Poor coaching by McDermott is becoming a theme

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

A coaching staff should be judged on the overall body of work.  

Not cherry-picking certain plays that succeeded, and others that didn't.  All while looking in 20/20 hindsight.

 

Part of play-calling is knowing your own strengths/weaknesses.  Part is knowing your opponent's strengths/weaknesses.  Part is knowing the game situation.  Part is trying to outsmart the guy on the other sideline.  It's not an exact science.  Sometimes you guess wrong, and the other team makes a play.  

 

As a whole, Sean McDermott/Leslie Frazier have fielded a Top 5 defense for 4 straight seasons.  During that span, the Bills have had arguably the best past defense in the entire NFL.  They have turned UDFA and late round picks into solid CBs, and no-name free agent signings into All-Pros.  We are lucky to have them.

 

I for the most apart agree entirely, but one point of correction we were not a top 5 defense in 2020. We were in 2018, 2019 and last year. We will be again this year. 

[Billsfan1972]

11 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

A coaching staff should be judged on the overall body of work.  

Not cherry-picking certain plays that succeeded, and others that didn't.  All while looking in 20/20 hindsight.

 

Part of play-calling is knowing your own strengths/weaknesses.  Part is knowing your opponent's strengths/weaknesses.  Part is knowing the game situation.  Part is trying to outsmart the guy on the other sideline.  It's not an exact science.  Sometimes you guess wrong, and the other team makes a play.  

 

As a whole, Sean McDermott/Leslie Frazier have fielded a Top 5 defense for 4 straight seasons.  During that span, the Bills have had arguably the best past defense in the entire NFL.  They have turned UDFA and late round picks into solid CBs, and no-name free agent signings into All-Pros.  We are lucky to have them.

 

No they drafted Allen.....  Like Brady with Belichek(once the Bills won SBs), Allen covers up a lot.  

 

And still he had Peterman penciled in as his #1.  Never will forget that.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

Blaming coaching is the absolute laziest take a sports fan can have.

 

Defensive backs fail to knock the ball down on a Hail Mary?  It's the fault of the coaches!

Receiver jukes around instead of quickly dropping to the ground with 9 seconds left?  It's the fault of the coaches!

Challenge a play that probably won't get overturned?  It's the fault of the head coach!

Don't challenge a play that probably won't get overturned?  It's the fault of the head coach!

 

Every time a play call doesn't work... they were being too conservative.  Or too aggressive.  Or too predictable.  Or they should have just stuck with what they usually do best.  The last two weeks, everyone was praising us and saying we are totally unstoppable because of #17.  This week we are clueless idiots because we rely too much on Josh Allen carrying the offense.  If a player commits a penalty or makes a mistake... it's always because the coach didn't have them prepared or focused.  Because of course, it's the coach's job to remind the millionaire who has been playing football his entire life not to jump offside or hold on a crucial drive.

 

Now the armchair geniuses are criticizing Leslie Frazier for the 3rd-22.  Because he didn't bring enough pressure.  Even though the Bills had the highest pressure rate in the entire NFL with hardly any blitzes through two weeks AND had a totally inexperienced secondary.  Of course if he blitzed and got burned, we would be hearing how stupid he was to leave our backup DBs alone against the fastest WRs in the league on such a crucial play.  I'm even reading some comparisons to 13 seconds, even though this time we got beat over the top... which is exactly the opposite of what happened in the playoffs.

 

 

Except I didn’t list or mention any of your examples.

 

I listed examples that ARE coaching.

 

It is intellectually dishonest to change the original post to suit your needs.

1 hour ago, cas22 said:

Im gonna disagree here, as a former coach there are 2 ways to coach in that situation, aggressive or safe, McD and Frazier always choose safe, if you depleted at the back end of your defense you don't make them make the play, they should have blitz which would have made TUA get rid of the ball quicker most likely a slant or a out pattern is what he would had to throw, our true strength on this defense is the d-line and we protect it.. we blitzed 1 time and TUA got sacked in a hurry...

