Doctor on Buffalo Fanatics discussing Tre White recovery - link removed

[Big Turk]

 Considering the Bills have erred on the side of caution even with relatively minor injuries like pulls, etc, I would not expect Tre to be back until there is no doubt he is healthy enough to go without having any issues with the knee.

 

No way they are going to risk rushing him back when it's another 9 months if he reinjures it.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Big Turk

[Big Blitz]

On Godwin, yesterday:

 

 

 

But, the question now is, will he be ready for Week 1 when the Bucs travel to face the Dallas Cowboys to start the new season?

 

He might, but he might not, and according to head coach Todd Bowles, the team isn't prioritizing their want for No. 14 to be in the game in Week 1, over the player and team's long-term needs. 

 

"He doesn't have to be ready," Bowles said about his star receiver. "We want him for the long haul. We don't want him running around, looking good, and then getting hurt...We're not rushing him by no means."

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/buccaneers/news/buccaneers-not-pressing-chris-godwin-to-play-week-1

 

He was never placed on the PUP list.  Tre was.  

Edited August 11, 2022 by Big Blitz

[Big Blitz]

Is there any data that we can use to understand what Chris Godwin is trying to do? Is it even possible to come back from an ACL and MCL repair in only seven months? Seems crazy. Any precedent on this? Any info on Godwin’s health outlook from your POV? — Angelo S.

 

There are a few general guidelines and rules of thumb when evaluating wide receivers who are coming back from ACL injuries:

 

The younger the athlete is, the better chance they have to return to their pre-injury level

 

In the first year back they are at a much higher risk of injury — not just the knee, but the surrounding muscles (hamstring, quad, groin)

 

Expect a drop in performance in the first season back, but many return to their pre-injury level in the second season

 

When there is additional damage (which is the case with Godwin, as he also tore the MCL), the recovery typically takes longer, and that means more time to get back to 100%

 

The risk of re-injury is significantly higher in the first nine months following surgery, so playing before then is a huge risk

 

So what does all of this mean for Chris Godwin? He underwent surgery almost exactly seven months ago and just stepped foot on the practice field for the first time. Godwin is wearing a brace on his right knee. He says he feels great, and his doctors believe he has made enough progress to ramp up his activity level. I’m OK with all of this, but the Bucs need to bring him along slowly.

 

Playing in September would be a huge risk as he won’t hit the nine-month mark until Week 5. Godwin seems to be right where he needs to be, he just shouldn’t play in a game until October. It’s not just his knee that is at risk; we often see players suffer a muscular strain soon after returning. Getting strength back in the legs is a crucial part of rehab, and it can take over a year for that to happen. 

 

https://theathletic.com/3486813/2022/08/08/nfl-injury-mailbag-pumping-the-brakes-on-chris-godwin-dalvin-cook-and-more/

[buffalostu2]

14 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

Making a prognosis on the basis of what?  News reports?  I'm glad he's not my doctor.

 

He is not prescribing treatment, he is just analyzing based on what he sees and his knowledge of the recovery process.  Isn't that the same thing everyone of us does on this forum except we don't have a related degree? 

 

If you listen to him on a weekly basis, he does a good job of analyzing injuries based on how they occur.  Is it speculation, yes, but more accurate that what flies around this forum from us.

[26TrapDraw]

12 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

I’m a doc. Everyone is different when it comes to recovery from any injury. I think Week 1 is a pipe dream unless Tre has had a remarkable recovery and they are comfortable giving him a few reps to start to come back. This staff is appropriately conservative when it comes to recovery from injuries so I’m not concerned at all they will rush him back too quick.

 

 

Thanks for the insight Doctor. I have these painful bumps on my Wedding Tackle. Any Advice?

[Warcodered]

Just now, BeefCurtns said:

Thanks for the insight Doctor. I have these painful bumps on my Wedding Tackle. Any Advice?

Probably going to have to amputate.

[26TrapDraw]

6 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Probably going to have to amputate.

Hope he's good with small scalpels.

