in and out of the lineup. Aj and Boogie hardly ever see the field but we haven’t seen anybody really standout above them. Just average play. We seen this with other positions as well, RB, WR come to mind last year. This process is not getting our most talented players ready for the biggest stage, playoffs.  Might be why our D gets crushed every year we face a solid QB. Elam might have been our best DB in playoffs, not sure we get by Miami without him on the field. Sad thing is if he seen the field more during regular season he might have been even better. But McD stuck with Dane despite him getting toasted every week. He also stuck with McKenzie despite his ***** play and kept Shakir on the bench. H

[NewEra]

6 hours ago, Warcodered said:

But who will point out that there's a gray cloud to every silver lining?

There’s plenty here that are much worse than scott

[NewEra]

44 minutes ago, BananaB said:

White started because we traded Darby and let Gilmore walk. We were in a rebuild  and he had time to learn. Wallace was pressed into action and did pretty well considering.  Still the team had time to let him play and learn because we were in a transition building this team. Same can be said for a lot of players. Allen, Edmunds, Dawkins, Johnson.  These guys all learned on the field because roster was thin and they had time to develop them that way.  We even leaned on Robert Foster at one point. Even Knox, he was brought in later but no one really here to keep him on the bench so he had to learn. 

 

Rosters changed as years went on and brings more competition. The more we hear McD give the playbook excuse to use average vets and not his rookies. Ed had a slow learning process, in and out of the lineup. Aj and Boogie hardly ever see the field but we haven’t seen anybody really standout above them. Just average play. We seen this with other positions as well, RB, WR come to mind last year. This process is not getting our most talented players ready for the biggest stage, playoffs.  Might be why our D gets crushed every year we face a solid QB. Elam might have been our best DB in playoffs, not sure we get by Miami without him on the field. Sad thing is if he seen the field more during regular season he might have been even better. But McD stuck with Dane despite him getting toasted every week. He also stuck with McKenzie despite his ***** play and kept Shakir on the bench. H

Did our d get crushed when they played KC last season?  What other offense crushed us when we were even somewhat healthy? Or did they only get crushed when they were decimated by injury?  
 

welcome to the sadness brigade-  chief custodian officer is your title

Edited July 28, 2023 by NewEra

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Airseven said:

Contradiction. He’s not Superman. Don’t cower from your own point.

Why are you even hear you’re no bills fan?

[BananaB]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

Did our d get crushed when they played KC last season?  What other offense crushed us when we were even somewhat healthy? Or did they only get crushed when they were decimated by injury?  
 

welcome to the sadness brigade-  chief custodian officer is your title

Our D got crushed every playoff exit we had the past 3 years. How do you win Championships that way? 

[Aussie Joe]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Why are you even hear you’re no bills fan?

I think he is a Bengals fan

7 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Meh, not saying you're wrong, but I'd rather see uniquely exciting QB play. Bomb it all day. A Super Bowl used to be more important to me, but the older I get, the more I just want to see the new/unique/exciting/one of a kind. Josh is all that.

I just want them to win games … I don’t care about the style points 

[Don Otreply]

8 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

As my thinking has evolved during the off-season, I've come around to what you're saying. 

 

It's heresy around here, I know, but I think the problem with the offense is not the weapons surrounding Josh, it's Josh.  In particular, it's Josh's completion percentage. 

 

What makes for consistently good offense is getting positive yardage on every play.   0 yards on a play is bad, negative yards is worse.  Josh has used the wrong thought process up until now.    If you have a 60% chance of completing a pass for 20 yards, one would think that's a better option than the 90% chance for 10 yards, because on average you get 12 yards out of the 60% play and only 9 yards out of the 90% play, but I don't think that thinking is correct.    The consequences of getting 0 yards on 40% of the longer throw is much worse than the extra yards gained on the 60%.   It's better to get positive yardage virtually all the time, even if that positive yardage is less than you'd get on the longer throw.   0 yards on a play is a bad outcome. 

 

Josh needs an offense that gives him 2-3 quick reads for 5-7 yards, and he needs to take them.  Save the downfield throws for the times when the chances of completing them are 80%, not 60%.   The rest of the time, take the easy throw.  

 

Josh is 37 on the career completion percentage list, behind about 15 current QBs, including Burrow, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers, to name a few.  Retired names ahead of him included Peyton and Brees, Big Ben and Tom Brady, Steve Young and Kurt Warner.  

