Gotta give Florio props, he loves to stoke the fire and he’s real good at it.

[newcam2012]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Because they had a better candidate, in house.   The Bills had someone they believed would be better.  It wasn't a crap shoot.  

Getting a MCD replacement is always considered a crap shoot in your eyes? 

 

Would Sean P be a crap shoot? Frank Reich? Ben Johnson? Eric Benamamy, Doug Pederson, etc...

 

Sometimes do you think that coaching changes can be advantageous? 

[Shaw66]

49 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Getting a MCD replacement is always considered a crap shoot in your eyes? 

 

Would Sean P be a crap shoot? Frank Reich? Ben Johnson? Eric Benamamy, Doug Pederson, etc...

 

Sometimes do you think that coaching changes can be advantageous? 

EVERY guy who hasn't been a head coach is a crap shoot.  It's a different job from being a coordinator.  Every single one is a crap shoot.  McDermott was a crapshoot.    

 

The most successful coordinator turned head coach, Sean McVay, has a mixed record.  And Shanahan.   Yes, every successful head coach was once a successful coordinator, but most successful coordinators who become head coaches get fired.   

 

So, yeah, at this point I wouldn't consider, for a second, replacing McDermott with anyone who hasn't been a successful head coach already.  

 

Frank Reich?   No, already tried the job once and failed.   Maybe he'll be better the second time (Belichick, Reid), but failure the second time around is more likely than success.  Why would I want someone who failed at his first shot worse than you think McDermott might be failing in his first shot? 

 

On your list, I don't like Payton, but that's just a personal opinion.   If Payton or Pederson were available, and if I were unhappy with McDermott, I would certainly consider them.  They're worth the risk.  

 

But think about this:   If you're Pederson (and forgetting the rules that might prohibit such conversations), how do you react when Pegula calls you and says, "I'm thinking about making a change," how do you react?   If I'm Pederson, I think, "the only reason he's calling is that he wants a Super Bowl NOW, and McDermott hasn't done it.  What does that say about my job security?"   Pederson knows how hard it is to win a Super Bowl, he's got a job and got a QB, and he probably has job security.  So why would he want to move?   

 

When you put it altogether, at least in my mind, the chances are mighty low that you will get a better coach, and the chances are pretty high that you'll get one worse.   

 

It's different, of course, if your head coach is failing.  But only some Bills fans and a few talking heads think McDermott is failing, and that's only because he hasn't won a Super Bowl yet, which is a really unfair standard.  

 

Now, maybe you are absolutely, absolutely sure about a guy, and then yes, you take your shot.   But most of the time, owners who were absolutely sure found out that they were mistaken.   

 

 

[Chaos]

On 6/15/2023 at 3:22 PM, Shaw66 said:

gets relieved of his duties

this is not at all clear. 

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Sean McVay, has a mixed record

Mixed record. Two super bowl appearances and win before turning 40.  With Jared Goff and Matt Stafford.  McVay is a rock star. 

[newcam2012]

17 minutes ago, Chaos said:

this is not at all clear. 

Mixed record. Two super bowl appearances and win before turning 40.  With Jared Goff and Matt Stafford.  McVay is a rock star. 

Little doubt the Bills wouldn't have a Lombardi or a SB appearence if Mcvay was the coach. 

 

I agree McVay is one of the best out there. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by newcam2012

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

 

Mixed record. Two super bowl appearances and win before turning 40.  With Jared Goff and Matt Stafford.  McVay is a rock star. 

Fair enough.  But the point isn't whether McVay is a success or not.  The point is that if you look at all the coordinators who've become head coaches in the last seven or eight years, and look at all of their records, only a very few have records better than McDermott's, and most of them already have been fired.  That track record suggests that it is very difficult to pick the successful head coaches from any existing pool of coordinators.  That means that the chances are you will get a worse coach, not a better coach. 

 

Now, there is an argument that teams need an offensive head coach, not a defensive head coach, and if you look at the OCs who have become HCs, their records probably actually are better than the average.  Still, even the OCs fail at a high rate.  

 

I'm quite sure that if you polled owners and executives, they'd tell you that replacing McDermott, or thinking that he should be replaced if he doesn't deliver a Lombardi in a year or two, is a silly idea.  