[RunTheBall]

6 minutes ago, BeefCurtns said:

Thanks for the insight Doctor. I have these painful bumps on my Wedding Tackle. Any Advice?

Monkey pox. Wear a glove

[Beck Water]

16 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

I removed the link as many pointed out reasonably that a random doctor watching some video is not a great means for judging Tre’s recovery. Sorry for the waste of time post.

 

Dude, your OP has no content aside from the link, so if you're going to pull the link why not delete the thread altogether?  The link is quoted in several posts anyway. 

 

It's a point that Buffalo Fanatics is a fan show and a random doc with the handle @ThighDoctor on twitter isn't 1) giving us his credentials to judge ACL recovery and 2) is making a judgement from a couple quick clips of Tre - and when we see Tre out on the practice field doing sprints or jump downs or whatever, we have no clue whether those are the first activities that he did on his knee that day, or whether he already did a couple hours of PT and a leg workout - and that matters to interpreting what you see.

 

But it's still valid to hear about the little observations on technique while running and jumping not being normal yet for Tre'

 

 

5 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

Monkey pox. Wear a glove

 

How about a tube sock?

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Who was the doctor?  Was it David “The San Diego Butcher” Chao?

 

Nah, some dude calling himself @ThighDoctor on the Twitters. 

 

Can't find anything else about his background other than he says he's a "thigh specialist"

 

He seems to make some decent observations, like pointing out that while Jordan Poyer has been seen just wearing a sleeve on the sidelines, he's back to wearing a big 'ol brace when working out on the side field.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Beck Water

[Mr. WEO]

16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Dude, your OP has no content aside from the link, so if you're going to pull the link why not delete the thread altogether?  The link is quoted in several posts anyway. 

 

It's a point that Buffalo Fanatics is a fan show and a random doc with the handle @ThighDoctor on twitter isn't 1) giving us his credentials to judge ACL recovery and 2) is making a judgement from a couple quick clips of Tre - and when we see Tre out on the practice field doing sprints or jump downs or whatever, we have no clue whether those are the first activities that he did on his knee that day, or whether he already did a couple hours of PT and a leg workout - and that matters to interpreting what you see.

 

But it's still valid to hear about the little observations on technique while running and jumping not being normal yet for Tre'

 

 

 

How about a tube sock?

 

Nah, some dude calling himself @ThighDoctor on the Twitters. 

 

Can't find anything else about his background other than he says he's a "thigh specialist"

 

He seems to make some decent observations, like pointing out that while Jordan Poyer has been seen just wearing a sleeve on the sidelines, he's back to wearing a big 'ol brace when working out on the side field.

@Thighspecialist is Watson seeking massage therapist IG account

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Sounds like he’s right on track to practice soon. My prediction all along has been practicing in august with no setbacks. Then we go from there. If everything goes well there’s no reason he won’t be on the field week 1 in some capacity. 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Royale with Cheese]

What I don't understand about the theory of letting him sit longer to make sure his knee is good....

 

If the ligament is healed 100%, it can't heal anymore.  So if it's 100% right now, what would the purpose be to have him sit another 8 weeks?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

What I don't understand about the theory of letting him sit longer to make sure his knee is good....

 

If the ligament is healed 100%, it can't heal anymore.  So if it's 100% right now, what would the purpose be to have him sit another 8 weeks?

None at all. The best thing for White is getting over the mental hurdles of playing after the injury. You only do that by playing. I think he’ll practice for 2-3 weeks and the the Bills will make a decision. 4 week IR is possible but with no setbacks they could decide to just rotate him into the lineup slowly. Maybe 10 snaps week 1, 15 week 2, 25 week 3 and so on…

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

None at all. The best thing for White is getting over the mental hurdles of playing after the injury. You only do that by playing. I think he’ll practice for 2-3 weeks and the the Bills will make a decision. 4 week IR is possible but with no setbacks they could decide to just rotate him into the lineup slowly. Maybe 10 snaps week 1, 15 week 2, 25 week 3 and so on…

 

I think he will too.  Probably put him on a pitch count in the first game or two for cardio reasons.  

