Looks like the Bills may have lucked out on their one TD; Daryl Williams

[dave mcbride]

Daryl Williams gave up a very bad sack last night (where he matadored Ekuale at the Pats 44 yard line in the second quarter; see below), but he also did this. Note that while Barnwell says it's the center, it's the LG (Williams). We were lucky that wasn't called given that it was called against the Bills in the Saints game. Williams (#75) is definitely downfield (close to three yards) when the ball is released. I mean, what is he thinking? Personally, I think it's too ticky tack to be called, but it was by definition a penalty and could have been called. I don't want to obsess over this stuff, but that is just sloppy play. I gotta say, he looks overweight and seems to me like a classic case of a guy who got his final big payday and is playing like it.

 

On that sack Williams gave up, Sanders was open for a big play:

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by dave mcbride

[benderbender]

So this was payback?

 

[RoyBatty is alive]

Daryl Williams has been a massive disappointment this year.

 

I am starting to really question our O Line coaching with the ongoing disaster there and players regressing, notably Williams and Dawkins (yes it my be Covid related).Players regressing?  Cody Ford not get ting any better.

[Jerome007]

Just now, RoyBatty is alive said:

Daryl Williams has been a massive disappointment this year.

 

I am starting to really question our O Line coaching with the ongoing disaster there and players regressing, notably Williams and Dawkins (yes it my be Covid related).Players regressing?  Cody Ford not get ting any better.

Indeed. I have totally gone against the Gloom and the "Fire everyone" crowd after a loss, but last year, while the OL sucked at run blocking, they often shined at giving Josh tons of time to throw. What happened this year to go backwards?

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Indeed. I have totally gone against the Gloom and the "Fire everyone" crowd after a loss, but last year, while the OL sucked at run blocking, they often shined at giving Josh tons of time to throw. What happened this year to go backwards?

I'm thinking payday, at least in Williams' case.

[BuffaloBillyG]

9 minutes ago, benderbender said:

So this was payback?

 

I despise when people use a single frame from TV to attempt to make a point. Gee, from that snapshot one could also say the CB was turning to play the ball and Knox held him up. 

[Johnnycage46]

7 minutes ago, No Place To Hyde said:

I despise when people use a single frame from TV to attempt to make a point. Gee, from that snapshot one could also say the CB was turning to play the ball and Knox held him up. 

 

But even if you watch the full play without stopping the clock, it was pretty questionable there.  The DB was basically blocking him...which I believe is legal once the QB leaves the pocket...but once the pass was in the air, the DB kept ahold of Knox and then at the last second turned his head to knock the ball away.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Johnnycage46 said:

 

But even if you watch the full play without stopping the clock, it was pretty questionable there.  The DB was basically blocking him...which I believe is legal once the QB leaves the pocket...but once the pass was in the air, the DB kept ahold of Knox and then at the last second turned his head to knock the ball away.

It is legal, and Allen had been out of the pocket for some time. Personally, I thought it was pretty physical play, but I didn't think it was a penalty. I thought it was good defense. At the defining moment, he out-physicaled Knox. It was a really good play. It was a good throw by Allen too and he made a great play just to get into that position. He should have been sacked.

[FilthyBeast]

22 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Daryl Williams has been a massive disappointment this year.

 

I am starting to really question our O Line coaching with the ongoing disaster there and players regressing, notably Williams and Dawkins (yes it my be Covid related).Players regressing?  Cody Ford not get ting any better.

 

This guy did the same exact thing in Carolina after having an all pro season and signing a big contract, he proceed to suck and get hurt.

 

You would think Beane would have understood this but they let history repeat itself but the good news is I think we can get out of the deal and release him without a big cap hit in the offseason like many other worthless wastes of roster space.

[benderbender]

8 minutes ago, No Place To Hyde said:

I despise when people use a single frame from TV to attempt to make a point. Gee, from that snapshot one could also say the CB was turning to play the ball and Knox held him up. 

From the 35 second mark to the 38 second of the replay, Phillips does not let go of Knox. I despise rules not being applied uniformly. We did plenty to lose the game up until that point. And who knows, we still might not have scored. But you know NE gets that call on the other end of the field. 

