Buscaglia: Both Bills Coordinators are likely to be back in 2023

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, JohnNord said:

To be fair though, he had the same starting 5 last season and they seemed to regress.  Not sure if that’s on him but our like played worse this season 

 

 

Not Saffold. But your point stands, I think. For a short while in the early middle of the season things seemed to come together and be improving and it looked a bit the way the 2021 line came together. Then they seemed to regress, particularly at RT. Is it an injury? Who knows, but they didn't improve this year. 

 

Kromer has a great reputation, but something resulted in the line not getting much better. And Saffold was apparently a Kromer guy and he was not a good pickup.

 

It's always harder to tell whether the problem is players or coaches than fans want to admit. From outside the building a lot of times it's very hard indeed. But something was wrong there. Hope they'll get serious about drafting some young talent fairly high this year at OL.

2 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

Sounds like McD has at least 2 seasons left as head coach after next season we will fire Frazier and Dorsey and Babitch and Brady will take over . Once we lose again in the 2024 playoffs The Pegulas will realize Mcd is not the answer and he will be fired. 

 

 

Sure, there's probably a 1% chance that it all happens like that. But kid yourself you can tell the future if you want.

[Bruffalo]

Much rather see Babitch take over than Frazier stay.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Bruffalo

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Not Saffold. But your point stands, I think. For a short while in the early middle of the season things seemed to come together and be improving and it looked a bit the way the 2021 line came together. Then they seemed to regress, particularly at RT. Is it an injury? Who knows, but they didn't improve this year. 

 

Kromer has a great reputation, but something resulted in the line not getting much better. And Saffold was apparently a Kromer guy and he was not a good pickup.

 

It's always harder to tell whether the problem is players or coaches than fans want to admit. From outside the building a lot of times it's very hard indeed. But something was wrong there. Hope they'll get serious about drafting some young talent fairly high this year at OL.

Saffold got worse as the season went on. When he said they were out of gas, I believe he was talking about himself.  An O-line is like dominos.  If one guy is struggling, it's going to impact the rest of the line because they have to compensate for the weak spot.  

 

He was just getting abused later in the season and in the Cincy game, was made to look absolutely foolish to the point I was embarrassed for him. He said he wants to stay in Buffalo.  Unless it's as a backup at the vet min, hard pass.  He didn't come close to earning the $6 million we paid him to come here.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Mango]

I am actually not upset with no changes from a logical standpoint. These guys built us into a 13 win team. The chances of making a major move and getting worse are high. 

I am concerned that the roster feels to be at a tipping point, and if we run it back there is a chance they lose the roster at some point this year. And at that point you have to blow the thing up. Where just a single change in OC, DC, or even GM could help reset internal belief. For the first time the FO sounds like all questions, no answers. 

[PBF81]

13 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

Letting Saffold walk, would be a big step in the right direction.

 

I think he's a free agent.  Either way, an even bigger step would be for Beane to quit trying to stock our OL from the league's budget bargain bin in free-agency.  

 

Would love to see a C and an OT in rounds 1 & 2.  Honestly, if he drafts another DE/DL or DB ...  

 

Morse isn't long for the game with 6 concussions and being a Center now in his back-9.  He's currently the glue that holds the line together.  He was injury prone before he got here, he missed a few this season.  It would be unwise to count on him at this point.  

 

Would love to see them make a move for Patterson, even if it's a slight reach.  He could play G until Morse can't play C anymore.  

[Billz4ever]

9 minutes ago, Bandito said:

The point is the Bills O and D were both trash that game. It was more the O's fault though

Disagree.  We were facing a team with 3/5 of the starting O-line out and we got manhandled.  A D-Line should be licking their chops to know they're facing an offense in that kind of situation.  

 

The offense struggling was no big surprise. We've seen this offense do this since the 2nd half of the Packers game.  When Diggs is our only real threat at receiver and Josh can't get him the ball, that's what's going to happen.  

