Bills OTAs

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Magox said:

Seems as if there seems to be some amnesia as to why the Bills didn't advance into the AFC Championship game.

 

Aside from the coaching gaffe

 

- The Bills couldn't get after the QB

- The Bills couldn't cover their receivers

 

That was addressed this offseason in a major way.

 

With that said, the offensive line on paper is slightly better and so is the backfield, tight ends with the WR's essentially being a push.

 

Get one more veteran depth CB and boundary WR and the team is set.

 

I don't want to really revisit the KC loss but I guess I will respond. I don't think any of us have amnesia. I'd argue many have PTSD. Perhaps it's just sarcasm. The Bills lost the game for many reasons besides the 2 you mentioned. Obviously, the loss of Tre was significant. The pass rush wasn't bad. In fact, they relentlessly pressured Mahomes. It was more of a great QB making unbelievable plays. His legs hurt the Bills as well with timely scrambles, runs, and extending plays. 

 

Fast forward to the upcoming season and the Bills roster. I think on paper the Bills remain very strong especially with a healthy upright Allen. I'd argue the WR core seems slightly weaker. Questions still remain on the offensive line. Special teams is a concern at punter and returner positions. How will Tre play? Lastly, and unpopular is the coaching staff. How will OC Dorsey's play calling impact the offense? Can coach McDermott learn from his horrific 13 second disaster? 

 

I expect a better and more consistent pass rush and a more formidable rush defense. Not a huge fan of Edmunds but I don't want to go there. Milano didn't seem to have the same kind of big play impact as previous years. I think the lb core is adequate and perhaps the weakest link of the Bills D. Seems like many overlook this. Maybe I'm wrong here? 

 

Lastly, the Bills schedule is much more difficult than previous years. Several teams have significantly improved their teams. Raiders, Denver, Chargers, Cinci, Indy, and Miami. I think the Bills are the best team in the AFC.  The Bills have huge targets on their backs as one of the favorites in the AFC. I suspect the Bills will get the best efforts of opposing teams. I can't wait for the season to start. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by newcam2012

[gobills404]

1 hour ago, Magox said:

Seems as if there seems to be some amnesia as to why the Bills didn't advance into the AFC Championship game.

 

Aside from the coaching gaffe

 

- The Bills couldn't get after the QB

- The Bills couldn't cover their receivers

 

That was addressed this offseason in a major way.

 

With that said, the offensive line on paper is slightly better and so is the backfield, tight ends with the WR's essentially being a push.

 

Get one more veteran depth CB and boundary WR and the team is set.

 

The Bills had Mahomes running for his life all game. He just kept making crazy plays and/or dumping it off and watching Hill and McKinnon and Hardman get a ton of YAC.

[Magox]

4 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

The Bills had Mahomes running for his life all game. He just kept making crazy plays and/or dumping it off and watching Hill and McKinnon and Hardman get a ton of YAC.

 

You guys are mistaking that for good pressure.  Mahomes had plenty of time to throw, obviously after 3-4 seconds then the pressure was coming in.

 

It wasn't as if the Bills were getting immediate pressure, the reason why he was "running for his life" was because of the time he was afforded and he just stood back there looking for options and eventually the pressure was coming in.

[Cash]

On 6/18/2022 at 9:52 AM, gobills404 said:

The Bills had Mahomes running for his life all game. He just kept making crazy plays and/or dumping it off and watching Hill and McKinnon and Hardman get a ton of YAC.

Those were mostly routine plays for Mahomes and pretty sustainable IMO. One guy flushing Mahomes out of the pocket doesn’t do much if Mahomes has room to run. He’ll either turn the corner, pick up an easy first, and go OB without taking a hit; or he’ll reset and hit the open man in the scrabble [EDIT:scramble] drill. He can do both of those all day.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Cash

[gobills404]

2 hours ago, Magox said:

 

You guys are mistaking that for good pressure.  Mahomes had plenty of time to throw, obviously after 3-4 seconds then the pressure was coming in.

 

It wasn't as if the Bills were getting immediate pressure, the reason why he was "running for his life" was because of the time he was afforded and he just stood back there looking for options and eventually the pressure was coming in.

 

A pressure is defined as getting 1.5 yards of the QB within 2.5 seconds of the snap. Nice try tho.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

12 hours ago, Logic said:

Yawn.

 

You claimed that I said that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. I didn’t. 
 

My disagreeing with the notion that they didn’t invest in the offense is not the same as my saying that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. 

But sure, go ahead and change the phrasing of what you’re accusing me of having said so that you can keep your “never been wrong even once” streak going. Par for the course.
 

Your constant personal attacks against my character — not my posts, mind you, but me as a person — your constant tagging me in posts, and your generally dismissive, arrogant, know-it-all demeanor are so tiresome. If you want to talk like an adult about football, great. Otherwise, please kindly keep my name out of your mouth.

He always gets his panties in a wad.

 

He tag me in posts even though I don’t respond to him ever.  He does the same thing to Yolo.  He’s a child. 

[Beerball]

On 6/13/2022 at 6:12 PM, eball said:

Maybe so, but only in the moment the pick occurs. Even a year later nobody is saying “bottom half of the first round pick Tre White.” He’s a first rounder.

 

Edmunds is basically a rookie.

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, gobills404 said:

The Bills had Mahomes running for his life all game. He just kept making crazy plays and/or dumping it off and watching Hill and McKinnon and Hardman get a ton of YAC.

