Josh Allen and the next Steps we need him to make to be the best.

[Success]

1 minute ago, PrimeTime101 said:

you did not read my original post at al did you. read the title and replied didn't you?  As stated, I was referring to what it would take for JA to be best in league. 

 

I read through it.  I just disagreed w/ a lot of it, which is fine.  It's sports, so opinions will vary.

 

 

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

The Rams game was a lot of designed quick game. It was something Daboll did well

Don’t agree withvthis.  Then why is Allen depth of target big for his career?

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

28 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I read through it.  I just disagreed w/ a lot of it, which is fine.  It's sports, so opinions will vary.

 

 

 

 

I just think JA has the chance to be the best damn QB in football today. Just hope he among others on this team improve to help him get there.

[balln]

9 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I just think JA has the chance to be the best damn QB in football today. Just hope he among others on this team improve to help him get there.

I don’t think so. He’s not elite accurate in short / quick passing game. Not quick enough like mahommes 

 

he’s great tho and I’m glad we have him 

[PrimeTime101]

16 minutes ago, balln said:

I don’t think so. He’s not elite accurate in short / quick passing game. Not quick enough like mahommes 

 

he’s great tho and I’m glad we have him 

then you CLEARLY did not see what he did in the Rams game. Short passing quick throwing all game long.... I think it is delusional to think any top 3 QB in this league Can't be the best in game at any given year. 

[Success]

26 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I just think JA has the chance to be the best damn QB in football today. Just hope he among others on this team improve to help him get there.

 

Which is cool, of course.  My response didn't really address that - it was more that I want to see other areas of the team rise to the level he is setting (which I'm sure isn't too controversial).

 

I understand why opposing fans and pundits have Mahomes as the best right now. But it's really just the titles. I think Allen probably has the same success if he had been w/ the Chiefs this whole time.  

 

20 minutes ago, balln said:

I don’t think so. He’s not elite accurate in short / quick passing game. Not quick enough like mahommes 

 

he’s great tho and I’m glad we have him 

 

That's just last season. He has that skillset.  The elbow injury affected those intermediate throws the most.

 

[balln]

5 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

then you CLEARLY did not see what he did in the Rams game. Short passing quick throwing all game long.... I think it is delusional to think any top 3 QB in this league Can't be the best in game at any given year. 

Yea one game - and the rams sucked. Where was he vs bengals. Mahommes has game after game. Already w mvp and super bowls. Stop being a rose colored glass wearing homer . Live in reality.

 

you think Josh Allen is better than joe burrow or pat mahommes ? 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Which is cool, of course.  My response didn't really address that - it was more that I want to see other areas of the team rise to the level he is setting (which I'm sure isn't too controversial).

 

I understand why opposing fans and pundits have Mahomes as the best right now. But it's really just the titles. I think Allen probably has the same success if he had been w/ the Chiefs this whole time.  

 

 

That's just last season. He has that skillset.  The elbow injury affected those intermediate throws the most.

 

It’s not intermediate. It’s the short / elite accuracy ball placement anticipation passing game I think he’s lacking. consistently going to that part of his game as needed in game as defense gives him is what he fails to do. Every D says it - they dare him to take underneath. His own coach says in offseason. Processing and speeding up 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Not a Daboll/Dorsey thing imo

 

more a Beasley/McKenzie issue

If we need Allen to improve or get to another level to win a Super Bowl it's likely not going to happen

 

He threw 14 INTS, Burrow and Mahomes both had 12

Bingo. If over the next 3 seasons Allen plays EXACTLY as he has the last 3 seasons he will be more then good enough to win a Super Bowl.  The key to the Bills wining a Super Bowl is not Allen getting better it is:

 

* elevating the O line from being one of the worst in the NFL to just being average.

 

* redirecting resources away from the D in order to add quality skill players

 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, balln said:

Yea one game - and the rams sucked. Where was he vs bengals. Mahommes has game after game. Already w mvp and super bowls. Stop being a rose colored glass wearing homer . Live in reality.

 

you think Josh Allen is better than joe burrow or pat mahommes ?

 

I think Allen is equal to Mahomes and better then Burrow and I think Burrow is great.

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

16 minutes ago, balln said:

Yea one game - and the rams sucked. Where was he vs bengals. Mahommes has game after game. Already w mvp and super bowls. Stop being a rose colored glass wearing homer . Live in reality.

 

you think Josh Allen is better than joe burrow or pat mahommes ? 