[Billl]

15 minutes ago, No Place To Hyde said:

I despise when people use a single frame from TV to attempt to make a point. Gee, from that snapshot one could also say the CB was turning to play the ball and Knox held him up. 

Exactly.  The Patriots player was in better position for the ball and he was looking back at it.  Knox was trying to fight through him, but both players have a right to go for the ball.  The defender doesn’t have to get out of his way as long as his his head is turned.

[dave mcbride]

9 minutes ago, benderbender said:

From the 35 second mark to the 38 second of the replay, Phillips does not let go of Knox. I despise rules not being applied uniformly. We did plenty to lose the game up until that point. And who knows, we still might not have scored. But you know NE gets that call on the other end of the field. 

It is actually a rule that once the QB leaves the pocket, the DB can push the receiver around. Richard Sherman made a living doing this. It's not a penalty. The idea is that once the QB leaves the pocket, there's a strong likelihood that he's going to run it, and receivers can therefore block defenders to help the QB on his run. To make it more even, the defenders are allowed to initiate contact. If he is still doing it while the ball is on the air, it's PI, but in this case he turned around to play the ball just as it was released. It was an excellent play. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by dave mcbride

[benderbender]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It is actually a rule that once the QB leaves the pocket, the DB can push the receiver around. Richard Sherman made a living doing this. It's not a penalty.

Push, yes. Hold? No. Again, NE would get a call. 

[Nextmanup]

They may not have thrown the flag because  #75 was seemingly engaged with #58.

 

The key is the player has to be beyond the line of scrimmage, at the time of the pass, and not engaged with a defensive player (so he looks like a receiver trying to catch a pass).

 

I can't tell from the computer simulation thing if he was engaged or not.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, benderbender said:

Push, yes. Hold? No. Again, NE would get a call. 

It's actually the rule, and it wasn't a hold. I just watched it again. You're allowed to touch an opponent; that's not holding. 

[fasteddie]

But this "rule" doesn't explain why the back judge didn't call PI on the Knox pass on the previous series. DB was holding him the whole way down the middle,  and the pass was mysteriously overthrown. What a surprise that it wasn't called against the Cheatriots.

[TheFunPolice]

2 minutes ago, benderbender said:

Push, yes. Hold? No. Again, NE would get a call. 

 

If that was Gronk the refs would wait a few seconds to let the fans get all excited, then a flag would come triumphantly floating in and Brady would do his little point for a first down motion and it would be 1st and goal at the 1. 

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Nextmanup said:

They may not have thrown the flag because  #75 was seemingly engaged with #58.

 

The key is the player has to be beyond the line of scrimmage, at the time of the pass, and not engaged with a defensive player (so he looks like a receiver trying to catch a pass).

 

I can't tell from the computer simulation thing if he was engaged or not.

 

 

Whether the lineman is engaged or not doesn't matter; it's all about how far downfield he is.

[colin]

40 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Indeed. I have totally gone against the Gloom and the "Fire everyone" crowd after a loss, but last year, while the OL sucked at run blocking, they often shined at giving Josh tons of time to throw. What happened this year to go backwards?

 

 

and they walked teller out of town, and they signed spain, who then quit, and they signed williams, who fell off.  motivation issue?  blocking scheme?  the results suck poop, so it's time for the coaches to get replaced.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Whether the lineman is engaged or not doesn't matter; it's all about how far downfield he is.

 

It very much does matter. As long as an O-linemen engages with the defender within 1 yard of the LOS they are allowed to push them downfield as far as they want. 

 

I can't really tell from these computer generated dots if Williams engages the defender within 1 yard. 

 

NFL rulebook below (emphasis added):

 

ECTION 3 - INELIGIBLE PLAYER DOWNFIELD

ARTICLE 1. LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS

On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.

Item 1. Legally Downfield. An ineligible player is not illegally downfield if, after initiating contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage during his initial charge:

(a) he moves more than one yard beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent

(b) after breaking legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he remains stationary until a forward pass is thrown

(c) after losing legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he is forced behind the line of scrimmage by an opponent, at which time he is again subject to normal blocking restrictions for an ineligible offensive player.
Note: If an ineligible offensive player moves beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent, an eligible offensive player may catch a pass between them and the line of scrimmage.