 

 we did the same thing against KC with 13 seconds left, rushed 3 and gave the QB time, thats the key time, the reason we lost Sunday was because Allen was getting blitzed on every play, it disrupted his throws and it showed, the were aggressive and won we play safe on defense...and lost...      

 

I see your point but I don’t necessarily have a problem with him not blitzing in that situation.

 

My problem was him playing shallow coverage with 10 out of 11 defensive players playing in front of the first down marker.

 

It made it easy for the Dolphins to have not 1, but 2 wide open receivers past the marker.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, cas22 said:

again gonna have to disagree here, our defense didn't shut anyone down, the offense kept there offense off the feild  40 minutes of possession is why Hill looked like *****.. it wasn't the defense that shut them down. 

 

This is an excellent point.

 

The Dolphins had less total yards but that’s because our offense wouldn’t let them get on the field.

 

The Dolphins averaged the same yards per play we did (5.4 vs 5.5).

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, GimmeSomeProcess said:

#1 in point differential last season, #5 in 2020 and shaping up for a top 5 finish this season. Horrible coach I tell ya, HORRIBLE

 

Last season and the year before doesn't matter anymore.  It is what you do now that does, as in this season.      

 

This is the problem after the 17 straight years of missing the playoffs.  Being a perennial playoff team and being relevant (i.e. getting national attention) has now become satisfactory.  But to stay in the conversation it's gonna take getting to the SB, not falling in another divisional game.  

 

Because going from being a ~.500 team and making the playoffs is a lot smaller leap than it is to go from playoff team to a SB contender.    

 

Right now, this coaching staff is showing their vision for how to play football is flawed in some respects.  They turtle when the big moment arrives and that's on the HC and his staff.  

[teef]

it's 3 games in you stupid *****.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, teef said:

it's 3 games in you stupid *****.

 

Complainers when the Bills win.

 

Complainers after a Bills loss.

 

[Einstein]

7 minutes ago, teef said:

it's 3 games in you stupid *****.

 

Its 5 years of McD.

 

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Guess you missed the point.

 

I had to ignore Royale With Cheese. He is not interested in critical thinking or rational debate. He only wants to mock posters for not agreeing with him.

 

.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Einstein

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Guess you missed the point.

 

No I didn't.  We have a great offense.  We aren't perfect, like no offense is.  The #1 stat is points per game in which we are at the top.

We are also at the top of several offensive categories but you're going to find one that we struggle with and tell us over and over and over again.  

 

You get more aggressive with your negativity after a loss but pretty silent after a win.  I wonder why that is.

[teef]

15 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Complainers when the Bills win.

 

Complainers after a Bills loss.

 

after two winning games, we had poster who were complaining that they couldn't complain.  that's all you have to know.

14 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Its 5 years of McD.

 

 

 

 

 

yes.  and?  

[What a Tuel]

36 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

This is an excellent point.

 

The Dolphins had less total yards but that’s because our offense wouldn’t let them get on the field.

 

The Dolphins averaged the same yards per play we did (5.4 vs 5.5).

 

Is it though? The dolphins offense were in fact on the field during the game and the defense did this. That was pretty impressive given the status of the defense.

 

Punt 2:26

TD (off Josh Allen Fumble from 6 yard line) 1:36

TD 5:14

Punt 2:09

Punt 1:58

Punt 1:40

TD 4:04

Punt 0:13

 

Edit, I'll just add the drive times bc it shows the defense got the Miami offense off the field quickly.

Edited September 27, 2022 by What a Tuel

[Augie]

36 minutes ago, teef said:

after two winning games, we had poster who were complaining that they couldn't complain.  that's all you have to know.

yes.  and?  

 

And…….. we are the Super Bowl favorites. WE SUCK!!!

 

 

.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Augie

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Is it though? The dolphins offense were in fact on the field during the game and the defense did this. That was pretty impressive given the status of the defense.