I think he can be yes Right now? I look at it as tiers. the 3 of them are in the same tier. Mahomes has had elite talent around him from day one. Can Josh Allen get there? I absolutely believe it 

[CincyBillsFan]

18 minutes ago, balln said:

It’s not intermediate. It’s the short / elite accuracy ball placement anticipation passing game I think he’s lacking. consistently going to that part of his game as needed in game as defense gives him is what he fails to do. Every D says it - they dare him to take underneath. His own coach says in offseason. Processing and speeding up 

 

 

Did you watch the drives Allen orchestrated at the end to win the Chiefs, Ravens and 2nd Dolphins games? 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

it is not even as much about the time as it is about trusting the line to do their job. When you lose trust... you get happy feet all game.

I agree. When guys like Saffold,  Quessenberry and Brown get beat immediately,  your qb is going to instantly go into happy feet mode. I think this behavior over the last 5 years is a huge result of our poorly rated OL since 2018.  It also effects how little we run the ball. Hopefully this is the season guys like McGovern and Torrence can turn things around?  Maybe Shell beats out Spencer?

[balln]

6 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Did you watch the drives Allen orchestrated at the end to win the Chiefs, Ravens and 2nd Dolphins games? 

 

Yea. I care about the playoffs . Bengals game was a joke . Mia he kept going for haymakers. And then fumbled for a td 

6 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree. When guys like Saffold,  Quessenberry and Brown get beat immediately,  your qb is going to instantly go into happy feet mode. I think this behavior over the last 5 years is a huge result of our poorly rated OL since 2018.  It also effects how little we run the ball. Hopefully this is the season guys like McGovern and Torrence can turn things around?  Maybe Shell beats out Spencer?

Yea beane and McD are super clingy to guys they draft when they just suck. Nathan peterman and Cody ford come to mind.  Gotta play the more reliable RT whomever he may be 

Edited June 28, 2023 by balln

[PrimeTime101]

18 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree. When guys like Saffold,  Quessenberry and Brown get beat immediately,  your qb is going to instantly go into happy feet mode. I think this behavior over the last 5 years is a huge result of our poorly rated OL since 2018.  It also effects how little we run the ball. Hopefully this is the season guys like McGovern and Torrence can turn things around?  Maybe Shell beats out Spencer?

I think watching positional battles this year is going to be more fun then ever. Does anyone compete for #2 WR? The competition is huge at #3  Guards, RT, Mic LB. Going to be one of the more fun preseasons to watch. 

[Patrick Duffy]

11 minutes ago, balln said:

Yea one game - and the rams sucked. Where was he vs bengals. Mahommes has game after game. Already w mvp and super bowls. Stop being a rose colored glass wearing homer . Live in reality.

 

you think Josh Allen is better than joe burrow or pat mahommes ? 

 

 

It’s not intermediate. It’s the short / elite accuracy ball placement anticipation passing game I think he’s lacking. consistently going to that part of his game as needed in game as defense gives him is what he fails to do. Every D says it - they dare him to take underneath. His own coach says in offseason. Processing and speeding up 

 

 

 

I can understand to a certain extent where you're coming from about this. Although I do get the impression that you're not taking any other factors into consideration and only taking a single factor of just Josh for this issue. 

 

It's more that plays part for generally every issue and have to look at the whole thing. Things such as play calling, Oline protection issues, and drop off in WR talent (specifically the slot), elbow injury etc. It's more than just a Josh problem is my point.

[90sBills]

47 minutes ago, balln said:

Yea one game - and the rams sucked. Where was he vs bengals. Mahommes has game after game. Already w mvp and super bowls. Stop being a rose colored glass wearing homer . Live in reality.

 

you think Josh Allen is better than joe burrow or pat mahommes ? 

 

 

It’s not intermediate. It’s the short / elite accuracy ball placement anticipation passing game I think he’s lacking. consistently going to that part of his game as needed in game as defense gives him is what he fails to do. Every D says it - they dare him to take underneath. His own coach says in offseason. Processing and speeding up 

 

 

This is part of processing. He’s a tad slower than Mahomes on this aspect. He doesn’t see the whole field where all his guys are relative to where the defenders are. Protection issues  definitely affect this but it’s also on him. Hopefully this part will be better next season. If it is then turnovers would go down and numbers of 5yds dump offs that goes for 20yds will go up. 

[90sBills]

2 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

you did not read my original post at al did you. read the title and replied didn't you?  As stated, I was referring to what it would take for JA to be best in league. 

