Jim Johnson was McD’s mentor. Where’s his defense?

[BADOLBILZ]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Personally I disagree but I don't think it is an unreasonable view. Leslie's defense relies on confusion on the back end and I think the loss of Hyde, injury to Poyer and diminishment of White just restricted what he could do. I would rather the regime ride and die with what they have. Rather than a coordinator change where in a year's time we hear the "natural progression from year 2 in the system."

 

I think we are in a position with Frazier that is not unlike the last few years of Ben Roethlisberger career for Pittsburgh............when you can get a team to 11-0 like Ben did in 2020 it's hard to justify replacing him.    

 

But the proof was late in seasons.   He wasn't good at the end of seasons anymore.

 

The Bills have been thoroughly dissected in the playoffs defensively each of the last 3 seasons.

 

If you can't see 64 year old Leslie as the DC for another 3-4 year contract then I think you don't extend him a new deal as DC..........it's time to move on.

 

I'd also agree with Eric Eager that climbing the same hill to the same type of futile conclusion with the same people sometimes makes it necessary to make changes that don't necessarily reflect the competence of the departed.

 

Tampa had to move on from Dungy to get over the hump.    It was time for Andy Reid to leave Philly when he did and they've had 3 different winning HC's and a SB since.  

 

Those guys are HOF coaches who could not inspire confidence due to past postseason failures.............that, IMO, is very squarely where Frazier sits.

 

And if McD isn't proactive about it.........I think that he could be lumped in with Leslie next year when it happens again.........which we don't want to see, IMO. 

 

It's not an easy call but his contract is up...........IMO it's just time for Leslie to be replaced.  

[JMM]

4 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

As a HC who once had to strip playcalling duties away from his coordinator, I think it’s time to move on from Frazier and the nickel defense he runs even on the goal line. Seems like it plays more like Dungy’s Tampa 2 and less like Jim Johnson’s anyway.

This! We run a Tampa 2 for the most part. That requires a impact DT (Sapp), which we don't have. Ed teases. And a great rangy MLB. Again Maine has been a tease.  It's a passive D compared with others. I've never liked it. For us older fans it reminds me of the Walt Corey D's back in the glory days. 

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't disagree the Bills had brain freeze in that moment and blew it. That is beyond debate.

Right.  Just like both the offense and defense were completely out coached vs KC the previous season.  And the offense and defense getting completely out coached a week ago.  Yes, our D had their fair share of blown coverages last week, but the D played so far off the entire game. Looking at the game plan, I see coaching scared. Just like vs KC the previous 2 seasons.  Literally giving them 5-15 yards on every play.  I just can’t buy into it anymore.  I don’t believe in the process on D.  If our pass rush isn’t running rampant, the D is stale and has very few answers.  

[Aussie Joe]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think there was at times this year. But that was down to personnel available to do as much disguise as they like on the back end. 

 

As for adjustments.... the Bills do them well and did to a lesser extent even on Sunday. They are a second half defense and that is consistent over multiple years. 

 

The third and longs is primarily a result of a sub standard pass rush. 

 

In respect of the third and longs … yes that is a factor, but I also point to the secondary play …

 

With the adjustments … there are games you can point to every season where they have been dominated and blown out on the scoreboard …although this year we had to wait until the last game of the season… it doesn’t happen regularly but it happens …

 

“Letting it ride” is to me a risky strategy given what we have observed this season, although it appears that’s the path they are going down…

 

I think that should mean that MCD has tied his own fate to this ultimately succeeding along with Leslie’s..

 

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I think we are in a position with Frazier that is not unlike the last few years of Ben Roethlisberger career for Pittsburgh............when you can get a team to 11-0 like Ben did in 2020 it's hard to justify replacing him.    

 

But the proof was late in seasons.   He wasn't good at the end of seasons anymore.

 

The Bills have been thoroughly dissected in the playoffs defensively each of the last 3 seasons.

 

If you can't see 64 year old Leslie as the DC for another 3-4 year contract then I think you don't extend him a new deal as DC..........it's time to move on.

 

I'd also agree with Eric Eager that climbing the same hill to the same type of futile conclusion with the same people sometimes makes it necessary to make changes that don't necessarily reflect the competence of the departed.

