PFT - Leslie Frazier: It’s discouraging I haven’t had another chance to be a head coach

[klos63]

On 7/13/2022 at 4:28 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

In what way is it insulting?

Because retread has a connotation of a reworking in an unimaginative, uninspiring way.  It's by no means a compliment.

 

From the Cambridge dictionary : to do something that has been done before, without adding any new ideas: Clearly they have run out of ideas and are retreading old ground.

Edited July 16, 2022 by klos63

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, klos63 said:

Because retread has a connotation of a reworking in an unimaginative, uninspiring way.  It's by no means a compliment.

 

From the Cambridge dictionary : to do something that has been done before, without adding any new ideas: Clearly they have run out of ideas and are retreading old ground.

 

To do something that has been done before..... that is exactly what it is. 

 

There is nothing offensive about the word. It is just an adjective to describe something. 

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To do something that has been done before..... that is exactly what it is. 

 

There is nothing offensive about the word. It is just an adjective to describe something. 

"retread" in regard to football coaches is definitely negative, 100%

[LeGOATski]

8 hours ago, stuvian said:

Why does he think he's earned another shot at HC? He had one shot more than most and did a middling job with it. 

I feel like this question has been beat to death in this thread, but so many average to below-average coaches have gotten 2nd or 3rd chances in the NFL. 

 

And in regards to the "retread" label, applying it to a 2nd time HC kinda sucks because after his first go-around the candidate probably DOES have new ideas and has matured a bit in his profession.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

"retread" in regard to football coaches is definitely negative, 100%

 

It has a negative perception, sure. It is not offensive.

 

I have no beef with retreads. They are no more or less likely to succeed than first timers - Reid, Carroll and of course Belichick all won Superbowls with their 2nd (or in one case 3rd) team. But they are retreads. That is simply the correct adjective to describe them. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by GunnerBill

[pigpen65]

If the Bills close out those last 13 seconds he probably would be a HC right now 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It has a negative perception, sure. It is not offensive.

 

I have no beef with retreads. They are no more or less likely to succeed than first timers - Reid, Carroll and of course Belichick all won Superbowls with their 2nd (or in one case 3rd) team. But they are retreads. That is simply the correct adjective to describe them. 

 

 

A retread is a tire that's tread has worn out but is then re-capped with a new tread,  almost always to serve the purpose of being a non-steer tire because re-treads are structurally compromised.

 

Leslie Frazier is a re-tread right now....in his role as a DC.

 

He once was a steer tire........now he's on the trailer with a bunch of other assistant tires so the vehicle doesn't wreck if one of them fails.

 

That would be the correct use of the analogy.

 

I don't think it's really accurate to call Reid, Carroll and Belichick re-treads..........when they were fired it was still obvious that they had a lot of tread left and would be guiding a team again.

 

So "retread" is accepted but not the correct adjective, IMO.   Lumps in people in one group who clearly belong in different groups, IMO.  

 

When Leslie got fired in Minnesota he appeared to be a dud and he certainly didn't have the past track record as a SB winning genius DC to get him a second chance like Belichick had.  

 

 And it is insulting, to an extent because retreads are considered clearly inferior to the original. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by BADOLBILZ
terminology correction

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

There was a 'Nail' in that Tire, in the final 13 seconds in regulation, of the Chiefs game.

 

It's funny that this retread analogy has become so hard and fast...........the highways in summer are strewn with blown re-caps from tractor trailers.   You can't have those things on the front of your expensive equipment if you have any concern about keeping it between the lines.   It's most definitely an insult to call a national championship winner who jumps back to the NFL a year or two later a retread.   

 

[Since1981]

It will be hard for him to be in an interview (Chiefs game?). Doesn’t matter details. He will have to do something defensively in his next playoff that overshadows his last game. LF is totally frozen out until then. (P.S. What HC GM would take that heat?)

Edited July 16, 2022 by Since1981

[BuffBillsForLife]

13 seconds doomed Frazier's hopes of ever getting another HC job unless the Bills win the SB with him as DC.

[klos63]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To do something that has been done before..... that is exactly what it is. 

 

There is nothing offensive about the word. It is just an adjective to describe something. 

you're leaving out part of the definition that says 'unimaginative and uninspiring'.  ' Lack of new ideas'.  I don't think giving a 2nd opportunity is necessarily 'unimaginative'.... , so in saying that to someone, I would say it's offensive.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, klos63 said:

you're leaving out part of the definition that says 'unimaginative and uninspiring'.  ' Lack of new ideas'.  I don't think giving a 2nd opportunity is necessarily 'unimaginative'.... , so in saying that to someone, I would say it's offensive.