Wow didn’t realized Allen needs to be defended in this thread. If status quo isn’t working then everyone needs to improve. This is pretty standard stuffs for any teams, organizations, individuals etc. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, balln said:

Yea. I care about the playoffs . Bengals game was a joke . Mia he kept going for haymakers. And then fumbled for a td 

Yea beane and McD are super clingy to guys they draft when they just suck. Nathan peterman and Cody ford come to mind.  Gotta play the more reliable RT whomever he may be 

Allen>Burrow in the playoffs by quite a bit

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I think watching positional battles this year is going to be more fun then ever. Does anyone compete for #2 WR? The competition is huge at #3  Guards, RT, Mic LB. Going to be one of the more fun preseasons to watch. 

I just don't have alot of faith in Davis. Maybe he perks up in his contract year but I'm not holding my breath.  The 4 wrs that intrigue me the most are the "Sh" gang.  Shakir & Sherfield should battle for #3. And don't count out the 6-4 Shorter and Shavers. At least 3 of those guys make the team.

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Not a Daboll/Dorsey thing imo

 

more a Beasley/McKenzie issue

 

That was certainly a factor but there just seemed fewer designed into the offense. 

7 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Don’t agree withvthis.  Then why is Allen depth of target big for his career?

 

I am not arguing Allen only does quick game. Josh is a brilliant intermediate thrower and a good deep ball thrower. But when he has been at his absolute best there has been a diet of quick game mixed in. It helps move the chains, it helps force the defense to come up and it helps Josh get in rhythm, get completions and get rolling. It all aids the deep game. 

[Lost]

7 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Bingo. If over the next 3 seasons Allen plays EXACTLY as he has the last 3 seasons he will be more then good enough to win a Super Bowl.  The key to the Bills wining a Super Bowl is not Allen getting better it is:

 

* elevating the O line from being one of the worst in the NFL to just being average.

 

* redirecting resources away from the D in order to add quality skill players

 

 

 

 

I think Allen is equal to Mahomes and better then Burrow and I think Burrow is great.

 

 

 

All the best QB stuff aside.  Im not sure anyone would disagree that out of the group, Josh Allen is the most fun to watch.

[John from Riverside]

Late to the party on this one
 

So maybe just maybe the answer is not how Josh Allen is going to improve in order to make this team better maybe it’s time for the team to improve and not rely on Josh Allen so much

[PrimeTime101]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Late to the party on this one
 

So maybe just maybe the answer is not how Josh Allen is going to improve in order to make this team better maybe it’s time for the team to improve and not rely on Josh Allen so much

I think this is at least half the train of thought around here, things Josh can control are fumbles and timely endzone/redzone turnovers. 

[ProcessTruster]

He already is the best at his position.   If he had Andy Reid as his OC, the offense in general would be the best as well.  

[SoCal Deek]

Take the underneath stuff. Move the chains. Live to see the next set of downs. (And for heaven’s sake can we please use the goal line play where the TE sneaks out the backside of the formation and is standing wide open in the corner of the freaking end zone! 😉)

[AuntieEm]

On 6/27/2023 at 12:43 PM, 90sBills said:

Better OL will go a long way towards Allen elevating his game. This would improve his field vision. He needs to see every available outlet and make the right read. I’m hoping the amount of qb design runs would decrease. I’d much rather see him run when the defense is occupied with covering all the receivers. Then, most importantly, slide before contact. And like most of the comments above…better poise. He gets frustrated when things aren’t going well. Learn to control that emotion and overcome.

 

Good topic op!

This stat is only true because guess where most qbs operate? Yup in the pocket. So of course more qbs will be hurt there statistically.

 

Agree with you. Josh needs to avoid contact. 

  

  More so than avoiding contact I think he needed to tone down the rhetoric of being a football player first qb second.  I always get a sense there are plenty of players that are more than willing to hit a bit harder if you laugh when they do hit you.  It's like they are responding with ok laugh at that one as they maybe inflict enough extra to cause even minor injuries.  Injuries will happen no matter what you do to try prevent them so it is always very foolish to go looking for the contact that can cause them.  

 

  Also in games where the win is firmly in hand they need to get the backup some playing time too.  

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Take the underneath stuff. Move the chains. Live to see the next set of downs. (And for heaven’s sake can we please use the goal line play where the TE sneaks out the backside of the formation and is standing wide open in the corner of the freaking end zone! 😉)

So frustratingly clear when you watch the games.
 

discipline… 

 

Make the defense defend the short game and get it out fast. Spread the defense out horizontally and force their DBs to tackle. 

This helps the O line and wears out the defensive front. 

 

use athleticism and size of QB to find passing lanes with deeper drops and underneath routes. 
 

Keep your buf d off of the field.

 

The long game is there if and when you need it. 
 