Agree. They just couldn't get to him. It was frustrating. Perhaps, someone can shed some light on the Cinci game. The first half Mahomes had his way. However, in the 2nd half that Cinci D dominated the Chiefs offense. I remember them getting to Mahomes and rattling him too. Something tge Bills couldn't do. What did they do to dominate Mahomes? Surely, Mahomes played poorly too. 

[MasterStrategist]

48 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

 

A pressure is defined as getting 1.5 yards of the QB within 2.5 seconds of the snap. Nice try tho.

 

Good try yourself.  Lets state the facts:

 

1. Against KC in playoffs

   a. Cincy generated 4 sacks, while rushing just 3 guys (with a spy) on quite a few occasions.  Mahomes ran 3x for 19 yards. KC had 375 total yards, 29 min TOP

   b. Buffalo generated 2 sacks.  Mahomes escaped 7x for 69 yards.  KC had 552 total yards and 36 min TOP

 

Single game, yes.  But like Magox said, it was obvious during the KC game and many times throughout the season, against above average offensez, what our 3 main problems were:

1. Lack of physicality up front/continued struggles in the run game

2. Lack of consistent pass rush, especially with our DEs.

3. Struggles at CB, emphasized once Tre went down.  We needed a CB who could matchup with speed and length..enter Elam.

  a. Levi struggled against big bodied and/or speed WRs.

  b. Dane is better against big bodied WRs than Levi, but also has issues with over the top speed

 

Pretty wasy to connect the dots and see what the front office/coaches thought were issues, based on the FA and draft priorities.  We invested big money on #2, our 1st round pick on #3, and a manageable amount of $$ to address #1.

 

You don't give up 550+ yards in the playoffs and think our pressure rate was good enough OR equivalent to what Cincy was able to adjust with.  Hubbard and Hendrickson, were leaps and bounds above Hughes and Mario.  No surprise we basically left 4 of our 10 key rotating DL walk in Fa or cut.

[BADOLBILZ]

13 hours ago, Logic said:

Yawn.

 

You claimed that I said that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. I didn’t. 
 

My disagreeing with the notion that they didn’t invest in the offense is not the same as my saying that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. 

But sure, go ahead and change the phrasing of what you’re accusing me of having said so that you can keep your “never been wrong even once” streak going. Par for the course.
 

Your constant personal attacks against my character — not my posts, mind you, but me as a person — your constant tagging me in posts, and your generally dismissive, arrogant, know-it-all demeanor are so tiresome. If you want to talk like an adult about football, great. Otherwise, please kindly keep my name out of your mouth.

 

 

Scott simply said they sacrificed investment on the offensive side of the ball in favor of defense.

 

Your response was to straw man Scott by saying they invested in ALL OF THESE offensive players...........when he had never said they didn't sign anyone on offense.

 

$90M investment in just 5 defensive players >>>> $25M (spread out over 14 offensive players)

 

So either you were being willfully ignorant or just being a jag off for the sake of it.   Don't pretend to be an injured party,  that's just weak.  

 

You aren't ever going to have an "adult football conversation" when you are using that straw man technique.

 

You want more respect.........play better.  

[3rdand12]

On 6/17/2022 at 1:15 PM, Royale with Cheese said:

I meant to say Fahrenheit. 

ge·sund·heit

/ɡəˈzo͝on(t)īt/

Learn to pronounce

exclamation

used to wish good health to a person who has just sneezed.

[gobills404]

18 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Good try yourself.  Lets state the facts:

 

1. Against KC in playoffs

   a. Cincy generated 4 sacks, while rushing just 3 guys (with a spy) on quite a few occasions.  Mahomes ran 3x for 19 yards. KC had 375 total yards, 29 min TOP

   b. Buffalo generated 2 sacks.  Mahomes escaped 7x for 69 yards.  KC had 552 total yards and 36 min TOP

 

Single game, yes.  But like Magox said, it was obvious during the KC game and many times throughout the season, against above average offensez, what our 3 main problems were:

1. Lack of physicality up front/continued struggles in the run game

2. Lack of consistent pass rush, especially with our DEs.

3. Struggles at CB, emphasized once Tre went down.  We needed a CB who could matchup with speed and length..enter Elam.

  a. Levi struggled against big bodied and/or speed WRs.

  b. Dane is better against big bodied WRs than Levi, but also has issues with over the top speed

 

Pretty wasy to connect the dots and see what the front office/coaches thought were issues, based on the FA and draft priorities.  We invested big money on #2, our 1st round pick on #3, and a manageable amount of $$ to address #1.

 

You don't give up 550+ yards in the playoffs and think our pressure rate was good enough OR equivalent to what Cincy was able to adjust with.  Hubbard and Hendrickson, were leaps and bounds above Hughes and Mario.  No surprise we basically left 4 of our 10 key rotating DL walk in Fa or cut.

You said the Bills didn’t get immediate pressure and they did. Then you just wasted all that time moving the goal posts lol. Take care.

[3rdand12]

21 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Saffold has sucked at pass protection and has shoulder problems. 
 

You said “much better” offensive line. They have basically replaced one starter with a guy who’s struggled in protecting the QB for an offense that predominantly passes the ball. 
 