 

So I reject that part of the definiton. The Oxford English dictionary gives two definitions:

 

verb

/riːˈtrɛd/

1.

go back over (a path or one's steps).

"they never retread the same ground"

2.

put a new tread on (a worn tyre).

"1.3 million tyres were retreaded"

 

It fits firmly into #1. It is the right adjective and nothing about it is offensive. 

[BADOLBILZ]

49 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So I reject that part of the definiton. The Oxford English dictionary gives two definitions:

 

verb

/riːˈtrɛd/

1.

go back over (a path or one's steps).

"they never retread the same ground"

2.

put a new tread on (a worn tyre).

"1.3 million tyres were retreaded"

 

It fits firmly into #1. It is the right adjective and nothing about it is offensive. 

 

 

"He's a retread."

 

"They hired a retread."

 

In which of those sentences about an NFL coach is retread a verb? 

 

Here is the last part of the definition that you omitted:

 

noun

/ˈrēˌtred/

a tire that has been given a new tread.

 

 

 

[Beerball]

15 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To do something that has been done before..... that is exactly what it is. 

 

There is nothing offensive about the word. It is just an adjective to describe something. 

Apparently there's a language barrier here. Calling someone a retread is not a compliment, it is an insult.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Beerball said:

Apparently there's a language barrier here. Calling someone a retread is not a compliment, it is an insult.

 

I don't think it is a compliment or an insult. It is just a description. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by GunnerBill

[RyanC883]

this is a total lack of self-awareness and really concerns me.  How on earth does prevent-D Frazier think he is going to get a HC job.  He plays a vanilla brand of D, his D ranking was overinflated by playing weak QBs, and he blew it TWICE in the biggest game of the year.  Yeah, FOs will be clamoring for you.  

[chongli]

Wow...almost two pages of arguing about the definition of "retread". The season can't begin soon enough! I'd rather argue about Edmunds, lol. I'm psyched.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think it is a compliment or an insult. It is just a description. 

 

 

Not in this country.

 

Our version of the language is a little newer and influenced differently due to our diversity..........so perhaps we haven't reached the point where we don't use nouns to describe people, places or things anymore.

 

It's American Football.   It's a country about 3,000 miles wide.   We burn a lot of rubber over here.   80+ mile round trip car commutes to work every day aren't at all uncommon.  Trust me,  it's a tire reference. 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Beerball said:

Apparently there's a language barrier here. Calling someone a retread is not a compliment, it is an insult.

 

 

@GunnerBill generally does such a good job of assimilating to some very American discussions that you take for granted that there isn't a barrier.............but that is most certainly the case here.      Calling someone a retread is an insult.    Por ejemplo.......when you quit being a mod and stormed off for a while.........nobody that I am aware of called you a retread board member when you returned because that would have been a low blow.   I generally refer to overseers who end up in Gen Pop again as "comeback" or "breakout" posters.   

[GunnerBill]

I still don't think it is in any way insulting and I am going to keep using it. So I guess people will just have to get used to that.

[LeGOATski]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I still don't think it is in any way insulting and I am going to keep using it. So I guess people will just have to get used to that.

Listen, bub. You can't tell us what to do anymore. That ended 246 years ago!

[Beerball]

52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

So I guess people will just have to get used to that.

Perhaps we already are.

[T master]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:13 PM, LeGOATski said:

God doesn't give a ***** about Super Bowls, man

 

Apparently in your eyes but i feel he has a plan for each of us & most of our coaches are god fearing men so i would think Frazier would believe as i do that he has a plan in place for him & will follow it until he gets or makes others understand what he deserves by what he's accomplished .

 

But you can feel how ever you want that's fine ...

[Solomon Grundy]

I understand that there are very rare opportunities to become a NFL HC, but do you really want that opportunity with an organization that’s poorly run from an owner’s/mgmt aspect? Would Frazier really want the Texans job? 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Listen, bub. You can't tell us what to do anymore. That ended 246 years ago!

 

Piffle.

[Mr. WEO]

22 hours ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

13 seconds doomed Frazier's hopes of ever getting another HC job unless the Bills win the SB with him as DC.