 

[90sBills]

4 hours ago, AuntieEm said:

  

  More so than avoiding contact I think he needed to tone down the rhetoric of being a football player first qb second.  I always get a sense there are plenty of players that are more than willing to hit a bit harder if you laugh when they do hit you.  It's like they are responding with ok laugh at that one as they maybe inflict enough extra to cause even minor injuries.  Injuries will happen no matter what you do to try prevent them so it is always very foolish to go looking for the contact that can cause them.  

 

  Also in games where the win is firmly in hand they need to get the backup some playing time too.  

 

No doubt defensive players have this line of thoughts. Each tackle in and of itself may not cause much damage. But cumulative hits throughout the season will wear anybody down.

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by 90sBills

[HappyDays]

I'm baffled by any focus on what Allen needs to do to improve. He is by far the least improvable part of the team at any level. He had arguably the greatest playoff stretch in NFL history in '21/'22 and still got knocked out in the divisional round. We have a top 3 QB, no debate. If that isn't enough to win a Super Bowl, what is? IMO Allen has been good enough to win a Super Bowl since 2019 if he had the right roster around him. Moreso 2020 and beyond but even 2019 I think he was there if he had a loaded roster like the 49ers or Eagles.

 

The problem with this discussion is everyone wants to compare him to Burrow and Mahomes but each of them have had superior coaching and surrounding talent for pretty much their entire careers. It doesn't matter how you rank them from 1-3; the difference between #1 and #3 is almost nothing for just a single position, even the most important position in all of sports. Does Mahomes hobbling on one ankle beat the Bengals with our roster? No way.

 

So instead of worrying about Allen's performance I'm more concerned about the same issues that have plagued us for a couple years now - inconsistent offensive talent, questionable coaching decisions in critical moments, an inability to out-coach other teams in the playoffs. Each of these issues is fixable. Finding a better QB is not.

[90sBills]

13 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Each of these issues is fixable. Finding a better QB is not.

Who said anything about finding another qb?

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

On 6/27/2023 at 10:31 AM, Airseven said:

Allen needs to improve his poise, accuracy, timing, touch, footwork, ball security, decision making, and overall consistency of execution.

Kyle Allen definitely does 

[Nextmanup]

You left out the most important word if you are looking to improve Josh overall: consistency.

 

 

[Dopey]

15 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

He already is the best at his position.   If he had Andy Reid as his OC, the offense in general would be the best as well.  

What are we doing here?

The Bills were 2nd to KC in points per game: KC-29.2  Bills-28.4 that’s less than one point per game. 
Yds per game? Again 2nd: KC-413.6 Bills- 397.6 this is after checking a few sites. 16yds? And we scored 34 points and over 400 yds of offense in our playoff win over Miami. He doesn’t need Andy. We don’t need Andy. 
The Cincy game was a flop by the whole team, starting with Josh. Seemed a little distracted. Wonder what was on his mind. 🫄
 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Dopey

[90sBills]

22 minutes ago, Dopey said:

What are we doing here?

The Bills were 2nd to KC in points per game: KC-29.2  Bills-28.4 that’s less than one point per game. 
Yds per game? Again 2nd: KC-413.6 Bills- 397.6 this is after checking a few sites. 16yds? And we scored 34 points and over 400 yds of offense in our playoff win over Miami. He doesn’t need Andy. We don’t need Andy. 
The Cincy game was a flop by the whole team, starting with Josh. Seemed a little distracted. Wonder what was on his mind. 🫄
 

Thank you for saying this! Bills can win it all. But it won’t happen if the team doesn’t play better, including the qb. 

[CincyBillsFan]

On 6/27/2023 at 9:13 PM, balln said:

Yea. I care about the playoffs . Bengals game was a joke . Mia he kept going for haymakers. And then fumbled for a td 

 

Bengals game was a disaster for the offense for two primary reasons:

 

*  The Bengal's played great defense

*  The Bills O line had their worst game of the season.  Allen was pressured on half his drop backs. Do you remember what happened to Mahomes in the Tampa Bay SB under similar circumstances?

 

In the Miami game if Knox holds onto that TD and Shakir makes that catch on a perfectly thrown 55 yard haymaker the Bills have the game wrapped up at half.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Dopey said:

The Cincy game was a flop by the whole team, starting with Josh. Seemed a little distracted. Wonder what was on his mind. 🫄
 

I think the Bengal's pass rush was on his mind.  He was pressured on half his drop back pass attempts. 