 

Tampa had to move on from Dungy to get over the hump.    It was time for Andy Reid to leave Philly when he did and they've had 3 different winning HC's and a SB since.  

 

Those guys are HOF coaches who could not inspire confidence due to past postseason failures.............that, IMO, is very squarely where Frazier sits.

 

And if McD isn't proactive about it.........I think that he could be lumped in with Leslie next year when it happens again.........which we don't want to see, IMO. 

 

It's not an easy call but his contract is up...........IMO it's just time for Leslie to be replaced.  

Spot on, especially the bolded.  

[Einstein]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Tampa had to move on from Dungy to get over the hump.    It was time for Andy Reid to leave Philly when he did and they've had 3 different winning HC's and a SB since.  

 

Yeah I think a lot of people are afraid of a new coach because they fear they might be worse than what we have now. They could be, but they also could be better.

 

In addition to your examples of Dungy and Reid, the Patriots fired Pete Caroll who had a winning record and 3 playoff games with them... to hire Bill Belichick.

 

 

 

The 49ers also fired a multiple NFCCG and SB coach... and now they have one of the brightest minds in the game today who has had them in 3 of the last 4 NFC Championship games.

[Billever76]

22 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Yeah I think a lot of people are afraid of a new coach because they fear they might be worse than what we have now. They could be, but they also could be better.

 

In addition to your examples of Dungy and Reid, the Patriots fired Pete Caroll who had a winning record and 3 playoff games with them... to hire Bill Belichick.

 

 

 

The 49ers also fired a multiple NFCCG and SB coach... and now they have one of the brightest minds in the game today who has had them in 3 of the last 4 NFC Championship games.

We simply need a hc who understands the offense is more important than Defense side of the ball...you can fill out your offense with high round picks and a big fa vet signing and field an average defense and win the superbowl in today's NFL..you can't doing it the opposite way

Edited January 28, 2023 by Billever76

[BillsVet]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

And if McD isn't proactive about it.........I think that he could be lumped in with Leslie next year when it happens again.........which we don't want to see, IMO. 

 

It's not an easy call but his contract is up...........IMO it's just time for Leslie to be replaced.  

 

A mid-season swoon each of the past few years makes me wonder if what you say here is already happening.  

 

I gave McD credit for how he handled the Damar Hamlin situation, but how they've fared these last 2 playoffs and maybe even the HOU WC loss were not good looks for the HC or his DC.  

 

Agree that some things are going stale and need to be refreshed. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Billever76 said:

What was the excuses for the other years?

 

It has to be better.

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Right.  Just like both the offense and defense were completely out coached vs KC the previous season.  And the offense and defense getting completely out coached a week ago.  Yes, our D had their fair share of blown coverages last week, but the D played so far off the entire game. Looking at the game plan, I see coaching scared. Just like vs KC the previous 2 seasons.  Literally giving them 5-15 yards on every play.  I just can’t buy into it anymore.  I don’t believe in the process on D.  If our pass rush isn’t running rampant, the D is stale and has very few answers.  

 

I don't blame people for losing faith. But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

[Billever76]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It has to be better.

 

I don't blame people for losing faith. But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

I can say all 50 of those games dont add up as important as those 3 games...superbowl windows and franchise qbs have a limited shelf life...either you grasp that opportunity and sieze it or let it slip through your hands and wonder what could have been.....

[Thrivefourfive]

4 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Why are we acting like the defense is bad?

 

A practice squad safety, 1 arm and 1 legged safety, clearly not back Tre White, 4th string DT, practice squad DE and practice squad DT all played high amounts of snaps vs Bengals. 

Because we are what we are. Injuries happen. Awful coaching and awful playing is the controllable substance that defines this “bad” defense in these playoffs, and last years playoff against KC, and the year before’s playoffs.

[Billever76]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It has to be better.

 

I don't blame people for losing faith. But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

I'd also argue and say an average defense can perform as good as our 3 playoff losses and if we invested into the offense like we have the defense most likely 1 of those losses is turned into a win

[Einstein]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

 

Those 3 games are worth more than the 50 games.