 

12 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

this is a total lack of self-awareness and really concerns me.  How on earth does prevent-D Frazier think he is going to get a HC job.  He plays a vanilla brand of D, his D ranking was overinflated by playing weak QBs, and he blew it TWICE in the biggest game of the year.  Yeah, FOs will be clamoring for you.  

 

Frazier wasn't the only Defensive Coordinator on the Bills sidelines making those decisions at the end of the game..........

[WhoTom]

I think describing a coach as a "retread" is old, unimaginative, and uninspiring. The term has too much mileage on it; I wouldn't use it to steer a discussion.

 

 

[LeGOATski]

3 hours ago, T master said:

 

Apparently in your eyes but i feel he has a plan for each of us & most of our coaches are god fearing men so i would think Frazier would believe as i do that he has a plan in place for him & will follow it until he gets or makes others understand what he deserves by what he's accomplished .

 

But you can feel how ever you want that's fine ...

Respectfully, it's not a feeling. God gave us free will. That's in the Bible. It's not about feelings. "The plan" you talk about leads to eternal salvation, not Earthly accomplishments and human riches.

[LeGOATski]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Piffle.

[Dr.Sack]

If the overall benchmark to qualify as a great coach is “did they win a Super Bowl?”, then there are many great coaches off this list. Including: Levy, Schottenheimer, Knox, Gilman, Grant, Wyche, and Reeves. Some coaches are lucky enough to get a second shot, and very few are likely to get a third. One coach lucky enough to get 3 cracks is Pete Carroll. Carroll was one year and done as Jets HC, then became coach of the late 90s Patriots whose record declined every year he remained HC. Carroll’s lack of success brought us 20 years of misery at the hands of Darth Hoodie. 

 

Specifically on Frazier, this is a coach who got to the playoffs in year 3 in Minnesota with Christian Ponder going 10-6. The following season Ponder returned from orbit and Frazier was out the door.
 

So much of a coaches success rests on the entire quality of the organization; ownership, GM, QB, OC & a bit of luck. Frazier has obviously learned from his time in Buffalo & the league. Why decline to interview with Houston? Probably he identified the organization as not an ideal environment, QB on way out, questionable ownership, rebuilding, etc. Frazier isn’t dumb, he wants to put it out there that he is still interested, and is biding his time for the best opportunity. 

 

Ironically the city and team I could see him gravitating to is Seattle assuming Pete Carroll bottoms out in 2022 and exits. Seattle is also rumored to be in the market for new ownership as Paul Allen’s estate looks to sell the Seahawks & Portland Trailblazers. In replacing the once bumbling Pete Carroll, Frazier would have new ownership and an opportunity to do a rebuild with high draft picks to find a QB. Replacing an older defensive minded coach with another older but younger than former defensive minded coach would be a seemingly proper ideological fit. Frazier’s cool demeanor and thoughtful responses would play nice in the Pacific Northwest. 

[Rico]

3 hours ago, WhoTom said:

I think describing a coach as a "retread" is old, unimaginative, and uninspiring. The term has too much mileage on it; I wouldn't use it to steer a discussion.

 

 

Agreed, better to just say he was a failure.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I still don't think it is in any way insulting and I am going to keep using it. So I guess people will just have to get used to that.

 

 

[Victory Formation]

Leslie is a good coach, not a great one.

[JaCrispy]

I’m just pissed that we will likely never get two 3rd round picks for Frazier because of  “13 seconds”…

[klos63]

20 hours ago, chongli said:

Wow...almost two pages of arguing about the definition of "retread". The season can't begin soon enough! I'd rather argue about Edmunds, lol. I'm psyched.

My fault, I thought listing the definition of retread would end it, but if some people refuse to accept the definition, therein comes the lengthy discussion. Alternative facts first, now alternative definitions.

[njbuff]

Hey Leslie, what’s more discouraging is the way you melted down at the end of the last game and that’s why you aren’t a HC or will never be again if the Bills don’t win the SB.

[GunnerBill]

13 hours ago, klos63 said:

My fault, I thought listing the definition of retread would end it, but if some people refuse to accept the definition, therein comes the lengthy discussion. Alternative facts first, now alternative definitions.

 

You listed A definition. 

[LeGOATski]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You listed A definition. 

Do you think context matters? It's THE definition here and in this situation.

[GunnerBill]

29 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Do you think context matters? It's THE definition here and in this situation.

 

I disagree. 

[klos63]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You listed A definition. 

Which you decided to ignore to help make your point. It's not how things work.