 

I'm willing to bet a dollar he's suited up week 1.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Royale with Cheese

[Augie]

10 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

What I don't understand about the theory of letting him sit longer to make sure his knee is good....

 

If the ligament is healed 100%, it can't heal anymore.  So if it's 100% right now, what would the purpose be to have him sit another 8 weeks?

 

I think the word “healed” would have to be defined. It’s a matter of degrees when it comes to strengthening the ACL and surrounding muscle groups, I suppose. Our son tore his ACL and MCL in HS football. I was shocked by the atrophy and how quickly his leg visibly shrank.

 

Having said that, we took him out of state for surgery with a sports specialist and his physical therapist moved on to do research at UVA after his rehab. These guys really knew what they are doing, like the Bills people. He had surgery on June 24 and played in a Thanksgiving basketball tournament. No, he was definitely not 100% himself, but that’s only 5 months and I find that shocking! Of course, the NFL is not high school basketball, but I’m still amazed. I remember when a torn ACL meant you might be done forever. It’s still bad, but how far they have come in recent decades is miraculous. 

 

The physical part is obviously serious so you avoid setbacks, but learning to really trust that knee again is a battle in itself. 

 

 

[Gugny]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think he will too.  Probably put him on a pitch count in the first game or two for cardio reasons.  

 

I'm willing to be a dollar he's suited up week 1.

 

A Loonie or a real dollar?

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

A Loonie or a real dollar?

 

All letters matter.

[DrPJax]

36 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Who was the doctor?  Was it David “The San Diego Butcher” Chao?

Hey buddy , hope you’re good !  I saw the live video of the guy who calls himself the “ thigh doctor”.  Didn’t act or seem like a real doc to me. He was on with a Stethoscope listening to his thigh ( not exaggerating).  Was also dancing around in shorts that he hiked up trying to show off his thigh development.  Seemed more like a knowledgeable PT guy to me with rehab experience.  If he is a real MD , I am surprised and apologetic , as  some people just want to be influencers now as a career, and heck , it might pay more! 
 

Pretty laughable as I thought after 42 years in medicine, I had seen quite a bit!   😀😎🍸I just turned 65 on 7/30 and am finally retiring because of failed neck surgery , but keeping all my credentials active my friend.  It’s hard to give that up after a lifetime wanting to get there !  Just saw a poll on Fox News that only 30% of the public trust Drs now , ( not hard to figure out why, guys like Pierre Cory MD who saved thousands of pts and is extensively published , is having his boards threatened by the ABIM for his work on a certain Nobel prize winning medicine etc while mandates of things keep happening , eroding trust in science ,  so maybe not a bad time to get out ). Then I saw a certain attractive female chiro with several thousand followers on YouTube treating a twitch E girl ( who posted her income as over 1.5 mil$ per month just from her only fans site alone !) , for “ sinusitis and allergies “ by “ manipulating “ her maxillary and frontal sinuses, and that’s allowed to still be posted and monetized !😊I did hundreds of flexible nasolaryngoscopies  in the office and I never could figure out how to physically move/ manipulate a sinus non surgically.!   🤣😉. YouTube must be paying well ,  better than insurance companies !  So we get football players prognosis by YouTube and allergies treated by “ manipulation “ !  No wonder the public doesn’t know who to trust ! 
 

But yeah , the guy seemed entertaining and like a good Bills fan , but didn’t have the typical , serious and professional demeanor I think most might expect from an ortho. Just wanted to say hello and Hope your career is going good ; cherish it as from my experience , time goes too fast! 😊.  I really wish you enjoyment and continued success in your career as a colleague and fellow Bills fan. Hope to chat more about the Bills as the season rolls along! 

