Lil Dirty - Benched (update - He’s back and better than ever)

[The Frankish Reich]

3 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

He has been careless with the football for most of his career.  Probably shows up in practice too.  Maybe he has small hands.

He fumbled 6 (!) times in his rookie year with the Broncos, which is the main reason they cut him.

The KO return fumble was his sole fumble this year. I'd say the evidence is that he's corrected the problem and that the KO return thing was just a weird wet field phenomenon.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

He has been careless with the football for most of his career.  Probably shows up in practice too.  Maybe he has small hands.

 

I understand that muffs are not necessarily counted as fumbles, but as far as what he's scored, McKenzie is scored with one fumble in his last 3 seasons with Buffalo - the one last Sunday.  And he had one muff - earlier this season.

 

My understanding is he won the KR/PR job by showing surer hands than Breida or Stevenson in practice and preseason this summer.

 

He did have major fumbling problems his rookie season that cost him his job with Denver and let us pick him up, and he lost the PR job to Micah Hyde after we claimed him.

 

I think there's an element of "let a man get a reputation for rising early" with McKenzie's ball security issues, but we'll see I guess.

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So players are allowed to develop.  McKenzie has developed since his rookie year.

 

Basically, this season his "numerous other muffs" are the horrible fumble in the Colts game, which deservedly saw him benched today,

and

a muff against the Dolphins

 

McDermott has stressed that he wants to see the punt end with the ball in our guy's hands, so I'm not sure you can put that on McKenzie and not coaching.

He was 6th in Y/R on kickoffs and 8th in Y/R on punts before this week, so I don't think he can be misjudging punts as often as you think.

 

Stevenson had a muff today.

Joe B made it a point yesterday as well the Mckenzie's struggles had more to do than just in game muffs or fumbles. Said he really has had issues with ball security in practices as well. I am not good at inserting tweets but it's there on Joe's Twitter. 

 

He also said that the ball security issues were so worrysome to the coaching staff that they have lost confidence in him to handle the ball on offense as well. Unless injury happens or a whole string of issues from Stevenson losing the ball I believe we have seen the last of McK in a Bills uni.

Edited November 26, 2021 by No Place To Hyde

[Einstein]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I understand that muffs are not necessarily counted as fumbles, but as far as what he's scored, McKenzie is scored with one fumble in his last 3 seasons with Buffalo - the one last Sunday.  And he had one muff - earlier this season.

 

 

I realize that pre-season is discounted because the wins and losses don’t count, but he had another muff in the pre-season. That’s 3.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think there's an element of "let a man get a reputation for rising early" with McKenzie's ball security issues, but we'll see I guess.

That's a good point. His reputation precedes him. As opposed to, say, "sure handed" Andre Roberts, who fumbled 3X last year.

There's also the fact that Breida's emergence makes McKenzie's role as a speed threat on offense a little less critical.

[LyndonvilleBill]

I am a Lil Dirty fan. Yes, his fumble was not good (even I was pissed off at him), but I think the coaches just made an easy choice with little to no impact on the actual team. Takes no balls to make these changes. Moss out Breida in. Wanted him to get some snaps anyways. Moss wasn't doing jack $h*t anyways. No brainer easy choice.  Mckensie out, Stevenson in another low-impact decision. Need to get Stevenson some playing time after his return from IR. 

[hemma]

3 minutes ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Joe B made it a point yesterday as well the Mckenzie's struggles had more to do than just in game muffs or fumbles. Said he really has had issues with ball security in practices as well. I am not good at inserting tweets but it's there on Joe's Twitter. 

 

He also said that the ball security issues were so worrysome to the coaching staff that they have lost confidence in him …

 

Dropping balls in practice was probably the nail in the coffin.

Not many Coaches will close their eyes to that kind of problem.

