Tyreke Hill vs. Ja'Marr Chase vs Justin Jefferson - Contract management

[Chaos]

The Chiefs who just won the Super Bowl made the decision that optimizing team talent, meant relying on their superstar QB to generate the passing attack and not rely on a 20+million dollar WR Tyreke Hill. Results suggested they made the correct decision.  Do you think the Bengals will make the same decision when the time comes with Ja'Marr Chase, or will they accept other holes in the roster to pay Chase.  Similarly, will the Vikings without a superstar QB make a different or the same decision as the Bengals regarding Justin Jefferson. 

In general, Is the goal of the draft to get as many five year players who can contribute as possible, or draft guys with potential to sit and watch, and hopefully develop so that you can resign them at full top market free agent rates after five years?

[Low Positive]

5 minutes ago, Chaos said:

The Chiefs who just won the Super Bowl made the decision that optimizing team talent, meant relying on their superstar QB to generate the passing attack and not rely on a 20+million dollar WR Tyreke Hill. Results suggested they made the correct decision.  Do you think the Bengals will make the same decision when the time comes with Ja'Marr Chase, or will they accept other holes in the roster to pay Chase.  Similarly, will the Vikings without a superstar QB make a different or the same decision as the Bengals regarding Justin Jefferson. 

In general, Is the goal of the draft to get as many five year players who can contribute as possible, or draft guys with potential to sit and watch, and hopefully develop so that you can resign them at full top market free agent rates after five years?

The Chiefs still have their #1 pass catcher.

[Chaos]

9 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

The Chiefs still have their #1 pass catcher.

And his aav contract value is 14.5 million. Good deal for the chiefs.  But not the budget busting decision guy. 

[PrimeTime101]

16 minutes ago, Chaos said:

The Chiefs who just won the Super Bowl made the decision that optimizing team talent, meant relying on their superstar QB to generate the passing attack and not rely on a 20+million dollar WR Tyreke Hill. Results suggested they made the correct decision.  Do you think the Bengals will make the same decision when the time comes with Ja'Marr Chase, or will they accept other holes in the roster to pay Chase.  Similarly, will the Vikings without a superstar QB make a different or the same decision as the Bengals regarding Justin Jefferson. 

In general, Is the goal of the draft to get as many five year players who can contribute as possible, or draft guys with potential to sit and watch, and hopefully develop so that you can resign them at full top market free agent rates after five years?

would this be the case if KC did not have a dude named Kelce? 

[Chaos]

8 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

would this be the case if KC did not have a dude named Kelce? 

I don't know

[PrimeTime101]

Just now, Chaos said:

I don't know

That is a fair answer though I think most would say no way in heck.  

cheers

[Billl]

The fact that KC had already banked a Super Bowl in 2019 gave them the capital to risk taking a temporary step back by trading Hill in order to invest in the long term with the picks they acquired.  Given that these teams have never won one, I doubt they’ll be able to do anything other than go all in every season until they either win a championship or crash and burn.  

 

Then again, it’s possible that the Vikings are self-aware enough to realize that they’re nowhere near good enough to truly contend.  If that’s the case, I could see them tearing it down to the studs and moving JJ for a massive haul.

[papazoid]

#1- KC didnt win this SB because they got rid of Tyreek hill. they would have won it with him. Besides, he's not their #1 target, kelce is.

Tyreek cap hit with miami for 2022 was $6.5 mil and will be $12.8 for 2024 both bargains. long term starting in 2025 is another story.

the other KC WR's shuster & scantling were mediocre. what KC shows is the value of investing in the Oline & TE.

 

#2- Minny should absolutely pay top $ for jeffereson no matter who the QB is. he is elite top 5. i'd tag him.

 

#3- cincy has an interesting dilema. they have 3 really good WR's. you probably can only afford to keep 2. i'd let whoever demands the most $ go/trade if possible. again, 5th year option then tag.

 

the goal of the draft should be instant starter and pro bowl talent. worry about the second contract later.

[78thealltimegreat]

Much like Brady was with Gronk. They kept Kelce and rebuilt the oline and built ok receiver talent around that.

There really isn’t a wrong answer just a philosophical difference in how you build a team. 
 