 

Punt 2:26

TD (off Josh Allen Fumble from 6 yard line) 1:36

TD 5:14

Punt 2:09

Punt 1:58

Punt 1:40

TD 4:04

Punt 0:13

 

Edit, I'll just add the drive times bc it shows the defense got the Miami offense off the field quickly.

 

Allen double clutched with his foot on that 4th down pass to McKenzie.  I wonder if his legs just gave or something.  

[Brand J]

For those defending the play call on 3rd and 22, I most certainly wasn’t advocating for a blitz, but to rush 3 and ONLY have two inexperienced safeties deep against the fastest pair of wide outs in the league is indefensible. I criticize the call because of its timid approach. Rush four, play 2 safeties deep and have your corners play off coverage against their two star wide outs. Whatever you want to do with the remaining 3 coverage players, fine, but that was an incredibly dumb play call on 3rd and 22. Whatever. It’s over. But I’m sure the ultra conservative, timid approach will happen again this season at some point.

[Shaw66]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I didn't love the Allen run call down there. That was a bad call. Shotgun runs in that situation always baffle me. But the coaches did call a touchdown play on 4th down that Josh just missed. 

Agree.  They can't rely on Josh as part of the running game.  It isn't as effective as it was, and it's something that all teams are prepared for in the red zone now.  On improvised scrambles, sure, but every team is looking for those option plays down there.   Plus, it's clear that they're trying to run him less, and he's sliding more, and that's all necessary as he matures.  They need an effective, standard running game, which is what supports your argument that the real problem is that they continue to allocated too few resources to the offensive line.  They thought that they had enough talent for Kromer to work with, but so far that seems to be incorrect. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

For those defending the play call on 3rd and 22, I most certainly wasn’t advocating for a blitz, but to rush 3 and ONLY have two inexperienced safeties deep against the fastest pair of wide outs in the league is indefensible. I criticize the call because of its timid approach. Rush four, play 2 safeties deep and have your corners play off coverage against their two star wide outs. Whatever you want to do with the remaining 3 coverage players, fine, but that was an incredibly dumb play call on 3rd and 22. Whatever. It’s over. But I’m sure the ultra conservative, timid approach will happen again this season at some point.

It's a recurring theme and what's troubling is the pattern of repeating the same type of error in the face of overwhelming evidence that the strategy is faulty and ineffective at the most critical moments. 

[billsfan1959]

4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

For those defending the play call on 3rd and 22, I most certainly wasn’t advocating for a blitz, but to rush 3 and ONLY have two inexperienced safeties deep against the fastest pair of wide outs in the league is indefensible. I criticize the call because of its timid approach. Rush four, play 2 safeties deep and have your corners play off coverage against their two star wide outs. Whatever you want to do with the remaining 3 coverage players, fine, but that was an incredibly dumb play call on 3rd and 22. Whatever. It’s over. But I’m sure the ultra conservative, timid approach will happen again this season at some point.

Since Beane and Frazier have been together, that is the very first time a team has gotten a 1st down on a 1st and 20+ 

 

It happens. The fact that the secondary they patched together only gave up one big play is remarkable 

[Dr.Sack]

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

For those defending the play call on 3rd and 22, I most certainly wasn’t advocating for a blitz, but to rush 3 and ONLY have two inexperienced safeties deep against the fastest pair of wide outs in the league is indefensible. I criticize the call because of its timid approach. Rush four, play 2 safeties deep and have your corners play off coverage against their two star wide outs. Whatever you want to do with the remaining 3 coverage players, fine, but that was an incredibly dumb play call on 3rd and 22. Whatever. It’s over. But I’m sure the ultra conservative, timid approach will happen again this season at some point.

And that is the problem. 3rd and 22 4th Qtr 11:37 to go ball on Miami 48. First down is at the BUF 30. The Bills lead 17-14. 

