Marvlevydraftdaygenius Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 No it is not flawed. But the man who is calling the defense who is flawed. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nedboy7 Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, papazoid said: LACK OF TALENT is the problem on D-line bills have 10 mediocre players....not 1 is really good. Its insane that we have to listen to this garbage for months now. Good lord. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvlevydraftdaygenius Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said: No it is not flawed. But the man who is calling the defense who is flawed. Anybody on this board prove me wrong that Frazier is an asset to this team? He reminds me of Walt Corey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 hours ago, wjag said: I know a lot of folks want to highlight the DLINE, but if you replay the final set of downs in that game, Matt Milano was the victim. He couldn't keep up with Kelce. Now having said that, Cincy did a phenomenal job of contain. And they clearly watched the Bills game and learned from it. They were at times rushing just three DLINE and dropping everyone else in coverage at key downs in the game. The Bengals also put a spy on Mahomes so that he couldn't run at will like he did against the Bills. It was the spy who finally sacked Mahomes on third down to force them to kick the FG to tie on the last play in regulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 9 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said: Fundamentally I have no problem with the concept—but I do want impact guys in depth, so that each rotation like a hockey shift can still get home at any time. There’s no question that Dlinemen tire quicker than their counterparts, so I get why we do it. Just do it effectively! The problem with "impact guys in depth" is the salary cap. The Bills are already near the top of the league in DL spending the last 2 seasons. 16 minutes ago, nedboy7 said: Its insane that we have to listen to this garbage for months now. Good lord. You'll figure out pretty soon what people are banging the same drum. Put them in your ignore list and rest easy. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasBB Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Maybe the DL wouldn't be so gassed if they were not running off and on the field all the time 😏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 6 hours ago, inaugural balls said: Run out of gas? Isn’t the very premise of the rotation supposed to prevent just such a thing? Yes, it is. Isn’t the very premise of an offseason to build a super bowl winner? It just isn’t guaranteed in every case. The rotation worked great for most of the season. It didn’t vs KC in the playoffs. It did work vs KC in the regular season. isn’t the very premise of paying a DT 25-30M per year so they can dominate and and help you win a super bowl? It worked for KC 2 years ago. It helped them beat us in the AFCCG game last year. Chris Jones didn’t dominate us this year and we would have won if McD didn’t fail. Chris Jones didn’t dominate vs the bengals and they lost. But isn’t the very premise of paying a superstar a large sum of money so they can dominate…… It’s a game of football. Sometimes things don’t work out as planned. Sometimes they do. maybe we should create our own superstar create a player so we can have an elite pass rusher. As of now, we’re 2.8 under the cap for next year. Good luck. Signing that elite pass rusher while also sufficiently filling the holes created by cutting several players. 1 hour ago, nedboy7 said: Its insane that we have to listen to this garbage for months now. Good lord. 1 hour ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said: Anybody on this board prove me wrong that Frazier is an asset to this team? He reminds me of Walt Corey. your posting skills remind me of Marv Levy, the draft day genius 1 hour ago, papazoid said: LACK OF TALENT is the problem on D-line bills have 10 mediocre players....not 1 is really good. Ed is really good 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djp14150 Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 10 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: Goes back many years , really to the 90’s Cowboys era. Those Cowboys teams were stacked on the DL, so their line kept fresh was overwhelming. Gotta have the quality for it to matter. Other part are role players are pass down vs run stuffers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein's Dog Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 9 hours ago, Jim said: You yourself said they ran out of gas. If you're playing only a spot role, how are you out of gas in the 4th quarter? Isn't that what the whole rotation thing was supposed to remedy? To me, as an earlier poster stated, its more about the fact that we have a bunch of half assed talent on the d-line outside of Oliver (and perhaps Harry, who's been coming on strong). It was an unusual, high scoring, frenetic game, where even the rotational players were exhausted. How do you think a smaller rotation would have fared in that environment? They would have been more exhausted! The loss is not on the DL. And the game in no way is indicative of a failed DL philosophy. Your reasoning is flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 minute ago, Einstein's Dog said: It was an unusual, high scoring, frenetic game, where even the rotational players were exhausted. How do you think a smaller rotation would have fared in that environment? They would have been more exhausted! The loss is not on the DL. And the game in no way is indicative of a failed DL philosophy. Your reasoning is flawed. So they would have been more exhausted? Well. I don’t think any more exhaustion would’ve produced any worse result so I guess we might as well not blow all our money on a d-line who can’t get it done. Enough of the trying to half ass it with role players in bit parts. Either develop our