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Do you still trust the defense at all?


Sharky7337
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Do you still trust the following-  

153 members have voted

  1. 1. The overall defense in crucial moments?

    • Yes
      14
    • No
      134
    • Undecided
      5
  2. 2. The defensive gameplans in critical moments

    • Yes
      5
    • No
      141
    • Undecided
      7
  3. 3. The defensive coaching, talent evaluation, player development

    • Yes
      14
    • No
      111
    • Undecided
      28


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No

No

Undecided

 

They have done a good job with some talent development, but not with others.  It's a mixed bag but recently not for the better. Tre was an amazing pick and development, Rouseau I like a lot,  Milano excellent, Taron Johnson solid... but between Oliver, Basham, Epenesa, Edmunds, Bernard, just bad job especially Oliver so overrated by this board sometimes dude is merely just another guy low impact undersized DT. Elam has little impact but too early to call. Wallace was solid when he was here. 

 

The last 4 drafts have been pretty bad though, aside from Allen obviously. A guy here or there but very few impact our reliable guys. 

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1 minute ago, B-Large said:

 

He's a 34 year old guy with 2 ACL tears to the same knee.  That makes me worry a bit, and I'd feel much better if someone had emerged and stepped up this season.  If he has lingering issues next season, we can't have no answers.   

 

I don't think these guys are terrible but something is wrong.  There is talent.  They weren't this bad last year.

 

I like and respect Frazier but it seems we are way too easy to figure out.  We don't get home on the blitz.  QB's know where to go immediately after the snap.

The only game Zack Wilson looked decent in was against us.  Tua lit us up after being embarrassed the week before.  

I think Tyler Boyd said we're "basic" on defense.  That's a gigantic problem.

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Beane press conference was disappointing. He pretty much gave Dorsey and Frazier votes of confidence. All the picks on defense, and it never fails to disappoint. I don't see how this will change (other than 34 year-old Miller-- whenever he returns). Very little cap space for free agents, so they are in a really tough spot.

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4 minutes ago, par73 said:

Beane press conference was disappointing. He pretty much gave Dorsey and Frazier votes of confidence. All the picks on defense, and it never fails to disappoint. I don't see how this will change (other than 34 year-old Miller-- whenever he returns). Very little cap space for free agents, so they are in a really tough spot.

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In hindsight the massive aging Miller contract was a bad move.  120m for a 33 year old?  We constantly talk about teams overpaying for an aging Poyer, who is younger than Von, yet they somehow get a pass signing an aging Von.  Its no shock that he is hurt, just like Poyer and Hyde. That contract is going to strap the cap starting right now, and we can't get rid of it.  Fwiw, I was against it when we paid him that massive contract, for the reasons I mentioned above.  I know he played well when he played, but thats kind of my point, when he played.  Where was he during the playoffs?  The same place an aging Hyde and almost Poyer were at.  If you have to not play a player "to preserve him for the playoffs" because of their age, you shouldn't be signing them to massive contracts.  Especially when you have used 2 1st and 2 2nds in the draft recently to rush the passer

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33 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

No

No

Undecided

 

They have done a good job with some talent development, but not with others.  It's a mixed bag but recently not for the better. Tre was an amazing pick and development, Rouseau I like a lot,  Milano excellent, Taron Johnson solid... but between Oliver, Basham, Epenesa, Edmunds, Bernard, just bad job especially Oliver so overrated by this board sometimes dude is merely just another guy low impact undersized DT. Elam has little impact but too early to call. Wallace was solid when he was here. 

 

The last 4 drafts have been pretty bad though, aside from Allen obviously. A guy here or there but very few impact our reliable guys. 

 

2022:

Bernard's barely played so i can't just say he is a bad player.  He is not edmunds replacement though, that i think was clear

Elam seems to have some man coverage chops, mcdermott was on this kid for something all year - effort maybe? defensive responsibilities?  

Benford looked totally solid until he got hit with some injuries.  Isn't fast enough to stick at corner in man though, i think with his size/tackling he would be a good fit at safety with a full offseason.  

Spector hopefully replaces matakevich as a core teamer on a budget

 

2021:

Rousseau - one of the better pass rushers in his class, also a fairly sound run defender with length

Basham - I like him better than AJ.  He's not a good run defender despite having some size on the edge.  Plays with some anger and violence.  Probably a luxury pick in a situation where we knew Wallace was in his last year, knew morse had concussion issues, 

 

2020:

Epenesa - Looking at this similar to Rousseau - first round production but later round tape.  Rousseau has some freak attributes that project though, epenesa is slow and plays small.  Raekwon davis at the nose is what i was hoping for.  Chinn would have been cool too. 

 

2019:

Oliver - Hindsight probably wilkins or lawrence?

Joseph - Never played.  Next 2 LBs off the board are Greenlaw and Van Ginkel.  Pretty big swing and a miss here.  