 

What was the thinking? Drop a DL to spy on the outlet pass or QB sneak. I believe Rousseau dropped into coverage. McDaniels dialed up a great play that split our safeties. Cover 1 offered a great analysis on this play. Tua is not running for it, and our LBs should be able to prevent any dump off. A FG ties it, ad TD was the worst possible outcome. Rule #1 with Miami, don't let them get over the top. 

[Brand J]

15 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Since Beane and Frazier have been together, that is the very first time a team has gotten a 1st down on a 1st and 20+ 

 

It happens. The fact that the secondary they patched together only gave up one big play is remarkable 

The secondary played admirably and I commend them for it, but that playcall did them no favors. I suppose I would’nt be as upset if it was the first conservative approach that the Bills have been beaten on, but to see the pattern over and over in big moments is what has me at a loss. Ask yourself this, could you imagine being a defensive coordinator who’s playing the Bills and you rush 3 against a 3rd and 20+ while only leaving your two inexperienced safeties deep? I think everyone here would thank that defensive coordinator for the gift - you’ve just afforded Allen all the time in the world to hit Diggs or Davis over the top - but because it’s Frazier and he’s employed by the Bills, he gets more leeway.

Edited September 27, 2022 by JayBaller10

[Einstein]

39 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Is it though? The dolphins offense were in fact on the field during the game and the defense did this. That was pretty impressive given the status of the defense.

 

Punt 2:26

TD (off Josh Allen Fumble from 6 yard line) 1:36

TD 5:14

Punt 2:09

Punt 1:58

Punt 1:40

TD 4:04

Punt 0:13

 

Edit, I'll just add the drive times bc it shows the defense got the Miami offense off the field quickly.

 

The Dolphins averaged the same yards per play we did (5.4 vs 5.5).

 

There is no getting around that. It’s a fact. 

 

They also scored more points than our offense.

 

I would say the biggest difference in drives is that the Bills went for 3 fourth downs. Dolphins elected to punt in those situations instead.

[billsfan1959]

Just now, JayBaller10 said:

The secondary played admirably and I commend them for it, but that playcall did them no favors. I suppose I would’nt be as upset if it was the first conservative approach that the Bills have been beaten on, but to see the pattern over and over in big moments is what has me at a loss. Ask yourself this, could you imagine being a defensive coordinator who’s playing the Bills and you rush 3 against a 3rd and 20+ while only leaving your two inexperienced safeties deep? I think everyone here would thank that defensive coordinator for the gift, but because it’s Frazier and he’s employed by the Bills, he gets more leeway.

Sorry, but I’m just going to agree to disagree here. Frazier and McDermott know what they are doing and their track record in how their defenses have played in Buffalo are proof of that. Big plays are going to happen and they happen to every team. Sometimes they happen in big moments. That is football.

[Wayne Arnold]

19 hours ago, MJS said:

Then you are drunk. There is a 0.0% chance that McDermott will be on the hot seat after this year if they don't make the superbowl.

 

You clearly do not follow the league. You suffer from Bills myopia.

 

McDermott is already getting heat from some of the biggest national media figures (Cowherd, Florio)...after ONE LOSS.

 

When you're the head coach of the Super Bowl favorites the pressure is on you. And people aren't going to forget 13 seconds. 

 

You don't live in reality if you think McDermott's seat won't be scorching hot if he falls short of expectations. 

[What a Tuel]

8 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

The Dolphins averaged the same yards per play we did (5.4 vs 5.5).

 

There is no getting around that. It’s a fact. 

 

They also scored more points than our offense.

 

I would say the biggest difference in drives is that the Bills went for 3 fourth downs. Dolphins elected to punt in those situations instead.

 

I guess I am not understanding why yards per play for our offense has anything to do with our depleted defense holding the vaunted dolphins offensive with "the 2 best receivers" to short drives resulting in punts? It was impressive regardless of a comparison to how our offense did?

[FilthyBeast]

3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Sorry, but I’m just going to agree to disagree here. Frazier and McDermott know what they are doing and their track record in how their defenses have played in Buffalo are proof of that. Big plays are going to happen and they happen to every team. Sometimes they happen in big moments. That is football.