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

Little doubt the Bills wouldn't have a Lombardi or a SB appearence if Mcvay was the coach. 

 

 

Plenty of doubt.  It isn't easy.  A lot of things have to come together.  

[HappyDays]

I listened to the whole episode and I don't have a problem with anything Florio and Simms said. They're exactly right - McDermott was in damage control in his Wednesday presser. The messaging was not consistent from one day to the next. The QB had an awkward 11 minute press conference where he had to try to diffuse the situation. It was a major PR blunder from a regime that has been much more buttoned up in the past.

[BillsFanForever19]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I listened to the whole episode and I don't have a problem with anything Florio and Simms said. They're exactly right - McDermott was in damage control in his Wednesday presser. The messaging was not consistent from one day to the next. The QB had an awkward 11 minute press conference where he had to try to diffuse the situation. It was a major PR blunder from a regime that has been much more buttoned up in the past.

 

It's pretty clear to me that McDermott made a conscious decision to throw Diggs under the bus and someone above him, whether it was Beane or Pegula, put him in his place over it.

 

McDermott ALWAYS goes out of his way to downplay or flat out lie about things to the press to avoid any sort of distraction. It's his M.O. But this time, he went out of character and deliberately made things a public mess.

 

Then the next day, he completely contradicts himself and is reading a carefully prepared statement off of a piece of paper - surely carefully constructed by multiple people and/or the PR Department.

 

The whole thing was a mess of McDermott's own creation. Diggs did what he did. But McDermott could have done what he always does and it would have been a minor blip in the media.

[Dr.Sack]

This is the guy who exposed himself on zoom to his coworkers.

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I listened to the whole episode and I don't have a problem with anything Florio and Simms said. They're exactly right - McDermott was in damage control in his Wednesday presser. The messaging was not consistent from one day to the next. The QB had an awkward 11 minute press conference where he had to try to diffuse the situation. It was a major PR blunder from a regime that has been much more buttoned up in the past.

 

Agree it was. Was akin to sending Anthony Lynn out there to defend benching Tyrod. 

 

Who knows the details of what went down last week? But was not the Bills' best week in media management terms. They made a bit of a mess of it.

[Einstein]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:02 PM, Shaw66 said:

The Eagles took that bet and lost, badly, by hiring Chip Kelly.   Yes, they got a Super Bowl the next time around, but the fact that they fired a first round Hall of Fame coach and replaced him with a total failure is telling.   

 

There is a good chance that the  Eagles would still be Super Bowl less if they had kept Andy Reid.

 

Reid has 2 Super Bowl's now because of Patrick Mahomes. One of the best QB's to ever play the game.

 

Billy Bob Thornton could win a Super Bowl with Patrick Mahomes.

[Chaos]

21 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

I'm quite sure that if you polled owners and executives

Maybe that would be a poll response.  But in reality guys who have won super bowls like doug pederson and ron rivera and mike mccarthy have gotten fired.  McDermott is currently the longest tenured NFL HC without a super bowl appearance.  So most teams, in practice, would likely cut ties if the Bills don't move forward this year. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Chaos

[ganesh]

18 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I listened to the whole episode and I don't have a problem with anything Florio and Simms said. They're exactly right - McDermott was in damage control in his Wednesday presser. The messaging was not consistent from one day to the next. The QB had an awkward 11 minute press conference where he had to try to diffuse the situation. It was a major PR blunder from a regime that has been much more buttoned up in the past.

I think this is a problem.  Until now, the BIlls have been perceived as a well-run professional organization and that they know what they are doing. That is what helped us get FA such as Miller, Floyd, Ford etc.   The handling of this business (or inability to handle) is going to raise eyebrows in the future as to the capabilty of this organization.  

[4merper4mer]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:33 PM, newcam2012 said:

Getting a MCD replacement is always considered a crap shoot in your eyes? 

 

Would Sean P be a crap shoot? Frank Reich? Ben Johnson? Eric Benamamy, Doug Pederson, etc...

 

Sometimes do you think that coaching changes can be advantageous? 