 

Belichick isnt considered the greatest coach of all time because he won a bunch of regular season games. Its those hands covered in diamond studded SB rings that did that.

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

I can say all 50 of those games dont add up as important as those 3 games...

 

You can say that. It isn't a crazy view. I just don't agree.

27 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

I'd also argue and say an average defense can perform as good as our 3 playoff losses and if we invested into the offense like we have the defense most likely 1 of those losses is turned into a win

 

This I don't disagree with. The Bills have over invested in defense. I have been on that train for a while. And for all the clamour about defensive failures in our season ending games... only once (2021) has the offense genuinely held up its part of the bargain. There is serious investment needed there. 

21 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Those 3 games are worth more than the 50 games.

 

Belichick isnt considered the greatest coach of all time because he won a bunch of regular season games. Its those hands covered in diamond studded SB rings that did that.

 

Too much randomness in sample size. Especially as you are talking games against elite QBs. You can't expect the D to shut those down multiple times. Maybe 1 time in 3 it should have... but that is about the realistic ratio.

 

It is why I also am not absolving our O of blame. In the last 4 playoff exits they have underperformed 3 times. In the modern NFL it is harder to play great defense than great offense. For a great regular season offense to go under season average 3 of 4 season ending playoff games is not good enough.

Edited January 28, 2023 by GunnerBill

[BBills_88]

2 hours ago, vincec said:

I think they started off that way but they have gotten less and less aggressive each year. It seems like a conscious change in concept.

Yeah, that sucks. 

[NewEra]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It has to be better.

 

I don't blame people for losing faith. But I can't place 3 games over and above 50 odd games cos of the way it has ended. To me that is bad analysis.

 

Timing has a lot to do with it.  Coming up big when it counts.  When it matters most.  Our playoff wins are against teams we were clearly better then.  Facing teams that were underdogs against or on a level playing field-  this defense is 0-4   Come up big just once in 4 years…… that’s isn’t too much to ask.  
 

Leslie Frazier has been a DC for 14 years and has made 1 championship game.  Prior to joining Buffalo, his passing defenses finished inside the top 10 1 time, when they were 9th.  
 

In 8 seasons he was in the top half of the league 2 times, when they did Uber 9th and 13th.  Always in the bottom half in interceptions.

 

in 8 seasons he was inside of the top 10, never.  He finished 10th once.  28th, 21th, 12th, 13th, 10th, 18th, 25th and 26th.  
 

his results in Buffalo, coaching under a defensive HC on a team that has devoted the majority of its assets to his defense, has been much better.  Until he gets brutally exposed in our finale.  I just can’t overlook how truly terrible our D has been in the last 3 season ending losses.  I don’t believe our coordinators have put our players in position to win the game (minus Daboll vs KC last year).  Our d has been embarrassed and no one is held accountable.  Like Mixon said, we ain’t Baltimore.  
 

I don’t think Frazier is a bad DC.  I think he’s a very good coach.  I just don’t think he’s a championship caliber coach and some of the players might be second guessing him.   I don’t think he’s capable of stifling a championship caliber team in the playoffs.  I think McD could be a championship coach, but he’s hitched his wagon to Frazier which could lead to next year being his last chance to accomplish his end goal as a Bill.  

[NewEra]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You can say that. It isn't a crazy view. I just don't agree.

I think the 50 games should be filtered and sorted by top 10 offenses. We’ve had some good showings on D, but it’s not representative of our league rank imo.  Playing the jets, fins and pats offenses x2 also helps.  
 

our d just hasn’t impressed me unless we’re close to 💯 healthy.  I feel like it relies on great play and execution more than most great defenses.  Our league rank says we’re a great d.  My eyes haven’t seen a great bills d since Frazier has been here.  A couple very good D’s.  

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Timing has a lot to do with it.  Coming up big when it counts.  When it matters most.  Our playoff wins are against teams we were clearly better then.  Facing teams that were underdogs against or on a level playing field-  this defense is 0-4   Come up big just once in 4 years…… that’s isn’t too much to ask.  
 

Leslie Frazier has been a DC for 14 years and has made 1 championship game.  Prior to joining Buffalo, his passing defenses finished inside the top 10 1 time, when they were 9th.  
 

