Stadium Construction Discussion (No PSL/Seat selection posts)

[K-9]

17 minutes ago, mrags said:

Pretty sure after like 10 years it’s significantly less than the $850m payback. Which imo is absolutely nothing to some rich billionaire owner. Who will likely be getting a free stadium in a new city like Austin 

 

5 minutes ago, Einstein said:

If someone purchased the team RIGHT NOW, for the fair market value, it would only cost about ~20% more to leave. 

Twenty percent more, to leave us with a hole in the ground and an bunch of metal and concrete. 

After 15 years, the penalty to relocate reduces annually. 

Apparently, it’s not just a question of paying back the money as there are other stipulations. I’ll get around to reading the entire relocation clause eventually, but this article in the news a few weeks ago is a good outline.

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/language-in-bills-stadium-deal-makes-relocation-unlikely-for-30-years-but-not-impossible/article_89ba2bec-ce4f-11ed-9c9b-976c2e6b1613.html

[mrags]

Just now, K-9 said:

 

Apparently, it’s not just a question of paying back the money as there are other stipulations. I’ll get around to reading the entire relocation clause eventually, but this article in the news a few weeks ago is a good outline.

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/language-in-bills-stadium-deal-makes-relocation-unlikely-for-30-years-but-not-impossible/article_89ba2bec-ce4f-11ed-9c9b-976c2e6b1613.html

I don’t pay for the news so it’s blocked to me. But I’m not saying it’s likely, I’m saying it’s possible which it seems they are agreeing with. I just think within 15-20 years some city will blow the new owners away with an offer they can’t refuse. And when I say new owners, I fully believe the Pegulas won’t be in the picture anymore as they are already open to selling portions away now. It will o my get worse in years to come. JMO. 

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

I don’t pay for the news so it’s blocked to me. But I’m not saying it’s likely, I’m saying it’s possible which it seems they are agreeing with. I just think within 15-20 years some city will blow the new owners away with an offer they can’t refuse. And when I say new owners, I fully believe the Pegulas won’t be in the picture anymore as they are already open to selling portions away now. It will o my get worse in years to come. JMO. 

There were two stipulations that I found interesting: 

 

1.) Any lawsuit brought relating to relocation must be adjudicated in Erie County. I know I wouldn’t want to be the judge that found in favor of relocation. 
 

2.) Any owner, the Pegulas or somebody else, must also pay for the cost of the demolition of the stadium. Not exactly a low cost exercise. 
 

But you’re right in that ultimately money talks. 

[Einstein]

10 minutes ago, K-9 said:

 

Apparently, it’s not just a question of paying back the money as there are other stipulations. I’ll get around to reading the entire relocation clause eventually, but this article in the news a few weeks ago is a good outline.

 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/language-in-bills-stadium-deal-makes-relocation-unlikely-for-30-years-but-not-impossible/article_89ba2bec-ce4f-11ed-9c9b-976c2e6b1613.html

 

I’ve read the entire lease agreement top to bottom. I recommend that everyone does.

 

It IS just a question of paying back the money. The Buffalo News is funded by PSE and puts out puff pieces like you listed all the time. The goal is to convince the public of what they want - in this case, that the lease is ironclad. It’s not.

 

The theory that the Bills (and NYS) attempted to float is that NYS could sue the Bills to stay. Except, no court in recent history has ever stopped a team from moving. And multiple cities have tried.

 

“If the goal here is to keep the Bills in Buffalo long term, then [the lease] absolutely should have an extremely stringent requirement [to stay]… It’s weak to me.” - J.C. Bradbury, an economics professor at Kenneshaw State University who has studied stadium deals.

 

The demolition talk is ridiculous. The State/County has no desire to demolish a stadium less than 30 years old. They would move UB there before that happened.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

I’ve read the entire lease agreement top to bottom. I recommend that everyone does.

 

It IS just a question of paying back the money. The Buffalo News is funded by PSE and puts out puff pieces like you listed all the time. The goal is to convince the public of what they want - in this case, that the lease is ironclad. It’s not.

 

The theory that the Bills (and NYS) attempted to float is that NYS could sue the Bills to stay. Except, no court in recent history has ever stopped a team from moving. And multiple cities have tried.