Eric Misspelling is definitely a crap shoot at best.  Sean P is a coke head.  Ben Johnson the hot name du jour.  I love Frank Reich but he is a proven lesser coach than McD.  Pederson has his bona fides but also burned a lot of bridges.  In summary, yes.  Arbitrarily getting rid of a successful coach is at best a crap shoot.

 

If a team consistently took the approach of getting rid of coaches with results similar to McD, to you think that team would be an attractive destination?

[newcam2012]

22 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Eric Misspelling is definitely a crap shoot at best.  Sean P is a coke head.  Ben Johnson the hot name du jour.  I love Frank Reich but he is a proven lesser coach than McD.  Pederson has his bona fides but also burned a lot of bridges.  In summary, yes.  Arbitrarily getting rid of a successful coach is at best a crap shoot.

 

If a team consistently took the approach of getting rid of coaches with results similar to McD, to you think that team would be an attractive destination?

Let me put it another way. Give you a different perspective to ponder. 

 

Do you think there are viable good coaches out there? Solid to good coaches. I think that answer has to be yes. Many have been named already.

 

With that said, how much worse do you think another coach will do? Especially, consider the playoffs. 

 

The Bills have a generational franchise QB. That almost assures you of a good season record and a playoff birth. Agree? The coach pretty much doesn't have to mess it up sort of speak. It's a bit rudimentary but you get the gest. 

 

How much of a difference maker do you think McD is? Does he win big games? Does he win playoff games? Has he coached well in the playoffs? When is the last time you said to yourself wow McD is managing a great game. The coaching staff is outstanding this game? Playoffs? Miami game? Cinci game? KC games? Indy game? Texans game? Jags game? You see a theme here? 

 

Point being McD is not elite and it's very clear come playoff time. It's not a one or two game sample either. It's time to cut the cord your playoff losses. Increase your chances to make a SB run. A solid coach can do it. Ben Johnson or Lou A with the Bengals. 

 

I'd argue the Bills won't lose much and there will be little to no drop off if they add a solid coach. 

 

Of course, there is some risk. Hopefully, I have convinced you that the risk is pretty low and minimized by a franchise QB. 

 

The McD show has peaked...

[GoBills808]

48 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Eric Misspelling is definitely a crap shoot at best.  Sean P is a coke head.  Ben Johnson the hot name du jour.  I love Frank Reich but he is a proven lesser coach than McD.  Pederson has his bona fides but also burned a lot of bridges.  In summary, yes.  Arbitrarily getting rid of a successful coach is at best a crap shoot.

 

If a team consistently took the approach of getting rid of coaches with results similar to McD, to you think that team would be an attractive destination?

Any team w Allen is an attractive destination 

[GreggTX]

Controversy drives ratings. Like they say, all publicity is good publicity.

 

[hondo in seattle]

On 6/17/2023 at 2:15 PM, Einstein said:

 

There is a good chance that the  Eagles would still be Super Bowl less if they had kept Andy Reid.

 

Reid has 2 Super Bowl's now because of Patrick Mahomes. One of the best QB's to ever play the game.

 

Billy Bob Thornton could win a Super Bowl with Patrick Mahomes.

 

Don't underestimate Reid.  I remember thinking Philly made a huge mistake when they fired him and I certainly think there's a chance he would have won a championship there.

 

It's like Belichick-Brady, Walsh-Montana...   Great teams often have a good HC and a good QB.  It's hard to disentangle who contributes more.  

 

You also have to ask yourself, who coached the QB up to his optimal level?  Would Montana, for example, have ever achieved at such a high level without Walsh and his assistants coaching him up?  Would Mahomes be this dominant if he started in the NFL with a different coaching staff and a different system?  

[Einstein]

18 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

It's like Belichick-Brady, Walsh-Montana...   Great teams often have a good HC and a good QB.  It's hard to disentangle who contributes more.  

 

Discerning the critical contributor between a quarterback and a coach isn't as complex as it may seem. Consider Belichick's experience - he spent half a decade as a head coach without significant success until Brady joined his team, leading him to multiple Super Bowl victories. Similarly, Reid had a coaching career spanning two separate decades, with two separate teams, before Mahomes came onboard and won him two Super Bowls. Bill Walsh's was fortunate in that his first year as a head coach was Joe Montanas first year as a player. However, Montana proved who the real winner was when he won a Super Bowl with George Seifert after Walsh retired.