 

Josh doesn't complete enough passes, period.  He has the best arm in the league, maybe even in the history of the league, but to date he hasn't had the best head.   He needs to take and complete the easy throws.  

 

 

 

 

Yup, I’ve been saying as much for a while now.  Completing more short/ intermediate passes not only increases the odds of moving the  chains successfully, it keeps our offense on the field, having the extra added benefit of keeping the opposing offense off the field.  This wears out the opposing defenses come the 3rd and 4th quarters when they can’t get off the field. It allows the Bills to control the flow of the game and time of possession. All of this increases the odds of success throughout the regular and post seasons. Josh has to think big picture more, and take those chain moving options when they are available. If you don’t believe me ask Tom Brady…, 

[faderphreak]

32 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

"Josh has to think big picture more, and take those chain moving options when they are available. If you don’t believe me ask Tom Brady…, "

 

As I've been reading this thread and the mild debate regarding the need for Josh to make better decisions and take what is given I keep thinking about Tom Brady.  He took receiving rooms with way less talent on paper than what we have in Buffalo right now by simply dinking and dunking through the first 2-3 quarters, and then taking the kill shots late in the third or early in the fourth when defenses got sucked in to try and shut down those death by 1000 cuts type of passes. 

 

At the time it was so frustrating to watch Brady do that to the Bills and other teams. At the time I thought it was Belichick's modernization of Parcell's "3 yards and a cloud of dust."  Instead, it was 3 yards and a thud all the way down the field. 

[Lost]

44 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Yup, I’ve been saying as much for a while now.  Completing more short/ intermediate passes not only increases the odds of moving the  chains successfully, it keeps our offense on the field, having the extra added benefit of keeping the opposing offense off the field.  This wears out the opposing defenses come the 3rd and 4th quarters when they can’t get off the field. It allows the Bills to control the flow of the game and time of possession. All of this increases the odds of success throughout the regular and post seasons. Josh has to think big picture more, and take those chain moving options when they are available. If you don’t believe me ask Tom Brady…, 

 

I wish we would consider this concept on defense.   By that I mean I'd like us to play more aggressive at the risk of giving up more big plays instead of playing soft zone all the time.  By just trying not to give up big plays we have been really letting opposing teams matriculate down the field and chew up massive amounts of clock, giving Josh Allen less time to do his thing.   I'd rather stack a lot of guys in the box and play more press man with increased probability of stopping drives cold or giving up the big plays which in either case means our offense gets back on the field quicker.    I've hated the bend but don't break defensive concept my whole life.   Maybe now that Frazier is gone we will change it up some.  

[scuba guy]

2 hours ago, BananaB said:

Our D got crushed every playoff exit we had the past 3 years. How do you win Championships that way? 

Did you watch the super bowl?

Didn't the Philly d get taken to the cleaners also with zero sacks.

[Don Otreply]

3 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

I wish we would consider this concept on defense.   By that I mean I'd like us to play more aggressive at the risk of giving up more big plays instead of playing soft zone all the time.  By just trying not to give up big plays we have been really letting opposing teams matriculate down the field and chew up massive amounts of clock, giving Josh Allen less time to do his thing.   I'd rather stack a lot of guys in the box and play more press man with increased probability of stopping drives cold or giving up the big plays which in either case means our offense gets back on the field quicker.    I've hated the bend but don't break defensive concept my whole life.   Maybe now that Frazier is gone we will change it up some.  

That is exactly why Frazier is gone, 

 

Like the offense, the defense needs to mix things up, neither side of the ball can do the same thing continuously and not get figured out, so you are correct in which the defense must be more aggressive at times, just as Dorsey and Josh need to mix in the short chain moving passes and run plays, you have to keep the opponents on the back foot as much as possible, gotta keep them guessing.  From what I have read and watched, McDermott has already started implementing this during the first two days of training camp, it is why they fired Frazier and Sean took over play calling on the D side. 

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, BananaB said:

Our D got crushed every playoff exit we had the past 3 years. How do you win Championships that way? 

 

You fire the defensive play caller and try again. 

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Meh, not saying you're wrong, but I'd rather see uniquely exciting QB play. Bomb it all day. A Super Bowl used to be more important to me, but the older I get, the more I just want to see the new/unique/exciting/one of a kind. Josh is all that.