 

You're saying the offense should've been able to win a shootout with them, even though it's obvious their offense has more legit weapons, and our defense had no answer.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Billz4ever

[newcam2012]

28 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Not every player will turn from chicken ***** to chicken salad.  Also easier on a defense that knows what we are running all the time.  I would say our run game looked better this year.  That has to do with line play as well.

The Bills are going into next season with Spencer Brown at RT. He has underwhemled at that position since he's been there. Certainly, a big question mark going into next season. The Bills are going into next season hoping he improves. That's not an ideal situation.

 

Seems like that's the theme of next season with several guys. That mindset certainly hurt the Bills passing game this year as Gabe, McKenzie, and Shakir underperformed for various reasons. 

[DapperCam]

14 hours ago, JohnNord said:

To be fair though, he had the same starting 5 last season and they seemed to regress.  Not sure if that’s on him but our like played worse this season 

We didn’t have Saffold who seems worse than Williams at G last year. Spencer Brown also looked worse to me. He had off-season back surgery and didn’t have any training camp. For a big guy like him that can be a career killer.

 

Idk if it’s on Kromer or Dorsey, but we only seemed to have like 2 running plays. Maybe get creative and add a few more for next year to make things more difficult for the opposing team.

[BuffaloRebound]

15 minutes ago, Mango said:

I am actually not upset with no changes from a logical standpoint. These guys built us into a 13 win team. The chances of making a major move and getting worse are high. 

I am concerned that the roster feels to be at a tipping point, and if we run it back there is a chance they lose the roster at some point this year. And at that point you have to blow the thing up. Where just a single change in OC, DC, or even GM could help reset internal belief. For the first time the FO sounds like all questions, no answers. 

This.  The scars from 13 seconds and that ass beating on Sunday aren’t going away.  Your All Pro WR is almost certainly not the only guy on the team who is questioning things.  

[drummernut74]

29 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Beane and McD right now...

Trust the process ... the fire department will be here shortly! lol (face palm)

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

I wondered if their attempts to “help” Dorsey, actually made it worse.  Brady, an experienced play caller, was brought in as QB coach, so you had a rookie OC over a veteran.  Then, they brought in Mike Shula as a consultant.  Could there then have been too man6 opinions and voices for Josh?

 

I have wondered the same thing, but about Dorsey.  Especially toss in that Mike Shula was Dorsey's boss in Carolina, the OC while Dorsey was QB coach.  I can't imagine a scenario where it would be comfortable to step up to a new lead role with my former boss of 5 years sitting at the side of the table.  IF Dorsey had a clear vision for the offense, did it suffer from having too many people with their fingers in the pot.  Were Dorsey's efforts diluted by having to align 4 or more viewpoints before he could move forward?

[PBF81]

12 hours ago, wvbillsfan said:

I understand the defensive DVOA and missing starters argument 

But so was Bengals offense 

injuries are part of the game 

 

Accountability doesn’t make excuses and there needs to be accountability for the playoff failures as well as our slow starts in the first quarter 

 

It’s almost like we take no time during the week to game plan. 

 

Agreed.  The concern should be Allen getting injured.  I mean how long can he play with a below-average OL, taking the hits he takes, unnecessarily because McBeane won't protect him properly.  We've been fortunate to this point.  

 

If that happens, there's zero chance of much of anything besides finishing in the basement of the East for who knows, what, another 20 years.  They broke the mold on Allen, we'd be lucky to get another great pocket passer, and a pocket passer would not fare well behind our O-Line w/o any semblance of a reliable running game.  I mean seriously, who sees us as anything but a 5-12 (or so) team if Allen's not the QB.  Subtracting the one-possession games alone that we won would have put us at 7-9 this season and behind the Jets who would have been 8-9.  

 

Allen is unique, I feel bad for him as he has to unreasonably shoulder just about everything associated with this team, and has to overcome poor coaching, poor game-planning, poor protection, the lack of even an average running game apart from himself, poor defense at times, etc.  

 

Without Allen, our rushing game ranks 2nd-to-Last in both yards and rushing TDs.  

 

I don't see any QB, including Allen, having much more than a brief career having to play like that every season as he's had to do.  I don't see how it's possible that he plays like that after years of getting hammered once he exits his prime, which is what, a few short years from now and shortly after the new stadium is built, ... if they ever get off their duffs and get it going.  