 

It's the QB. It is always the QB. 

 

That's not to say that coaches are unimportant. Where the head coach comes into play is in the minutiae of decision making during critical plays and playoff games.

[Beck Water]

On 6/17/2023 at 1:43 PM, Dr.Sack said:

This is the guy who exposed himself on zoom to his coworkers.

 

Wait, WHAT?  Florio did that?  More than one media guy has done that recently?

[Einstein]

22 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Wait, WHAT?  Florio did that? 

 

I follow Florio pretty avidly and I don't ever recall Florio doing that. I believe the poster is mistaken.

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

Don't underestimate Reid.  I remember thinking Philly made a huge mistake when they fired him and I certainly think there's a chance he would have won a championship there.

 

That's a really good question.  I'm not sure.  I think it comes down to "all the moving parts have to align".  See, Reid had personnel authority over the GM in Philly.  And I don't know if he was good enough at that.

 

So a bit of context, in 2008 Reid. McNabb and Philly went to the Conf championship with a record of 9-6 and lost.  It was one of McNabb's best seasons.  2009 they had drafted LeSean McCoy and were starting to figure out how to use him.  McNabb had another very good season, the Eagles improved to 11-5, and they washed out in the WC round (bad loss to the Cowboys).

 

Then, the Eagles decided to move on from McNabb and traded him to Washington.  They had drafted Kolb in the 2007 2nd, he was publicly restive, McNabb was 34.  Sell high made sense - but also didn't make sense given where the Eagles were.  So Kolb was tackled and concussed in the season opener, leaving .....30 year old Michael "I'm now kind to doggies and take them to Petsmart training classes" Vick, who remained the starter for the next 3 seasons.

 

And I don't think that version of Vick was good enough to get a team to the Superbowl, even with an offense built around McCoy and the running game.

 

There were some other puzzling moves, such as firing Sean McDermott after another WC exit in 2010 and a disappointing defensive performance and replacing him with offensive line coach Juan Castillo.  Yeah, you read that right.   One point of view was, McDermott was a scapegoat, but the defense did actually rank better under Castillo.  Still Castillo was replaced midway through a losing 2012 season and Reid was fired after the season.

It was also a time of personal tragedy for the Reids.  Their two eldest sons had been dealing with addiction since 2002.  Their eldest son Garrett went to prison for drug charges in 2007, then OD'd and died during Eagles training camp in 2012.  Britt Reid was also jailed in 2007 for drug and gun charges (menacing another driver. 

 

Anyway, I think Reid at that time had no checks and balances at all, in the building - which is why he could keep Vick as the starting QB for 4 years with his only attempt to replace him, Nick Foles in the 3rd; why he could name an OL coach as DC; etc etc.

 

So I don't know if he would have won a championship there.  He had football wounds, and they were largely self inflicted through personnel and coaching decisions.  He also had personal wounds.  The 2012 season had to have been particularly rough.

[hondo in seattle]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Discerning the critical contributor between a quarterback and a coach isn't as complex as it may seem. Consider Belichick's experience - he spent half a decade as a head coach without significant success until Brady joined his team, leading him to multiple Super Bowl victories. Similarly, Reid had a coaching career spanning two separate decades, with two separate teams, before Mahomes came onboard and won him two Super Bowls. Bill Walsh's was fortunate in that his first year as a head coach was Joe Montanas first year as a player. However, Montana proved who the real winner was when he won a Super Bowl with George Seifert after Walsh retired.

 

It's the QB. It is always the QB. 

 

That's not to say that coaches are unimportant. Where the head coach comes into play is in the minutiae of decision making during critical plays and playoff games.

 

I appreciate the intelligent response, but I remain unconvinced.  I know in my own current line of work that certain 'players' flourish under some leaders but not under others.  The 'coach' matters.  I saw this in the military as well.

 

Brady won a SB post-Belichick.  Montana won a SB post-Walsh.  But here's the thing: the QB position is cerebral.  The better you understand your own scheme and the opponent's scheme - and the faster you can process the action on the field through the lens of that understanding - the more you succeed.  I think it's very likely that Belichick and Walsh helped Brady and Montana achieve their greatness.  Their coaches taught them the nuances of the game, how to prepare, how to diagnose a defense, and so on.  