[aristocrat]

He was the highest paid wr in the league at the time of his chiefs contract wasnt he?

[Chaos]

Just now, aristocrat said:

He was the highest paid wr in the league at the time of his chiefs contract wasnt he?

Before Mahomes full salary cap hit though. 

[Freddie's Dead]

Who is Tyreke Hill?

[Chaos]

9 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Who is Tyreke Hill?

Your superior spelling skills for strange names separates you from the other humans. Kudos. 

[BADOLBILZ]

54 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I don't know

 

You really don't know?   

 

Kelce has averaged 100 catches and nearly 1300 yards over the past 5 seasons.

 

One teams fortune in not having to pay top of the market for a superstar receiving target does not equate to the formula being not to pay a star. 

 

[DCofNC]

I can’t see Cincy or the Vikes letting Chase or Jefferson go, too good, young, near impossible to replicate what they do for the team.  Cincy could pull off a trade for Higgins rather than deal w the contract, which would ultimately be great for them, cost controlled, good player, 2nd round investment, trade for a 1. 

[Mikie2times]

If the question is do I think the Bengals can afford both Burrow and Chase, the answer is no. I touched on this in another thread. Brown is not a very wealthy owner. He won't be able to convert salary into bonus money like Terry can. Burrow will be the highest paid QB in football.  Chase could very well demand the same at WR. I see Higgins being more likely a guy that stays, but it will be very hard for the Bengals either way once Burrow signs his deal. 

Edited April 6, 2023 by KzooMike

[BillsFan130]

6 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

If the question is do I think Burrows the Bengals can afford both Burrows and Chase, the answer is no. I touched on this in another thread. Brown is not a very wealthy owner. He won't be able to convert salary into bonus money like Terry can. Burrows will be the highest paid QB in football.  Chase could very well demand the same at WR. I see Higgins being more likely a guy that stays, but it will be very hard for the Bengals either way once Burrows signs his deal. 

*Burrow * not *Burrows*.
 

Sorry for being a know it at all but had to correct that lol

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

*Burrow * not *Burrows*.
 

Sorry for being a know it at all but had to correct that lol

I'm from Michigan, we put an S at the end of everything

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, KzooMike said:

I'm from Michigan, we put an S at the end of everything

This thread is all about the spelling.

[90sBills]

Burrow’s elite qb status would take a huge hit if he loses either of the wr’s he can chuck up into double coverage and they come down with those jump balls. 

[BillsFan130]

8 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

I'm from Michigan, we put an S at the end of everything

For real? I actually didn’t know that 

[Mikie2times]

6 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

For real? I actually didn’t know that 

Well, mine was an actual typo, but yes it is true. We literally can't pronounce either Meijer or Kroger without adding an s at the end.   

[BillsFan130]

2 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

Well, mine was an actual typo, but yes it is true. We literally can't pronounce either Meijer or Kroger without adding an s at the end.   

Interesting to know. I’m showing off my ignorance as a Canadian then lol

[Mikie2times]

Just now, BillsFan130 said:

Interesting to know. I’m showing off my ignorance as a Canadian then lol

I didn't even know we did it until somebody pointed it out. I figured we got it from you guys 🤣

[Gugny]

Optimization. 
 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, Chaos said:

The Chiefs who just won the Super Bowl made the decision that optimizing team talent, meant relying on their superstar QB to generate the passing attack and not rely on a 20+million dollar WR Tyreke Hill. Results suggested they made the correct decision.  Do you think the Bengals will make the same decision when the time comes with Ja'Marr Chase, or will they accept other holes in the roster to pay Chase.  Similarly, will the Vikings without a superstar QB make a different or the same decision as the Bengals regarding Justin Jefferson. 

In general, Is the goal of the draft to get as many five year players who can contribute as possible, or draft guys with potential to sit and watch, and hopefully develop so that you can resign them at full top market free agent rates after five years?

Everyone not named the Chiefs needs to realize they aren’t the Chiefs.

 

This was the logic flaw that WGR kept pushing last year when they were so quick to recite the odds to everyone as proof. 
 

The Bills are not the Chiefs, neither are the Bengals, neither are the Jags, Ravens, Chargers or anyone else.