In 8 seasons he was in the top half of the league 2 times, when they did Uber 9th and 13th.  Always in the bottom half in interceptions.

 

in 8 seasons he was inside of the top 10, never.  He finished 10th once.  28th, 21th, 12th, 13th, 10th, 18th, 25th and 26th.  
 

his results in Buffalo, coaching under a defensive HC on a team that has devoted the majority of its assets to his defense, has been much better.  Until he gets brutally exposed in our finale.  I just can’t overlook how truly terrible our D has been in the last 3 season ending losses.  I don’t believe our coordinators have put our players in position to win the game (minus Daboll vs KC last year).  Our d has been embarrassed and no one is held accountable.  Like Mixon said, we ain’t Baltimore.  
 

I don’t think Frazier is a bad DC.  I think he’s a very good coach.  I just don’t think he’s a championship caliber coach and some of the players might be second guessing him.   I don’t think he’s capable of stifling a championship caliber team in the playoffs.  I think McD could be a championship coach, but he’s hitched his wagon to Frazier which could lead to next year being his last chance to accomplish his end goal as a Bill.  

 

Nah. It is over analysis of a defense that has played well for the most part (though I agree has generally under performed in the tough moments in the playoffs) with the purpose of defending an offense that has underperformed 3 out of 4 times too. The Bills just have to be better all around in those big spots. Over focus on Frazier given that is unfair. Personally I see them as the Dungy Colts. They keep coming up short against elite opposition in the post season. But one year they won't. And I know that patience is hard, but it's the right answer IMO. As a team (not just a defense) they need to break through that barrier.

Just now, NewEra said:

I think the 50 games should be filtered and sorted by top 10 offenses. We’ve had some good showings on D, but it’s not representative of our league rank imo.  Playing the jets, fins and pats offenses x2 also helps.  
 

our d just hasn’t impressed me unless we’re close to 💯 healthy.  I feel like it relies on great play and execution more than most great defenses.  Our league rank says we’re a great d.  My eyes haven’t seen a great bills d since Frazier has been here.  A couple very good D’s.  

 

Okay. Filter every other defense in the NFL that same way. Then rank them. I am confident Frazier will still be top 10 at worst.

[Dr. Who]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nah. It is over analysis of a defense that has played well for the most part (though I agree has generally under performed in the tough moments in the playoffs) with the purpose of defending an offense that has underperformed 3 out of 4 times too. The Bills just have to be better all around in those big spots. Over focus on Frazier given that is unfair. Personally I see them as the Dungy Colts. They keep coming up short against elite opposition in the post season. But one year they won't. And I know that patience is hard, but it's the right answer IMO. As a team (not just a defense) they need to break through that barrier.

 

Okay. Filter every other defense in the NFL that same way. Then rank them. I am confident Frazier will still be top 10 at worst.

I hope you're right, because that seems like the path we are going to take. I am with those who want a change. I'd prefer a more aggressive defensive approach. Regardless, more than anything, I hope OBD got the message that oline and offense needs to be the priority this offseason.

[John from Riverside]

8 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I’ve been frustrated as many have by the defensive issues seen in the post seasons the past 4 years.  I know McD learned at the feet of Jim Johnson, the famed DC for the Eagles.  So I went back and reviewed some of Johnson’s philosophies.

 

Like our current D, Johnson believed in making offenses take their time getting downfield, believing that opened up more chances for the opposing offense to make mistakes.  But once past the 50 yard line, then Johnson would get aggressive.  He was a big believer in zone blitz schemes, was probably the inventor of it.  He had very creative blitz calls, would sometimes send two corners out of the blue.  He’d move guys around on the line to create mismatches.  And his D always ranked near or at the top, despite personnel changes every year.

 

So I’m wondering why McD’s team has strayed so far away from his mentor’s philosophy.  We rarely see creative blitz packages.  We rarely move personnel around to creat mismatches; we just play the same 4 man rush and it hasn’t worked in the playoffs.  Our defense is passive; Johnson attacked.  
 

I wonder if McD has acceded to Frazier’s philosophy.  If so, then a good reason to let Frazier go and get back to his mentor’s concepts.  I don’t see us winning the Lombardi unless we change our defensive philosophy.