 

“If the goal here is to keep the Bills in Buffalo long term, then [the lease] absolutely should have an extremely stringent requirement [to stay]… It’s weak to me.” - J.C. Bradbury, an economics professor at Kenneshaw State University who has studied stadium deals.

Is Bradbury commenting only on the dollars involved and the fact that they start to decline after year 15? I ask because the cost of demolishing the stadium also needs to be factored and added to that dollar value. 
 

But yeah, there’s no such thing as ironclad; only varying degrees of difficulty.

[Einstein]

Just now, K-9 said:

Is Bradbury commenting only on the dollars involved and the fact that they start to decline after year 15? I ask because the cost of demolishing the stadium also needs to be factored and added to that dollar value. 
 

But yeah, there’s no such thing as ironclad; only varying degrees of difficulty.

 

The demolition idea is a bit ridiculous. Say a new owner wanted to move the team in 15 years - The State/County would NOT demolish a 15 year old stadium. They would move UB there before that happened.

 

It’s one of those “this sounds good but isn’t of any real benefit” type clauses.

 

 

[Gregg]

23 minutes ago, mrags said:

I don’t pay for the news so it’s blocked to me. But I’m not saying it’s likely, I’m saying it’s possible which it seems they are agreeing with. I just think within 15-20 years some city will blow the new owners away with an offer they can’t refuse. And when I say new owners, I fully believe the Pegulas won’t be in the picture anymore as they are already open to selling portions away now. It will o my get worse in years to come. JMO. 

 

Then you can say that about any team in league. Jacksonville for sure as they play a home game every year in London. With the new stadium on the way I am not going to worry about what might happen 15-20 years from now. I could be taking a dirt nap for all I know in 15-20 years. 

[mrags]

Just now, Gregg said:

 

Then you can say that about any team in league. Jacksonville for sure as they play a home game every year in London. With the new stadium on the way I am not going to worry about what might happen 15-20 years from now. I could be taking a dirt nap for all I know in 15-20 years. 

Never said it couldn’t affect any other team. I’m just giving my opinion of what will happen here. Buffalo is not long for the NFL imo. 

[K-9]

19 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

The demolition idea is a bit ridiculous. Say a new owner wanted to move the team in 15 years - The State/County would NOT demolish a 15 year old stadium. They would move UB there before that happened.

 

It’s one of those “this sounds good but isn’t of any real benefit” type clauses.

 

 

I agree that the demolition clause is absurd, but it’s in there none the less. Same with the clause pertaining to Erie county being the only venue allowed for adjudication. At the very least, it’s a speed bump that will cost potential litigants time and money to appeal if it ever comes to that. Like I said earlier, nothing is ever ironclad, but the roadblocks have to be navigated. 
 

My memory of past lawsuits regarding NFL team relocations may be a bit foggy, but if I recall, most of them reached settlement agreements before the courts decided one way or the other (Colts, Browns, Rams). Oakland is the only one I recall that was decided by the courts and, ironically, they weren’t seeking to prevent the move itself, they only wanted monetary compensation. Personally, I think their case was weak as they cited antitrust violations by the NFL and the Raiders. Imo, it had little chance given some of the antitrust exemptions the league enjoys. 

[Draconator]

 

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, Draconator said:

 

Still 20x better than what we’re getting. 

[PromoTheRobot]

9 minutes ago, mrags said:

Still 20x better than what we’re getting. 

 

If Chicago ends up costing less that $2B I will have questions.

[Mike in Horseheads]

On 4/24/2024 at 4:51 PM, mrags said:

Never said it couldn’t affect any other team. I’m just giving my opinion of what will happen here. Buffalo is not long for the NFL imo. 

Ya forgot to end that with go Bills! and Go Buffalo!  If your going to make BSF comments at least get it rght

[mrags]

48 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

If Chicago ends up costing less that $2B I will have questions.

Pretty sure that’s not gonna happen. But they are getting significantly more for their money. They are also getting parks and congregating areas included. Look like they are creating an outdoor space that would put the Buffalo Harbor area to shame included in the deal. Looked like lots of public parks and ball parks for the public as well. 

[stevewin]

On 4/19/2024 at 10:11 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Can’t wait for it to finish. It’s going to be a great stadium.

Highmark actually looks damn good in that video

[Einstein]

Here is the scale model of the seating. You can see how steep it is in the upper levels.