 

Nobody on any roster is as good as Patrick Mahomes.

 

As such, everyone else will have to accept the talent gap and create a different model that accumulates more roster talent than the Chiefs to overcome the gap at QB. 

 

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

44 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Everyone not named the Chiefs needs to realize they aren’t the Chiefs.

 

This was the logic flaw that WGR kept pushing last year when they were so quick to recite the odds to everyone as proof. 
 

The Bills are not the Chiefs, neither are the Bengals, neither are the Jags, Ravens, Chargers or anyone else.

 

Nobody on any roster is as good as Patrick Mahomes.

 

As such, everyone else will have to accept the talent gap and create a different model that accumulates more roster talent than the Chiefs to overcome the gap at QB. 

 

 

 

So tell me... if we flipped mahomes to this roster and Josh Allen to KC roster? what team would win? a Mahomes with Bills roster or a Allen with KC roster?

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

So tell me... if we flipped mahomes to this roster and Josh Allen to KC roster? what team would win? a Mahomes with Bills roster or a Allen with KC roster?

I have a feeling people on this board would feel a lot better about Davis/Knox if Mahomes is the Bills qb. He would do a lot of damage with Diggs/Davis/Knox receiving corp. 

[90sBills]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Everyone not named the Chiefs needs to realize they aren’t the Chiefs.

 

This was the logic flaw that WGR kept pushing last year when they were so quick to recite the odds to everyone as proof. 
 

The Bills are not the Chiefs, neither are the Bengals, neither are the Jags, Ravens, Chargers or anyone else.

 

Nobody on any roster is as good as Patrick Mahomes.

 

As such, everyone else will have to accept the talent gap and create a different model that accumulates more roster talent than the Chiefs to overcome the gap at QB. 

 

 

 

I completely agree with this take. KC has an advantage right now because their qb is ahead of everyone else’s. It doesn’t mean that gap can’t be closed at some point. But right now they’re operating with so much more flexibility. They lost 2 starting receivers and 2 starting tackles this offseason and no one bats an eye. They’ll just draft whoever at wr and watch them be productive because of Mahomes’ abilities and Reid’s creativity. 

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

So tell me... if we flipped mahomes to this roster and Josh Allen to KC roster? what team would win? a Mahomes with Bills roster or a Allen with KC roster?

 

 

It's pure opinion, of course, but I think they'd both have roughly equal chances. If forced to choose, I'd give Mahomes/Bills a better chance, but not a ton better.

 

 

2 hours ago, 90sBills said:

I have a feeling people on this board would feel a lot better about Davis/Knox if Mahomes is the Bills qb. He would do a lot of damage with Diggs/Davis/Knox receiving corp. 

 

 

Mahomes would indeed do a lot of damage with Diggs/Davis/Knox etc.

 

As did Allen last year with a throwing arm injury through a very significant portion of the season.

[Not at the table Karlos]

12 hours ago, Chaos said:

The Chiefs who just won the Super Bowl made the decision that optimizing team talent, meant relying on their superstar QB to generate the passing attack and not rely on a 20+million dollar WR Tyreke Hill. Results suggested they made the correct decision.  Do you think the Bengals will make the same decision when the time comes with Ja'Marr Chase, or will they accept other holes in the roster to pay Chase.  Similarly, will the Vikings without a superstar QB make a different or the same decision as the Bengals regarding Justin Jefferson. 

In general, Is the goal of the draft to get as many five year players who can contribute as possible, or draft guys with potential to sit and watch, and hopefully develop so that you can resign them at full top market free agent rates after five years?

They have a very good offensive play designer and caller who schemes guys open. Makes it a lot easier on Mahomes even though he would most likely be great in any system. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

7 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

So tell me... if we flipped mahomes to this roster and Josh Allen to KC roster? what team would win? a Mahomes with Bills roster or a Allen with KC roster?

It’s obvious the winning goes where Mahomes is.

 

Brady demonstrated this when he left New England. 
 

The winning goes where they go. 

[papazoid]

8 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

So tell me... if we flipped mahomes to this roster and Josh Allen to KC roster? what team would win? a Mahomes with Bills roster or a Allen with KC roster?

