report- Empire State Development downtown stadium proposal

[SirAndrew]

Just now, boater said:

The team would gladly move downtown if NY contributed enough to make it cost neutral to staying in OP.

 

I'll eat my shorts if Albany contributed the billion+ needed to make a downtown stadium feasible. We aren't the Yankees or the Mets.

That’s fair, I just disagree the Bills WANT OP. They only want it because it’s cost effective. 

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

So the rich get richer? It should absolutely be about the small business owners which are getting devastated during covid 

 

Fat cats don't need their wallets lined any bigger

 

Also Buffalo's a savvy drinking town.. we tailgate hard so we don't have to pay $10 beer at the Ralph... They'll be a select crowd that will bar hop downtown 

 

But the vast majority will be buying 12 packs from Wegmans pounding them at home or in their cars, and going to the stadium ... Not spending $12 a drink at a Downtown bar

Yes, the rich do get richer. Especially if the state is contributing a large sum. Those are the people who have a say in political decisions. The guy who owns a private lot in OP doesn’t have much say. 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

That’s fair, I just disagree the Bills WANT OP. They only want it because it’s cost effective. 

Yes, the rich do get richer. Especially if the state is contributing a large sum. Those are the people who have a say in political decisions. The guy who owns a private lot in OP doesn’t have much say. 

No but like I said it's not going to do much for the bar economy either because we're smart drinkers 

 

It's a select crowd in Buffalo that party downtown... Buffalonians will absolutely get drunk at home and go to the game rather than bar hop downtown before the game 

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

No but like I said it's not going to do much for the bar economy either because we're smart drinkers 

 

It's a select crowd in Buffalo that party downtown... Buffalonians will absolutely get drunk at home and go to the game rather than bar hop downtown before the game 

 

 

 

Just say "CHEAP."

7 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

That’s fair, I just disagree the Bills WANT OP. They only want it because it’s cost effective. 

Yes, the rich do get richer. Especially if the state is contributing a large sum. Those are the people who have a say in political decisions. The guy who owns a private lot in OP doesn’t have much say. 

 

Ever wonder why UB is in Amherst? One of Nelson Rockefeller's major donors owned that land. 

[SirAndrew]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

No but like I said it's not going to do much for the bar economy either because we're smart drinkers 

 

It's a select crowd in Buffalo that party downtown... Buffalonians will absolutely get drunk at home and go to the game rather than bar hop downtown before the game 

 

 

I agree with you, but any money spent on drinking downtown is more than they’re making with the stadium in OP. Business people care about that extra penny, and I believe some of them could be a factor in the state’s plans. 

[mjd1001]

10 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

No but like I said it's not going to do much for the bar economy either because we're smart drinkers 

 

It's a select crowd in Buffalo that party downtown... Buffalonians will absolutely get drunk at home and go to the game rather than bar hop downtown before the game 

 

 

The thing is I think you are looking at the CURRENT crowd that attends Bills games. You know what you get with a new stadium, no matter where it is built?  More expensive tickets, sometimes MUCH more expensive tickets that price out some people and those people are replaced in the stands with people with more money.  You also get the 'something new' thing to do that gives further incentive for the same thing.  Here's an example...

 

-I had season tickets in my 20's for about a decade. I gave them up a while ago and don't go to games anymore. A New stadium..especially one in Downtown? I'm likely...if not to get season tickets...to at least want to go to a few games and I'll pay top dollar for them.  I have a very close relative who makes well into the 6 figures who also gave up season tickets, but he said with a new stadium, PREFERABLY downtown, he's likely back in for the 'novelty' of it and he'll pay triple or more to do so compared to what he paid in the past. 

 

And its not just Buffalo, look at when new stadiums were opened in the past (I was living in Boston when the pats stadium opened about 20 years ago).  Not all of them, but a good number of the younger tailgate-and-drink crowd gets replaced. They get replaced with high income earners, mostly in their 40s and 50s and 60s....many that don't tailgate, and they want to go to that bar or restaurant to eat before or after the game.