Will enjoy watching all the games Saturday , Bills have a tough opening reg season schedule and the o line , new OC, ? About our cb’s and maybe Poyer early are some red flags for me especially after that opening Pittsburgh game last year. Indy will be tough even in the preseason, but not sure how much either team will show things Saturday given we play again in the regular season I believe.   Nfl network said last year we had the easiest schedule in the NFL ( based on ending wL records) and we still ended up 11-6 ( their words not mine ! )  Does make me take those rose colored glasses off till we actually see real action; the afc is going to be really tough and McDermott needs to finally prove he can avoid stretches of lulls this year and step up his performance come playoff time as it’s not exactly been stellar other than the New England game! It really does showcase why Marv is a hof coach despite the SB losses as it’s just so hard to even get there.  ( this post was solely replying to my friend mr weo and not intended as any medical opinion, just answering his question about the “ thigh doctor’s “  video analysis concerning Tre white after he watched him work out on video and he did make some interesting observations about mobility and whites ability to jump and land on the affected leg )  Stay safe and healthy! 👍

[Mr. WEO]

32 minutes ago, DrPJax said:

Hey buddy , hope you’re good !  I saw the live video of the guy who calls himself the “ thigh doctor”.  Didn’t act or seem like a real doc to me. He was on with a Stethoscope listening to his thigh ( not exaggerating).  Was also dancing around in shorts that he hiked up trying to show off his thigh development.  Seemed more like a knowledgeable PT guy to me with rehab experience.  If he is a real MD , I am surprised and apologetic , as  some people just want to be influencers now as a career, and heck , it might pay more! 
 

Pretty laughable as I thought after 42 years in medicine, I had seen quite a bit!   😀😎🍸I just turned 65 on 7/30 and am finally retiring because of failed neck surgery , but keeping all my credentials active my friend.  It’s hard to give that up after a lifetime wanting to get there !  Just saw a poll on Fox News that only 30% of the public trust Drs now , ( not hard to figure out why, guys like Pierre Cory MD who saved thousands of pts and is extensively published , is having his boards threatened by the ABIM for his work on a certain Nobel prize winning medicine etc while mandates of things keep happening , eroding trust in science ,  so maybe not a bad time to get out ). Then I saw a certain attractive female chiro with several thousand followers on YouTube treating a twitch E girl ( who posted her income as over 1.5 mil$ per month just from her only fans site alone !) , for “ sinusitis and allergies “ by “ manipulating “ her maxillary and frontal sinuses, and that’s allowed to still be posted and monetized !😊I did hundreds of flexible nasolaryngoscopies  in the office and I never could figure out how to physically move/ manipulate a sinus non surgically.!   🤣😉. YouTube must be paying well ,  better than insurance companies !  So we get football players prognosis by YouTube and allergies treated by “ manipulation “ !  No wonder the public doesn’t know who to trust ! 
 

But yeah , the guy seemed entertaining and like a good Bills fan , but didn’t have the typical , serious and professional demeanor I think most might expect from an ortho. Just wanted to say hello and Hope your career is going good ; cherish it as from my experience , time goes too fast! 😊.  I really wish you enjoyment and continued success in your career as a colleague and fellow Bills fan. Hope to chat more about the Bills as the season rolls along! 

Will enjoy watching all the games Saturday , Bills have a tough opening reg season schedule and the o line , new OC, ? About our cb’s and maybe Poyer early are some red flags for me especially after that opening Pittsburgh game last year. Indy will be tough even in the preseason, but not sure how much either team will show things Saturday given we play again in the regular season I believe.   Nfl network said last year we had the easiest schedule in the NFL ( based on ending wL records) and we still ended up 11-6 ( their words not mine ! )  Does make me take those rose colored glasses off till we actually see real action; the afc is going to be really tough and McDermott needs to finally prove he can avoid stretches of lulls this year and step up his performance come playoff time as it’s not exactly been stellar other than the New England game! It really does showcase why Marv is a hof coach despite the SB losses as it’s just so hard to even get there.  ( this post was solely replying to my friend mr weo and not intended as any medical opinion, just answering his question about the “ thigh doctor’s “  video analysis concerning Tre white after he watched him work out on video and he did make some interesting observations about mobility and whites ability to jump and land on the affected leg )  Stay safe and healthy! 👍

Hey brother!  Thanks for the kind words.  Happy to hear you are leaving this rat race.  At 59 I have another 10+ years to go I think.   Even then I might get the itch and do some travel locum if places are desperate for an old coot who can still cut!  Also, yes it’s crazy these quacks can monetize their goofy practices without liability—-different world.