Everything being equal, based on last years performance you can’t possibly convince me the offensive line is “much better” on paper. So we can agree to disagree buddy.👍🏻

Perhaps Bills want to run the ball more this year or get quick release/hot read plays going with Cook now in the backfield, or wherever they line him up.
 Josh just needs to be more patient and play the long game and enjoy chunk plays etc  lol

[Magox]

3 hours ago, gobills404 said:

 

A pressure is defined as getting 1.5 yards of the QB within 2.5 seconds of the snap. Nice try tho.

 

 

What sort of stats are these?  

 

And Cincinnati was rushing with 3 much of the second half and dropping back an additional defender.   

Quote

 

The Bengals used a three-man rush to somehow flummox Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs.

The Bengals rushed three down linemen on 12 passing plays in the second half and overtime. Four of those plays resulted in sacks (all four in the 4th quarter), and another resulted in the overtime interception.

 

 

 

Bills pass rush was not championship caliber

Quote

 

Yet the Bills didn’t move him off his spot in the pocket enough and didn’t finish good rushes the few times they had him in their sights.

Mahomes was sacked just once and hit just twice in the Chiefs’ 38-24 victory over the Bills.

 

 

 

You are asking everyone to not trust their lying eyes and go with some cherry picked stat.  Bottom line is that it was pretty much universally accepted that the pass rush was inadequate against Mahomes, he was sacked once and hit just twice.  He had tons of time against a 4 man pass rush and when there was a rusher it was easy for him to evade.

 

This is a weird hill for you or anyone to die on, pretty much everyone knows that the pass rush that day stunk.

 

The point is that the offense was miles ahead of the defense on that day and when the Bills lost last year, most of the time it was because the defense couldn't close out the game.

 

Selecting a 1st round DB and adding Von Miller addresses what were our biggest weaknesses that prevented us from getting to the SuperBowl.

 

[Logic]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Scott simply said they sacrificed investment on the offensive side of the ball in favor of defense.

 

Your response was to straw man Scott by saying they invested in ALL OF THESE offensive players...........when he had never said they didn't sign anyone on offense.

 

$90M investment in just 5 defensive players >>>> $25M (spread out over 14 offensive players)

 

So either you were being willfully ignorant or just being a jag off for the sake of it.   Don't pretend to be an injured party,  that's just weak.  

 

You aren't ever going to have an "adult football conversation" when you are using that straw man technique.

 

You want more respect.........play better.  

It’s quite humorous that you — with your techniques of outright dismissal, arrogance, know-it-all-ism, putting words in other people’s mouths, and frequent moving of the goal posts — would ever pretend to be the authority on adult conversation. 

With regard to earning respect on this board, I think my reputation points (especially relative to my overall post count) compared to yours — and in 15 or so less years of membership — speaks volumes. 

 

As for earning YOUR respect? Couldn’t care less. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you’ll always be rude and dismissive to me and attack me personally no matter what. 

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, Logic said:

It’s quite humorous that you — with your techniques of outright dismissal, arrogance, know-it-all-ism, putting words in other people’s mouths, and frequent moving of the goal posts — would ever pretend to be the authority on adult conversation. 

With regard to earning respect on this board, I think my reputation points (especially relative to my overall post count) compared to yours — and in 15 or so less years of membership — speaks volumes. 

 

As for earning YOUR respect? Couldn’t care less. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you’ll always be rude and dismissive to me and attack me personally no matter what. 

 

 

You are such an aggrieved party, scarecrow.

 

 

Is $90M a lot more of an investment than $25M or not?

 

You want to talk about football or would you rather keep crying?

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

44 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You are such an aggrieved party, scarecrow.

 

 

Is $90M a lot more of an investment than $25M or not?

 

You want to talk about football or would you rather keep crying?

Honestly I like you and logic post's. Not ruling out you're possibly thinking. I'm more in line with logic reasons. Ya badol have respect for you even tho disagree at times. Nothing wrong with different views. I'm super excited for this upcoming season. We all can do same. It's a different season until the results come in ( hoping win every darn game out there). 

[CaliBills]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

It’s quite humorous that you — with your techniques of outright dismissal, arrogance, know-it-all-ism, putting words in other people’s mouths, and frequent moving of the goal posts — would ever pretend to be the authority on adult conversation. 

With regard to earning respect on this board, I think my reputation points (especially relative to my overall post count) compared to yours — and in 15 or so less years of membership — speaks volumes. 

 

As for earning YOUR respect? Couldn’t care less. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you’ll always be rude and dismissive to me and attack me personally no matter what. 

 

Just put him on ignore as he obviously thinks he is the smartest person in the room but is far from it.  

[BADOLBILZ]

29 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

Honestly I like you and logic post's. Not ruling out you're possibly thinking. I'm more in line with logic reasons. Ya badol have respect for you even tho disagree at times. Nothing wrong with different views. I'm super excited for this upcoming season. We all can do same. It's a different season until the results come in ( hoping win every darn game out there). 

 

 

Logic doesn't have a reason.........he was just triggered by Scott's statement of fact about the level of investment in defense versus offense........so he straw-manned him with a response that didn't in any way refute what he was taking offense to.

 

$90M > $25M 

 

Fact.

 

None of this is a referendum on whether you or anyone else should be excited about the season.

 

I'd be excited about the season if they were the prohibitive SB favorite or the favorite to end up with the #1 pick in the draft.   

[MasterStrategist]

6 hours ago, gobills404 said:

You said the Bills didn’t get immediate pressure and they did. Then you just wasted all that time moving the goal posts lol. Take care.

I didn't say that, btw, lol.  But while you brought it up, what did this mysterious immediate pressure lead to? 500+ yards given up, and just 2 sacks? Oh yeah, great pressure by our front 4.