[JoshAllin]

52 minutes ago, benderbender said:

So this was payback?

 

Knox has horrible awareness, wrap you arms around the guy while his back is turned! He tried to make the low percent catch there

Edited December 7, 2021 by motorj

[BuffaloBillyG]

28 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said:

 

But even if you watch the full play without stopping the clock, it was pretty questionable there.  The DB was basically blocking him...which I believe is legal once the QB leaves the pocket...but once the pass was in the air, the DB kept ahold of Knox and then at the last second turned his head to knock the ball away.

Let's play a game called "What if?"

 

Roles are reversed and Buffalo is on defense. That exact play happens only it's on Micah Hyde. Refs throw the flag...would you still call that DPI? Would it then be a "Ticky tack call" and the refs should let the players play? 

 

And not picking on you or anything sinister. Just seems like the severity of if a call is made or not align more with rooting interests then the actual rule for the most part on these boards.

26 minutes ago, benderbender said:

From the 35 second mark to the 38 second of the replay, Phillips does not let go of Knox. I despise rules not being applied uniformly. We did plenty to lose the game up until that point. And who knows, we still might not have scored. But you know NE gets that call on the other end of the field. 

And again..if NE gets that call...how fast are you saying "That's a BS call" because of rooting interest? 

[Billl]

15 minutes ago, fasteddie said:

But this "rule" doesn't explain why the back judge didn't call PI on the Knox pass on the previous series. DB was holding him the whole way down the middle,  and the pass was mysteriously overthrown. What a surprise that it wasn't called against the Cheatriots.

If you want to convince yourself that the officials cheated you out of the game, that’s your right.  No objective observer is going to agree, though.  Vinovich and his crew are the best in the NFL.  They called a good game, but if either team got the benefit more than the other, it was the Bills.

[dave mcbride]

17 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

It very much does matter. As long as an O-linemen engages with the defender within 1 yard of the LOS they are allowed to push them downfield as far as they want. 

 

I can't really tell from these computer generated dots if Williams engages the defender within 1 yard. 

 

NFL rulebook below (emphasis added):

 

ECTION 3 - INELIGIBLE PLAYER DOWNFIELD

ARTICLE 1. LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS

On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.

Item 1. Legally Downfield. An ineligible player is not illegally downfield if, after initiating contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage during his initial charge:

(a) he moves more than one yard beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent

(b) after breaking legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he remains stationary until a forward pass is thrown

(c) after losing legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he is forced behind the line of scrimmage by an opponent, at which time he is again subject to normal blocking restrictions for an ineligible offensive player.
Note: If an ineligible offensive player moves beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent, an eligible offensive player may catch a pass between them and the line of scrimmage.

Thank you! As it happens, I found a clip, and ... it's TOTALLY a penalty. He was running free downfield (3 yards) before the pass left Allen's hands. Check it out. Glad it wasn't called!

 

https://www.espn.co.uk/video/clip?id=32807881

Edited December 7, 2021 by dave mcbride

[Freddie's Dead]

It's an RPO, so the refs have to give some leeway.  I saw this a lot over the past two weeks of The Ford Report.

2 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

It very much does matter. As long as an O-linemen engages with the defender within 1 yard of the LOS they are allowed to push them downfield as far as they want. 

 

I can't really tell from these computer generated dots if Williams engages the defender within 1 yard. 

 

NFL rulebook below (emphasis added):

 

ECTION 3 - INELIGIBLE PLAYER DOWNFIELD

ARTICLE 1. LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS

On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.

Item 1. Legally Downfield. An ineligible player is not illegally downfield if, after initiating contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage during his initial charge:

(a) he moves more than one yard beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent

(b) after breaking legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he remains stationary until a forward pass is thrown

(c) after losing legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he is forced behind the line of scrimmage by an opponent, at which time he is again subject to normal blocking restrictions for an ineligible offensive player.
Note: If an ineligible offensive player moves beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent, an eligible offensive player may catch a pass between them and the line of scrimmage.

 

Don't confuse me with the rules!