 

Underlying your point seems to be the notion that McBeane are content to get all that they can out of Allen without much regard to his future beyond his prime years.  

Edited January 27, 2023 by PBF81

[MrEpsYtown]

I didn't have a problem with the Saffold signing. But it was clear as day, to anyone who watches football how horrible he was, and they never made any effort to replace him at all. I know their depth wasn't great, but their was no attempt. Is Van Roten better? I dunno. Ike Boettger when he came back? At this point yeah. They got rid of Quentin Spain quick and should have replaced Saffold in the same manner. 

 

Another weird thing to me, why put the two most inexperienced linemen on the line next to each other on the right? I mean stick Bates between Dawkins and Morse and Saffold/Van Roten next to Brown. 

 

The whole process around Saffold was weird and illogical. 

[Mango]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

This.  The scars from 13 seconds and that ass beating on Sunday aren’t going away.  Your All Pro WR is almost certainly not the only guy on the team who is questioning things.  

 

I think Diggs acting the way he did on the filed questioning his QB or OC so publicly (again), not coming back to address the team or the fans the next day, then doubling down on it via twitter, opens up a lot of doors for dissention. Whether I like Diggs as a leader is irrelevant, he is elected captain by his peers on the team. Teammates will fall in line behind him on this. If they struggle next year those numbers grow, and we are in full reset mode. 

That is the way this stuff works. 

[Ramza86]

I mean....McDermott is gone next year if he produces another failure. So he might as well ride and die with the guys he wants.

[Drew21PA]

McDermott and Co are toast if they don’t get the the superbowl

 

no changes after this year so you better get there

[Beck Water]

14 hours ago, JohnNord said:

To be fair though, he had the same starting 5 last season and they seemed to regress.  Not sure if that’s on him but our like played worse this season 

 

??

 

Starting OL last season:

Dawkins-Feliciano-Morse-Williams-Brown

Dawkins-Boettger-Morse-Williams-Brown

Dawkins-Bates-Morse-Williams-Brown

 

We moved on from Williams, added Saffold, and moved Bates from LG to RG

 

This season

Dawkins-Saffold-Morse-Bates-Brown

 

Effectively different at 2/5 positions

 

We started the season with a run blocking scheme I don't think we could actually run effectively

 

Saffold IMHO was a pass blocking disaster at LG.  A mauler in the run game at times, but I think Dawkins worked better with Bates next to him.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Beck Water

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

McD - coaches players; hires coordinators and coaches

 

Beane - brings in players; runs the draft

 

This isn’t 2016 anymore.  If there are no key injuries and this team takes steps back next year I’m 1000% fine with firing Beane and getting a GM to get a fresh look at everything especially as my QB will begin to enter his age 28 season in 2024.  

 

Which means the Coach will be fired.  
 

My problem is Beane.  And if you fire Beane you’re looking at a new coach.  
 

This is a tough business they tell the players who’s jobs are never safe all the time. 
 

You get 10 years if you win a Super Bowl.  
 

We’ve been to 1 AFC Championship game 2 seasons ago now.  
 

Players will tune out eventually.  And we haven’t developed enough of them the last 4 years - our roster is still being driven by Allen, Hyde, Poyer, Milano, Edmonds, Dawkins, Morse, White, and Diggs.  All the guys mentioned came in before the 2020 season.  There isn’t one other player that you’d say “we need that guy or we’re in trouble.”  
 

But if one of those guys is out, it’s chaos.  That speaks poorly to the GM and the coaches.  
 

Our roster is inferior to the Eagles, Bengals, Dolphins, Browns, Chargers, 49ers, and maybe even the Ravens.  But we have Josh so it’s cool.  

 

 

But all that said.  I think this team can still be better next year but it absolutely has to 

 

1.  Improve the oline significantly 

 

2. Get another WR

 

3. Get a Safety 

 

4. Resign Edmonds 

 

5. Get an NFL Running back.  

 

 

 

They've got three NFL running backs.