 

You clearly missed the point that I was supporting from the other poster.  Which was Cincys front 4 pressure and defense performed much much better than what we did.  Our defense lacked a top edge rusher all season, for the past few years.  Difficult to be a super bowl team, without one.

 

But continue to find useless "immediate pressure" stats, that Jerry Hughes seems to always be great at, but not actually getting the sack.  I think the front office agrees.  Take care as well

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Logic doesn't have a reason.........he was just triggered by Scott's statement of fact about the level of investment in defense versus offense........so he straw-manned him with a response that didn't in any way refute what he was taking offense to.

 

$90M > $25M 

 

Fact.

 

None of this is a referendum on whether you or anyone else should be excited about the season.

 

I'd be excited about the season if they were the prohibitive SB favorite or the favorite to end up with the #1 pick in the draft.   

Where is the $90m coming from?  By my math, it's $72m...of which Von is $51m.  So....why are we throwing around this figure, when Vons contract heavily skews the discussion?

 

Point being, the front office saw a glaring need to find a true difference maker to rush the passer.  Outside of that 1 contract, we invested similar on both sides of the ball...albeit a bit more on defense, when considering our draft class.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

40 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

I didn't say that, btw, lol.  But while you brought it up, what did this mysterious immediate pressure lead to? 500+ yards given up, and just 2 sacks? Oh yeah, great pressure by our front 4.

 

You clearly missed the point that I was supporting from the other poster.  Which was Cincys front 4 pressure and defense performed much much better than what we did.  Our defense lacked a top edge rusher all season, for the past few years.  Difficult to be a super bowl team, without one.

 

But continue to find useless "immediate pressure" stats, that Jerry Hughes seems to always be great at, but not actually getting the sack.  I think the front office agrees.  Take care as well

Where is the $90m coming from?  By my math, it's $72m...of which Von is $51m.  So....why are we throwing around this figure, when Vons contract heavily skews the discussion?

 

Point being, the front office saw a glaring need to find a true difference maker to rush the passer.  Outside of that 1 contract, we invested similar on both sides of the ball...albeit a bit more on defense, when considering our draft class.

Ya with you buddy. Been asking a great pass rusher for a couple years.

[NewEra]

5 hours ago, Magox said:

 

What sort of stats are these?  

 

And Cincinnati was rushing with 3 much of the second half and dropping back an additional defender.   

 

 

Bills pass rush was not championship caliber

 

 

You are asking everyone to not trust their lying eyes and go with some cherry picked stat.  Bottom line is that it was pretty much universally accepted that the pass rush was inadequate against Mahomes, he was sacked once and hit just twice.  He had tons of time against a 4 man pass rush and when there was a rusher it was easy for him to evade.

 

This is a weird hill for you or anyone to die on, pretty much everyone knows that the pass rush that day stunk.

 

The point is that the offense was miles ahead of the defense on that day and when the Bills lost last year, most of the time it was because the defense couldn't close out the game.

 

Selecting a 1st round DB and adding Von Miller addresses what were our biggest weaknesses that prevented us from getting to the SuperBowl.

 

I thought the pass rush vs Mahomes was good.  Mahomes did a tremendous job of feeling the pressure and escaping, while our secondary pass rush (clean up guys) were invisible and got stoned walled.  We had initial pressure but the DL as a group couldn’t converge and contain him.  
 

Edit:  That said….I’m glad we did signed Miller, Settle, Jones, Phillips and Shaq this offseason….along with elam.   The investment definitely cut into our offensive spending, but I think we’ll be ok barring certain injuries 

Edited June 19, 2022 by NewEra

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I thought the pass rush vs Mahomes was good.  Mahomes did a tremendous job of feeling the pressure and escaping, while our secondary pass rush (clean up guys) were invisible and got stoned walled.  We had initial pressure but the DL as a group couldn’t converge and contain him.  
 

Edit:  That said….I’m glad we did signed Miller, Settle, Jones, Phillips and Shaq this offseason….along with elam.   The investment definitely cut into our offensive spending, but I think we’ll be ok barring certain injuries 

Ya it was much needed on defense. Power running team's Bills struggling as well. Glad to pick up some good run defenders. Regular season In case if they play in playoffs as well in case. Needed a number 2 CB. Backup  lb who seems to doing well. Miller is going to help lots I feel. So much more helpful needs on defense.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

Where is the $90m coming from?  By my math, it's $72m...of which Von is $51m.  So....why are we throwing around this figure, when Vons contract heavily skews the discussion?

 

Point being, the front office saw a glaring need to find a true difference maker to rush the passer.  Outside of that 1 contract, we invested similar on both sides of the ball...albeit a bit more on defense, when considering our draft class.

 

 

@Logic was including free agency and the draft in whatever bullish*t he was trying to say..........he doesn't even know what the point was.......he was just triggered.    

 

And of course,  the first round pick is by far the most valuable chip..........Kaiir Elam alone adds $14M in guaranteed money.    By the time you get to round 3,  Bernard only got $1M gtd.  

 

By trade value they used about 900 points on defense and 300 points on offense in the draft.  

 

So they used about 3x as much guaranteed money on D in UFA and 3x the draft capital on D.

 

That's a significant disparity.........having to pick $65M off the top to call them "similar" only accentuates the point.    