 

I think if a stadium was built downown, and ticket prices go up considerably, you will see a full stadium at the games.  Just that a large number of the current 'tailgate' crowd will be replaced by older people with higher incomes that aren't tailgaters, but go to the game for more of an 'upscale' experience. Smart/cheap drinkers are replaced by ones that are willing to spend more money.

Edited October 8, 2021 by mjd1001

[Mat68]

3 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I agree with you, but any money spent on drinking downtown is more than they’re making with the stadium in OP. Business people care about that extra penny, and I believe some of them could be a factor in the state’s plans. 

I agree.  Benefits the state to put the stadiun down town and possible dome.  It benefits the Bills to keep it in Orchard park. 

[SoCal Deek]

15 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

Yes, the rich do get richer. Especially if the state is contributing a large sum. Those are the people who have a say in political decisions. The guy who owns a private lot in OP doesn’t have much say. 

And in your version of the world you should be allowed to bring your own food to a restaurant? 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

The thing is I think you are looking at the CURRENT crowd that attends Bills games. You know what you get with a new stadium, no matter where it is built?  More expensive tickets, sometimes MUCH more expensive tickets that price out some people and those people are replaced in the stands with people with more money.  You also get the 'something new' thing to do that gives further incentive for the same thing.  Here's an example...

 

-I had season tickets in my 20's for about a decade. I gave them up a while ago and don't go to games anymore. A New stadium..especially one in Downtown? I'm likely...if not to get season tickets...to at least want to go to a few games and I'll pay top dollar for them.  I have a very close relative who makes well into the 6 figures who also gave up season tickets, but he said with a new stadium, PREFERABLY downtown, he's likely back in for the 'novelty' of it and he'll pay triple or more to do so compared to what he paid in the past. 

 

And its not just Buffalo, look at when new stadiums were opened in the past (I was living in Boston when the pats stadium opened about 20 years ago).  Not all of them, but a good number of the younger tailgate-and-drink crowd gets replaced. They get replaced with high income earners, mostly in their 40s and 50s and 60s....many that don't tailgate, and they want to go to that bar or restaurant to eat before or after the game.

 

I think if a stadium was built downown, and ticket prices go up considerably, you will see a full stadium at the games.  Just that a large number of the current 'tailgate' crowd will be replaced by older people with higher incomes that aren't tailgaters, but go to the game for more of an 'upscale' experience. Smart/cheap drinkers are replaced by ones that are willing to spend more money.

It's still not going to price out that many people.. maybe the cheapest people who are in the nosebleeds

 

There's one thing people in Buffalo pay for.. to watch the Bills play especially when they're good

 

The majority of people in the city are still working class.. and they fill up the majority of the stadium and they're going to fill up the majority of the new one

 

It's not going to be 80% Canadians and buffalo millionaires 

 

I just want a new stadium.. go bills baby

Edited October 8, 2021 by Buffalo716

[Einstein]

20 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Yes the bridge has sidewalks, on both sides. And I can see them making the bridge pedestrian-only on game days if it helps move people. Don't forget there's a bridge at Ohio Street too. I could see Ganson Street becoming Tailgate Central downtown.

 

Look at this photo and tell me there's no place to tailgate.

 

You’re talking about maybe HALF the amount of tailgating space. And to get to half, you have to spread out. Close to a mile away.

 

Im assuming the city isn’t going to allow fans to tear up the park.

[PromoTheRobot]

4 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

I agree.  Benefits the state to put the stadiun down town and possible dome.  It benefits the Bills to keep it in Orchard park. 

 

How?

[SirAndrew]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

And in your version of the world you should be allowed to bring your own food to a restaurant? 

What in the world does that have to do with my belief that the politically connected have input into where a stadium goes? 

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, Einstein said:

 

You’re talking about maybe HALF the amount of tailgating space. And to get to half, you have to spread out. Close to a mile away.

 

Im assuming the city isn’t going to allow fans to tear up the park.