 

I echo your thoughts re Bills:  gotta get to SB—-would be great if the win, but getting there is a must this season.  McD should feel that heat with this stacked team.  Another playoff bungling/exit  and it’s time to re-evaluate the HC position.

 

Enjoy this next phase of your life and I hope not everything is as much of a pain in the neck!

Edited August 11, 2022 by Mr. WEO

[Punching Bag]

18 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

After the bye week has always felt like the most realistic timeline…

 

That would make a perfect opprotunity for Poyer's agent to tell Poyer to sit out without a new contract.

[BigDingus]

Don't apologize for the post...

 

Sure, the doctor doesn't have intimate knowledge of everything going on, but it's still interesting to hear other opinions (even if it's not what we want to hear).

 

I suspect that's the problem most people have... he said something they didn't want to hear. Doesn't bother me though, it's not like his opinion has any bearing at all on when Tre returns or how his recovery is coming along. So what if he's dead wrong? 

 

Just saying, don't worry about it OP. Thanks for posting anyway 🙂

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

It’s most likely not 100% healed. An ACL graft can take up to two years to fully heal and fixate…. But the research has shown that most athletes respond positively to waiting at least 9 months….. reinjury is reduced by more than 50% for those who wait to return to sport until least those 9 months post surgery for various reasons(ROM, 90-95%  strength of opposite limb, ability to withstand the change of direction/curing/accelerating.)

What this doctor was stating was waiting 11 months.  He’s 9 months now.  
 

The doctor and/or surgeon will determine how strong the knee is after the examination.  
 

 It can also take up to one year for a disk to heal after surgery and mine healed in 4 months….it all depends on the person.

[Royale with Cheese]

44 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The trainers will determine that… the doctor stating that has no clue… again, I think he’ll be back at the nine month mark, which is mid September…. My guess is he comes back either week 3, 4, or 5. 

The doctor will most certainly determine that.  When they say “medically cleared to play”, its not coming from the trainer.

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

The doctor will most certainly determine that.  When they say “medically cleared to play”, its not coming from the trainer.

 

Hope it's not the same crew that (twice) cleared "Lights Out" Merriman to play.....

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Hope it's not the same crew that (twice) cleared "Lights Out" Merriman to play.....

Why?

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

Why?

 

He was immediately injured after both clearances

[T master]

The Bills have good depth at the CB position so let him sit & come back 100% mind body & soul in time to shut down the other offenses just prior to the play off run to give him time to get back into game shape to take the Bills to the big game .

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

He was immediately injured after both clearances

Okay?  Some players get injured a lot.

Does Julio Jones also have bad doctors because he hasn’t been able to stay healthy since 2018?

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

It’s a team decision between the surgeon/trainers/physical therapist…. The trainers and therapists are with him day in and day out so obviously they’ll have a better idea of the progress than will the surgeon. 

Its not a team decision if someone is medically cleared to play.  Medically cleared to play comes from a medical doctor.  The trainers, front office and physical therapists aren’t doctors.  
 

Physical therapists and trainers work with the athlete and the doctor will determine if he’s ready or not after.  The doctor will perform medical tests and make a determination.  

I just went through this Scott.   I’ve know probably 20 athletes that went through this.  You’re arguing something you don’t know.

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Okay?  Some players get injured a lot.

Does Julio Jones also have bad doctors because he hasn’t been able to stay healthy since 2018?

 

The point was...he wasn't ready to return.  In one instance,  he immediately re-injured his Achilles simply by running backwards in a camp drill.  They never asked the achilles injury guy to run backpedal (a "medical test") before clearing him.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Mr. WEO

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The point was...he wasn't ready to return.  In one instance,  he immediately re-injured his Achilles simply by running backwards in a camp drill.  They never asked the achilles injury guy to run backpedal (a "medical test") before clearing him.