 

They did add a lot of luke-warm bodies on offense and re-signed Bates(who I generously included as a $9M "addition")..........but they need bodies on offense because they have spent most of their first picks on defense under McBeane.

 

 They have 5 of their own first round picks playing on defense.    They have just Allen and Diggs(by trade) as first round invested chips on offense.

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

57 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I thought the pass rush vs Mahomes was good.  Mahomes did a tremendous job of feeling the pressure and escaping, while our secondary pass rush (clean up guys) were invisible and got stoned walled.  We had initial pressure but the DL as a group couldn’t converge and contain him.  
 

Edit:  That said….I’m glad we did signed Miller, Settle, Jones, Phillips and Shaq this offseason….along with elam.   The investment definitely cut into our offensive spending, but I think we’ll be ok barring certain injuries 

 

I am a big fan of the Miller signing.  

 

But where you start to think they aren't supporting Josh Allen enough is when they invest in starter level contracts for both Settle, Jones AND Phillips............but then replace Beasley and Sanders with dirt cheap flyers and basically just exchanged Williams out with Saffold on their weakest unit as a team, the OL.    

 

How about throwing those flyers at the defensive side of the ball?   Why does Ed Oliver's backup need to be a $5M/year player but the starting slot receiver is a guy on a 1 year $2M prove-it deal?  

 

The difference between me and a lot of the dopes in this thread on the subject is that I can look at it objectively.    Thinking about it doesn't cause me any angst.

 

The people who think I am too critical will be pondering ending it all in their living room if the Bills lose at home to.......say the Jets on December 11........ next season because the OL couldn't block or the receivers can't get open.    But win or lose I will be out in the parking lot after the game eating wings and laughing and enjoying the day like I always do.    

 

[NewEra]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I am a big fan of the Miller signing.  

 

But where you start to think they aren't supporting Josh Allen enough is when they invest in starter level contracts for both Settle, Jones AND Phillips............but then replace Beasley and Sanders with dirt cheap flyers and basically just exchanged Williams out with Saffold on their weakest unit as a team, the OL.    

 

How about throwing those flyers at the defensive side of the ball?   Why does Ed Oliver's backup need to be a $5M/year player but the starting slot receiver is a guy on a 1 year $2M prove-it deal?  

 

The difference between me and a lot of the dopes in this thread on the subject is that I can look at it objectively.    Thinking about it doesn't cause me any angst.

 

The people who think I am too critical will be pondering ending it all in their living room if the Bills lose at home to.......say the Jets on December 11........ next season because the OL couldn't block or the receivers can't get open.    But win or lose I will be out in the parking lot after the game eating wings and laughing and enjoying the day like I always do.    

 

I get where you’re coming from.  I agree with a lot of what you said.  Sucks that you have to be such a douche all the time.  

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

They are definitely more comfortable evaluating defense than they are offense…. And I think McDermott plays a huge role in the disparity of defense vs offense investment.

You do???  We never would’ve thought, thanks for filling us in

[Buffalo_Stampede]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I am a big fan of the Miller signing.  

 

But where you start to think they aren't supporting Josh Allen enough is when they invest in starter level contracts for both Settle, Jones AND Phillips............but then replace Beasley and Sanders with dirt cheap flyers and basically just exchanged Williams out with Saffold on their weakest unit as a team, the OL.    

 

How about throwing those flyers at the defensive side of the ball?   Why does Ed Oliver's backup need to be a $5M/year player but the starting slot receiver is a guy on a 1 year $2M prove-it deal?  

 

The difference between me and a lot of the dopes in this thread on the subject is that I can look at it objectively.    Thinking about it doesn't cause me any angst.

 

The people who think I am too critical will be pondering ending it all in their living room if the Bills lose at home to.......say the Jets on December 11........ next season because the OL couldn't block or the receivers can't get open.    But win or lose I will be out in the parking lot after the game eating wings and laughing and enjoying the day like I always do.    

 

You’ve been beating this horse all offseason. Just admit you think Gabe Davis is trash. There is no other reason for this talk.

 

[Doc]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I am a big fan of the Miller signing.  

 

But where you start to think they aren't supporting Josh Allen enough is when they invest in starter level contracts for both Settle, Jones AND Phillips............but then replace Beasley and Sanders with dirt cheap flyers and basically just exchanged Williams out with Saffold on their weakest unit as a team, the OL.    

 

How about throwing those flyers at the defensive side of the ball?   Why does Ed Oliver's backup need to be a $5M/year player but the starting slot receiver is a guy on a 1 year $2M prove-it deal?  

 

The difference between me and a lot of the dopes in this thread on the subject is that I can look at it objectively.    Thinking about it doesn't cause me any angst.

 

The people who think I am too critical will be pondering ending it all in their living room if the Bills lose at home to.......say the Jets on December 11........ next season because the OL couldn't block or the receivers can't get open.    But win or lose I will be out in the parking lot after the game eating wings and laughing and enjoying the day like I always do.  

 

WRT WR, they got Crowder cheap.  Great.  I'll let the season play out before declaring he's washed based solely on last year playing with a struggling rookie, or his salary.  Maybe there was a better, higher-priced slot WR out there I don't know.  And you've been banging the drum about rookie WRs because they are cheap for 4 years.  Well here we have Davis, who is on his rookie contract, who deserves his chance to start.  They weren't drafting another WR high.  They did draft Shakir, who I would put on the outside since there's a glut of slot WRs.