[Ethan in Cleveland]

3 hours ago, benderbender said:

From the 35 second mark to the 38 second of the replay, Phillips does not let go of Knox. I despise rules not being applied uniformly. We did plenty to lose the game up until that point. And who knows, we still might not have scored. But you know NE gets that call on the other end of the field. 

It depends when Allen is out of the pocket. Once he is out of the pocket they can mug the WR

[Big Turk]

Well if we are playing this game, the Pats also lucked out on their long TD run since it included a hold and an illegal block in the back.

 

Refs aren't going to call everything.

 

[UConn James]

Quote

On that sack Williams gave up, Sanders was open for a big play:

He may have been open, but how often does he actually make a catch? He’s a step below Brown’s production and reliability, even by last year. Signing Sanders only delays Greg Davis’s development. 
 

They say Sanders is great 🔥 in practice. Too bad he comes up small in the games either with drops or not being fast enough, or as last night a couple of times, not even putting his arms out to attempt the catch.

[dave mcbride]

On 12/7/2021 at 2:06 PM, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

It very much does matter. As long as an O-linemen engages with the defender within 1 yard of the LOS they are allowed to push them downfield as far as they want. 

 

I can't really tell from these computer generated dots if Williams engages the defender within 1 yard. 

 

NFL rulebook below (emphasis added):

 

ECTION 3 - INELIGIBLE PLAYER DOWNFIELD

ARTICLE 1. LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS

On a scrimmage play during which a legal forward pass is thrown, an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, is not permitted to move more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass has been thrown.

Item 1. Legally Downfield. An ineligible player is not illegally downfield if, after initiating contact with an opponent within one yard of the line of scrimmage during his initial charge:

(a) he moves more than one yard beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent

(b) after breaking legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he remains stationary until a forward pass is thrown

(c) after losing legal contact with an opponent more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage, he is forced behind the line of scrimmage by an opponent, at which time he is again subject to normal blocking restrictions for an ineligible offensive player.
Note: If an ineligible offensive player moves beyond the line while legally blocking or being blocked by an opponent, an eligible offensive player may catch a pass between them and the line of scrimmage.

Well, it looks like Belichick must have informed the refs about Williams’ illegal blocking downfield beforehand! He was called for the same penalty — almost identical — that wasn’t called in the first pats-bills game! It was definitely a penalty both times and a dumb play.

[Bermuda Triangle]

Weird - certain posters here only seem to criticize the refs when a call goes in favor of the Bills. 

[dave mcbride]

29 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Weird - certain posters here only seem to criticize the refs when a call goes in favor of the Bills. 

Not me. That said, I’m not a homer and try to be as fair-minded as possible. It’s actually interesting — Williams clearly got away with a call in the earlier game, but this time it was called despite being one of those fouls that’s “mixed up in the scrum”, as it were. The refs were looking for it — and probably because someone alerted them to it.

Edited December 26, 2021 by dave mcbride

[atlbillsfan1975]

On 12/7/2021 at 2:15 PM, Billl said:

If you want to convince yourself that the officials cheated you out of the game, that’s your right.  No objective observer is going to agree, though.  Vinovich and his crew are the best in the NFL.  They called a good game, but if either team got the benefit more than the other, it was the Bills.

How did you enjoy the game today?

[Scott7975]

I honestly don't understand this thread.  Is it what I think it is?  Is it some guy that spent time to dig up a play to show "the Bills got away with one" against the Pats in a game they lost?  Whats the point?  Who does that?  Maybe Im just misunderstanding which is quite possible.

[atlbillsfan1975]

5 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I honestly don't understand this thread.  Is it what I think it is?  Is it some guy that spent time to dig up a play to show "the Bills got away with one" against the Pats in a game they lost?  Whats the point?  Who does that?  Maybe Im just misunderstanding which is quite possible.

Some closet Pats fan or some Bills fan who likes to say, “ See! I was right, my team stinks.”. 

[Billl]

1 hour ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

How did you enjoy the game today?

Loved it.  Patriots lost, Chargers lost, Chiefs won.  If SF hadn’t pooped the bed against the Titans, it would be a perfect weekend.