 

There really are a few other guys they need or we're in trouble. Von Miller, for one. Daquan Jones for another. And the offense looked significantly worse when Gabe Davis was fighting through his injury.

 

And it's just not true that if we lose only one of those guys it's a disaster. At one point we had six out of our eleven defensive starters not playing. A few came back, but a few more went out. This was a horrible year for injuries.

 

Also disagree that our roster was so far below all those other teams. Generally people have said that our lineup, when healthy, which it rarely was, was one of the top two or three in the league. A bunch of injuries and some OL regression left that a thing of the past.

 

But I agree with the rest of your post. 

[B-Man]

14 hours ago, JohnNord said:

https://theathletic.com/4128667/2023/01/26/buffalo-bills-offseason-coaches/?source=user_shared_article
 

Leslie Frazier:

Mentions there is heat on Frazier after the playoff loss, but that he was missing a key starter in Jones.  With injuries to Hyde, Miller and White, the Bills defense still finished 4th in DVOA.  

 

 

 

 

So we can't really blame Frazier, but. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . we can fire the Safeties coach ?

 

 

[Billz4ever]

9 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

The Bills are going into next season with Spencer Brown at RT. He has underwhemled at that position since he's been there. Certainly, a big question mark going into next season. The Bills are going into next season hoping he improves. That's not an ideal situation.

 

Seems like that's the theme of next season with several guys. That mindset certainly hurt the Bills passing game this year as Gabe, McKenzie, and Shakir underperformed for various reasons. 

So far, the vibes I'm getting are they don't see many big issues and are content with running it back.

 

Getting rid of the safeties coach and possibly Kromer isn't any meaningful change. 

 

We still have to see what happens in the draft, but with what I've seen and heard so far, next season scares the s*** out of me.

 

 

1 minute ago, B-Man said:

 

So we can't really blame Frazier, but. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . we can fire the Safeties coach ?

 

 

Yes, we sacrifice the guy coaching the position where we were missing one all-pro almost all season and the other all-pro was playing hurt all year.

 

Make it make sense.

[Thurman#1]

23 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Disagree.  We were facing a team with 3/5 of the starting O-line out and we got manhandled.  A D-Line should be licking their chops to know they're facing an offense in that kind of situation.  

 

The offense struggling was no big surprise. We've seen this offense do this since the 2nd half of the Packers game.  When Diggs is our only real threat at receiver and Josh can't get him the ball, that's what's going to happen.  

 

You're saying the offense should've been able to win a shootout with them, even though it's obvious their offense has more legit weapons, and our defense had no answer.

 

 

Yeah, we didn't handle their O-line when they had 3/5 of their starters out. But nobody wants to mention that we had 2/5 of the D-Line across from that O-line out, and the ones who were out were probably the two best guys, the two who consistently drew doubles, Von Miller and DaQuan Jones. Nobody seems to want to remember that.

 

This team has had a horrific season, with problems for the ages. And yet again, nobody wants to mention this when talking about how they played. They simply didn't look like the same team. For whatever reason they had a really bad day. If they'd had a good day and a few less injuries, this could easily have been a very different game. Hard to say, of course, but very possible.

[PBF81]

11 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I didn't have a problem with the Saffold signing. But it was clear as day, to anyone who watches football how horrible he was, and they never made any effort to replace him at all. I know their depth wasn't great, but their was no attempt. Is Van Roten better? I dunno. Ike Boettger when he came back? At this point yeah. They got rid of Quentin Spain quick and should have replaced Saffold in the same manner. 

 

Another weird thing to me, why put the two most inexperienced linemen on the line next to each other on the right? I mean stick Bates between Dawkins and Morse and Saffold/Van Roten next to Brown. 

 

The whole process around Saffold was weird and illogical. 

 

A Titans friend of mine came over for the Bills/Cinci game and he didn't know that Saffold was on the Bills, he started laughing once he saw Saffold and started making fun of him.  He had nothing good to say about his time in Tennessee.   