 

And Saffold replaces Bates and Bates replaces Williams, and they signed a bunch of veterans as backups.  They weren't signing anyone to replace Dawkins, Morse or Brown.  So if you put any stock into Kromer as an OL coach, you have to think he knows what he's doing with these moves.

 

Similarly at TE, they weren't paying big money for a 2nd TE so they took a shot on Howard.  I was never a big fan but I'll wait and see.  And it looks like Quintin Morris might be making some noise.

 

And at RB, they don't value the position highly enough to spend a really high pick on one (I consider Cook essentially a 3rd rounder after the trade downs) or pay a lot for one in FA.  Singletary averaged 4.6 YPC without the benefit of ripping-off huge runs or good run-blocking and Cook appears to be a guy who can make 3rd downs a nightmare for opposing defenses.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Doc

[NoHuddleKelly12]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I am a big fan of the Miller signing.  

 

But where you start to think they aren't supporting Josh Allen enough is when they invest in starter level contracts for both Settle, Jones AND Phillips............but then replace Beasley and Sanders with dirt cheap flyers and basically just exchanged Williams out with Saffold on their weakest unit as a team, the OL.    

 

How about throwing those flyers at the defensive side of the ball?   Why does Ed Oliver's backup need to be a $5M/year player but the starting slot receiver is a guy on a 1 year $2M prove-it deal?  

 

The difference between me and a lot of the dopes in this thread on the subject is that I can look at it objectively.    Thinking about it doesn't cause me any angst.

 

The people who think I am too critical will be pondering ending it all in their living room if the Bills lose at home to.......say the Jets on December 11........ next season because the OL couldn't block or the receivers can't get open.    But win or lose I will be out in the parking lot after the game eating wings and laughing and enjoying the day like I always do.    

 

And yet somehow we’re still considered better (including on O) than we were in January, and #1 in King’s power rankings based on those same moves…

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/05/23/2022-nfl-power-rankings-fmia-peter-king/

[Dr. Who]

8 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You’ve been beating this horse all offseason. Just admit you think Gabe Davis is trash. There is no other reason for this talk.

 

I've never heard him say that. He thinks Davis has been injury prone, which is true, and that he is unproven as a consistent and reliable threat despite some individual spectacular days. I like Davis, but I would have preferred a bigger investment at outside speed receiver with size. 

[Don Otreply]

On 6/17/2022 at 10:05 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Bills guaranteed $90M to just 4 defensive free agents plus their first round pick this offseason.

 

This to benefit what had been the league's #1 ranked defense in 2021.

 

They guaranteed just $25M combined to 12 offensive-side free agents/draft picks.......9 of which you listed.  

 

A relative pittance. 

 

This after they cut 15 and 16 game starters Williams and Beasley and also their second most productive boundary receiver(Sanders). 

 

They lost as much or more production on offense as they had on defense.      

 

So yes.........as @ScottLaw said......."they sacriced investment on offense" to the benefit of the defense.

 

Obviously.

 

Taking offense to that with your snarky list of tired vets and injury fliers was laughably illogical..........but that's why your screen name is an antiaptronym.........the opposite of what you are and what you do.

 

You and Scottlaw are clones, right? 😁👍

 

Go Bills!!!

[MasterStrategist]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

@Logic was including free agency and the draft in whatever bullish*t he was trying to say..........he doesn't even know what the point was.......he was just triggered.    

 

And of course,  the first round pick is by far the most valuable chip..........Kaiir Elam alone adds $14M in guaranteed money.    By the time you get to round 3,  Bernard only got $1M gtd.  

 

By trade value they used about 900 points on defense and 300 points on offense in the draft.  

 

So they used about 3x as much guaranteed money on D in UFA and 3x the draft capital on D.

 

That's a significant disparity.........having to pick $65M off the top to call them "similar" only accentuates the point.    

 

They did add a lot of luke-warm bodies on offense and re-signed Bates(who I generously included as a $9M "addition")..........but they need bodies on offense because they have spent most of their first picks on defense under McBeane.

 

 They have 5 of their own first round picks playing on defense.    They have just Allen and Diggs(by trade) as first round invested chips on offense.

 

 

 

Yeah, we clearly spent more $$$s and draft capital on the defensive side of the ball this offseason.  Everyone should be able to agree ont that.

 

"Opinions" come into play on what we could've/ should've done.  To me, the investments were targeted just as I saw our weaknesses last season/couple seasons, and at areas that would most upgrade our overall team results:

1. Needed a premier pass rusher ✔️ 

2. Needed more physical DTs/disruptive in the middle ✔️ 

3. Upgradable at CB2, more speed and length ✔️ 

4. Upgradable/Need playmakers with more YAC ability ✔️ 

 

Personally, alot boils down to what people think of these combination of players on offense.  I think we upgraded in three major ways:

1. More playing time for Davis, over Manny

2. YAC and speed in the slot: Crowder, more PT for McKenzie and Shakir Vs Beas who had clearly lost a step or two

3. Versatility with player personnel: we clearly wanted a pass catching back with elusiveness (Mckissic) but then got a good one in Cook.  Howard, even if not his former self, is a huge upgrade over Sweeney at TE2.  He at the very least gives a receiving/RZ threat.

 

On top of all that, I think Saffold is a better Guard than Williams (there's a clear reason he and other guys we cut are not signed). 

 

And, we have young talent that is still developing on offense that will command big $$$s in the next 2 offseasons (Knox, Davis).  So get ready for the $$$ investment to flip soon.