The whole year that’s exactly what the defense did. They made offenses work, their way down the field, and then got stingy year as they got closer to the red zone.
 

Right up until the Bengals game

 

I’m not happy with what happened in that playoff game but whenever you take a step back and you look at it, you have to look at the overall work a 13 and three season is nothing to scar fat. There are like 95% of the league that wish that they could do that.

 

Nobody is getting fired after a 13 and three season nobody not the head coach not the general manager, not the coordinators

 

The question that needs to be answered is what happened once we hit the playoffs

 

I still believe, and I have seen nothing to change my opinion. This team was emotionally spent the damar Hamlin situation cause this team to be spent emotionally. You don’t go from being one of the highest scoring teams in the league and giving up some of the fewest points in the league, along with finding ways to win close games all year long to what we saw last Sunday 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Yeah I think a lot of people are afraid of a new coach because they fear they might be worse than what we have now. They could be, but they also could be better.

 

In addition to your examples of Dungy and Reid, the Patriots fired Pete Caroll who had a winning record and 3 playoff games with them... to hire Bill Belichick.

 

 

 

The 49ers also fired a multiple NFCCG and SB coach... and now they have one of the brightest minds in the game today who has had them in 3 of the last 4 NFC Championship games.

They absolutely should be afraid of going backwards with a new coach a new system that requires new players
 

This team just went 13 and three there is absolutely no reason to believe that a new offensive or defensive philosophy that required retooling on both sides of the ball, would not result in a lesser record to think that you’re going to do better than 13 and three with major changes is just Folly

 

I get the people are concerned about what happened when we hit the playoffs this year I am too but first you gotta get there

[Einstein]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

They absolutely should be afraid of going backwards with a new coach a new system that requires new players
 

This team just went 13 and three there is absolutely no reason to believe that a new offensive or defensive philosophy that required retooling on both sides of the ball, would not result in a lesser record to think that you’re going to do better than 13 and three with major changes is just Folly

 

I get the people are concerned about what happened when we hit the playoffs this year I am too but first you gotta get there

 

I guess I don’t care about regular season record that much.
 

The Rams we’re 12-5 and won the Super Bowl last season.

 

We have been 13-3 for two of the last three seasons and have jack squat to show for it.

 

The only season I care about now is the postseason. And we have not done well in the postseason.

 

Think about all the coaches with good regular season records and no Super Bowls. I don’t want that to be us.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Einstein said:

 

I guess I don’t care about regular season record that much.
 

The Rams we’re 12-5 and won the Super Bowl last season.

 

We have been 13-3 for two of the last three seasons and have jack squat to show for it.

 

The only season I care about now is the postseason. And we have not done well in the postseason.

 

Think about all the coaches with good regular season records and no Super Bowls. I don’t want that to be us.

 

 

Yeah, that doesn’t really make any sense. You have to play well in the regular season in order to set yourself up for the postseason. It makes sense that you would want to do that.
 

The team that played the Bengals was just flat that’s all there is to it

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Yeah, that doesn’t really make any sense. You have to play well in the regular season in order to set yourself up for the postseason. It makes sense that you would want to do that.

 

Two teams that were 9-8 made the AFC

playoffs. You really don’t have to play all that well to make it.

 

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

The team that played the Bengals was just flat that’s all there is to it

 

They didn’t play well the week before that either. Heck, they haven’t really played well since October.

 

The Bills could go 17-0 in the regular season and I wouldn’t give two craps about that if it meant watching them lose in the playoffs again.

There are no regular season championships.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

Two teams that were 9-8 made the AFC

playoffs. You really don’t have to play all that well to make it.

 

 

They didn’t play well the week before that either. Heck, they haven’t really played well since October.

 

The Bills could go 17-0 in the regular season and I wouldn’t give two craps about that if it meant watching them lose in the playoffs again.

There are no regular season championships.

They have been flat in the fourth quarter of the season. There’s no denying that and the damar Hamlin situation had a lot to do with that.

 

Lesser team might make the playoffs but there’s absolutely no doubt it to suggest that they actually win Super Bowls. They turn into lucky to be there and happy to be their teams.