 

 

18 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Late to the party on this one
 

So maybe just maybe the answer is not how Josh Allen is going to improve in order to make this team better maybe it’s time for the team to improve and not rely on Josh Allen so much

Thank you.  And we Bills fans should know this as we watched our HOF QB Jim Kelly get a lot of help from fellow HOF and all pro level players during the Super Bowl run.

 

[Solomon Grundy]

Keep, bench or cut. Mike Tannenbaum just said on KJM that at QB he'd keep Joe Burrow, bench Lamar Jackson and cut Josh Allen. It's just amazing to me how Josh Allen has lost some luster in the media. Max Kellerman has Josh rated as his 6th best QB in the league

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Keep, bench or cut. Mike Tannenbaum just said on KJM that at QB he'd keep Joe Burrow, bench Lamar Jackson and cut Josh Allen. It's just amazing to me how Josh Allen has lost some luster in the media. Max Kellerman has Josh rated as his 6th best QB in the league

It's not amazing to me at all given how so many of these "experts" predicted that Allen would be a draft bust on the order of Ryan Leaf.  We all saw the incredible nastiness that NFL talking heads threw at Allen & the Bills after they traded up to take him at #7 in 2018. 

 

So I'm not surprised in the least that given any opportunity they throw shade at Allen.  Allen failing, even now, would at least partially vindicate a group of "experts" who went on the record making what turned out to be the worst QB prediction in NFL history.  That has to still sting.

 

It is lunacy that Tannenbaum would keep Jackson over Allen.  As for Burrow I live in Cincinnati and have all the respect in the world for him and consider Burrow a great, elite NFL QB.  But Allen is better and if Allen had Burrow's weapons he would have at least one and maybe two SB trophy's. As for Kellerman ranking Allen as the 6th best QB - are you kidding me.  There is only one QB in the NFL who could be seriously put ahead of Allen and that's Mahomes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by CincyBillsFan

[GoBills808]

19 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I'm baffled by any focus on what Allen needs to do to improve. He is by far the least improvable part of the team at any level. He had arguably the greatest playoff stretch in NFL history in '21/'22 and still got knocked out in the divisional round. We have a top 3 QB, no debate. If that isn't enough to win a Super Bowl, what is? IMO Allen has been good enough to win a Super Bowl since 2019 if he had the right roster around him. Moreso 2020 and beyond but even 2019 I think he was there if he had a loaded roster like the 49ers or Eagles.

 

The problem with this discussion is everyone wants to compare him to Burrow and Mahomes but each of them have had superior coaching and surrounding talent for pretty much their entire careers. It doesn't matter how you rank them from 1-3; the difference between #1 and #3 is almost nothing for just a single position, even the most important position in all of sports. Does Mahomes hobbling on one ankle beat the Bengals with our roster? No way.

 

So instead of worrying about Allen's performance I'm more concerned about the same issues that have plagued us for a couple years now - inconsistent offensive talent, questionable coaching decisions in critical moments, an inability to out-coach other teams in the playoffs. Each of these issues is fixable. Finding a better QB is not.

this

[PrimeTime101]

20 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I'm baffled by any focus on what Allen needs to do to improve. He is by far the least improvable part of the team at any level. He had arguably the greatest playoff stretch in NFL history in '21/'22 and still got knocked out in the divisional round. We have a top 3 QB, no debate. If that isn't enough to win a Super Bowl, what is? IMO Allen has been good enough to win a Super Bowl since 2019 if he had the right roster around him. Moreso 2020 and beyond but even 2019 I think he was there if he had a loaded roster like the 49ers or Eagles.

 

The problem with this discussion is everyone wants to compare him to Burrow and Mahomes but each of them have had superior coaching and surrounding talent for pretty much their entire careers. It doesn't matter how you rank them from 1-3; the difference between #1 and #3 is almost nothing for just a single position, even the most important position in all of sports. Does Mahomes hobbling on one ankle beat the Bengals with our roster? No way.

 

So instead of worrying about Allen's performance I'm more concerned about the same issues that have plagued us for a couple years now - inconsistent offensive talent, questionable coaching decisions in critical moments, an inability to out-coach other teams in the playoffs. Each of these issues is fixable. Finding a better QB is not.

Did you read my original post? This was a discussion I started just for conversation to discuss what it would take for JA to be #1 QB hands down. We all know he is a top 3 QB. You do not think there are things JA can improve and situational awareness around JA to be that hands down #1 Best in league QB? Has JA been consistent? 

 

to the bottom bolded I 100% agree.  This has nothing to do with Comparing JA to other QB's . This was just the point of conversation that some, either did not read the OP or did and blew it out of proportion to begin with.