 

Not sure how educated fans can watch what happened to us in key games (ie: Chiefs, Titans, Pats game 1, even Steelers week 1) and realize that our defensive weaknesses were very real and needed fixed if we would have a shot to go to a super bowl

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by MasterStrategist

[Dr. Who]

12 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Yeah, we clearly spent more $$$s and draft capital on the defensive side of the ball this offseason.  Everyone should be able to agree ont that.

 

"Opinions" come into play on what we could've/ should've done.  To me, the investments were targeted just as I saw our weaknesses last season/couple seasons, and at areas that would most upgrade our overall team results:

1. Needed a premier pass rusher ✔️ 

2. Needed more physical DTs/disruptive in the middle ✔️ 

3. Upgradable at CB2, more speed and length ✔️ 

4. Upgradable/Need playmakers with more YAC ability ✔️ 

 

Personally, alot boils down to what people think of these combination of players on offense.  I think we upgraded in three major ways:

1. More playing time for Davis, over Manny

2. YAC and speed in the slot: Crowder, more PT for McKenzie and Shakir Vs Beas who had clearly lost a step or two

3. Versatility with player personnel: we clearly wanted a pass catching back with elusiveness (Mckissic) but then got a good one in Cook.  Howard, even if not his former self, is a huge upgrade over Sweeney at TE2.  He at the very least gives a receiving/RZ threat.

 

On top of all that, I think Saffold is a better Guard than Williams (there's a clear reason he and other guys we cut are not signed). 

 

And, we have young talent that is still developing on offense that will command big $$$s in the next 2 offseasons (Knox, Davis).  So get ready for the $$$ investment to flip soon.

 

Not sure how educated fans can watch what happened to us in key games (ie: Chiefs, Titans, Pats game 1, even Steelers week 1) and realize that our defensive weaknesses were very real and needed fixed if we would have a shot to go to a super bowl

 

 

Well, I think this is nicely stated. The view that doesn't make sense to you, however, is capable of cogent rationale. It boils down to the judgement that the rules and inclination of the contemporary NFL inevitably favor the offense. Even the best defense has to tilt against not only the opposing offense, but the way the game is officiated and the predisposition to allow for high scoring games. In that case, it might be more prudent to stack the offense if you are fortunate enough to have a top echelon qb who magnifies the abilities of the players around him. That way, you are always in a position to compete even on days when the defense is subpar or the score escalates regardless because of the constant of what kind of game is prioritized.

 

None of that means ignore the defense or refuses to admit deficiencies that needed to be addressed. Then it becomes a question of what needs are prioritized over others. It's evident that so far the regime has heavily favored the D which is counter to the way the game is currently played. It doesn't mean it's wrong, but you are asking Allen to bear more of the load than he would have to if you increased investment with superior draft picks and free agents on his side of the ball. The model we are following increases the danger of a shortened career and injury when Allen turns into the chief running option in playoffs and important games down the stretch in the regular season. One accepts some of that for the post-season, but it is stll best to minimize the need.

 

Naturally, if young talent develps on offense, that mitigates the situation, but it doesn't change analyses of where we have chosen to concentrate resources.

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, NewEra said:

I get where you’re coming from.  I agree with a lot of what you said.  Sucks that you have to be such a douche all the time.  

You do???  We never would’ve thought, thanks for filling us in

 

Does it suck?   Nobody can legitimately argue that I don't offer a lot of well supported football opinions.   I back up what I say and my objective is to promote discussion.

 

But in lieu of people wanting to actually discuss football topics........the board needs its villains.  

 

If Scott and I weren't around it would be someone like you getting personally attacked and straw manned because you have learned to "dabble" in reality at least.    I don't think you could take that.......I've seen how you react to the extremely mild criticism you get........it would bruise the homer inside you.

 

Scott and I have clearly identified roles.........people attack him and he doesn't give them the satisfaction of returning their vitriol.   Which makes them angrier and in some cases, like Donny Two-ply......it gives them SOMETHING to contribute to the board.

 

I give their snark right back to them and then some.......and laugh.......which hurts their feelings.   If they can't take it or if they start jumping into football discussions to vaguely air their personal grievances with me,  I block them.  Which makes them follow my posts even closer.   That's how this works.    

 

The board can't be split 50/50 between folks who just drink the kool aid and those who are waiting for the glass to fill up first........but it wouldn't be very entertaining if it was a complete circle jerk.  

 

   

Edited June 19, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[eball]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

It's evident that so far the regime has heavily favored the D

 

I don’t believe it’s evident at all.

• Acquired draft capital to move up and select Josh Allen - the most important player on the roster
• Drafted running backs in three consecutive years in the 3rd round or higher
• Traded a 1st round pick for Diggs
• Drafted Knox in the 3rd round
• Signed Beasley, Brown, Sanders as FA WRs

A lot of people want to believe the Bills have overly concentrated on defense because they associate McDermott with being a defensive-minded coach.  I don’t think the facts support that assessment.

 

[MasterStrategist]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Well, I think this is nicely stated. The view that doesn't make sense to you, however, is capable of cogent rationale. It boils down to the judgement that the rules and inclination of the contemporary NFL inevitably favor the offense. Even the best defense has to tilt against not only the opposing offense, but the way the game is officiated and the predisposition to allow for high scoring games. In that case, it might be more prudent to stack the offense if you are fortunate enough to have a top echelon qb who magnifies the abilities of the players around him. That way, you are always in a position to compete even on days when the defense is subpar or the score escalates regardless because of the constant of what kind of game is prioritized.