I love this!   I do.   It's fabulous having Josh as the Bills QB, because his entertainment value is off the charts.  But I want the Lombardi.   He can be 5% less entertaining and 10% more effective, and I'll take that.  

[Shaw66]

44 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

I wish we would consider this concept on defense.   By that I mean I'd like us to play more aggressive at the risk of giving up more big plays instead of playing soft zone all the time.  By just trying not to give up big plays we have been really letting opposing teams matriculate down the field and chew up massive amounts of clock, giving Josh Allen less time to do his thing.   I'd rather stack a lot of guys in the box and play more press man with increased probability of stopping drives cold or giving up the big plays which in either case means our offense gets back on the field quicker.    I've hated the bend but don't break defensive concept my whole life.   Maybe now that Frazier is gone we will change it up some.  

Well, my heart is with you, but it really is about, I hate to say it, complementary football.  

 

I think your point about time of possession isn't correct.  The offense isn't on the field very long because it's a big-play offense.  It moves the ball in big chunks, which means the Bills don't have the ball long before scoring.   If he took the short, easy throws, the time of possession would go up.  

 

And as much as you (and I) talk about the bend-don't-break style of defense, that isn't really, correct, either.  The Bills can't be at the top of the league year after year in yards allowed if they're bend-don't-break.   BDB, by definition, gives up a lot of yards, and the Bills don't.  The truth is, the Bills were 5th in first downs allowed by the defense, and they were seventh best in third-down conversions by the opponent.   In other words, the defense stops the big play AND forces punts.    

 

I love the big defensive plays, too, but it's hard to argue with what the Bills do.   Hard to argue, that is, until you get to the playoffs, where that style may not be the best.  In the playoffs, you need some big plays. 

[Bray Wyatt]

6 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Why are you even hear you’re no bills fan?

 

He has been a troll going back to BBMB, same user name. To answer your question here though, simple answer is attention. Stop giving it to him, I would rather not see his ridiculous posts.

 

Cheers 🍻

[Solomon Grundy]

14 hours ago, Airseven said:

I’m indebted if you can find that answer.

Waiting on response from scouting department 😎

[scuba guy]

So here is my 2 cents.

 

I won't to see a drive this season one that we will all say epic.

 

Say let's have 2 holding penalties 😬 we overcome them.

 

Small game running attack 3 to 4 yards per gain. 

Maybe go for it once or twice on forth down. 

21 plays maybe 15 minutes.

 

This will show the commitment from the offense and the teams determined to be great

 

[LeGOATski]

16 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I love this!   I do.   It's fabulous having Josh as the Bills QB, because his entertainment value is off the charts.  But I want the Lombardi.   He can be 5% less entertaining and 10% more effective, and I'll take that.  

Do the math, Shaw. All you personally get out of this equation is 5% less entertaining. The Lombardi is not coming to you. It's not yours.

 

Give me 100% Josh Allen and 10% better play from the rest of the team.

 

That's 110% satisfaction.

[Richard Noggin]

For those debating offensive style/aggressiveness...we've already seen glimpses, full games, and consecutive strings of games of what QB17 looks like running a surgical, chain-moving, methodical attack. And to be honest, it's like watching a Fibonacci spiral unfurl its convergent song of mathematical precision and universal beauty. With Allen's talents, disciplined, rote execution eventually unlocks transcendent explosions.

 

 

[GoBills808]

poyer carrying less weight looks like

[AlfaBill]

18 hours ago, faderphreak said:

 

As I've been reading this thread and the mild debate regarding the need for Josh to make better decisions and take what is given I keep thinking about Tom Brady.  He took receiving rooms with way less talent on paper than what we have in Buffalo right now by simply dinking and dunking through the first 2-3 quarters, and then taking the kill shots late in the third or early in the fourth when defenses got sucked in to try and shut down those death by 1000 cuts type of passes. 

 

At the time it was so frustrating to watch Brady do that to the Bills and other teams. At the time I thought it was Belichick's modernization of Parcell's "3 yards and a cloud of dust."  Instead, it was 3 yards and a thud all the way down the field. 

Sounds so easy as a concept. What is needed is a WR with hands and some skill ala Beasley to take the short pass and make a move. The Bills didn’t have that last season and with Josh’s elbow injury making the short throws actually more painful plus his lack of faith in the WRS he went to the big play more often. Hopefully that is not the case this season.