 

Not everyone will choose to tailgate. Not everyone tailgates now.  When all there is is parking lots, you park. I stopped tailgating because it's b-o-r-i-n-g. I don't want to get drunk and overeat in the morning anymore.

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, SirAndrew said:

What in the world does that have to do with my belief that the politically connected have input into where a stadium goes? 

Who do you think has say? Neither the Bills nor the State owe you a parking lot where you can bring your own food and camp out for hours. The NFL is a business. It’s a balancing act relationship with the fan base for sure, but too many people on here think the Team owes them something. It doesn’t. 

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Not everyone will choose to tailgate. Not everyone tailgates now.  When all there is is parking lots, you park. I stopped tailgating because it's b-o-r-i-n-g. I don't want to get drunk and overeat in the morning anymore.

 

Ahh, so that’s why you like the downtown stadium. I suppose that’s fair. If I didn’t appreciate tailgating, I would be open to a downtown stadium too. I’m just on the opposite fence. I really appreciate the uniqueness of what we have.

 

A few years ago a Boston writer tweeted about how the drive to the Bills stadium is unlike any other in the NFL because the team has to go through thousands of Bills fans to get to the tunnel.

 

We would lose that downtown. Unless the team decided to take the bus a mile away through Ganison just for the heck of it lol.

[boater]

9 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Just say "CHEAP."

 

Ever wonder why UB is in Amherst? One of Nelson Rockefeller's major donors owned that land. 

Additionally, Rockefeller was a tremendous racist and wanted UB in the suburbs to isolate it.

 

He also oversaw a design of the Robert Moses Parkway that couldn't accommodate Greyhound buses, for the same reason.

[SirAndrew]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Who do you think has say? Neither the Bills nor the State owe you a parking lot where you can bring your own food and camp out for hours. The NFL is a business. It’s a balancing act relationship with the fan base for sure, but too many people on here think the Team owes them something. It doesn’t. 

At what point did I say anyone owes me anything? I encourage you to re read my previous posts on this topic. I’m saying that a downtown location would make sense from the prospective of large business owners. I never said anything about what the team should do for the sake of the fans. I’m very confused by how you made that assumption. Did my statement “the rich get richer” upset you? Regardless of political affiliations, it’s simply a truth that decisions follow the money. That’s the world, it’s never a statement on the fan getting a raw deal. That’s a different discussion. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by SirAndrew

[boater]

16 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Just that a large number of the current 'tailgate' crowd will be replaced by older people with higher incomes that aren't tailgaters

Too bad Buffalo is an economic wasteland and there's about 4 of these people with higher incomes of which you speak.

 

My roofer can't afford downtown, but he can afford OP.

[SirAndrew]

7 minutes ago, boater said:

Too bad Buffalo is an economic wasteland and there's about 4 of these people with higher incomes of which you speak.

 

My roofer can't afford downtown, but he can afford OP.

You’re correct, Buffalo doesn’t have the wealth of many big cities, but I encourage anyone who’s curious to look at a list of the top employers in WNY. WNY isn’t just a city of blue collar workers anymore. Buffalo has one of the poorest inner cities in the country. Those stats drag down the rest of the area. People from the East Side already aren’t attending games for the most part, because they can’t afford it. There’s plenty of well paid folks in the suburbs. I’m not claiming Buffalo can support anything too high end, but the city of workers with ripped jeans and hard hats is a bit of a myth at this point. 

[Draconator]

1 minute ago, SirAndrew said:

You’re correct, Buffalo doesn’t have the wealth of many big cities, but I encourage anyone who’s curious to look at a list of the top employers in WNY. WNY isn’t just a city of blue collar workers anymore. Buffalo has one of the poorest inner cities in the country. Those stats drag down the rest of the area. People from the East Side already aren’t attending games for the most part, because they can’t afford it. There’s plenty of well paid folks in the suburbs. I’m not claiming Buffalo can support anything too high end, but the city of workers with ripped jeans and hard hats is a bit of a myth at this point. 

Isn't healthcare the largest employment base in Erie County now? 