 

None of that means ignore the defense or refuses to admit deficiencies that needed to be addressed. Then it becomes a question of what needs are prioritized over others. It's evident that so far the regime has heavily favored the D which is counter to the way the game is currently played. It doesn't mean it's wrong, but you are asking Allen to bear more of the load than he would have to if you increased investment with superior draft picks and free agents on his side of the ball. The model we are following increases the danger of a shortened career and injury when Allen turns into the chief running option in playoffs and important games down the stretch in the regular season. One accepts some of that for the post-season, but it is stll best to minimize the need.

 

Naturally, if young talent develps on offense, that mitigates the situation, but it doesn't change analyses of where we have chosen to concentrate resources.

Saying that the NFL has turned into an offensive league, isn't absent on me or others.

 

I'm simply saying where would we have looked to "stack" offensive talent, that we don't already have?  Oline is the only area, specifically G play, that I'd say sure.  But they clearly think Bates can be an answer and Saffold will be a good/solid addition ( no worse than we've had, imo).

 

The skill players are currently: Diggs, Davis, Knox, Motor, Cook, Crowder, McKenzie, Shakir, and Moss.  Only potential gap is if Davis and Diggs go down for a prolonged period.  This is a stacked group, that has 1 all-pro, likely 2 future pro bowlers in Davis and Knox, and other talent.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, MasterStrategist said:

Saying that the NFL has turned into an offensive league, isn't absent on me or others.

 

I'm simply saying where would we have looked to "stack" offensive talent, that we don't already have?  Oline is the only area, specifically G play, that I'd say sure.  But they clearly think Bates can be an answer and Saffold will be a good/solid addition ( no worse than we've had, imo).

 

The skill players are currently: Diggs, Davis, Knox, Motor, Cook, Crowder, McKenzie, Shakir, and Moss.  Only potential gap is if Davis and Diggs go down for a prolonged period.  This is a stacked group, that has 1 all-pro, likely 2 future pro bowlers in Davis and Knox, and other talent.

In your list, the only one who is proven elite is Diggs. Some may get there -- I like Knox, some are serviceable vets like Crowder. Rb room is not exceptional, though Singletary was playing well late and in the post-season. I've already said elsewhere I wanted an elite outside WR, that's where I would have invested, though I understand Elam and that's not foolish.

20 minutes ago, eball said:

 

I don’t believe it’s evident at all.

• Acquired draft capital to move up and select Josh Allen - the most important player on the roster
• Drafted running backs in three consecutive years in the 3rd round or higher
• Traded a 1st round pick for Diggs
• Drafted Knox in the 3rd round
• Signed Beasley, Brown, Sanders as FA WRs

A lot of people want to believe the Bills have overly concentrated on defense because they associate McDermott with being a defensive-minded coach.  I don’t think the facts support that assessment.

 

I suppose there is some semantic gray area. No one is saying there has been no attention to offense. It's the relative weight, which you interpret one way and I another.

[HappyDays]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

By trade value they used about 900 points on defense and 300 points on offense in the draft.  

 

So they used about 3x as much guaranteed money on D in UFA and 3x the draft capital on D.

 

This is, again, looking at team building in a vacuum. Look at the offseason in context of what we lost from last year:

 

Major defensive losses:

-Starting CB (not to mention White still recovering from an ACL tear)

-2 starting edge rushers

-2 starting/rotational DTs

 

Major offensive losses:

-Starting/rotational outside WR

-Starting slot WR

-Starting guard

 

If you rewind the roster to just before free agency we literally wouldn't have been able to field a starting defense. The starting offense would have still been okay, albeit quite thin at a couple positions. The two biggest needs by far were pass rusher and CB. Both positions were already needs during the season and got worse. It was obvious then that the defense was going to need major investments to keep it in the top tier, and that's what Beane did. The offense needed gaps filled in and ideally one dynamic playmaker added, and that's what Beane did.

 

Basically both sides of the team added players to fill every hole that was lost in the offseason, and both sides got one luxury player added in the draft - Cook for the offense, Bernard for the defense. So it was actually an even distribution of investment when you consider what the offense and defense needed to compete at a championship level.

[MasterStrategist]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

In your list, the only one who is proven elite is Diggs. Some may get there -- I like Knox, some are serviceable vets like Crowder. Rb room is not exceptional, though Singletary was playing well late and in the post-season. I've already said elsewhere I wanted an elite outside WR, that's where I would have invested, though I understand Elam and that's not foolish.

I suppose there is some semantic gray area. No one is saying there has been no attention to offense. It's the relative weight, which you interpret one way and I another.

Noted that Davis is not high on your list.  Many teammates, front office. and coaches have been singing his praises this offseason. 

 

That's what this truly boils down to for many...is Davis who we think can be a solid/consistent #2 opposite Diggs.  Those in your camp think we needed to upgrade, while others have seen enough to have faith he will deliver for us.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Beane started off one of his pre draft pressers by praising Gabe Davis

 

Yeah and he said in his post draft presser, in reference to picking Cook, that they wanted to obtain a "dynamic playmaker" in this draft. So WR was of course on the table. What they weren't going to do was reach down their board to take one just because. In the draft they added a pass catching RB and a WR, in free agency they improved TE2 and the slot position. But for you it was never going to be good enough unless they took a WR in the 1st round. You said as much before the draft. Get over it.