[The Frankish Reich]

Question: I haven't tried to compile the stats, but I assume Belichick's old pal Ernie Adams and his team did, which is why they'd use their star slot receiver (Welker/Edelman) to return punts (not kickoffs). And I think it's a fair assumption that they found that sure-handed guys who were actually in the game provided sufficient value to outweigh the slightly added injury risk, and that their ability to use their judgment (fair catch, let it bounce, return it) and to make positive yardage when they decided to return it outweighed their lesser ability (as opposed to a McKenzie type) to take a return all the way for a TD.

So .. Cole Beasley, punt returner? Not saying it's the right choice, but I'm guessing that if he were on the Pats that's a job he'd have. Why haven't other teams done this?

[JohnNord]

I like McKenzie but Bills fans who were crying about him being de-activated are being overly dramatic.   It’s funny how people pretended it was a “scapegoat” decision by McDermott.  It wasn’t - they elected to play the better returner.  
 

I don’t know why but McKenzie hasn’t been very involved on offense this season.  I think his route running was much better last season and was expecting him to be a bigger role on offense.    
 

But given that McKenzie has had issues in 2 of the last 3 games as well as issues early in his career, I get it.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, SCBills said:

If you believe that Vicious Sid guy on Twitter..  seemed to have called Stevenson getting his chance while quietly ramping up these past few weeks.  

He’s been ramping up in the sense of working with trainers on sideline, but if he’s actually been practicing with the offense on special plays I don’t think that’s allowed while on IR

[Gugny]

42 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I like McKenzie but Bills fans who were crying about him being de-activated are being overly dramatic.   It’s funny how people pretended it was a “scapegoat” decision by McDermott.  It wasn’t - they elected to play the better returner.  
 

I don’t know why but McKenzie hasn’t been very involved on offense this season.  I think his route running was much better last season and was expecting him to be a bigger role on offense.    
 

But given that McKenzie has had issues in 2 of the last 3 games as well as issues early in his career, I get it.

 

McKenzie is 5th in the NFL for averaged KO return yards (24.91); and 8th in the NFL for Punt return yards (8.71).

[BananaB]

Steveson is gonna slowly start getting work with the offense, there is more upside with him. I was surprised he was activated so quick and on a short week. I don’t think this was because of a fumbles,  probably the original plan that just got stalled when Stevenson was put on IR

[The Frankish Reich]

6 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Steveson is gonna slowly start getting work with the offense, there is more upside with him. I was surprised he was activated so quick and on a short week. I don’t think this was because of a fumbles,  probably the original plan that just got stalled when Stevenson was put on IR

This makes the most sense. And it fits with McKenzie's weird comment about his season being over (unless another WR goes down). I also have the feeling McD is still peeved about McKenzie's stupid tweeting earlier this year. You are not Aaron Rodgers, Isaiah ... marginal players should know when it's best to just keep quiet and play.

[BrainwashedBillsFan]

I mean how many chances is he gonna get to muff punts and trip over his own feet. Coaches have to make a change. It’s what had to be done. 

[The Frankish Reich]

11 minutes ago, BrainwashedBillsFan said:

I mean how many chances is he gonna get to muff punts and trip over his own feet. 

Apparently one of each.

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

He’s been ramping up in the sense of working with trainers on sideline, but if he’s actually been practicing with the offense on special plays I don’t think that’s allowed while on IR

That Viscous Sid guy always guesses and pretends to be an insider 

[YoloinOhio]

McKenzie played CB for us a couple years ago… that might be his ticket back  out of the doghouse 😭

[thenorthremembers]

One guy is a draft pick with three cheap years left on his contract after this year.  The other guy is an impending free agent who has struggled with ball security.   They are going to mix Stevenson in to see if he can be the guy next year because they are up against the cap and would rather not have to resign the other guy.  

[LyndonvilleBill]

14 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

One guy is a draft pick with three cheap years left on his contract after this year.  The other guy is an impending free agent who has struggled with ball security.   They are going to mix Stevenson in to see if he can be the guy next year because they are up against the cap and would rather not have to resign the other guy.  

How much is Mckensie's contract versus Stevenson's? I'm all for seeing what he's got, just question whether a rookie is better than a vet that knows the system at this point.

[Iverwig]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

McKenzie is 5th in the NFL for averaged KO return yards (24.91); and 8th in the NFL for Punt return yards (8.71).