 

There's a Buddhist saying: once you cross the river, you don't need the raft anymore.  Once Brady and Montana mastered their craft, they didn't need Bill or Bill anymore.  But I'm not convinced they would have attained their stratospheric heights without HC masters mentoring them when they were starting out.  

 

Mining Bills history a bit...  How successful would Jim Kelly have been with Hank Bullough as his head coach?  Or Josh Allen with Harvey Johnson?   

 

Would Dennis Shaw have enjoyed a better career if he has started out with someone like Sean Payton instead of John Rauch?  

 

 

[Einstein]

40 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 I think it's very likely that Belichick and Walsh helped Brady and Montana achieve their greatness.  Their coaches taught them the nuances of the game, how to prepare, how to diagnose a defense, and so on.  

 

Then the question becomes: Why was Andy Reid unable to teach McNabb or Smith the nuances of the game well enough to win a Super Bowl? Why was Belichick not able to teach Bledsoe or Kosar the nuances of the game well enough to win a Super Bowl?

 

It’s the QB.

 

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Then the question becomes: Why was Andy Reid unable to teach McNabb or Smith the nuances of the game well enough to win a Super Bowl? Why was Belichick not able to teach Bledsoe or Kosar the nuances of the game well enough to win a Super Bowl?

 

It’s the QB.

 

 

It takes two to tango.

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Then the question becomes: Why was Andy Reid unable to teach McNabb or Smith the nuances of the game well enough to win a Super Bowl? Why was Belichick not able to teach Bledsoe or Kosar the nuances of the game well enough to win a Super Bowl?

 

It’s the QB.

 

Yes because Trent differ and Jeff hoestwttler are the best ever 

 

it’s never people around them lol

Mcnabb is infinitely better than both 
 

 

[Billy Claude]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Then the question becomes: Why was Andy Reid unable to teach McNabb or Smith the nuances of the game well enough to win a Super Bowl? Why was Belichick not able to teach Bledsoe or Kosar the nuances of the game well enough to win a Super Bowl?

 

It’s the QB.

 

 

This is reaching the point of chariacature.  Are we not remembering that Nick Foles and a completely washed Peyton Manning have won Super Bowls?  That Jimmy Garofolo, Colin Kaepernick and Jared Goff has started recent Super Bowls? Not to mention some good but not great QBs like Eli Manning, Joe Flacco, and Matthew Stafford have all won Super Bowls recently.

 

The belief that it is all the QB is insulting to rest of the players and staff on those teams.   You often make good points but then always take it to absurd limits. Your arguments will be much more effective if don't religiously adhere to your flow chart. There has rarely been worse cases of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

 

 

On 6/15/2023 at 6:28 PM, Einstein said:

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Billy Claude

[Einstein]

8 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

Are we not remembering that Nick Foles and a completely washed Peyton Manning have won Super Bowls? 

 

Learn more here.

 

8 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

That Jimmy Garofolo, Colin Kaepernick and Jared Goff has started recent Super Bowls? 

 

They all lost.

 

 

[Tipster19]

McDermott and Beane’s extensions should really piss off Florio, he’s already writing about it, crawfishing like a mofo! 🤣🤣🤣

[Punching Bag]

7 minutes ago, Tipster19 said:

McDermott and Beane’s extensions should really piss off Florio, he’s already writing about it, crawfishing like a mofo! 🤣🤣🤣

 

He will not notice it based on stains already on pants.

[JohnNord]

On 6/15/2023 at 2:55 PM, Aussie Joe said:

He loves to stroke something …not sure it’s the fire..

A sausage?

[Punching Bag]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:35 PM, Beck Water said:

 

That's a really good question.  I'm not sure.  I think it comes down to "all the moving parts have to align".  See, Reid had personnel authority over the GM in Philly.  And I don't know if he was good enough at that.

 

 

Reid reminds me of Beli-CHEAT - both are poor at being a GM.

[Doc Brown]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:25 PM, Tipster19 said:

McDermott and Beane’s extensions should really piss off Florio, he’s already writing about it, crawfishing like a mofo! 🤣🤣🤣

Diggs might have to get a restraining order at this point.