high picks into impact players or go after a real pass rusher, instead of middling it with Obada, Boogie, AJ and Mario. And Jerry was good at a time, but that time is long past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein's Dog Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 3 minutes ago, Jim said: So they would have been more exhausted? Well. I don’t think any more exhaustion would’ve produced any worse result so I guess we might as well not blow all our money on a d-line who can’t get it done. Enough of the trying to half ass it with role players in bit parts. Either develop our high picks into impact players or go after a real pass rusher, instead of middling it with Obada, Boogie, AJ and Mario. And Jerry was good at a time, but that time is long past. They are trying to develop the draft picks. That's a key part to the overall strategy. Going after real pass rushers comes at a large expense. JJWatt was $17M and even a post prime Jerry will fetch a pretty penny. I would rather have had Tre While in there than an exhausted JJ Watt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilthyBeast Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 11 hours ago, Jim said: Topic kinda speaks for itself. Everybody was talking about how gassed our defense was at the end of last week's game. And when one considers what that means, it usually speaks of the poor pass rushers who just run out of gas. But errrr....isn't Seany's beloved rotational d-line scheme supposed to keep our half-assed defensive line talent "fresh" whereas other teams with actual star players, their guys get tired, so that's a win for us. I think McDermott needs to learn that the rotation is trash. Get good players, and get decent depth. Cuz trotting Vernon Butler out there or AJ Epenesa to spell whoever hasn't helped anybody. And likely has made the growth of Groot and Boogie a longer project as they haven't gotten on the field as much as they otherwise would have. If you truly have great depth across the board the rotation thing has merits. But it's been proven time and time again that outside of Oliver, this dline has pretty much nothing other than Carolina Panther castoffs and questionable draft picks by Beane. So if this team is truly serious about taking the next step in 2022 outside of Oliver and Rousseau (and probably Basham) you can essentially build from scratch and still think DT is a monster need even if Phillips is brought back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LABILLBACKER Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1. I don't have a problem with a rotation but we need better DE's. 2. I would also appreciate a Frazier/McD rotation. It's not like Sean doesn't take over play calls anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaB Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 It keeps our average players fresh. That’s the idea isn’t it? Ed and Harry are finally looking starting to look the part so there is a possibility it’s slowing down the progression of our young players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 19 hours ago, Jim said: Topic kinda speaks for itself. Everybody was talking about how gassed our defense was at the end of last week's game. And when one considers what that means, it usually speaks of the poor pass rushers who just run out of gas. But errrr....isn't Seany's beloved rotational d-line scheme supposed to keep our half-assed defensive line talent "fresh" whereas other teams with actual star players, their guys get tired, so that's a win for us. I think McDermott needs to learn that the rotation is trash. Get good players, and get decent depth. Cuz trotting Vernon Butler out there or AJ Epenesa to spell whoever hasn't helped anybody. And likely has made the growth of Groot and Boogie a longer project as they haven't gotten on the field as much as they otherwise would have. I'm thinking of John Fina's podcast and how he has decided no one on the line except Oliver knows what they are going to do as a pass rush move before the snap, and how that's easy pickings for an OL in this league. I don't think the rotational idea is silly; seems to make sense, but only if you have the bodies to rotate into the game! We are desperately short on talent on the DL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 14 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: I'm thinking of John Fina's podcast and how he has decided no one on the line except Oliver knows what they are going to do as a pass rush move before the snap, and how that's easy pickings for an OL in this league. I don't think the rotational idea is silly; seems to make sense, but only if you have the bodies to rotate into the game! We are desperately short on talent on the DL. I actually think just the opposite. If you have 3 or 4 top players, then forget the crazy rotation. If you have a bunch of JAGs then you might as well play them all and at least keep them as fresh as possible. So, I think the Bills are doing the right thing WRT the talent they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 I expect to see a lot of rotation next year but with the old guys gone I don't see 10 D Lineman on the starting 53. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyoAZBillfan Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 I’m not sure if they were “gassed” but if that is what caused the D to forget how to tackle... then yeah rotation gets the blame. many times Pattycakes was pressured and even grabbed, yet like the other skill players they managed to squirm away from defenders. Plenty of fundamentals were lacking from that side of the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