 

The problem is that the big plays against this defense happen at crucial moments, whether it's the playoffs in KC or moments that swing the momentum for good like Miami last week.

 

This is why I maintain this team is never going to the promised land with McDermott. This defense always looks great on paper in terms of the overall stats, but it simply doesn't work when it matters most. And situational football awareness is simply not something McD can handle.

[What a Tuel]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

McDermott is already getting heat from some of the biggest national media figures (Cowherd, Florio)...after ONE LOSS.

 

When you're the head coach of the Super Bowl favorites the pressure is on you. And people aren't going to forget 13 seconds. 

 

You don't live in reality if you think McDermott's seat won't be scorching hot if he falls short of expectations. 

 

National talking heads dont have anything to do with how hot mcdermott's seat will get. They can talk about it all they want, McDermott isn't going anywhere so long as we continue to compete deep into the playoffs.

[Wayne Arnold]

1 minute ago, What a Tuel said:

 

National talking heads dont have anything to do with how hot mcdermott's seat will get. They can talk about it all they want, McDermott isn't going anywhere so long as we continue to compete deep into the playoffs.

 

Based on what?

[Royale with Cheese]

8 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

The Dolphins averaged the same yards per play we did (5.4 vs 5.5).

 

There is no getting around that. It’s a fact. 

 

They also scored more points than our offense.

 

I would say the biggest difference in drives is that the Bills went for 3 fourth downs. Dolphins elected to punt in those situations instead.

 

You're nitpicking one stat...yards per play.  Why is that a strong argument?  The Ravens averaged almost a full yard more per play than the Dolphins and still lost.

 

Of course they punted.  They stalled them on 4 drives and we weren't getting stalled.  We ran 90 offensive plays.

- First punt was at their own 35.  

- 2nd punt was 4th and 10.

- The 1 yard line

- 4th and 11

 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

This is fair… however the 4th and 4 FG attempt up by three is classic McD having absolutely no feel for the game….anyone with a pulse watching that game could sense they needed 7 there to put the game away. 6 point lead felt like nothing… and Bass missed the kick anyway.

 

Yea I said at the time in the Game Day thread I thought they should have gone for that. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Based on what?

 

The fact the Pegulas are absolutely committed to him. Their history of hiring competent coaches across two teams is extremely thin. They have hired one - Sean McDermott. He is not getting fired this year with another playoff season even if it is another gut wrenching playoff loss. 

 

The only way he is fired after this season is the team having a losing record. And even then if it is because we lose 10 or 11 starters to injury he will be safe. 

[Wayne Arnold]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The fact the Pegulas are absolutely committed to him. Their history of hiring competent coaches across two teams is extremely thin. They have hired one - Sean McDermott. He is not getting fired this year with another playoff season even if it is another gut wrenching playoff loss. 

 

The only way he is fired after this season is the team having a losing record. And even then if it is because we lose 10 or 11 starters to injury he will be safe. 

 

No one said anything about him being fired this season, to my knowledge. It's about the pressure on him going into 2023.

[FilthyBeast]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

The fact the Pegulas are absolutely committed to him. Their history of hiring competent coaches across two teams is extremely thin. They have hired one - Sean McDermott. He is not getting fired this year with another playoff season even if it is another gut wrenching playoff loss. 

 

The only way he is fired after this season is the team having a losing record. And even then if it is because we lose 10 or 11 starters to injury he will be safe. 

 

Why do fans keep insisting they know what the Pegulas are thinking in regards to McDermott/Beane?

 

Obviously after one loss nothing is going to change and nor should it, but there are many scenarios come January in which they could change their minds very quick which have been discussed on here.

 

Also recent extensions mean nothing when it comes to NFL head coaches and GM's as there have been many canned within a year after signing them and both McD and Beane know that.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Is it though? The dolphins offense were in fact on the field during the game and the defense did this. That was pretty impressive given the status of the defense.