 

Morse and Dawkins are the only relatively consistent OL-men that we have.  The rest are mediocre and below-average.  But this is what happens when you stock your OL talent from the budget bargain bin in free agency with 1-2 year signees.  

 

31 is old for a C and given Morse's 6 concussions, I'd make plans for the future there.  Both are only signed for two more seasons as it is.  Rookie OL-men rarely come in and play to above-average levels.  And what if either goes down due to injury?  Morse already missed a few games and he was injury prone before he came here, now he's entering his back-9, with 6 concussions.  I mean looking at it from his point of view, Jr. Seau comes to mind.  

 

To your point, when you have Allen, the entire approach, or non-approach we could say, to "building" the OL is weird and illogical.  

[Haslett_Stomp]

Watching the 49ers offense operate with a 3rd string QB magnifies the ineptitude of the Bills offensive scheme(s).

[schoolhouserock]

Lots of speculation in this thread about some sort of a “blame game” going on behind the scenes between the various coaches.

 

The truth is that we don’t really know the interpersonal dynamics among the various coaches.

 

We could speculate about other ways this shook out…

 

For example, maybe Jim Salgado wanted to do something other than coach safeties?

 

Or perhaps the Bills determined that a major shift in approach to their defensive backfield was warranted and they felt coach Salgado wasn’t the right person to aid that transition?

 

Everything doesn’t always have to be the worst case scenario!

 

 

[Thurman#1]

5 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

 

Yes, we sacrifice the guy coaching the position where we were missing one all-pro almost all season and the other all-pro was playing hurt all year.

 

Make it make sense.

 

 

Yeah, I wish that instead of the guys who were there in the meetings watching the actual coaching and talking to the players making the call there, instead of the fans who have very little first-hand knowledge.

 

Oh, wait ...

[PBF81]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, we didn't handle their O-line when they had 3/5 of their starters out. But nobody wants to mention that we had 2/5 of the D-Line across from that O-line out, and the ones who were out were probably the two best guys, the two who consistently drew doubles, Von Miller and DaQuan Jones. Nobody seems to want to remember that.

 

This team has had a horrific season, with problems for the ages. And yet again, nobody wants to mention this when talking about how they played. They simply didn't look like the same team. For whatever reason they had a really bad day. If they'd had a good day and a few less injuries, this could easily have been a very different game. Hard to say, of course, but very possible.

 

Our DL vs. the Bengals featured 3 former 1st rounders and 2 former 2nd rounders, 2 and 2 if we only count the ones on Beane's watch.  

 

It's quite possible that he doesn't know what he's doing.  

9 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

So we can't really blame Frazier, but. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . we can fire the Safeties coach ?

 

 

 

LOL, like I joked, nothing really changes until we fire one of the Quality Control Assistant coaches.  

 

Again, loyalty is good, but when it supersedes the business/performance aspect of the enterprise, ... 

[Thurman#1]

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Our DL vs. the Bengals featured 3 former 1st rounders and 2 former 2nd rounders, 2 and 2 if we only count the ones on Beane's watch.  

 

It's quite possible that he doesn't know what he's doing.  

 

LOL, like I joked, nothing really changes until we fire one of the Quality Control Assistant coaches.  

 

Again, loyalty is good, but when it supersedes the business/performance aspect of the enterprise, ... 

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, we didn't handle their O-line when they had 3/5 of their starters out. But nobody wants to mention that we had 2/5 of the D-Line across from that O-line out, and the ones who were out were probably the two best guys, the two who consistently drew doubles, Von Miller and DaQuan Jones. Nobody seems to want to remember that.

 

This team has had a horrific season, with problems for the ages. And yet again, nobody wants to mention this when talking about how they played. They simply didn't look like the same team. For whatever reason they had a really bad day. If they'd had a good day and a few less injuries, this could easily have been a very different game. Hard to say, of course, but very possible.

True, Daq being out hurt and of course Von, but that still leaves us with Groot, Ed, Shaq, Boog, and AJE (not mentioning Settle or Phillips since we didn't draft them and Phillips was playing with 1 arm).

 

That's a whole lot of first and 2nd round picks right there that got pushed up and down the football field by a backup O-Line.