947 Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 We're gonna have a hard time signing any good free agent DEs when all we can promise them is 59% of the snaps. Our DL players can never make All Pro or Pro Bowls because they don't play enough snaps to get the necessary sack & tackle numbers. The rotation sucks, just spell guys when they need it, like the other 31 teams do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 20 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: Goes back many years , really to the 90’s Cowboys era. Those Cowboys teams were stacked on the DL, so their line kept fresh was overwhelming. Gotta have the quality for it to matter. They also didn’t have to deal with the cap, pay a QB to the degree we do in the NFL now, and then of course Dallas got into serious cap jail issues we don’t see anymore. Needing a deep DL is more luxury than necessity. Particularly as Josh’s contract kicks in for 2023. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, BillsVet said: They also didn’t have to deal with the cap, pay a QB to the degree we do in the NFL now, and then of course Dallas got into serious cap jail issues we don’t see anymore. Needing a deep DL is more luxury than necessity. Particularly as Josh’s contract kicks in for 2023. Of course not, at least in the early 90’s However that wasn’t the question or purpose of the thread. Coaches coach and GMs do what they do , but the roots of the defensive philosophy Are still the same. Dallas wanted to play their DL in waves / platoons to keep them fresh. Some coaches have been taught this philosophy over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said: Of course not, at least in the early 90’s However that wasn’t the question or purpose of the thread. Coaches coach and GMs do what they do , but the roots of the defensive philosophy Are still the same. Dallas wanted to play their DL in waves / platoons to keep them fresh. Some coaches have been taught this philosophy over the years. I get that. But drawing comparisons to the pre-cap days to illustrate that something is relevant now is almost irrelevant. Front offices and HC's have to consider cap implications in personnel spending...as in paying a QB in Buffalo's case about 20% of their cap dollars beginning in 2023. Sure, there's an on-field component, but it's not a scheme or plan that can be viewed only in that frame. Because, if Buffalo is spending ~20% on their QB and another 23% (as they did in 2021) on their DL, it definitely creates a challenge to support the QB who just got a quarter billion dollar extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 You know to hear some people thought you would think that our defense sucked rather than being number one in the league I know people hate to hear that because we got demolished by Kansas City but the numbers do speak for themselves they didn’t suck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 1 minute ago, BillsVet said: I get that. But drawing comparisons to the pre-cap days to illustrate that something is relevant now is almost irrelevant. Front offices and HC's have to consider cap implications in personnel spending...as in paying a QB in Buffalo's case about 20% of their cap dollars beginning in 2023. Sure, there's an on-field component, but it's not a scheme or plan that can be viewed only in that frame. Because, if Buffalo is spending ~20% on their QB and another 23% (as they did in 2021) on their DL, it definitely creates a challenge to support the QB who just got a quarter billion dollar extension. Never said it was relevant or valid. I’m not implying it is. Just that there are coaches in the league now who have been taught it early on in their careers and still believe it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Paulson Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 11 hours ago, costrovs said: This. 100%. Someone once said in regards to QB's and RB's, If you have 2, then you don't have 1. (This applies to us at RB also) Well, we have 8 D-Linemen. Edmunds played 100% of the snaps for 11 games this year including the playoffs. His least being week 2 @ Miami at 61% Rousseau had 11 games this year with less than 50% of the snaps, with his highest being week 2 @ Miami at 66% You want him to be a sack machine and learn the game better? well give him 75%+ snaps and stop rotating everyone around 50%. Rotating the DL keeps them fresh for sure, but it'll also limit there growth. The more playing time they give Rousseau, Boogy, Oliver, AJ, and whoever else they decide to draft this year, the better they'll be. the other thing is if you only play 30 snaps a game during the season it is tough to play 60 snaps a game in the playoffs. your conditioning is off and you are always looking for that same break. you need to stretch them out like a starting pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: You know to hear some people thought you would think that our defense sucked rather than being number one in the league I know people hate to hear that because we got demolished by Kansas City but the numbers do speak for themselves they didn’t suck Agreed. The Bills didn’t get demolished by Kansas City either. They beat them once and blew a game that they should have closed out in the rematch. fwiw the Bengals has the 26th ranked pass defense. Was it because they only played elite QBs in 2021 ? Rankings are just that ; they don’t win games for you. You have to be better than your opponent that day. No more or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 (edited) It depends. The season is long. August to now the second weekend in January - if you don't even make the playoffs. Why would you play your starting D linemen say 70 plus percent of the snaps in the following games: Weeks 1-6 In games you should win When you're up more then 1 score - basically game flow I have no problem with a rotation of some sort. Keeping guys healthy long term your odds decrease the more snaps they play. And big people take a beating. I think that's a big part of the thinking. I also have no problem in preparing for say a week 6 game vs Cincinnati or KC they play a bit more. Just depends. Edited February 1, 2022 by Big Blitz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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