It’s funny how some come up with  things out of their emotions while completely ignoring the stats. 

[Gugny]

32 minutes ago, Iverwig said:

It’s funny how some come up with  things out of their emotions while completely ignoring the stats. 

 

It's just in some people's DNA.  I recall many wanting Andre Roberts gone in the offseason following him being - literally - the best returner in the NFL.  It's crazy.

[thenorthremembers]

1 hour ago, LyndonvilleBill said:

How much is Mckensie's contract versus Stevenson's? I'm all for seeing what he's got, just question whether a rookie is better than a vet that knows the system at this point.

Think youre talking 200k less if Mckenzie signs for the Vet minimum again.  Not sure he would do that.   

[BrainwashedBillsFan]

7 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Apparently one of each.

He’s muffed more than 1 punt in his day. I like the guy but he’s visibly shook back there returning. Time for our draft pick to get the nod, he most likely can’t do any worse, the kid look decent yesterday 

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

It's just in some people's DNA.  I recall many wanting Andre Roberts gone in the offseason following him being - literally - the best returner in the NFL.  It's crazy.

How’s roberts doing this year? Oh yeah that’s right…

[ChasBB]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:01 PM, Apocalypse Nuts said:

When he fumbled that last kick return after falling down when nobody touched him, I said to myself that was likely his last game as a Bill.  McD don't play around with fumbles and McKenzie can't seem to stop.

If true, this is an over-reaction by McD.  McKenzie has made some big plays - not a ton, but a solid contributor.  He stumbled trying to set himself up for a better lane on the kick return and was unfortunate in losing the ball on when tripping himself up and hitting the ground.  It's not like he's a turnover machine.  It was an unfortunate and untimely fumble, but to bench the guy over it seems over-the-top.  That's just my opinion - I suppose McD knows what he's doing.

[Apocalypse Nuts]

8 minutes ago, ChasBB said:

If true, this is an over-reaction by McD.  McKenzie has made some big plays - not a ton, but a solid contributor.  He stumbled trying to set himself up for a better lane on the kick return and was unfortunate in losing the ball on when tripping himself up and hitting the ground.  It's not like he's a turnover machine.  It was an unfortunate and untimely fumble, but to bench the guy over it seems over-the-top.  That's just my opinion - I suppose McD knows what he's doing.

But he is a turnover machine.  Haven’t you been paying attention?  He fumbles or muffs a punt/kick on a fairly regular basis.  He has terrible hands.  It would absolutely not be an overreaction to send him packing.  He’s flashed impressive stuff from time to time but he’s too much of a liability.  A big reason no other team signed him last offseason.  They brought him back cheap.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Apocalypse Nuts

[ChasBB]

5 minutes ago, Apocalypse Nuts said:

But he is a turnover machine.  Haven’t you been paying attention?  He fumbles or muffs a punt/kick on a fairly regular basis.  He has terrible hands.  It would absolutely not be an overreaction to send him packing.  He’s flashed impressive stuff from time to time but he’s too much of a liability.  A big reason no other team signed him last offseason?  They brought him back cheap.

According to https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/fumbles-lost, Mckenzie has had only one lost fumble this season.  I agree, he's mishandled some punts, but cannot call him a "turnover machine" based on one lost fumble all season long.  He also brings versatility to the offense, too.  Anyhow, I do think the Bills will be just fine without him, too.  I suppose a message needs to be sent - just saying I don't think the guy is a bum, either.

[Apocalypse Nuts]

15 minutes ago, ChasBB said:

According to https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/player-stat/fumbles-lost, Mckenzie has had only one lost fumble this season.  I agree, he's mishandled some punts, but cannot call him a "turnover machine" based on one lost fumble all season long.  He also brings versatility to the offense, too.  Anyhow, I do think the Bills will be just fine without him, too.  I suppose a message needs to be sent - just saying I don't think the guy is a bum, either.

That’s really splitting hairs I think.  So he has recovered some of his drops so they aren’t listed as turnovers.  You just cannot have a returner with crappy hands.  Clearly he does.