 

To me, it’s about consistency you can’t be ***** hot at the beginning of the season and then start playing fat and happy as you get closer to the playoffs sometimes I even like a loss because it keeps the team grounded realizing that they aren’t all that and the other teams can beat them

 

I still feel that this season was an outlier because of the Hamlin situation last year. The office was firing on all cylinders against the Chiefs and we should’ve won that game.

 

No participation trophies, though we didn’t win that game but I’m not gonna go down on this team because for a couple of years they ended up being the third of fourth best team in the league. Maybe that’s because I lived through the two decades of loss as a fan.

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

They have been flat in the fourth quarter of the season. There’s no denying that and the damar Hamlin situation had a lot to do with that.

 

Lesser team might make the playoffs but there’s absolutely no doubt it to suggest that they actually win Super Bowls. They turn into lucky to be there and happy to be their teams.

 

To me, it’s about consistency you can’t be ***** hot at the beginning of the season and then start playing fat and happy as you get closer to the playoffs sometimes I even like a loss because it keeps the team grounded realizing that they aren’t all that and the other teams can beat them

 

I still feel that this season was an outlier because of the Hamlin situation last year. The office was firing on all cylinders against the Chiefs and we should’ve won that game.

 

No participation trophies, though we didn’t win that game but I’m not gonna go down on this team because for a couple of years they ended up being the third of fourth best team in the league. Maybe that’s because I lived through the two decades of loss as a fan.

 

I respect your opinion but I just don’t think Hamlin had anything to do with it. They were flat long before Hamlin, and the we’re getting overpowered by Cinci in that first matchup before Hamlin went down.

[John from Riverside]

7 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I respect your opinion but I just don’t think Hamlin had anything to do with it. They were flat long before Hamlin, and the we’re getting overpowered by Cinci in that first matchup before Hamlin went down.

Players actually talked about it I think it had a lot to do with it. Roger saffold was quick to point it out

 

Ran out of gas means emotionally spent

 

Just stop and think about it for a minute these people are not robots they literally saw their teammate die on the field in front of them. Great medical staff was able to resuscitate him, but he did die.

[Sierra Foothills]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

But it does keep happening again.

 

- The infamous Deshaun Watson non-sack that lost the Texans playoff game

- 13 seconds

- Playing 10 yards off WR's on 3rd and 4 and generally getting abused all game against Cinci.

This is no longer a fluke or momentary lapse. This is a habit. This is a trend. This is the "norm" for playoff Bills defense

 

On top of what you mention above, another thing... actually two things, that I've had a hard time forgiving Leslie Frazier for are:

• The Hail Murray
• The jump ball Justin Jefferson "Catch of the Year in our bitter week 10 OT loss to the Vikings

To me, those are glaring failures that reside squarely on the shoulders of the DC.

 

The Bills D seems to flunk at Situational Football 101 more than is acceptable.

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Why are we acting like the defense is bad?

 

A practice squad safety, 1 arm and 1 legged safety, clearly not back Tre White, 4th string DT, practice squad DE and practice squad DT all played high amounts of snaps vs Bengals. 

 

 

This.  Thank you.

[JohnNord]

10 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I’ve been frustrated as many have by the defensive issues seen in the post seasons the past 4 years.  I know McD learned at the feet of Jim Johnson, the famed DC for the Eagles.  So I went back and reviewed some of Johnson’s philosophies.

 

Like our current D, Johnson believed in making offenses take their time getting downfield, believing that opened up more chances for the opposing offense to make mistakes.  But once past the 50 yard line, then Johnson would get aggressive.  He was a big believer in zone blitz schemes, was probably the inventor of it.  He had very creative blitz calls, would sometimes send two corners out of the blue.  He’d move guys around on the line to create mismatches.  And his D always ranked near or at the top, despite personnel changes every year.

 

So I’m wondering why McD’s team has strayed so far away from his mentor’s philosophy.  We rarely see creative blitz packages.  We rarely move personnel around to creat mismatches; we just play the same 4 man rush and it hasn’t worked in the playoffs.  Our defense is passive; Johnson attacked.  
 