[SirAndrew]

Just now, Draconator said:

Isn't healthcare the largest employment base in Erie County now? 

Yep, healthcare and education employ substantially more people than anything else in WNY. I’m not claiming that WNY is rich. I’m just saying the blue collar thing is almost folklore at this point. I know some people who live in working class Buffalo city neighborhoods, but most people live in the burbs. Many of those areas would be considered quite fancy by rural and city folk. 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Ahh, so that’s why you like the downtown stadium. I suppose that’s fair. If I didn’t appreciate tailgating, I would be open to a downtown stadium too. I’m just on the opposite fence. I really appreciate the uniqueness of what we have.

 

A few years ago a Boston writer tweeted about how the drive to the Bills stadium is unlike any other in the NFL because the team has to go through thousands of Bills fans to get to the tunnel.

 

We would lose that downtown. Unless the team decided to take the bus a mile away through Ganison just for the heck of it lol.

 

I've been to two games this year: Steelers and Texans. Both games I saw a parade of people so drunk they had to be held up by their friends. And this is before the game. It's not funny anymore. It's sad. Is this the tradition we're trying to preserve?

 

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, boater said:

Too bad Buffalo is an economic wasteland and there's about 4 of these people with higher incomes of which you speak.

 

My roofer can't afford downtown, but he can afford OP.

As for your roofer, that is exactly my point. The new stadium will not be for people like him...it is for the professionals making well into the 6 figures.

 

You haven't spent much time in Amherst, or looking at who is buying the hundreds of new houses put in in Lancaster lately?  Sure, were are not loaded with people whos net worth is over $100 million dollars....but in terms of people making 6 figures....I think there are more than you believe there are in the metro Buffalo and Rochester area.

Edited October 8, 2021 by mjd1001

[Einstein]

25 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I've been to two games this year: Steelers and Texans. Both games I saw a parade of people so drunk they had to be held up by their friends. And this is before the game. It's not funny anymore. It's sad. Is this the tradition we're trying to preserve?

 

 

No. But there are thousands of others who do it responsibly.

[boater]

51 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

As for your roofer, that is exactly my point. The new stadium will not be for people like him...it is for the professionals making well into the 6 figures.

 

You haven't spent much time in Amherst, or looking at who is buying the hundreds of new houses put in in Lancaster lately?  Sure, were are not loaded with people whos net worth is over $100 million dollars....but in terms of people making 6 figures....I think there are more than you believe there are in the metro Buffalo and Rochester area.

And that day, my friend, will be when I lose a bit of enthusiasm for the Bills. I remember being a scruffy 20 year old scraping enough together to buy a ticket, park the car and tailgate. I went to Dickies Donuts down the road after. Life was the balls and you didn't have to be a 6-figure.

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, boater said:

And that day, my friend, will be when I lose a bit of enthusiasm for the Bills. I remember being a scruffy 20 year old scraping enough together to buy a ticket, park the car and tailgate. I went to Dickies Donuts down the road after. Life was the balls and you didn't have to be a 6-figure.

Huh? There seem to be more than a few people on here that harbor significant rage against financially successful people. I’m not sure why. No matter how much money I’ve made in my lifetime I’ve NEVER carried any grudge against those more well off. I’ve never even given it a second thought. Here’s a life lesson: Be content in your current circumstance. There'll always be others that are more well healed than you. Good for them! 

[SirAndrew]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

As for your roofer, that is exactly my point. The new stadium will not be for people like him...it is for the professionals making well into the 6 figures.

 

You haven't spent much time in Amherst, or looking at who is buying the hundreds of new houses put in in Lancaster lately?  Sure, were are not loaded with people whos net worth is over $100 million dollars....but in terms of people making 6 figures....I think there are more than you believe there are in the metro Buffalo and Rochester area.