 

But I certainly agree with you they didn't look like the same team.  Oh, how I dream of last year's team with a Von Miller on it and the possibilities if :13 seconds doesn't happen.

[Livinginthepast]

1 hour ago, Bandito said:

The Bills scored 10 pts against the Bengals. 

And the Bengals scored 27 points on us, and actually it should have been 31. So your point was? 

[newcam2012]

15 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, we didn't handle their O-line when they had 3/5 of their starters out. But nobody wants to mention that we had 2/5 of the D-Line across from that O-line out, and the ones who were out were probably the two best guys, the two who consistently drew doubles, Von Miller and DaQuan Jones. Nobody seems to want to remember that.

 

This team has had a horrific season, with problems for the ages. And yet again, nobody wants to mention this when talking about how they played. They simply didn't look like the same team. For whatever reason they had a really bad day. If they'd had a good day and a few less injuries, this could easily have been a very different game. Hard to say, of course, but very possible.

That's another way to look at it. Certainly valid points. 

 

What's really concerning is the ease and dominance that Cinci beat the Bills in their own building. Hard to overlook, minimize, or excuse that despite the injuries you have mentioned. It was very clear the Bills didn't belong on the same field with the Bengals. Was it lack of talent? Surely that's part of it.

 

Secondly, it's hard to swallow how out coached and out schemed the Bills coaching staff was. To this day, I have no idea what they did differently from that Monday night game. They learned nothing from the Bengals two dominate drives? To put it bluntly, Fraizer and Dorsey got taken to the woodshed. Coach McD had no answers, a poor game plan, and little effective game time adjustments. The coaching staff equally lost this game. That really shouldn't be erased, acceptable, or diminished. Yet, Beane comes out and says he's not placing too much emphasis on one game. Go back and look what he's said in previous end of season pressers. He has repeatedly stated you are as good as your last game. That game will tell you what your weaknesses are and where you need to improve. Talk about a 180? How can we fans feel confident with such a glaring contradiction? 

[Billz4ever]

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

This was Groot's 2nd season and we've seen some good improvement from him. Willing to give him more time.

 

Disagree on Ed completely. This was his 4th season and he has totally underperformed his draft position at the 9th overall pick.  I'm hoping we can trade him.

[Billz4ever]

5 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

That's another way to look at it. Certainly valid points. 

 

What's really concerning is the ease and dominance that Cinci beat the Bills in their own building. Hard to overlook, minimize, or excuse that despite the injuries you have mentioned. It was very clear the Bills didn't belong on the same field with the Bengals. Was it lack of talent? Surely that's part of it.

 

Secondly, it's hard to swallow how out coached and out schemed the Bills coaching staff was. To this day, I have no idea what they did differently from that Monday night game. They learned nothing from the Bengals two dominate drives? To put it bluntly, Fraizer and Dorsey got taken to the woodshed. Coach McD had no answers, a poor game plan, and little effective game time adjustments. The coaching staff equally lost this game. That really shouldn't be erased, acceptable, or diminished. Yet, Beane comes out and says he's not placing too much emphasis on one game. Go back and look what he's said in previous end of season pressers. He has repeatedly stated you are as good as your last game. That game will tell you what your weaknesses are and where you need to improve. Talk about a 180? How can we fans feel confident with such a glaring contradiction? 

Yep, outcoached is every aspect.

 

So, we stay with all the same coaches. What changes are they going to make from this embarrassment to when we play Cincy next season?  It's clear Frazier didn't do anything different from the 1st quarter of the Monday night game.

 

Is this like where you discipline your kid and tell them they made poor decisions and they promise to make better decisions in the future?

 

Frazier is one of the most inflexible coaches I've ever seen. Even when what he's doing clearly isn't working, he's slow to change things up.

 

 

[newcam2012]

20 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

Depends on your perspective and expectations. The Bills looked good statistically with regards to the regular season. They won 13 games and the AFC East title. Certainly there's a positive. They are a good team. 