I wonder if McD has acceded to Frazier’s philosophy.  If so, then a good reason to let Frazier go and get back to his mentor’s concepts.  I don’t see us winning the Lombardi unless we change our defensive philosophy.

it didn’t help that the offense scored 10 points

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Players actually talked about it I think it had a lot to do with it. Roger saffold was quick to point it out

 

Ran out of gas means emotionally spent

 

Just stop and think about it for a minute these people are not robots they literally saw their teammate die on the field in front of them. Great medical staff was able to resuscitate him, but he did die.

 

 

This too.

 

And yeah, Saffold said it and he wasn't the only one. Allen said it too, as did others.

[NewEra]

On 1/28/2023 at 2:56 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

Nah. It is over analysis of a defense that has played well for the most part (though I agree has generally under performed in the tough moments in the playoffs) with the purpose of defending an offense that has underperformed 3 out of 4 times too. The Bills just have to be better all around in those big spots. Over focus on Frazier given that is unfair. Personally I see them as the Dungy Colts. They keep coming up short against elite opposition in the post season. But one year they won't. And I know that patience is hard, but it's the right answer IMO. As a team (not just a defense) they need to break through that barrier.

 

Okay. Filter every other defense in the NFL that same way. Then rank them. I am confident Frazier will still be top 10 at worst.

Patience is hard when you have the clock ticking on 17s career.  How many more years do you give him?  If his defense gets romped on in a season ending loss next year…. Or the next 2? Or another 3 more defensive failures?  At that point, Joshs mobility isn’t what it is and we have no clue what condition his body will be in after another 3 years of abuse.  Th8/ regimes track record of bolstering the OL has been pitiful. 
 

I just don’t see Frazier coming up big when it counts against Cinci or KC unless he gets lucky and brings in a 💯 healthy D come playoffs. 

[DuckyBoys]

they peaked too early around the Chiefs game  After that never close to 100% Josh elbow Von Micah Hamlin  It just piled on

[bills11]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:15 AM, oldmanfan said:

I’ve been frustrated as many have by the defensive issues seen in the post seasons the past 4 years.  I know McD learned at the feet of Jim Johnson, the famed DC for the Eagles.  So I went back and reviewed some of Johnson’s philosophies.

 

Like our current D, Johnson believed in making offenses take their time getting downfield, believing that opened up more chances for the opposing offense to make mistakes.  But once past the 50 yard line, then Johnson would get aggressive.  He was a big believer in zone blitz schemes, was probably the inventor of it.  He had very creative blitz calls, would sometimes send two corners out of the blue.  He’d move guys around on the line to create mismatches.  And his D always ranked near or at the top, despite personnel changes every year.

 

So I’m wondering why McD’s team has strayed so far away from his mentor’s philosophy.  We rarely see creative blitz packages.  We rarely move personnel around to creat mismatches; we just play the same 4 man rush and it hasn’t worked in the playoffs.  Our defense is passive; Johnson attacked.  
 

I wonder if McD has acceded to Frazier’s philosophy.  If so, then a good reason to let Frazier go and get back to his mentor’s concepts.  I don’t see us winning the Lombardi unless we change our defensive philosophy.

The defence we run here in buffalo definitely is less aggresive than what McDermott has run when he was a d coordinator. Fraziers background is in strictly Tampa 2 and it shows..we run predominantly cover 3 or cover 2 zone looks oit of the nickel formation 

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, bills11 said:

The defence we run here in buffalo definitely is less aggresive than what McDermott has run when he was a d coordinator. Fraziers background is in strictly Tampa 2 and it shows..we run predominantly cover 3 or cover 2 zone looks oit of the nickel formation 

 

Frazier is a Jim Johnson guy as well so he has a background in cover 3 as well as in tampa 2. 

[ArtVandalay]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:15 AM, oldmanfan said:

I’ve been frustrated as many have by the defensive issues seen in the post seasons the past 4 years.  I know McD learned at the feet of Jim Johnson, the famed DC for the Eagles.  So I went back and reviewed some of Johnson’s philosophies.

 

Like our current D, Johnson believed in making offenses take their time getting downfield, believing that opened up more chances for the opposing offense to make mistakes.  But once past the 50 yard line, then Johnson would get aggressive.  He was a big believer in zone blitz schemes, was probably the inventor of it.  He had very creative blitz calls, would sometimes send two corners out of the blue.  He’d move guys around on the line to create mismatches.  And his D always ranked near or at the top, despite personnel changes every year.