I couldn’t agree more. I don’t want to get into economic politics, because people get too feisty about that, but I’m willing to state the reality. Many metro areas, including Buffalo, have entire suburbs where you need that type of income to afford most homes. You have some middle income people like cops, nurses, and school teachers, but when you belong to that group it seems like everyone else makes significantly more or way less these days. The NFL wants to target that new house in Lancaster crowd. They know the other side of the income spectrum has no disposable income. It’s becoming more of an all or nothing economy. The only issue with the 100K new house crowd is that many are cash poor with mortgages and college debt. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by SirAndrew

[Governor]

23 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

People spending money at the stadium and local businesses? Ever been to a Ravens game? You have tailgating but you also have restaurants hosting pregame parties. Not everyone wants to grill and chug beer.

Agree. I’d rather hang out in a cool bar pre-game, then just walk across the street and go in like some of the others.

8 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I couldn’t agree more. I don’t want to get into economic politics, because people get too feisty about that, but I’m willing to state the reality. Many metro areas, including Buffalo, have entire suburbs where you need that type of income to afford most homes. You have some middle income people like cops, nurses, and school teachers, but when you belong to that group it seems like everyone else makes significantly more or way less these days. The NFL wants to target that new house in Lancaster crowd. They know the other side of the income spectrum has no disposable income. It’s becoming more of an all or nothing economy. The only issue with the 100K new house crowd is that many are cash poor with mortgages and college debt. 

True but there’s usually 2 incomes per household. 100k is probably on the low end these days for home owners.

[Rochesterfan]

8 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Downtown Buffalo is already developed and being developed.. it's not the east side

 

There are already tons of mom and pop shops and Bodegas downtown .. I was in downtown Pittsburgh yesterday.. downtown Buffalo has way more going on

 

And new stadiums have already been shown to not help the local economy... You never get back what you put in

 

It will never pay for itself, but you get a lot more potentially out of it downtown than in OP.

 

OP bring you zero income outside of the game.  Downtown brings significantly more places and people to spend money on what is already present.

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

7 hours ago, boater said:

Okie dokey. If NY wants to dictate the location, then NY foots the majority of the stadium cost. It works no other way.

 

The major financier gets their choice of location.

 

I guarantee: The Bills are not financing a stadium in a location against their wishes. They want Orchard Park.

 

I'm sure the Bills would accept a downtown stadium, as long as they aren't the wallet being pick-pocketed.

 

Two things -

 

1) I am not sure the owners really want OP over downtown - I believe based upon the proposed costs that they felt Downtown was going to be more expensive than they were willing to deal with.

 

2.) NYS and the county are going to foot the majority of the bill either way.  If the state can use infrastructure funds to help with the cost of infrastructure around the stadium - then it becomes an input of federal, state, and local money - mixing with private funds from the NFL and the Pegula’s.

 

We will see, but I think they would be ecstatic if the county and state came through to fund a downtown stadium.

 

 

 

[BuffaloRebound]

1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Two things -

 

1) I am not sure the owners really want OP over downtown - I believe based upon the proposed costs that they felt Downtown was going to be more expensive than they were willing to deal with.

 

2.) NYS and the county are going to foot the majority of the bill either way.  If the state can use infrastructure funds to help with the cost of infrastructure around the stadium - then it becomes an input of federal, state, and local money - mixing with private funds from the NFL and the Pegula’s.

 

We will see, but I think they would be ecstatic if the county and state came through to fund a downtown stadium.

 

 

 

Good post.  If pegulas say Orchard Park, then NYS says downtown, there will be a heckuva lot less hemming and hawing about how much pegulas are benefitting from a downtown stadium.  

[Buffalo716]

19 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

It will never pay for itself, but you get a lot more potentially out of it downtown than in OP.

 

OP bring you zero income outside of the game.  Downtown brings significantly more places and people to spend money on what is already present.