 

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Many of us haven't trusted the defense for multiple years. Then we get told to look at their ranking  and say we arent real fans.  The defense has always been a fraud. We all see it. They feast on terrible QB play making the rankings look good. Then they suck when they play physical teams or teams with great QBs. Houston playoff game, Colts, 13 seconds, Miami 3rd string QB...

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I can no longer ignore the trend that against competent offenses, we leak yards and points. Against elite offenses, we get lit the f up. 

 

What Cinci did to us I saw the Patriots do it us for years, and yes this was before then during McDermott: run basic plays. Easy underneath that the other quarterback always makes, receiver picks up 3-5 YAC guaranteed. Run the ball at will, right down our throat. 1 on 1 on the outside is identified, they take a shot. Rinse and repeat.

 

Does this defense require all pros littered throughout all three levels to function? Is that a reasonable ask?

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A Rook can't move diagonally.

A Bishop can't move vertically.

A King can only move one space at a time.

 

Players can only carry out the game plan being called. I swear I can't recall the last time I saw a team so out coached than I did on Sunday. 

 

The Bengals coaching staff took McD, Frazier and Dorsey behind the woodshed and beat them senseless, and then probably did unspeakable things to boot.

 

Outside of maybe WR they aren't the better team IMO, but they were the better coached and we were all witness to it.

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I trust the players.  They started hot, they showed they could do it.  Far from elite, but enough to get the job done.  Critical injuries hurt.

 

That being said...

 

The 'D' got figured out, exposed and exploited.  The schemes were mundane with no imagination and no adjustments.  It's like the plan was to stick to the original plan and hope things turn around.

 

New coach, new schemes and I think this 'D' is good enough.  Not elite, just...good enough.

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6 hours ago, Repulsif said:

I trust the players

I don't trust the defensive scheme they're put in

( I also suspect players themselves didn't trust the scheme, but it was ok as long as they were winning

The players are generally there because they fit the scheme. The scheme first, the players second. 
And yes, it is a fine scheme and a tremendous group of players to execute it. It’s a scheme that got us to 13-3 and very nearly the top seed in the playoffs. It is also a scheme that allowed A lot of more marginal players to be hidden when stars (Hyde, Von) went down. 
Does it work well against high-powered offenses that don’t make many mistakes? No. We’ve seen that. But short of making wholesale changes to personnel (and particularly since we’re likely to have less, not more, in the way of impact playmakers over the next couple seasons with no Von, Poyer, and maybe Hyde), I don’t see a realistic option to change things. My realistic (partial) solution: plan on the Chiefs/Bengals/even a healthy Dolphins to hang 30 on is, and try like hell to get to 35 on offense. Shootout or bust, at least for now. 

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I have issues with the 12 “yes” responses to question 3. 
 

But my mind is blown that anyone can say “no” to questions 1 and 2 and yes to question 3. Being good at 3 is what gives you 1 and 2. 
 

And we flat out STINK at 3. 

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We hear the word physical all the time and that's just not what we are. A base nickle is not a physical alignment and rarely is zone defense. Physical defense is numbers in the box, press, and a general willingness to get beat deep in order to disrupt timing. These are things we rarely do. On Offense we can't establish a run game and Josh isn't a dink and dunk QB. So if you slow down his rush game we struggle to control the ball which just compounds things on the other side.    

 

Perhaps what discourages me the most with both these concepts is they stay rather hidden in the data which can always be used as a reason to ignore or not acknowledge the issue. Each year we have a top rated defense and one of the better rush offenses as far as output, but in this case it's not what you did, it's how you did that is our demise. The issue to me is much more clear than pass rushers. We need to be a more physical team on both sides.  

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7 hours ago, Mango said:

I think its time McD take over play calling full time. Start there. 

Philly runs the same scheme. It isn't a cover 3 issue. It is calling the right defense at the right times. 

Philly has the horses. They had the horses in 2017 as well.

 

We haven't had the horses since 2014.

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8 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Please explain in detail what the counter punch is to getting out-physicalled on the defensive line all game? What are you doing schematically to overcome that?

Go watch cover 1’s YouTube video about the last game. Very informative watch , and to me , if this doesn’t spell the end of this scheme and Frazier , I personally have no hope they will make it further than their 4-5 playoff record has proven to be their ceiling.
There were moments when cincy and burrows could not move the ball.  Unfortunately the coverages and schemes that were successful that day were used less than 10, maybe less than 5 % of the snaps.   Then Frazier/ Mcd reverted to coverages that Burrows was abusing and the players were put in horrible positions.  

I am not saying the talent is not lacking , it really is. Yet it’s amazing they had a 14-4 record , so scheme can effect most teams even with our very average talent , until you face good coaching staffs with players and qbs who can execute their counters well.  Not arguing the out played / physical part , but even with good talent , if Frazier is allowed to keep complicating the defensive reads so much and refuses to use what was working , he will continue to cost this team progressing even with elite talent as they will only play if they do what they are told to do ; they are not going to let players just free lance regardless of their talent.  Miller was even placed on a rotating basis as a 2x SB champ , hof talent.  This is about Mcd / Frazier changing to playing complicated, scared coverages at playoff time.  

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