 

 

Also shows how the roof covers a larger portion of seats than the renderings imply.

 

The 100 level seats appear to be the worst in the stadium in my opinion.

[QCity]

32 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Here is the scale model of the seating. You can see how steep it is in the upper levels.

 

 

Also shows how the roof covers a larger portion of seats than the renderings imply.

 

The 100 level seats appear to be the worst in the stadium in my opinion.

 

Really looks like there's coverage for everything save the 100 level (depending if you are on the leeward or windward side).

[LeGOATski]

On 4/25/2024 at 3:54 PM, mrags said:

Pretty sure that’s not gonna happen. But they are getting significantly more for their money. They are also getting parks and congregating areas included. Look like they are creating an outdoor space that would put the Buffalo Harbor area to shame included in the deal. Looked like lots of public parks and ball parks for the public as well. 

3rd largest city in the country vs....78th. Go ahead and compare all the other entertainment areas and public spaces between these two cities while you're at it. 😬

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

Here is the scale model of the seating. You can see how steep it is in the upper levels.

 

 

Also shows how the roof covers a larger portion of seats than the renderings imply.

 

The 100 level seats appear to be the worst in the stadium in my opinion.

It's a great design. That place is gonna be rockin on Sundays. 

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Rendering of a proposed new Chiefs stadium, built in Kansas, is leaked. Oh look, it's a dome. 🤔

[Gregg]

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Rendering of a proposed new Chiefs stadium, built in Kansas, is leaked. Oh look, it's a dome. 🤔

 

That Chiefs - Dolphins playoff game last year played in temps that were 10 below zero. I can understand a dome. KC doesn't have the reputation for bad late season weather that Buffalo does but they do get their share of crappy weather. Why the Bills won't have a dome is nuts.

[PromoTheRobot]

7 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

That Chiefs - Dolphins playoff game last year played in temps that were 10 below zero. I can understand a dome. KC doesn't have the reputation for bad late season weather that Buffalo does but they do get their share of crappy weather. Why the Bills won't have a dome is nuts.

 

I swear the Bills will eventually end up the only NFL team that plays outdoors.

Edited Wednesday at 01:31 PM by PromoTheRobot

[Gregg]

4 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I swear the Bills will eventually end up the only NFL team that plays outdoors.

 

Maybe although here in NJ the Jets and Giants didn't want a dome for MetLife.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

 

Maybe although here in NJ the Jets and Giants didn't want a dome for MetLife.

 

Wait till the day they decide to build a new one.

[Gregg]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Wait till the day they decide to build a new one.

 

MetLife opened in 2008 or 2009. It's not that old so I don't see a new stadium being built anytime soon.

[PromoTheRobot]

17 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

MetLife opened in 2008 or 2009. It's not that old so I don't see a new stadium being built anytime soon.

 

The average NFL stadium life span is now around 20 years. 

 

https://venuesnow.com/the-shrinking-nfl-stadium-lifespan/#:~:text=The standard lifespan of an,Soldier Field%2C completed in 2003.

 

[Gregg]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

 

The average NFL stadium life span is now around 20 years. 

 

https://venuesnow.com/the-shrinking-nfl-stadium-lifespan/#:~:text=The standard lifespan of an,Soldier Field%2C completed in 2003.

 

 

I didn't know that. Yet our stadium is 51 and counting.

[SirAndrew]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I swear the Bills will eventually end up the only NFL team that plays outdoors.

Buffalo has a reputation for bad winter weather, but the NFL keeps expanding the season. The season goes so late into winter that almost everywhere has a greater potential of being impacted by extreme winter weather. There’s a huge difference between December and late January/February. 

[UConn James]

36 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Wait till the day they decide to build a new one.

Possible to retrofit? They've done that at all of the majors / Slam tennis tournaments, including Ashe and BJK in NYC. The bowl rim of football stadium obviously is larger but I’m sure it could be engineered.

 

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I swear the Bills will eventually end up the only NFL team that plays outdoors.

 

The only one north of the Mason-Dixon Line anyway.
 

2 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

That Chiefs - Dolphins playoff game last year played in temps that were 10 below zero. I can understand a dome. KC doesn't have the reputation for bad late season weather that Buffalo does but they do get their share of crappy weather. Why the Bills won't have a dome is nuts.