Yeah and that happens sometimes.

You know who Dr. James Andrew’s is?  World famous surgeon.

 

He medically cleared our catcher to resume throwing and the very next practice….re-injured.  Fraud?

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Yeah and that happens sometimes.

You know who Dr. James Andrew’s is?  World famous surgeon.

 

He medically cleared our catcher to resume throwing and the very next practice….re-injured.  Fraud?

 

Did he do it twice without having him throw?

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

You think the trainers and physical therapists don’t do medical and functional tests?…. How do you think they determine if he’s ready to play or not?….They are as much involved in that decision as the surgeon. 
 

They are as much a part of the process to get the athlete ready to come back but the decision if he’s medically cleared or not is based on the medical doctor.  
 

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Did he do it twice without having him throw?

He didn’t throw a baseball at all until Dr. Andrew’s told he could resume throwing.  He never threw a ball in his office.  

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

They are as much a part of the process to get the athlete ready to come back but the decision if he’s medically cleared or not is based on the medical doctor.  
 

He didn’t throw a baseball at all until Dr. Andrew’s told he could resume throwing.  He never threw a ball in his office.  

 

No one throws baseballs in my office either.  I would take that somewhere else.  

[Royale with Cheese]

10 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I work in the field….there are series of tests provided and examined by the trainers/therapists specifically to help determine if the athlete is ready to come back…. It may be the surgeons final say, but those functional tests are crucial to help determine if the athlete is ready to return assuming all imaging looks good. 
 

Barring a setback.(or if he’s already had one)… I expect Tre to be back as early as Week 3. 

 

 

Which is what I said.  I like how you carefully worded it "it may be"....no it is.

 

Medically cleared means by a medical doctor.  Reword things however you want but a 4 year graduate from college with a Physical Therapy degree doesn't have the same input as a medical doctor.

[Big Turk]

18 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I work in the field….there are series of tests provided and examined by the trainers/therapists specifically to help determine if the athlete is ready to come back…. It may be the surgeons final say, but those functional tests are crucial to help determine if the athlete is ready to return assuming all imaging looks good. 
 

Barring a setback.(or if he’s already had one)… I expect Tre to be back as early as Week 3. 

 

 

Is there a danger in rushing him back even if all those tests look good? Like something that you wouldn't know about until he has repeated movements on it during a game?

[StHustle]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:26 PM, CorkScrewHill said:

I removed the link as many pointed out reasonably that a random doctor watching some video is not a great means for judging Tre’s recovery. Sorry for the waste of time post.

why not just delete the thread all together?

[Einstein]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:26 PM, CorkScrewHill said:

I removed the link as many pointed out reasonably that a random doctor watching some video is not a great means for judging Tre’s recovery. Sorry for the waste of time post.

 

Oh come on, stick by your convictions a little. A tad bit of opposing opinions is all it takes for you to flop sides and remove a link?

[FilthyBeast]

There's a reason why McD has been evasive on this topic when asked about it during various interviews in camp so far.

 

And given the nature of his injury and how important he is to the team I get the sense the organization will be as cautious as possible with him. This is why I think even midseason is wishful thinking and he probably won't be nearly as effective as he was pre-injury until 2023 anyway.

 

This also raises the question as to why this team did not adequately address DB in the offseason in terms of a viable veteran signing. I guess there is still time to do this via FA/Trade/roster cuts, etc but it's playing with fire IMO given the upcoming schedule and how bad this defense was without him against real competition (i.e. Bucs game/KC playoff debacle).

[CorkScrewHill]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Oh come on, stick by your convictions a little. A tad bit of opposing opinions is all it takes for you to flop sides and remove a link?

In hindsight I agreed with those who argued that it was not very meaningful to have a doctor watch a few clips and make a diagnosis. I would have preferred to delete the thread overall but there was some discussions people were having and I didn’t want to impact that. I like to think I can listen to reasoned points and change my mind. It was hardly a conviction.