 

 

The playoffs were a much different story. The Bills were very fortunate to beat the Dolphins. We know the Cinci story. To say the Bills fell short is a vast understatement. The way they lost should open up everyone's eyes. Did you hear a solid plan from Beane or McD?  My take is they are running it back with the same coaches and hoping for a healthy return of players while others improve. What did you hear? 

 

Are you are ok with nice regular season? A nice record and early playoff exits? That exactly what this regime has given us. Six years ago that was more than acceptable. Fast forward to today and I think its safe to say the standards have changed. Now is the time to seriously question whether the Beane McD regime has run its course. I believe they have earned another shot but my confidence they can progress is dwindling. 

[Billz4ever]

4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Depends on your perspective and expectations. The Bills looked good statistically with regards to the regular season. They won 13 games and the AFC East title. Certainly there's a positive. They are a good team. 

 

 

The playoffs were a much different story. The Bills were very fortunate to beat the Dolphins. We know the Cinci story. To say the Bills fell short is a vast understatement. The way they lost should open up everyone's eyes. Did you hear a solid plan from Beane or McD?  My take is they are running it back with the same coaches and hoping for a healthy return of players while others improve. What did you hear? 

 

Are you are ok with nice regular season? A nice record and early playoff exits? That exactly what this regime has given us. Six years ago that was more than acceptable. Fast forward to today and I think its safe to say the standards have changed. Now is the time to seriously question whether the Beane McD regime has run its course. I believe they have earned another shot but my confidence they can progress is dwindling. 

We've got a pretty brutal schedule next season, especially on the road.  We're going to find out pretty quick what this team is made of.  With what appears to be them making as few changes as possible, 13 wins next year may be a pipedream. Just making the postseason could be a struggle.

 

Home: Dolphins, Patriots, Jets, Broncos, Raiders, Cowboys, Giants, Buccaneers, Jaguars

Away: Chiefs, Chargers, Dolphins, Patriots, Jets, Eagles, Bengals, Commanders

[DCofNC]

I can understand looking at reality and saying, Dorsey wasn’t perfect, but we see potential, let’s let him run it back and get some more weapons for him.  
 

Kromer, major disappointment and I wonder if he got sent packing from LA because he’s great at an older approach and not getting the linemen where they need to be for a more wide open O.  Purely a 2 second thought here, but the line was not good… I could see him being gone.

 

Frazier, enough is enough.  Yes, the scheme works well enough to win games when the offense scores a lot, but it’s actually counter productive to the team success.  We want JA on the field, allowing teams to dink and dunk down the field and burn clock is NOT what we should strive for.  Go for the kill, if you get burned, cool Josh, go get ‘em.  If you get the ball back quicker, cool, Josh go get ‘em.  Waiting for a good team to screw up means you lose the time of possession game and ultimately your offense has to be perfect and quick to win.  It’s a bad formula for the post season.

 

Ultimately, we need to look at the formula overall.  You are a poor weather, outdoor team.  Relying on a finesse game to score and big bombs down the field to be converted is fun, and doable, in good weather or a dome.  As soon as the wind kicked up, snow flew and we had to play in the elements, the team began to struggle.  Does everyone think it coincidence that Josh starts off on fire and flames out every year (statistically)?  Or that many of his biggest games come on the road?   I’m not saying build a Ravens offense, but I’m saying you need to look at something like the Pats ran with Brady.  Quick hitters, the wind doesn’t bother, have a run game that can punch a team in the mouth and then when they try to take it away, go to the next level.   I don’t know about you, but I thought it worked pretty well for NE.   You could easily ask Diggs to play the Welker/Edelman role where he gets to do whatever the hell he wants, but mostly focus on the quick throws and gets fed the ball 15 targets a game.  Use Knox as a Gronk type.  If you destroy the middle of the field, they have to drop LBs back a bit and then you hit them with the runnning backs, who should be more the bully types.  How KC finds Pacheco that late in the draft for a battering Ram with 4.3 speed is beyond me, but we need a guy like him or a rookie year Karlos Williams, big punisher with enough juice to make a missed tackle into 15 yards.   We need to take a page from Bellicheck and dare I say it, Doug Whaley, get guys that are bigger and faster than the guys they are playing against.  Be Physical.  We don’t need dancing bears, we need Josh to have a pocket and we need some holes opened up for the RB between the tackles.  Speed rushers never were Brady’s problem, you just step out of their path, the real key is some hogs inside that don’t let Dick Grabber come right up in Josh’s grille every pass attempt.