Seeing how the league office has been chomping for 18 games and home games well into February for awhile now, it was beyond stupid for us to stay open air or to at least not do a retractable roof. Climate change is only making weather more and more to the extremes & unpredictable. Probably 50% of our future February games are going to have to be played in Detroit.

[Gregg]

1 minute ago, UConn James said:

Possible to retrofit? They've done that at all of the majors / Slam tennis tournaments, including Ashe and BJK in NYC. The bowl rim of football stadium obviously is larger but I’m sure it could be engineered.

 

 

The only one north of the Mason-Dixon Line anyway.
 

Seeing how the league office has been chomping for 18 games and home games well into February for awhile now, it was beyond stupid for us to stay open air or to at least not do a retractable roof. Climate change is only making weather more and more to the extremes & unpredictable. Probably 50% of our future February games are going to have to be played in Detroit.

 

Don't forget about last year's playoff game vs the Steelers which was moved to Monday afternoon. I agree 100% either have a retractable roof or dome. 

[Robert Paulson]

On 4/25/2024 at 4:47 PM, Draconator said:

 

our stadium is a clone of Tottenham Hotspurs stadium in London. saves money and the kinks are worked out already. 

[SoMAn]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:13 AM, QCity said:

 

Really looks like there's coverage for everything save the 100 level (depending if you are on the leeward or windward side).

Sure, if the rain is a nice consistent spring rain that falls perfectly vertical.  The cover won't be much good if it's one of those cold, windy, rainy days and the wind is blowing in your direction.

[Draconator]

1 hour ago, SoMAn said:

Sure, if the rain is a nice consistent spring rain that falls perfectly vertical.  The cover won't be much good if it's one of those cold, windy, rainy days and the wind is blowing in your direction.

No open spaces in this stadium except for the roof. So that argument doesn't work. 

[RiotAct]

54 minutes ago, Draconator said:

No open spaces in this stadium except for the roof. So that argument doesn't work. 

well yeah, that’s kind of the thing…

[SoCal Deek]

4 hours ago, Robert Paulson said:

our stadium is a clone of Tottenham Hotspurs stadium in London. saves money and the kinks are worked out already. 

It saves money on what exactly? 

[Robert Paulson]

9 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

It saves money on what exactly? 

Design, engineering mostly. You are not reinventing the wheel and any gliches from the first build are corrected.  

 

Terry has to pinch pennies somewhere until he can offload the Sabres. 

[SoCal Deek]

17 minutes ago, Robert Paulson said:

Design, engineering mostly. You are not reinventing the wheel and any gliches from the first build are corrected.  

 

Terry has to pinch pennies somewhere until he can offload the Sabres. 

That's an often assumed fantasy. On a project as unique as a stadium, there is virtually nothing saved on design and engineering. Trust me.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 hours ago, Draconator said:

No open spaces in this stadium except for the roof. So that argument doesn't work. 

I really can’t wait to experience the difference. Our current stadium couldn’t be designed worse for our climate. It’s like a wind tunnel. This will be very different. Hopefully the experience is more like MetLife stadium. Still some wind but not nearly as bad.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Only sorry losers want football to be played inside. The two most successful teams in the last two decades played outdoors.

You calling the players losers? It’s all about the players for me. I don’t care where they play. Players don’t want to play in Buffalo’s weather.

Edited Thursday at 12:03 AM by Buffalo_Stampede

[Jukester]

On 4/25/2024 at 5:02 PM, PromoTheRobot said:

 

If Chicago ends up costing less that $2B I will have questions.

Yeah not a chance. $4.75B, possibly up to $6.9B 

 

https://news.wttw.com/2024/04/29/new-chicago-bears-stadium-plans-met-mixed-reviews-analysts-question-true-cost-taxpayers#:~:text=The team said they're,is more like %246.9 billion.

[Draconator]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I really can’t wait to experience the difference. Our current stadium couldn’t be designed worse for our climate. It’s like a wind tunnel. This will be very different. Hopefully the experience is more like MetLife stadium. Still some wind but not nearly as bad.

Remember, the design for the current stadium called for the 300's to face the lake. The cemetery on the stadium site needed to be moved. The family that owned the cemetery did not give permission for the cemetery to be moved, so Highmark had to have the open end facing the lake.