 

 

I've never said I'm against a downtown stadium

 

But if the cost is significantly more than an orchard Park I don't want the taxpayers hit over the head 

 

And they already have the infrastructure in orchard Park which is not in place downtown..  they can literally build in a lot while the current stadium is being played in

 

I was in downtown Pittsburgh the other day.. and I'll tell you what.. it was dead.. all mom and pop shops were gone..  downtown Buffalo has had a slow proper revitalization over the last 20 years

 

Tons of boutiques and Mom and Pop shops...  The city's been on up and up

 

I just want the bills to stay in Buffalo forever

 

 

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

6 hours ago, Mat68 said:

I agree.  Benefits the state to put the stadiun down town and possible dome.  It benefits the Bills to keep it in Orchard park. 

 

Totally disagree - I think keeping it in OP benefits the Bills the least.  The absolute worst thing for the Bills stadium is pre-game tailgating.  People eat their own food and drink their own drinks - giving no money to the team and having them spend less in the stadium.

 

People park in private lots taking money from the parking funds.

 

The best thing would be to build something downtown and have many local breweries and pubs partnering up and having better and more food and drink choices associated with the stadium both inside and out.

Some people have said the Bills fans are smart - others said cheap - the truth is they have had the tailgating and private lots since the stadium opened and that cuts a significant portion of revenue that other teams generate.  
 

I expect that even if the stadium is finally built in OP - there will be changes created that limit people parking in private lots by including parking in ticket packages.  I would also expect them to change hours to limit tailgating and drinking in the lots before and after - to drive more internal sales.

 

I think the entire game day experience changes with a new stadium - no matter where it is built.

 

[purple haze]

19 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

2014: Same study by same company looking at exactly the same site.

If that’s the case what’s the point of doing it again?  Would circumstances have changed that much?   Seems like a waste of money.   

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

16 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

It's a given something OP will get you nothing back.

nonsense! Someone was paid good money to point across the street!

What are the odds that 50 years after they decided the best option was that location in Orchard Park the best option is across the street?

[SoCal Deek]

I still believe the Amherst location makes a lot of sense for so many reasons. But in the end I don’t think it makes all that much difference really. Wherever it goes it’ll become the NEW home of the Buffalo Bills…just like OP did fifty years ago. Nobody thought that made much sense, and was actually a huge compromise solution in the early 70’s, and now fast forward to these threads and you find people who’d sooner die than give up the current location. It’s all relative through the prism of time.

[Doc]

43 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I still believe the Amherst location makes a lot of sense for so many reasons. But in the end I don’t think it makes all that much difference really. Wherever it goes it’ll become the NEW home of the Buffalo Bills…just like OP did fifty years ago. Nobody thought that made much sense, and was actually a huge compromise solution in the early 70’s, and now fast forward to these threads and you find people who’d sooner die than give up the current location. It’s all relative through the prism of time.

Putting it in Amherst would mean they wouldn’t have to build two separate stadiums for the Bills and Bulls, saving taxpayers a lot of money. And that could allow them to build a bigger and/or better and/or roofed stadium.

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

Putting it in Amherst would mean they wouldn’t have to build two separate stadiums for the Bills and Bulls, saving taxpayers a lot of money. And that could allow them to build a bigger and/or better and/or roofed stadium.

Exactly 

And just as important it gives the STATE not the CITY or COUNTY a convenient excuse/reason to help with substantial funding. 

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Exactly 

And just as important it gives the STATE not the CITY or COUNTY a convenient excuse/reason to help with substantial funding. 

Yup. 

[BillStime]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:17 PM, Beast said:

 

OK, so what about that will make the gamday experience better?

 

A Bills WIN!

 

 

[BillStime]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:54 PM, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Pretty big statement top make with no data to back it up!   Sure not everyone wants to go to a restaurant, but a good number may if they had the choice especially in December when snowing or raining real hard.  Today they don't have the option so no way of knowing.

 

Actually one could argue, do people tailgate at Sabres games?  Or do they go to restaurants?  If so that proves that's what people really want.  Does this really prove anything, no!  But is a nice way to use some data to back a preconceived conclusion. 

 

Agreed. Went to the Bills - Steelers Sunday Night Football game in Pittsburgh in2019 - tailgated for an hour and then went into the Casino right next door to the casino to warm up before the game because it was butttttt@#$ cold that night.  WIN-WIN