 

Punt 2:26

TD (off Josh Allen Fumble from 6 yard line) 1:36

TD 5:14

Punt 2:09

Punt 1:58

Punt 1:40

TD 4:04

Punt 0:13

 

Edit, I'll just add the drive times bc it shows the defense got the Miami offense off the field quickly.

Well one of those punts was when tua went down and one was when the offense pinned them on the goal line late in the game and they were trying not to take too many risks.  So realistically they scored tds on about half their possessions although one was a short field.  Elam did a nice job on tyreek though so that’s a good sign 

[billsfan1959]

31 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

The Dolphins averaged the same yards per play we did (5.4 vs 5.5).

 

There is no getting around that. It’s a fact. 

 

They also scored more points than our offense.

 

I would say the biggest difference in drives is that the Bills went for 3 fourth downs. Dolphins elected to punt in those situations instead.

The Fins couldn’t gain more than 20 yards on 4 of their 7 drives and were gifted a TD on another drive. Most of their yards came on 2 plays - both against players that probably wouldn’t be on the field in any other circumstances. If you take away those 2 plays they averaged 2.1 YPP for the game. Take away Buffalo’s 2 biggest plays and they still averaged 5 YPP.

 

As I have said before, Miami is a good team and they made every big play they had the opportunity to make yesterday. But they needed (1) to make every one of those plays, (2) the Bills to be short handed 7-10 starters at any given moment of the game, (3) Buffalo’s offense to make all the mistakes they made, and (4) Buffalo’s offense to be absolutely gassed in the 4th qtr because of the weather and being on the field so long - just to win by 2 points.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by billsfan1959

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Why do fans keep insisting they know what the Pegulas are thinking in regards to McDermott/Beane?

 

Obviously after one loss nothing is going to change and nor should it, but there are many scenarios come January in which they could change their minds very quick which have been discussed on here.

 

Also recent extensions mean nothing when it comes to NFL head coaches and GM's as there have been many canned within a year after signing them and both McD and Beane know that.

 

Because some fans speak to people who have reason to have more than the average person's insight into what the situation within the organisation is. McDermott is on rock solid ground. 

[What a Tuel]

19 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Based on what?

 

Based on the idea that unknown coach x will not only put us in the position that both Beane and McDermott have put us in year after year consistently being in super bowl discussions, but win us super bowls.

 

Put another way, why do you think unknown coach x will be better? Why rock that boat? We are competitive.

 

I mean isn't it that only 2 head coaches have multiple super bowl wins this millennium? Do we really think we are trending the wrong direction to achieve at least one to just go ahead and blow it all up?

Edited September 27, 2022 by What a Tuel

[billsfan1959]

20 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

The problem is that the big plays against this defense happen at crucial moments, whether it's the playoffs in KC or moments that swing the momentum for good like Miami last week.

 

This is why I maintain this team is never going to the promised land with McDermott. This defense always looks great on paper in terms of the overall stats, but it simply doesn't work when it matters most. And situational football awareness is simply not something McD can handle.

Factoring in the 13 seconds in the KC game and the 3rd and 22 in The Mia game, I would have to say they are still much better at calling defensive game plans than you are at evaluating them.

[billieve420]

My biggest issue with McDermott/Frazier defensive calls is not staying aggressive and attacking the other team. Instead they play passive and get beat on 3rd and longs constantly. This is not something new with this team and needs to be fixed. Force the QB to take the short play and make the tackle. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by billieve420

[oldmanfan]

Einstein starting threads that are the polar opposite of his user name are becoming a theme

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, What a Tuel said:

 

I guess I am not understanding why yards per play for our offense has anything to do with our depleted defense holding the vaunted dolphins offensive with "the 2 best receivers" to short drives resulting in punts? It was impressive regardless of a comparison to how our offense did?

 

Was the Dolphins defense impressive to you on Sunday?

[teef]

what kind of pornography would i have to post to get this shut down?