[ShakAttack]

Hell, Stevenson muffed one too yesterday, but was fortunate to recover. It’s honestly 50/50 when that happens though, but you’ll only get punished when the other team recovers it 😂 

[Marv's Neighbor]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:00 PM, MJS said:

Out for the season? Why would he say that?

Too many Daiquiris?

[foreboding]

None of us know what's happening in practices.  He might be fumbling regularly and then after the last couple gametime bumbles, McD decided it was enough. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by foreboding

[ChasBB]

10 hours ago, foreboding said:

None of us know what's happening in practices.  He might be fumbling regularly and then after the last couple gametime bumbles, McD decided it was enough. 

Maybe the NFL book-makers got to him    - just kidding (I hope)

 

[YoloinOhio]

11 hours ago, Marv's Neighbor said:

Too many Daiquiris?

He’s so small he probably got tilted on a white claw

[Cheektowaga Chad]

The answer could he very simple why McKenzie got benched

 

The coaches think Stevenson is better. It was the first game he was available to play and he instantly got the call to play

[Gugny]

13 hours ago, BrainwashedBillsFan said:

How’s roberts doing this year? Oh yeah that’s right…

 

He led the NFL in yards/KO return in 2020, which was my point.

[LyndonvilleBill]

14 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

The answer could he very simple why McKenzie got benched

 

The coaches think Stevenson is better. It was the first game he was available to play and he instantly got the call to play

Nah. I'd rather believe he was the plan all along, but with being a rookie and the injury it just delayed it.🙄. I'll go into my fantasy world and say Daboll is missing Lil Dirty in his offense. They had to see if Stevenson was ready, gave Mckensie a week off (and a b*tch slap) to get ready to play more offensive snaps.😁. Yes, I am a big, Lil Dirty fan and I can dream.😉

[billybob71]

to be honest Stevenson made me just as nervous back there

[Success]

I liked how Stevenson played - I know he muffed one, but overall, he made good cuts & seemed like a tough runner.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 11/26/2021 at 8:24 PM, Apocalypse Nuts said:

But he is a turnover machine.  Haven’t you been paying attention?  He fumbles or muffs a punt/kick on a fairly regular basis.  He has terrible hands.  It would absolutely not be an overreaction to send him packing.  He’s flashed impressive stuff from time to time but he’s too much of a liability.  A big reason no other team signed him last offseason.  They brought him back cheap.

 

McKenzie hasn't been returning kicks or punts on regular basis in 2019 and 2020.

 

How many has he fumbled or muffed this season?

How many did Stevenson muff in this past game?

[Gugny]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:24 PM, Apocalypse Nuts said:

But he is a turnover machine.  Haven’t you been paying attention?  He fumbles or muffs a punt/kick on a fairly regular basis.  He has terrible hands.  It would absolutely not be an overreaction to send him packing.  He’s flashed impressive stuff from time to time but he’s too much of a liability.  A big reason no other team signed him last offseason.  They brought him back cheap.

 

For being so terrible, it's shocking that he's #5 in the NFL for average yards per KO return.

 

Or ... perhaps he's not terrible at all ... nor is he a liability.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 11/26/2021 at 8:55 PM, Apocalypse Nuts said:

That’s really splitting hairs I think.  So he has recovered some of his drops so they aren’t listed as turnovers.  You just cannot have a returner with crappy hands.  Clearly he does.

 

Pro-football-reference lists fumbles whether or not they are recovered.

Muffs are listed as muffs (but not necessarily fumbles) whether or not they are recovered

 

McKenzie has one fumble and one muff on the season.  If you believe he has more, show your work

 

I don't have a problem with McDermott benching lil' Dirty and giving Stevenson a shot.  I thought that fumble was egregious and we can't have that. 

 

On the other hand, I think McKenzie deserves his propers for his play as a returner this season, and he hasn't shown me "crappy hands".  Again, if that's what you see, I'm willing to be corrected, but Tell - which games, which quarter, etc etc.