 

JOSH !! behind the KC Oline and with Kelce ......josh would win !! 

 

in the infamous 13 seconds game josh played his azz off, had mahomes beat (plus kc had tyreek in that one)

 

 C/ATT  YDS TD INT    RTG

Josh 27/37 - 329 yards  4td/0 int -136.0 passer rating

Mahomes - 33/44 - 378yards  3td/ 0 int 123.1 passer rating 

 

not his fault Frazier played soft and predictable....this is a team game

 

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by papazoid

[2003Contenders]

A few other thoughts...

 

1. The Chiefs' decision to part ways with Hill was partially $ based but team dynamics also played a role. Hill had become a head case and a major distraction to the team.

 

2. Reid is one of the all time great play callers in NFL history. I marvel when I watch Chiefs games and wonder "How are defenses allowing Kelce to get so wide open?" Some of that is due to the generational talent that Kelce is -- but a lot of it is also based on schemes to get him open.

 

3. Mahomes is great at buying time. Better, when he gets flushed from the pocket, there always seems to be a WR somewhere that has come back to bail him out.

 

I would love to see the Bills' receivers better coached up to provide Josh with multiple options when a play breaks down, like Reid's Chiefs WRs are.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Yeah sorry, Josh isn't as good as Mahomes. 

 

The Bills are not the Chiefs equals. 

 

Beane is going to have to draft superstars, or add more talent to propel a less coach, a less QB, past them and the Bengals now. 

 

 

[90sBills]

52 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

A few other thoughts...

 

1. The Chiefs' decision to part ways with Hill was partially $ based but team dynamics also played a role. Hill had become a head case and a major distraction to the team.

 

2. Reid is one of the all time great play callers in NFL history. I marvel when I watch Chiefs games and wonder "How are defenses allowing Kelce to get so wide open?" Some of that is due to the generational talent that Kelce is -- but a lot of it is also based on schemes to get him open.

 

3. Mahomes is great at buying time. Better, when he gets flushed from the pocket, there always seems to be a WR somewhere that has come back to bail him out.

 

I would love to see the Bills' receivers better coached up to provide Josh with multiple options when a play breaks down, like Reid's Chiefs WRs are.

#3 cannot be understated. Mahomes is a magician when it comes to buying time behind the line. He sees the whole field while running spinning around. Defenders start to lose their assignments or get drawn towards him leaving their guys wfo. Then he hits those receivers anywhere on the field in anyway he can. It’s crazy to watch. Something that I hope Allen can incorporate in his game to greater success. 

53 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah sorry, Josh isn't as good as Mahomes. 

 

The Bills are not the Chiefs equals. 

 

Beane is going to have to draft superstars, or add more talent to propel a less coach, a less QB, past them and the Bengals now. 

 

 

The first point is a bitter pill to swallow but it gets reinforced year after year.

 

Doesn’t mean Bills can’t win it all at some point. 

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, papazoid said:

 

JOSH !! behind the KC Oline and with Kelce ......josh would win !! 

 

in the infamous 13 seconds game josh played his azz off, had mahomes beat (plus kc had tyreek in that one)

 

 C/ATT  YDS TD INT    RTG

Josh 27/37 - 329 yards  4td/0 int -136.0 passer rating

Mahomes - 33/44 - 378yards  3td/ 0 int 123.1 passer rating 

 

not his fault Frazier played soft and predictable....this is a team game

 

 

while others think its so obvious MAhomes Bills would win over JA Chiefs... I am on board with you on this one.

[Utah John]

Josh can outplay Mahomes some of the time, but McDermott can never outcoach Reid.  The Mahomes/Reid combination is by far the best duo in the NFL.

[JerseyBills]

But KC still had their #1 guy in Kelce , drafted a WR in rd 1, traded for a WR for a 3rd and brought in Juju and MVS for a combined 21 mil last year

 

So to say they just let Tyreek go n surrounded Mahomes with nobodies is a joke

[BruceVilanch]

18 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

The Chiefs still have their #1 pass catcher.

Yeah, really easy to move off a WR when you have the arguably the best TE in NFL history.