58 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

Yeah no.  I’m not accepting the “we draft too late” excuse.  KC is drafting after us every year and keeps replenishing talent and whooping our ass in the playoffs.  It’s poor talent evaluation and poor use of resources. 

[First Round Bust]

15 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Not a surprise.

 

Kromer is one of the best o line coaches out there.  Get the guy some players.

starting with Spencer Brown...size, outstanding-extremely high RAS score (same with Doyle), a small school project taken early due those above average metrics, then factor in the back injury-surgery....as Beane mentioned in the post-season presser...there is some upside expect but Beano my good man..after two years he seems to have the Cody Ford slow feet syndrome as he cannot effectivley block the speed rushers from that right side, and last year when they moved him to left tackle to sub for Dawkins (due to COVID) he as even worse.

Onward to year three...is hoping for technique improvments past the point of no return ? esp since its been two years with one under Kromer with no improvement or even regression...necessitates another tackle pick this draft, with early to mid-round more of a focus, and if its for gods sake draft someone with quick feet.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I guess it's possible Beane doesn't know what he's doing. But nearly all the evidence points the other way. This team has both units near the top of DVOA and the whole team was #1. If he didn't know what he was doing, that simply wouldn't have happened. Doesn't mean he's perfect, of course. But good? That appears very clear.

 

As for their rounds, one of the problems the Bills now have is that they're drafting in the mid to late twenties consistently. The blue-chippers are gone by then. His first round picks have been good. The two first rounders you mentioned, Oliver and Rousseau, are solid value. The two second rounders you mentioned are young and may get better. Or not. So far neither has lived up to their spot, but we'll have to see.

 

And the "business/performance aspect of the enterprise" is doing really really well. Could be better, of course. Only one team really goes home happy at the end of the year and let's face it, we aren't that team. But they put a really good product on the field. Most teams would trade for McDermott/Beane/Allen in a second.

 

"Recency bias from this last game, I know everyone’s gonna lose their minds, but we did a lot of good things this year."  - Josh Allen

 

Yup. 

 

Well, I'd say this, that at the end of the day they're not cutting it.  

[Nextmanup]

I'm not a fan of Joe B.  He doesn't know more than you or I know.

 

By the way, don't read anything into that "year 2" reference at the press conference.

 

These guys are ALL, ALWAYS going to talk as though everyone in the organization is in it, and will be in it going forward....until they get canned the next day.

 

I do think we will NOT change any coordinators, and that is a mistake.

 

It will be magnified next year.

 

 

[HeHateMe]

They should absolutely move on from Frasier... I would seriously look at upgrading from Dorsey as well.  Josh needs a better offensive system to operate in and needs more support on the o-line and WRs..

 

Running it back with the same staff is so lame and seems like a punt.

[Billz4ever]

37 minutes ago, First Round Bust said:

starting with Spencer Brown...size, outstanding-extremely high RAS score (same with Doyle), a small school project taken early due those above average metrics, then factor in the back injury-surgery....as Beane mentioned in the post-season presser...there is some upside expect but Beano my good man..after two years he seems to have the Cody Ford slow feet syndrome as he cannot effectivley block the speed rushers from that right side, and last year when they moved him to left tackle to sub for Dawkins (due to COVID) he as even worse.

Onward to year three...is hoping for technique improvments past the point of no return ? esp since its been two years with one under Kromer with no improvement or even regression...necessitates another tackle pick this draft, with early to mid-round more of a focus, and if its for gods sake draft someone with quick feet.

Scary thought, but maybe Kromer is the main reason this line worked at all this season with the talent, or lack thereof that's there.  Kromer may have been making lemonade out of lemons all season and he's getting blamed now for the line looking bad, when he had them playing over their heads much of the season.