 

So I’m wondering why McD’s team has strayed so far away from his mentor’s philosophy.  We rarely see creative blitz packages.  We rarely move personnel around to creat mismatches; we just play the same 4 man rush and it hasn’t worked in the playoffs.  Our defense is passive; Johnson attacked.  
 

I wonder if McD has acceded to Frazier’s philosophy.  If so, then a good reason to let Frazier go and get back to his mentor’s concepts.  I don’t see us winning the Lombardi unless we change our defensive philosophy.

McD tried to take over Johnsons defense and was promptly fired after only 2 years by Andy Reid. He was universally hated as DC in Philly and his play calling cost them some bad losses. 

[ticketssince61]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:44 AM, dave mcbride said:

A wiser HC and DC would have rushed 3 and ordered the Bills DBs to play press and immediately grab and hold onto every eligible KC receiver for dear life for two plays, forcing a hail mary from the chiefs’ own 35 with 4-5 seconds left. Maybe even do it a third time to ensure that the clock gets down to under 4 seconds , ensuring one play only. It would have worked. Instead, they played off. Mind boggling given the amount of time left, kc’s 3 TOs, the quality of the KC qb and receivers, and the distance they had to go.

 

I thought the same thing, but someone recently mentioned to me that is a penalty AND the time can be put back on the clock!

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/3/28/15066542/nfl-rule-prevent-team-burning-clock-repeated-intentional-penalties

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:56 AM, Billl said:

 

Here are the players who played the most defensive snaps against the Bengals:

Lawson

Rousseau

Oliver

Settle

Milano

Edmunds

Johnson

Elam

White

Marlowe

Poyer

 

Poyer and White were clearly less than 100%.  There is not a DC in the history of the league who could take that group of players and consistently slow down Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, Boyd, and Hurst.  Had Von, Hyde, Poyer, and White all been available and close to 100%, it’s a different conversation.  Instead, Frasier brought a knife to a gun fight.

 

Snakebit season….three most important players to this defense either out or playing hurt.  Safety depth was a huge issue 

 

no Daquan jones in that bengals game either 

 

I can’t blame people for seeing it as making excuses after that disappointing loss but over time maybe it will be viewed differently 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

13 minutes ago, ticketssince61 said:

 

I thought the same thing, but someone recently mentioned to me that is a penalty AND the time can be put back on the clock!

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/3/28/15066542/nfl-rule-prevent-team-burning-clock-repeated-intentional-penalties

 

Recently? 😁 we’ve been saying that since the chiefs bills game last year lol

[purple haze]

If Frazier goes the defense won’t.   This is like the dome/no dome conversation.  McDermott hired a like minded coach to run the scheme.  Would McDermott change his defensive principles and change to a different scheme?    If so,  are the players in place to run that scheme?  Change might make people feel better but doing it could set the team back too.

[HappyDays]

51 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Snakebit season….three most important players to this defense either out or playing hurt.  Safety depth was a huge issue 

 

no Daquan jones in that bengals game either 

 

I can’t blame people for seeing it as making excuses after that disappointing loss but over time maybe it will be viewed differently 

 

It is a reasonable excuse for this year, but not 2021 or 2020. We had a fully healthy defense when Philip Rivers on his last legs nearly pulled off an upset in the wildcard round. So our defense faltering in the playoffs has been a trend, not an exception. The Chiefs don't have an especially talented defense. Chris Jones is of course elite but other than him it is just a decent group of players. Yet they held the same Bengals offense we faced to just 20 points. The Bengals almost scored that much against us in the 1st quarter... To my eyes it was not because the Chiefs are that much more talented than we were last week, it was because their scheme was unpredictable from play to play and they took chances. We played the Bengals the exact same way we play every offense we've faced for the last 5 years. That makes it way too easy for them to figure out. I don't want to read too much into our first game against them but it was looking just as bad in that one, so with the added context of the divisional round I think it is fair to admit our defensive scheme simply does not work against talented well-coached offenses at the end of the season.